Edited just in case....at least for now.<P> Thanks.<p>[This message has been edited by jdmac1 (edited September 11, 2001).]

((((((((jd))))))))<P>I'm sorry you had another d-day. I know you are devastated.<P>You are probably getting this in the morning, so you have slept on it. take a deep breath and assess the situation in the morning. it may be time for Plan B. Your fight was an LB, which I don't blame you a bit for. i know you were upset. but something needs to change for sure.... lets talk about it on Tuesday... tell us how you are in the morning.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

Dear jdmac1,<P>Please try not to let your fears grip you to the point of dread or peril. I'm so sorry this is happening. At least you are getting to the truth, finally. I'm sure you must feel relieved and shocked both at the same time. *sigh*<P>Consider yourself hugged. I'm so, so sorry. I'm so sorry that your W felt she couldn't be totally honest with you. I'm so sorry you have had all your hopes and dreams shattered. I'm so sorry that you have to deal with all these mixed emotions and spying and confusion and betrayal.<P>But please, please consider this: God knew all this would be happening to you before you knew. None of this is taking Him by surprise. He sees and knows your way out so you DO NOT have to figure anything out. Stop trying to figure out everything and just trust Him from one moment to the next.<P>Sweet sleep is a promise to you from heaven. Stop your brain and give all your dreams to God from this point forward. He'll figure out everything for you. You probably cannot hear God's voice because it's a still, small voice and your mind is screaming and won't shut up!!! BE STILL and know that He is God. You have to get quiet long enough to hear and know that He has not left you stranded in the middle of this storm.<P>Jesus has bequeathed His peace to us but remember He also told us to STOP allowing ourselves to be agitated and upset and worried ("Let not your heart be troubled neither let it be afraid")... That is our responsibility. He would not have asked us to do something we cannot do. He gave His peace to us and it surpasses human reasoning. It belongs to you. Receive it. Accept it.<P>Everything is going to be okay. I still think that you can proceed with the knowledge you have gained without love busting. Your W seems afraid of you by the way she begged her friend not to tell. Maybe she is not afraid of you, but more afraid of your reaction, so by all means take the calm, quiet approach so that you can hear God's voice speaking.<P>My heartfelt prayers and apologies on your wife's behalf are with you. Hang in there, buddy!

Faith1, (D)<P> Thanks....Well I got about two hours sleep....I still am at a loss, to explain what happened. And, a loss for words. Thx for the hugs.<P> <BR> BtDt,<P> Interesting that you should say that I should feel both relieved and shocked. I think there may be some relief after the initial shock wore off. <P> Thx for the hugs. <P> My W has never been affraid of me before and I have NEVER given her reason to be affraid of me...Well, with the possible exception of when I beat up our bedroom door. <P> Wife came in this morning before she left for work. I was asleep, but felt her sit on the edge of the bed. She proceeded to play with my wedding ring, while thinking I was asleep. I opened my eyes and pulled her down and kissed her. I am telling you this only to say that so far I have not LBed over this. Keeping it to myself. Waiting.....for what I don't know. For it to sink in I guess. All the same I am proud of myself for not LBing.<P> Gonna try and get some more sleep.<P> jd<p>[This message has been edited by jdmac1 (edited September 11, 2001).]

J<P>I don't think "spy Tactics" are wrong...you have a right to know if someone is manipulating your life.<P>You are making "life" decisions based on the "truth". If W can not admit the truth & get out of the fog on her own you have a "right" to know.<P>I too have been waiting for the 2nd D-Day. Why can't they stop being such selfish cowards & tell all from the start. They have no idea of the "torture".<P>Are you going to let her know what you know ?<BR>I am so sorry. {{{{jdmac}}}}<P><BR>Lisa

