Lexxxy,<BR>Read your post to Sad Sally...do you need to 'talk?'<P><BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Maybe.<P>One of the things that upset me the most about H's outburst yesterday was that he threatened OM's life.<P>Said that he's been thinking about that for a while. That if OM moves here, he's planning it.<P>What am I supposed to do with that?

Lexxxy,<P>My H is also an OM...OW's H was 'threatening' him...<P>Do you take him seriously? I couldn't tell if 'our' OW was using it as manipulation or, if her H was...<P><BR>OTOH...While I haven't physically threatened OW, I have threatened her reputation and her 'career.' I have 'friends' in high places in the school district in which we work and I could cause problems...<P>Because of my reading, I am beyond that now...I feel more secure about myself...not necessarily about my H...<P>I would say your H feels very insecure about himself and about you.<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

I take him seriously.<P>I think part of him saying it was to scare me. Part of it is a seriously thought out plan. Part of it is desperation because I told him yesterday that it was time for our marriage to be over. <P>He's making more and more demands that I'm not willing to commit to. So if he's not able to give me time and space, then I have to respect his boundries and get out. So I told him that was it.<P>I just don't know what to do about the threat.

Does he believe and utilize the Harleys' methods and use Marriage Builders?<P>Mthrrbard had an excellent post today for him to read...or he could post to us...<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/012480.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/012480.html</A> <P>Cali<p>[This message has been edited by JustPlainCali (edited September 12, 2001).]

yep....he's read everything.<P>We had one session with Steve Harley....working on our questionaires before we have our next one.<P>I feel like just forgetting all of it right now.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lexxxy (edited September 12, 2001).]

They tell the BS doing plan A that it must stop if there is abuse, threat to the kids, something like that. It sounds like you have to do a plan B for the WS, although as a BS it's hard to be saying that. A lot of thoughts might run through a BS's mind, but if he has thought about this enough to have even partially detailed plans, then it's a serious threat. Same thing would apply to a suicide threat. You're the best judge.<P>Also, if he's thinking that way about the OM then he's thinking that way about you, too. Or it's just a short step. So be careful.<P>He's not really in plan A if he said that. It's beyond LB, is my point.<P>- Tom

I believe this...and I live it now...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Originally posted by CaringAndLovingIndividual:<BR>Every relationship in your life can be healed, every relationship can be wonderful, but it's always going to begin with you. You need to have the courage to use the truth, to talk with yourself with the truth, to be completely honest with yourself. Perhaps you don't have to be honest with the whole world, but you can be honest with yourself. Perhaps you cannot control what is going to happen around you but you can control your own reactions. Those reactions are going to guide the dream of your life, your personal dream. It's your reactions that make you happy or unhappy.<BR>Your reactions are the key to having a wonderful life. If you can learn to control your own reactions, then you can change your routines, and change your life. <P>from "The Mastery of Love" by don Miguel Ruiz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Cali<P><BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

In order for recovery to take place, both of you have to commit to the principles...<P>You cannot just pay 'lip' service to it...you have to change your actions and reactions...<P>All of us have bad moments...bad days...I don't think you are getting to the heart of what is bothering your H...he is also not getting to the heart of it...<P>Harming another is a projection of his anger at himself...I'm sure he just wants the OM to disappear...I sometimes wish the OW would just evaporate....<P>Cali

Lexxxy and Lexxxy's H:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Four years ago my girlfriend's H decided he no longer wanted to be married...this sent her on what is now, for me, a familiar rollercoaster ride...I wish I had known then, what I know now...<P>He had, at the very least, an EA with a former girlfriend...they separated for about a year and a half. He returned to the home and neither one of them really did any 'changes'...I continued to hear the same complaints from her regarding her H.<P>Since June I tried to get her to read the Harleys' stuff...I explained plan A and B...I talked about Lovebusters, His Needs/Her Needs...<P>In August, she told me that he said he was moving out, again and wanted to continue divorce proceedings that had been started with the first separation...<P>As "luck?" would have it, the statute of limitations had one short month before the whole process would have had to be started again...so they QUICKLY got their paperwork back into the court system and it will be finalized in a week or two...<P>Today he called her and said that he now thought he had made a horrible mistake...was it too late to stop the D.<P>My girlfriend, who now feels relief from all the stress of is he or isn't he...does he or doesn't he...are we committed or not...told him..."See someone...get yourself together...figure out your head...then we'll talk..."<P>What is my point?<P>No matter how discouraged you are...no matter how far along in the process...the most important thing is that you are here...learning...that you are reading...that you are taking control of you...that you are finding your deep issues and dealing with them...<P>Make no hasty decisions about separation or divorce or even plan b...<P>God has a plan...trust...believe...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I><p>[This message has been edited by JustPlainCali (edited September 12, 2001).]

