This is a continuation of a topic started in another thread.<P>People have been talking about how much to reveal to their spouse. Some say every gory detail, some say pick and choose. Some INSIST that you must be an open book to your mate. Some say (ME) that you have a right to keep a part of yourself for you.<P>Reading through the rules and goals of MB I wonder how hard and fast these statements are. Not everyone has the same kind of happy marriage. Different people want different things from marriage in the first place. Some just want a companion, some people want a siamese twin! I have an aunt and uncle who spent 2 weeks out of every month in different cities. It works for them. If they spent more time together, they would probably drive each other nuts. So which offends you more: this unconventional arrangement or getting divorced if they tried to be "normal"?<P>When I got married, I did not want another shadow following me around or a mind reader. I just wanted someone to share a life with and do things with. That was what he wanted too. We wanted to be a couple but still feel like individuals with our own identities and not just Mr. & Mrs. _____. <P>As far as dealing with the affair, I think my knowing him and what he wants guides me in knowing how much to say. If I just start dumping out every little thing that comes into my head, that just wouldn't be me. I would be trying to be someone I've never been. Is that appropriate? I don't expect him to turn into a hopeless romantic (a trait that OM had and he doesn't). If he did tried to turn himself into what he thought I wanted, then H wouldn't be H. However there is a cue we can take from those traits. I can be more communicative than I was before and he can try to do something romantic on occasion.<P>I say that couples should base their goal on what works for them. A free-minded couple should continue to accept space and freedom; but remember where the pitfalls came before and avoid them. If a couple was always connected at the hip, then that is where they should aim. <P>To each his own. Right? Thoughts, ideas??

snobird,<P>My wife felt the same way as you do now. She felt that her A was privete and none of my buisness. She soon realized how devistated I was and that all the trust I had in her was completly gone. It was awful! When I started asking questions, I insisted on truthful answers if she wanted to stay married to me. She warned me that the truth would hurt but I didn't care, for some reason, I wanted to know just how bad it was so I could start over and try to pick up the pieces and rebuild. In no time at all it was painfuly clear to me that the answers to these questions were indeed painful and it got to the point that I didn't want to know any more! In fact I told her that I still had alot of unanswered questions but it wouldnt do me any good to ask. By going through all that, it helped me to regain trust in her again. She hated to tell me the truth about the A but the ugly answers that she gave me proved to me that she was being truthful and not making up lies. It took time for all the pain to heal but I must say that it was all worth it. Honesty is the way to go, it not only will pramote healing it will free you of guilt. Recovery is tuff, but I am here to say that it is possable and we are doing better than before.<P>SH

By the way, it feels good to know that my wife is now my best friend and she feels the same way. Being indipendent in our marriage is what got us into trouble in the first place.<P>SH<p>[This message has been edited by stillhurts (edited September 14, 2001).]

Snobird,<P>I have been following your posts. First of all, I really admire you for trying to rebuild your marriage with your husband. I understand that it does take a lot of courage to go back to an unfulfilling relationship after being in one that was wonderful.<P>One of the things you have said was that you are not prepared right now to reveal everything to your husband. After your comments about the OM, I am sure that it is difficult to want to be completely known by a man who has not been exactly what you want him to be. That is all right for now, but please try to remain open to the possibility that you may want him to know you completely later. Also, I applaud you for being willing to answer any of your H's questions, as they are asked. Please continue this practice. Some WS want all the details, but others do not want them. <P>You are correct that different people want different things from marriage. I have known lots of people who only want companionship and a stable home. The only problem is that, in some cases, one of the spouses develops a relationship with another person. As this new relationship develops, the WS begins to experience a truly intimate relationship. When someone experiences a really fulfilling relationship, it feels so good that it is really hard to ever want to return to the old one. <P>It is my opinion that you and your husband have not learned to become the primary source of each other's happiness. This is supported by your statement that the OM was a hopeless romantic, and that is just not in your husband's personality. This may be correct, but what if your husband could become more romantic. If so, it is possible that he then could become a better spouse for you than the OM could have ever been. <P>Also, please consider this possibility. Your relationship with OM probably did not involve all of the daily trials of a marriage, such as seeing each other with morning breath, high fevers, or diarrhea. Also, I would be willing to assume that your OM never was angry at you for forgetting to pick up his dry cleaning or not washing the car. These types of Love Bank withdrawals usually don't happen in a secret affair, and I assume that you never lived with OM, so you may not be aware of his annoying habits. An example could be that, as a hopeless romantic, he was a poor planner or financial manager. I am not saying that this is the case, but that the possibility exists. What happens is that when we are emotionally fulfilled by someone, we tend to overlook his or her faults. <P>I am not the most brilliant person in the world, but I have seen couples who are madly in love with each other, and that is the kind of relationship that I want with my wife. I think that this is what you want also, or else you would never have gotten involved with another man. <P>Please keep reading and posting. Also, I would suggest that you consider the telephone counseling. The link is at the top of the page. Jennifer Chalmers and Steve Harley are two of the best counselors I have ever encountered, and they are experts at rebuilding a marriage after an affair. Please call them. <P>Again, I greatly admire your courage and efforts.<P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You,<BR>John<BR>