jdmac, I had a friend that had a year-long affair with OM, when OM broke up with her, she was so devastated to lose both the men she loved in her life that she ran to yet a third OM for comfort. She saw the act of sex as someone "loving" her and she needed to feel loved at the time. <P>This 2nd D-day may not be as big a deal as you make it out to be. Until your W is ready to tell you about it, and all the details and reasons behind it - don't assume anything. <P>I would recommend editing your post eventually to remove this information, especially if you ever hope your W will come to MB to read your posts.<P>It was very important that this friend give you this information, but your W did entrust this friend and ask that she not tell you. One day, when she is ready to accept it, she needs to know that her friend did this to help save her marriage. However, on the off chance that she may just come here and read BEFORE she is ready, you may have just ruined a very important friendship for her...<P>Just keep that in mind. I am not saying lie, but I fear the time is not right. Your W is not ready for you to know this information, she needs to be ready to tell you, so you can heal... (it doesn't mean you don't prompt and ask questions, but give her time to tell you on her own)<P>I am so sorry you have to go through this pain again. Just know that you do not have all the facts yet, and because of such, you are doing the right thing in not discussing it or LBing about it. Both these OM's happened around the same time, that is a GOOD thing. It means she was totally confused at that time (which you already knew).<P>Think of it this way, it's not like she had an affair with OM, it ended, then she had yet ANOTHER affair with OM at a DIFFERENT time in her life. This all happened around the same time. That means she is not a serial cheater, that is why I say it is a good thing. <P>Not that any of it is really good. I guess it's better to say "not as bad". LOL<P>Hang in there. <BR>HbH