lexxy, I agree with tmmx, any death threats made, whether credible or not, are a very serious bussiness. And if credible, are reason to leave NOW. Also aggressive (as in belligerently) bs (or ws) are very questionable as marital partners, and oftentimes have very serious, deeply ingrained control issues that prevent them from being a good marital partner to anyone. IMO too often in human relationships of all kinds, angry people are tolerated and allowed to maintain their relationships, when they really should lose them. It is abuse plain and simple.<P>cali, no offense, it is a wonderful sentiment, but I do not believe at all every relationship in life can be healed. There are many many dysfunctional people in this world. A whole host of personality disorders, and it is no ones duty to try and heal them, and in most cases (according to psychologists) very few of them can be healed, and therefore neither can anyone in a relationship with them. In addition, I think 2 more or less normal people (no one is perfectly normal) who are fine by themselves, may not fit together and therefore not have a "nurturing" marital relationship. This does not need to be healed, it just needs to end. I think it is unfortunate we place enormous pressure on people to deny their own feelings, and "decide" to love whoever they happened to marry at one time, just cause they did. Many people do do just that, and many of them are not particularly happy in their marriages, they just exist. Then we say they have a bad attitude, instead of just recognizing they don't fit, and never will. Why are we so fixated on making people love a particular person? I wonder about this everyday. We wouldn't "make" someone marry someone, recognizing they may choose not too. But the second they are married, we "insist" they stay married, is so senseless. Why do we care if they fit the day before marriage, but we stop caring the day after? They are the same people, with the same issues. It is not unusual for people to marry and shortly thereafter realize they have made a huge mistake. But they continue on trying to make the best of it, till they just break down (psychologically) and cannot do it anymore. I do think one can get along with most anyone, but I think we need to fit the person we share our souls with, and wake up next to each day. It is a very special relationship, and needs a very special fit. One size does NOT fit all.

SnL...are we in visiting Egypt again...perhaps denial?<P>Psychologists will tell you that two reasonably normal people can 'love' each other...can fit...if they each decide to and commit...<P>There may be all kinds of psychological reasons why you have 'decided' not to...<P>Because <I>Whatever you think...you are right...If you think you don't fit...if you think you can fit...you are right.</I><P>Have you read Ruiz's books yet? Don't knock the sentiment until you've tried it...<P><I>and I have to add...did you rush into your decision to marry? Most people that discover it is a BIG MISTAKE have rushed into it OR the person they married have HIDDEN something from them...an abuse of some sort...one rarely discovers that it is a HUGE mistake, if one has been careful in making the decision...<P>In my case, my H and I were dating a year, living together for a year, then engaged a year...kind of a long time don't you think...for him now to say that "I convinced him to get married." Oh yeah, I sure twisted his arm...BTW, I am 5'2" and he is 6'4"...You can just bet on how 'intimidating' I am... </I><P>Man...you sure triggered something in me...I'll have to think on what...<P><BR>Cali<p>[This message has been edited by JustPlainCali (edited September 12, 2001).]

