Cali,<BR>I've read The Four Agreements twice now and am now reading The Mastery of Love. I like the principles of the first book but find it very difficult to apply those agreements to my situation with H and OW. <P>Do you apply them to your WS and if so, how has it affected your relationship? Your feelings re A? Anything/everything else?<P>I've just started the 2nd book. How has reading it helped you? Please, if you could reply I'd really appreciate it. I'm looking, right now, for every 'tool' possible to help me cope and get thru this. Fighting myself to not give up yet wanting to at every turn.<P>Thanks,<P>MS

I can't post much now...but wanted to respond to you as quickly as possible to start...<P>The Four Agreements are about me...and so is the Mastery of Love...if my H chooses to come along for the ride, so much the better...but regardless...as with the Harleys' stuff...the changes are about YOU.<P>Be Impeccable in My Word...(no LoveBusters...no speaking out against myself...using my Word for good...)<P>Don't make any Assumptions...(not assuming I know how my H feels or that he knows what I feel or think...not being 'afraid' to say what is true and important...being 'radically honest.')<P>Don't take anything Personally...(what my H does IS NOT about me...it is all about him...I can't control him...I can only control me...What he does or says can only hurt me, if I allow it to.)<P>Do My Best Always...(my best will change everyday dependent upon conditions, illness, state of mind...but that I DO my best always implies that I don't TRY...but that I take correct action...)<P>More later...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

I've also started reading the Four Agreements (and next, The Mastery of Love). I thought I would get through it on the plane, but I only got through the 1st agreement and then had to think about it for a while. <P>Small book, lot's of personal relevance.<P>My take on what this is good for? (Remember, I'm a beginner too) It's about finding YOUR PLACE in the world as an independent being. You define yourself internally, as opposed to letting others (or society) do it for you.<P>It seems that the agreements will help you detach from being manipulated by external forces -- like the WS. If you can get detached then you will no longer be pummelled emotionally by the WS's actions.<P>So, the Four Agreements are really about how stuff affects YOU. I guess you also realize (as part of being impeccable) that the same applies in the other direction. That you need to give up attempting to manipulate others (eg. your WS).<P>There seems to be an element of this (detachment) in the true purpose of Plan A. But how do you do it (detach)???? I guess it has to be like a mantra, whenever things are affecting you, pull out the agreements and go over them again and again. Maybe it eventually sinks in.<BR> <BR>The part that I'm having trouble with is that marriage is special. It is not two individuals trying to protect themselves from each other. I think that is the gift you give to your spouse -- the power to hurt you. They show their love by not using that power and vice-versa. <P>Of course, that applies to a "healthy" marriage. <P>I know that for much of my marriage I didn't give my W the power to hurt me by keeping apart from her emotionally (ie. little openess and honesty). This had the effect of slowly chipping away at our connection to each other (and our marriage). I'm not doing a good job changing this aspect of myself. The thing is, I can't believe that this kind of detachment is really a goal of the Four Agreements. Need to think a lot longer about this. <P>BTW, I realized that part of being impeccable is about being honest with yourself. I'm owning up to my limitations. I do no one any favors by taking on more tasks than I can do. Today I came clean about the status of a project I've been avoiding for a long time. Hopefully we can regroup and approach it with a realistic plan (not one where I do ALL the work).<P>I'm starting to clear out the clutter of all the unwanted mitote in my life! (Just had to get a couple of tiny stories in here.)<BR>[to non-Agreement readers: mitote = all those dreams/ideas/thoughts/expectations/rules that act on you, internally. Actually referred to as the "fog we live in" in the book.]<P>--Jeffers<P><BR>

That's it Jeffers! The knowledge that we were all domesticated to live in our own fog...which is a reflection of what we 'believe' others think or feel about us...it is not getting down to the bottom of who we REALLY are...it is 'allowing' others to control our actions and reactions as we try to 'control' others actions and reactions...<P>Keeping the agreements--understanding the mastery of transformation, second attention and love---are the keys to blowing away your mitote--your own fogdream--and being personally free--<P>You don't apply it to others...you apply it to you...then you share it with others...<P>I have gone back to school and people are asking..."What happened? You are glowing. Are you and H doing that well?" When I answer no...that I read stuff that changed my life, they are skeptical...my H is skeptical...How can a couple of books change you so quickly?<P>--because I want to change.<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali,<BR>Thanks for replying. I'm sorry it's taken me a while to get back to this post. I do understand that the agreements are for changing yourself. My question should've been how have you applied them to yourself in regards to your H and how has that changed your take on the status of relationship? Or something to that effect. In any case, you answered my questions and am trying to follow your lead. <P>How do you not make assumptions and not take anything personally? My H doesn't volunteer anything re our M and currently his actions are confusing me to no end. What this is doing to our children alone makes it hard not to take personally. Any tips or suggestions?<P>jeffers,<BR>Thanks for your take on this. You're most definitely right...this does have to become a mantra of sorts. I will be posting sticky notes every where. Right now I tend to remember them mostly after the fact.<P>Another good book is "Who Moved My Cheese?" by Spencer Johnson. Simple yet powerful.<P>Thanks again to both of you.<P>MS