Dear Jdmac1,<P>I am so sorry. Does it help to know that others have traveled this path? If so, please read on. If not, just ignore this post.<P>On September 14, 2000, during our first MC session, my H admitted a PA with a young business acquaintance. In the days that followed he told me who she was, how long it lasted, the general outline. He told me it was over and that the A was not our problem, I was. He told me he was not in love with me, that our marriage was a mistake, that he felt like my roomate, that he just wanted someone he could cherish, that he just wanted to f*** 20-year-olds, that he just wanted to be happy, blah, blah, blah.<P>With our MC's help, I began addressing my own MLC issues (we are both 42), and so did he in individual sessions. Things seemed to improve until December.<P>I did not know at the time, but December 2000 is when he attempted to renew his EA/PA with his 26-year-old employee. You see, when he told me the "truth" in September, he sort of combined the stories of his 2 affairs into one. I now know that he had a one-night stand with the business acquaintance (just a conquest affair). However, he had a very strong emotional attachment to OW#2. Because he combined the stories and they were in some respects contradictory, it made no sense. I therefore obsessed, attempting to try to understand something that could not be understood.<P>In December 2000, he was apparently jealous that OW#2 had begun dating other guys. At that time, she told him she wanted only a "professional" relationship. However, she continued to be his "friend" and encouraged him to divorce me, as she divorced her H after her EA/PA with my H. <P>Their EA likely began about 2 years ago and turned into a PA during the spring of 2000 after the OW and her H separated. My opinion is that the one-night stand with OW#1 made it easier to move to a PA with OW#2. He had already broken his vows and was already convinced our marriage was dead.<P>Apparently, sometime in August 2000, the OW told my H she would not be number 2 and he ran. She asked him if she should wait for him and he told her not to. However, he has admitted that his "secret" plan was to get me into counseling, make me strong enough to make it on my own and then divorce me for her. Although he didn't want to marry her, he wanted a "committed relationship". She continued, in his eyes, to lead him on.<P>In March 2001, he moved out to "find himself". He has admitted that moving out was his signal to her that he was ready to divorce me. She told him that she had just been trying to be his friend and that she was now "involved". He told me that if she had been willing, he would have chosen her, it would not have worked out and he would have begged me to take him back. <P>He moved back into our home about 3 weeks later. Although I suspected something was up with OW#2, I was unaware of any of this at the time it was going on. I was only aware that my "gut" told me something was up. He told me the story of OW#2 on April 24, 2001. Around the same time, I found this site.<P>The story of OW#2 came out in little bits. When he moved out, we had an agreement that we would not see other people and would continue to work on our marriage. I asked him if he would be telling people at work that we were separating. He said no. I told him I was concerned about OW# 2 in light of the fact she was young, I knew he liked her and she was now single. He said if she approached him, he would refuse. WOW, and I believed him.<P>A week later, we had lunch just before he was to leave on a long weekend trip with our children to another city. The whole point was that H was to plan the trip and get the kids ready (usually my job). At lunch, when I asked about the plans, where they were staying, how he found the hotel, etc., he said: "Now, don't freak out, but OW#2 helped me with the reservations and plans."<P>I became physically ill. I "knew", but was in denial. He had allowed her to take my place. He had disclosed that we were separated after saying he would not only a week before.<P>A few weeks later, he disclosed that he now felt uncomfortable working with OW#2, because he had disclosed too much personal and business information to her. He was afraid it would be unfair to fire her for that reason. I told him I trusted his judgment, that he would do the right thing. He thanked me for my confidence.<P>A few weeks later he told me that he needed me to understand how important it was to have OW#2 out of his life. He told me he was obsessed with her. When I asked him if he was in love with her he said: "Yes, no, maybe, I don't know." He told me he had attempted to involve her in a PA and she had turned him down.<P>A few days later, I wrote him a letter, telling him that I suspected that his relationship with her was much more than he had disclosed, that I suspected that our separation had something to do with her and that it was safe for him to tell me the truth. I told him that I loved him, and that if he really wanted her out of his life, I would help him.<P>When she rejected him in March, he told her he wanted her out of his life - i.e. find another job. She told him that it would take 60 to 90 days to find another job. However, she was over paid and he continued to pursue her. Therefore, she was not exactly motivated to move on.<P>Because of the very real possibility that she might file a lawsuit and if she did, he would lose his business, I with his full support, met her for lunch in early May. I provided her with very good job leads, told her I did not blame her for the part she had played in the destruction of our marriaged, explained to her how important it was to the recovery of our marriage that she find another job and offered her financial support while she devoted her full-time efforts to finding another job. I told her truthfully that my H was not crazy about supporting her while she looked for another job, but that I was more practical. I also told her that it was not a gift, I wanted something in return. She had to be out of my H's life.<P>She apologized, told me she had just been vunerable, didn't love herself at the time of the A and never loved my H. She told me she could not stand the sight of him and would be leaving as soon as she could. She also told me that my H and his brother were incompetent businessmen.<P>I truthfully reported this conversation to my H. I am sure it hurt him very much.<P>As soon as lunch was over, she called my H and told him that it was his obligation to support her, not his "psycho wife's". This little conversation also helped him "see".<P>Our relationship began to improve. However, I could feel it every time my H and OW were working together and becoming "comfortable" again. During late May, my H told his brother and business partner about his A. In early June, the 3 of us decided that my H should no longer have any contact with her - all contact would come through my brother-in-law.<P>It is, however, a small company. He saw her every day. He kept doing stupid things like sending her flirty emails and leaving messages asking her to "break the spell." <P>We began having honest conversations about her. I pointed out how she was "playing" him, and he was falling for it. He began to "see" that she wasn't so perfect after all.<P>I was in constant fear. By this time he gave me access to this voicemail at work and his cell phone. He began honestly telling me about any contact. By the middle of July, she was "confused" again. She had ended her relationship with the new guy and talked about maybe moving to Chicago or maybe trying to work it out with her ex-H, blah, blah, blah. I became terrified.<P>I dove head-long into a very major depression. I explained Plan B to my H and told him that in order to save my sanity, we just had to separate until he decided whether he wanted our marriage. I told him that if she filed suit and we lost everything, we could rebuild and that it was worth it to save our marriage. During this time he left her a message to the effect that he was afraid I was about to have a break down. He let me hear her response. She said: "Hi, its me. I need next Friday off for an interview. Hopefully, this will solve our little problem." I left her a message: "Hi, its me, but of course you probably don't recognize my voice. This is [H's] wife. I would like to talk to you about your inappropriate behavior with my H and our little problem. Call me not him." I also, in a rage, drove to her home with the intention of kicking her a**. Thankfully, she was not at home. My H told me that he saw this very stupid rage as me "fighting for him." Go figure.<P>The next week she told my H that the interview had not panned out, her ex-H had just called to inform her he had lost his job, something to the effect that my H could "kick a dog while its down", blah, blah, blah. I again told my H that I could not live this way, that she had had ample time to find another job and that he simply had to choose.<P>We both suspected that she would not file suit purely out of self interest. She just didn't want anyone to know about their little secret. <P>We both met with her on a Monday. She agreed to leave by the end of the week in exchange for a 2-month severance. On the next day, she met with my H and told him she wanted 6 months. On the next day, she met with my H and they agreed on 3 months. We drafted an agreement which included a release of all claims and a no-contact provision. She said she would sign it on Thursday. Then she said she wanted to think about it some more, meet with an attorney, blah, blah, blah.<P>She finally signed it the following Thursday and left the next day (August 3, 2001). She left my H a little note that said something like "I hope you're happy now."<P>Even after all of her stupid, crummy, manipulation and blackmail and the absolute h*** she put us through, I think my H still sometimes misses her. I think he continues to see her as someone who was just "confused".<P>God help me, but I hate that witch.<P>I tried and tried and tried to believe that people could recover with continued business contact. I don't know if my H is just especially weak or was just so attached to her that he could not help himself, but removing her from our lives was absolutely necessary.<P>For the first time, my H is actually working on our relationship. He now keeps his agreements, is considerate of my feelings and very loving. For the first time since this mess began, I have hope that we will recover.<P>I understand why it happened and the role I played. The thing I just can't get over is that she was, in no way, a better choice. I think that perhaps that is part of the reason he became so attached. She "needed" him - the older, handsome, successful business man, and he believed I didn't. I have recently learned that he resented my competence and success. He felt admired and respected by her. I just didn't know that he needed admiration so much.<P>The reasons for my H's choices had a great deal to do with his MLC and low-self esteem. The state of our marriage at the time was just one factor.<P>I admit, however, that it took him so long to tell the truth, in part, because I had not made it safe for him to tell me the truth. When the MC asked him if he had had an affair, he was frankly unprepared to answer. He had not yet decided what he really wanted. He was attempting to "leave the door open", preserve both choices, until he could decide, and did not tell me the truth until he had decided that he didn't want her. However, he needed my help to remove her from our lives. He needed me to draw that line. I am not sure that if I had drawn the line sooner, before he made the basic decision on his own, that it would not have been crossed.<P>I don't think you should assume that the reasons for your W's A have somehow changed simply because you now know more. Frankly, for me at least, knowledge was power.<P>I was relieved to know the truth, because things finally began making sense. I finally did not feel crazy.<P>That relief, however, has in no way dulled the pain. The most difficult thing I have ever had to do in my life was accept that he would have chosen her and that he cared so much about her at a time when he cared so little for me.<P>This is a very, very long road. We are only in the initial stages of recovery, and I have no idea what the future will bring. I just know that our marriage is still intact and that it appears, at the moment, that we will have the chance to heal together.<P>It was very important to eliminate LB's from my behavior and to demonstrate my unconditional love to my H. I was able to love, without expecting anything in return. I was also able to set him free - to make him responsible for his own choices and behavior. I believe that until he was free to decide for himself, he could not decide.<P>He has not yet said that he has recommitted to our marriage. However, his actions so far show me that he has.<P>Although this has been the most challenging and painful experience of my life, it has been worth the struggle. If our marriage survives, it will be a much better marriage, because we will both be better people and partners. If it doesn't, I will know that I have done everything that I can and will know that I have the strength to move on alone.<P>Does your wife feel safe telling you the truth? Are you ready to hear the truth without judgment or blame? Can you listen to her feelings without taking it personally? Can you wrap your heart, while listening, by saying to yourself over, and over - "It's not about me?" Can you listen and simply be her friend?<P>It is really, really tough to do. Every new disclosure is like a body blow. I believe that it is appropriate to show your S your pain. You just have to be careful not to show it with rage (although I blew that one a couple of times - the rage was against OW, not my H) and to provide understanding at the same time (i.e. to say, I am not blaming you or trying to make you feel guilty, it is just that I love you so much and this really hurts).<P>Good luck, Jdmac. My thoughts and prayers are with you. Let us know how it goes.<P>Julie<P>