some would say I have a houseboat permanently floating on de nile, and my great great cousin twice removed on my granfathers side once dated (not my grandmother) someone whose uncle once was engaged to a woman whose great aunt was 1/16 egyptian....so yeah, I think I qualify as egyptian....you got a problem with that? huh? huh? Come on don't be shy.<P>cali...Man...you sure triggered something in me...I'll have to think on what...<P>snl...I seem to have chronic triggeritis, it is good I have renewable skin, or I'd a been hamburger long ago. I think part of what sets people off (not that you are) is that I challenge, (and I do it effectively) the most fundamental notions of what marriage really is (from a psychological standpoint). I don't do it to be annoying, but because I MUST figure this out or I am not going to be any good to anyone. I don't really want to jump off a bridge, but if I can't find my balance I may accidently stumble off.<P>cali..Psychologists will tell you that two reasonably normal people can 'love' each other...can fit...if they each decide to and commit...<P>snl...I disagree, vehemently. And the reasoning is circular and meaningless. To say anybody can fit, if they choose each other, and if they don't fit it is cause they didn't is kinda senseless. It doesn't deal with motivation, why should I just love anyone. Do you cali, think about every man you know, you really would want to be married to everyone of them if they are simply nice to you? You don't care about their personalities, how they think, how they conduct themselves? I meet hundreds of women a year, in their homes. There are very few of them I'd have any interst in, and quite a few I shudder to think of being married too. Nah cali, it makes a huge difference who you are married too. In fact your statement doesn't even make a gender difference, implying people can even find marital bonding with same sex, something I also think is impossible. I think people are a whole lot more complex than a simplistic statement about "decideing" to love allows. IMO one cannot decide to love, the decision is made for you, without your control, by forces we do not understand. However, I do think many people can and do choose to accomodate each other and call it love, with the usual results when someone feels they didn't get a good "deal".<P>cali...There may be all kinds of psychological reasons why you have 'decided' not to...<P>snl...Yes, there are reasons why people do not fit.<P>cali...Because Whatever you think...you are right...If you think you don't fit...if you think you can fit...you are right.<P>snl...????? And this differs from decideing to love how exactly? If one can decide to love, then one can decide not to love, and we are right back to where we started, what determines whether we decide to....or decide not to?<P>cali...Have you read Ruiz's books yet? Don't knock the sentiment until you've tried it...<P>snl...No I haven't, and as I said the sentiment is nice, it is the psychology that is a problem. I have been alive 51 years, and studying human behaviour has been my passion since a child, I know something about people, and one thing I do know is one cannot bond with just anyone. The psychologists know it too, everyone I have asked (including the harleys) when pushed hard, and not allowed to equivocate, will admit there is something more to love than simply decideing. That is a cognitive choice. But we have an emotional side too, one that cannot be "controlled", operates on other truths, and it must "decide" too. It can be wrong too, but IMO when your heart and your head both firmly agree on love, then you are much less likely to err. This rarely happens. So love is a crap shoot. Plus it apparently is pretty hard to find, so the majority of people are in fact not married to who they should be (psychologically speaking).<P>so ya feeling like a couple rounds of analytical philosophizing? But I gotta go to bed pretty soon.<BR>

Nope...don't really feel like going a couple of rounds w/ you...but....<P>I'm going to agree that NOT EVERYBODY fits...but if you made some kind of decision to marry someone...something about them 'fit' at one time.<P>I think if you spent the same amount of time with OW that you have with your W, you probably would be having doubts about her as well...it is called the ebb and flow of a mature relationship...<P>Some of us understand the ebb and flow of mature relationships and 'weather' them...some of us look at our lives...look at ourselves and become dissatisfied...dead, if you will...so we 'need' something to make us feel alive...and instead of fixing what is going on inside...we look to the external...it must be the relationship...so we 'change' people...<P>Look at those who are serial monogomists...each time the really think the person 'fits.' Then overtime...dissolutionment...<P>IT IS NOT THE RELATIONSHIP....it's the internal stuff that needs fixin'...<P>Cali