I loved "Who Moved My Cheese?" We have been using at my school to remind us how hard change is...<P>Change is sloooooooooow, painful and incremental...it will get worse (or seem like it) before it gets better.<P>I am not always successful in using my new agreements...just look at my posts over the last two weeks as I struggled with issues with my H...<P>But like, Jeffers I keep the agreements in front of me...and the fourth one is key...do your best always...but your best is different on different days dependent upon circumstance...don't beat yourself up...recognize your deficiencies and move on...the only failure is the failure to learn...<P>I also bought the companion book which gives you questions to focus on and journal about...to help you change and keep the new agreements...<P>See each day as a new beginning,<BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali, and Mad Season (since I'm hijacking your thread) and Jeffers..I have those two books ordered, but from Cali's description, realized I kinda learned some of this just from avoiding LB.<P>Jeffers, the paragraph you wrote....<BR>"I know that for much of my marriage I didn't give my W the power to hurt me by keeping apart from her emotionally (ie. little openess and honesty). This had the effect of slowly chipping away at our connection to each other (and our marriage). I'm not doing a good job changing this aspect of myself."<P>... this described my pre A behavior exactly, and like you I'm not real confident about changing. I have made good changes, but they seem very fragile at times. Any ideas?<BR>T<P>

Cali, I'm sorry you've been struggling...I have read some of your posts in the past few days. My heart goes out to you and I admire your perseverence and strength. <P>I'm searching high and low for a way to cope. Was diagnosed with major depression today and started anti-d's. I don't want to give up on my M yet but each day gets harder and harder, emotionally. Most days I think, if it would just be over with I could pick up the pieces. I don't know that it's truly over on his part either (even tho' H is living w/ OW)so it's hard to go on as if.<P>Change is slow and at this point in my life, extremely painful...probably why I find myself on anti-d's now. <P>Still trying but my best(in everything) just seems so pathetic anymore.<P>Twyla, you haven't 'hijacked' my thread at all. Maybe you'll get more out of the books when reading them because of it. Good luck.

Twyla...I'm so glad you joined us...I hope more do...but with all things you learn what you are supposed when you are supposed to...we can't hurry it up...<P>Change is hard.....slooooooooooooooooow, painful and incremental...the only way to change is to DO IT...baby steps, as Orchid and others say...<P>I started with opening up to H...asking the really hard questions...but there are more really hard questions to ask...<P>I recognized what was destructive about my behaviors and they were the first to go...the smaller things...those more about me are harder...<P>Then there's giving up control...for that I use prayer...lots and lots of prayer...that's why I like these books...they do have a spiritual base...<P>Then there's the question...what's the alterntive to you NOT changing?<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali and Mad Season: Interesting. I was going to comment on the "do your best" agreement and you both brought this up. <P>There seems to be so much potential for abuse of this one. <P>My "best" has been pretty terrible for the last couple of months. Is that o.k. (because it truly is my best right now) or, would I be using that as an excuse to continue to slack off? If I don't let other's judgements influence me ("not taking things personally") then I can be happy doing nothing.<P>I guess honesty is REAL important here. I KNOW I'm not doing my best right now. Time to change!!! One thing at a time. No more empty promises -- this may mean very few promises for a while.<P>--Jeffers<P>

Twyla,<P>LOL. These kinds of questions often send me off on enourmous thinking excursions. I'll try to make this response short.<P>Your choice of the word fragile is perfect. That's what I feel like right now. Are the tiny changes I made going to vanish because I don't feel threatened anymore (by the A)? I worry about that. I'm travelling now so it's hard to keep in touch with W, so I worry even more (drat these timezones).<P>I'm a scientist, and scientists don't do relationships, we do science. At least that's the set of agreements I bought into 20 yrs ago. Relationships are distracting and waste time and energy better spent on important matters. Besides W knew that going in, right? A mentor of mine actually told me something like this right in front of W.<P>It was only a few years ago that I realized that I actually liked being married for it's own sake and to my W specifically -that I really LOVED HER. Since then I actually began to give her plain old affection. Hugs, touching, kissing, flowers, cards: all the time. I got rejected a lot. <P>Probably for that reason I've had more difficulty with verbal communication, where the rejection potential is even greater. Although, I've never had a problem saying "I love you" because it seemed to lose its emotional impact with so much repetition.<P>Lately, I've been trying to say "I love you" verbally in different ways. Telling her something I like about her, for instance.<P>I'm still dodging the big things, though. Which is to really converse with her. "Open-ended/nonplanned/who knows where it might lead" discussions. This is what I KNOW she needs from me (it's the kind of thing she had online with OM).<P>She doesn't reject my physical affection any more so I SHOULDN'T still be in fear of verbal rejection. <P>I'm thinking of making a list of "stuff" that I need to tell her and doing it one thing at a time (baby steps). She was reading my posts at one time, but I don't think she does anymore. She could learn a lot of "stuff" quickly that way. I sort of think that lets me off the hook too easily because she really needs the conversing part of it. Of course, it's easy to say this.....<P>Were there any suggestions in there? Believe it or not, that was really short!<P>--Jeffers<P><BR>