jd:<P>OK, now you know. The initial shock has passed over you like a tidal wave. The question is: how do you handle it?<P>There is only one proper Harley/MB-based answer: honestly. Tell your wife that you know. That it need not eat her alive any more. (Rules of care and protection apply here.) Reaffirm that your goal is to rebuild the marriage into something far better than it was. To meet her needs.<P>Give her the opportunity to be honest (Rule of protection), no LBs, no recriminations for her coming forth, etc. The only way to get down the road to recovery in anything faster than a snail's pace requires that you both proceed with a minimum of baggage. MB Recovery is one airline that has no overhead bins or underseat storage for emotional hand-carried baggage. It must all be gate-checked.<P>Emotional Needs assessment is a big must here. You work at fulfilling hers. She works at fulfilling yours. You both live within the framework MB establishes: honesty, care, protection and time. Add a dash of counseling for you both and you have a recipe for recovery.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Julie:<P>Of course it is appropriate to show your spouse pain.<P>The key, however, is to do it in a non-LB way. Use of the "I" syntax instead of the "you" syntax is particularly effective. "I feel this way ..." or "I think that ..." It directs the finger inward instead of the "accusatory" outward, while still allowing you to express yourself honestly. But within the context of the rules of care and protection.<P>One step at a time, one day at a time. It appears he is out of the fog ... take his hand and lead his still-befuddled mind toward the path to recovery. You've both paid the toll for the road, might as well walk it, right? <smile> I hope he chooses to walk that road with you.<P>It won't be an easy journey, but I can say with certainty, that if both of you commit 100-percent to it, your marriage will end up being better than it was before. (Hard to believe, I know.) But I won't whitewash it: it is not easy, particularly at first ... however, it does get easier with every step down the path. One step at a time, one day at a time ... then you will look up one day (in the not-to-distant future) and be surprised how far you have come.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Dear STL,<P>Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. I posted to Twyla in Recovery seeking help in dealing with my current state of fear. I would provide the link but don't know how. I would love your thoughts.<P>My H just called to inform me about the World Trade Center and Pentagon (was was posting to Jdmac1 and did not have the TV on). My H is in Arizona on business. He was clearly shaken and upset and told me he loved me.<P>This tragedy sure puts my little problems into perspective. I am praying for us all.<P>Julie