Hey, I have ebbed and flowed for 28 (23 married) years, including years of counselling, hundreds of efforts at problem resolution with w, seminars, books, dozens of letters pouring out my heart to her...when is enuf enuf cali? The only time...ONLY time she has ever really listened to me is now.... and she is not even listening very well now. I don't hate or dislike her or anything like that..... I am just wore out, tired, and will not live the rest of my life sad and lonely.<P>cali..I'm going to agree that NOT EVERYBODY fits...but if you made some kind of decision to marry someone...something about them 'fit' at one time.<P>snl...So? The point is not whether something worked, but whether the whole thing fits and works, makes the grade of oneflesh (a Biblical term I think means fits). <P>cali...I think if you spent the same amount of time with OW that you have with your W, you probably would be having doubts about her as well...it is called the ebb and flow of a mature relationship...<P>snl... *sigh* one can only speculate, and the default ws bs positions are not too hard to figure out, but I doubt it cali. This was not a fling, nor am I a fool, I looked at her very very hard, all the time. Nor do I believe in ebbs and flows, I think that is self-serving rationalization for folks unwilling to deal with the fact a given marriage is an accomodation, not in-love. I don't think people who are truly fitted and in-love ever doubt it...they may have some conflict, but they know they are safe with each other.<P>cali...Some of us understand the ebb and flow of mature relationships and 'weather' them...some of us look at our lives...look at ourselves and become dissatisfied...dead, if you will...so we 'need' something to make us feel alive...and instead of fixing what is going on inside...we look to the external...it must be the relationship...so we 'change' people...<P>snl...Mo offense, I know you are an analytical type too, and I respect that. I may be wrong, I know that too. But I think that is just more rationalization, if you really believe people don't fit, and may very well marry (given the poor skills we all have in mate selection) then that dissatisfaction is simply the emotional truth that you are married to the wrong person. But sure, people often enuf also look externally for quick fixes. I am not such a person, I am deeply introspective, and extremely loyal....keep in mind cali, I have been married 23 long hard faithful years, I don't give up easily, but I am not property either, and that is what I feel like, indeed it is what I am. I am here to feel a H slot, to complete the "picture". It is not that my w is malicious or mean, she just feels what she feels, we just don't fit, she just doesn't see me, or really have any idea who I am. Now we try one last time to see if that is true, I have to open up, make vulnerable places I protected long ago, and accept I am just pond scum, and maybe don't even know my own mind. So I do it, and yet folks (not saying you do) just keep pushing their agenda.... love is just a decision, just do it, marriage is supposed to be work, ws are just selfish jerks---can't possibly have any real feelings...blah blah blah. What about if I am just don't fit my w and she just doesn't fit me...what if that is the truth cali, nothing sinister, just 2 people who never should have married, why is that not one of the possibilities? People give lip service to oh yeah, maybe it is...but ya know what. I get little or no sense here (ask lexxy what she thinks too) that a focus on whether you should be married is considered a legitimate part of the process and an acceptable outcome...rather the focus is the ws has to be "fixed" and all will be well. <P>cali...Look at those who are serial monogomists...each time the really think the person 'fits.' Then overtime...dissolutionment...<P>snl...That speaks more to the lack of mate selection skills than it does the reality of fitting.<P>cali...IT IS NOT THE RELATIONSHIP....it's the internal stuff that needs fixin'...<P>snl...It is both, but I agree, you look inside, fix anything you don't like, look again at the relationship, and if it still don't work...what then?<P><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 13, 2001).]

When you and my H do as other WS's have done--as much internal stuff as I have been doing...when you get radically honest with yourself...AS I HAVE BEEN DOING....<P><B>When YOU REALLY ADMIT TO YOURSELF what is going on WITH YOU...</B><P>Then we'll talk...<P>'cause, it is not about the marriage...it is not about the relationship...it is not about the spouse...<P><B>IT IS ABOUT YOU...</B><P><I>and I have to add, what about "For BETTER OR For WORSE?" I hate to bring up marriage vows with you...but I am amazed that people take vows and then when it doesn't suit them anymore...say "Well I didn't really mean it...it goes against human nature." Gee...wonder why those particular words are included in <B>marital vows</B> anyway? </I><P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I><p>[This message has been edited by JustPlainCali (edited September 13, 2001).]

Heyyyy u 2......what about ME? lol

Sorry Lexxxy...<P>SnL and I have some history...we're sparring partners...his circular thinking drives me nuts!<P>How are you doing today? I have been thinking about you...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

It was getting interesting actually! <P>I tend to side more philosophically with SnL....but I really admire your passion and committment to your beliefs.<P>Even though my H was the right choice for me at one time in my life, I don't believe he remains the right choice thoughout my whole life. Many couples I think don't reach a point where they reconsider -- many just keep plodding along. (hmmmm -- the weathering? the mature relationship you speak of? perhaps contentment doesn't cause them to analyze?)<P>I did that for a long time too. Because there was no catalyst for me to re-think my decision. My A and his discovery certainly were. Now we DO have to think this through. <P>We have to make another choice. And the criteria that I used to make that choice the first time is completely completely completly different.<P>

<I>We have to make another choice. And the criteria that I used to make that choice the first time is completely completely completly different.</I><P>Can you clarify what you mean by this?<P>Cali<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>