Dear Jdmac1,<P>I agree with STL. It appears from the note that your W would be relieved to tell you the truth but is afraid of your reaction. Could you write her a letter telling her you are aware, that you love her, that you continue to want to recover your marriage and that you will be happy to discuss it with her, as her friend, when she is ready? <P>As I understand this, your W's friend did not disclose this information to you, you found it. It may be important to let your W know that her friend did not breach her confidence, but instead that you discovered this information on your own. This friend appears to be a friend of your marriage and it may be important to make sure that your W's relationship with this friend is not damaged.<P>I was posting to you when I learned about the unbelievable events of this morning. At the moment, my only hope is that my H makes it safely home.<P>Julie

Hi JD. I agree with Julie, as long as you can tell your wife AND preserve that friendship, that is good.<P>I just thought you were going to have to betray her friend in order to tell her, and that just seemed like a BAD idea...<P>HbH

Thanks all, <P> I will try to respond in greater detail later. As I too am watching the horror unfolding in our country.<P> I did want to say that if I tell W I know about the second(actually it was the first)A, I will not mention friend at all. I would not do that to friend. Before that would occur I would show W the Spy Software. <P> That would be difficult at best. I think disclosing that information would be the ultimate LBer for my W. <P> Thanks so much for posting to me. I will try to answer each person at a later time. I am too shook up by new d day and now this terrible evil that has happened to this country.<P> jd

Thanks Everyone,<P> Louser,<P> Well, I thought I believed that Spyware was ok. But now that I have actually caught something this big....I don't know. For now, I will not tell her I know. <P> HBH,<P> That's just it though, when I had d-day#1 W gave me all the supposed reasons why she felt she had no hope left for marriage. Right down to the minute, she said a certian event I failed to do caused her to seek comfort from OM. Turns out she had already had one A prior to that. So, how can I trust that whatever she tells me would be honest?(I know, safe harbour) <P> Friend did not give the information. I got it through Spy Software. <P> Thanks HBH...<P> NewWoman,<P> Yes, I think it makes your suggestions and opinions more knowledgeable in that you have been through similar situations. <P> I do not know that she does feel safe telling me these things. I try to make it so, but I don't even know if she is involved with either OM or yet a new #3 OM. I feel there is someone else but who knows. <P> I will continue to wrap my heart as you say. I will continue to keep this information to myself, for now. I will redouble my efforts to avoid LBing. <P> I know what you mean about the body blows. Real bad.<P> STL,<P> W would not fill out EN questionires<BR> <P>

jd,<P>I am so sorry to hear this. I know how much you were dreading this, And I can say I feel your pain. I also had to face d-day two today, kind of funny how we were discussing you the other day, and we both end up having the same malfunction within 24 hours, and all on this tragic day in our nation. I can say I will never forget today, with this news of what happened in our country and the news of my W's 3 other As she has had and finally told me of today. What a blow, and I found out only a couple of hours after the news of the terrorist attacks.<P>Hey, about your W's letter, It doesn't sound like she is still involved with OM, she may be still in contact with him but not involved in the A. So that seems like possible good news. Also be glad she didn't have 4 As . Let us know how your doing.

SEM,<P> Man! I know how you feel to brother. This SUCKS! I agree with your statement on R in KSes thread. WHY CAN'T THEY TELL ALL ON D-DAY.<P> Email me if you want, or let me know and i'll get on ICQ. Right now you and I can probably help each other a lot. <P> jd