Snobird,<P>I think I have already given my opinion on this, but I have a coulple of things to add.<P>First, I don't think you are no longer an indivudual when you marry. You will still have your own mind, and your own thoughts. I think that sharing your feelings and thoughts and your wants and needs with your spouse and them sharing them with you is what marriage is about. Not keeping secret feelings and thougts. Not keeping things from each other. Marriage should be everyones safe place, a place they can trust that what they say, do, feel, and think are not only shared with the spouse, but also can be trusted with the spouse. <P>I think we all want to have our own thoughts, I didn't get married to end all of my dreams and thoughts and feelings. I got married to share all that with my W. I wanted to share my life with her, not live my life with her. I could find a roomate to live with and support, but I want love and honesty and most of all I want to share myself with my W. In return I hope she wants the same. I know that is what I was lead to believe when I married her. This is how I see marriage.<P>Other people see it differently though. I have a co-worker that is married and he and his W participate in swinging. They both have sex with other married couples. I definitely don't agree with that at all, but that is not me and that isn't my marriage. I just don't see that as a good relationship when you allow or encourage your spouse to have sex with someone else. So as you said...to each his own. E

snobird:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I say that couples should base their goal on what works for them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Absolutely. And they should both agree on this, or reach agreement using the Policy of Joint Agreement.<P>But your scenario doesn't appear to be working in your marriage---at least for your husband. And part of that is that you're not giving him the tools and information that he needs. The fact that you would like him to be more romantic---but you won't tell him---how does this help??? And your assertion that he couldn't learn to be this romantic person is a disrespectful judgement.<P>Harley's principles are based on reducing happy marriages to a set of behaviors. If you're unwilling to follow these, you'll be unlikely to have a happy, successful marriage.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by snobird:<BR><B>Some INSIST that you must be an open book to your mate. Some say (ME) that you have a right to keep a part of yourself for you. Different people want different things from marriage in the first place. Some just want a companion, some people want a siamese twin! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Snobird, when I stumbled on your new thread I just had to add something. I'm the one who "insisted" that your life must be an open book to your mate. (Though I hope I didn't use that screechy tone. )<P>You are right that different people want different things from marriage. Here's what I want: emotional, physical and intellectual intimacy. Complete safety and reliance. Joy. Happiness which comes from being loved by someone who knows you in your most foolish, most embarrassing, most selfish moments, and loves you anyway.<P>That's a pretty tall order, I admit, but without that, I feel I'd just be settling for a roommate with sex. By the way, I'm not being smug--I don't have all that yet. But that's my goal, that's why I'm here. And there are moments of rapturous intimacy despite the sadness.<P>For all this, I don't think anything but complete honesty will do. I wouldn't want my husband to force unpleasant knowledge on me about his affair, but whatever I want to know, I think he should tell me. And his willingness to do so convinces me that he puts his own feelings aside to help me recover from his affair.<P>Snobird, I hope you are able to create the marriage you want, and that you find what help you need here. Maybe someone else will have the answer you need to hear.<P>Rose Red

Hey all--<P>Interesting to hear your replies. I can very much see the difference between the BS and the WS viewpoints. I will admit that my recovery is a very new thing. It has been about 5 weeks since things totally ended in communication with me and my OM (I really hate that term). It was a year that I spent building my thoughts and life and dreams around him. It is hard to change a year of habit. <P>I do want things to be good in my marriage, but I do see the long road ahead. The plus is how forgiving my H is. In the beginning he was more upset that there were problems in the marriage that he didn't know of than he was of the actual affair.<P>I've lost LOTS of things in this. Friends, a man I loved, my dreams. It's taking a lot to adjust to all of that. I'm sure people will see me as selfish, but I know that I have to be in a good place with myself before I can get to a good place in the marriage.<P>In the mean time, H and I are doing better than we have in years. We do spend time together, do fun things and are more focused on our jobs in the household and relationships. I DO believe we are on the right track. But I think my own recovery is going to have to go at it's own pace and in it's own fazes.<P>I'm not going to feel bad for my inner feelings and I will allow myself only so much guilt. But I am still going to try the best that I can to go forward. Right now that is the most I can promise.

Snobird,<P>I come in peace! <P>What you describe - being an individual and not just Mr. and Mrs. _____ - is wonderful as long as you have boundaries with people of the opposite sex.<P>When my H and I were dating he told me we should have complete honesty and tell each other our every thought and daily activities. I didn't agree, but found myself pulling everything out of my head when he'd ask. At times, when I didn't have anything to share, I felt I needed to say something... ANYTHING!<P>We were incredibly in love back then and I long for those days because we had that for a very long time. He was my soulmate!<P>I didn'e mind too much his overly friendly nature (it's one of the things that I fell in love with) and if a female friendship bothered me - we talked about it.<P>I would have been very happy in our life together, but he's proven himself to be deceitful, unfaithful and a liar. NOW I expect him to be an open book and have complete honesty. I have access to his 2 emails where he works and I check them obsessively (I asked him to change the password to save my sanity, but he won't).<P>Anyway, my opinion is that until you prove you are incapable of setting boundaries and forsaking all others, then what works would be great no matter what the dynamics. Our freedom in a covenant marriage is a gift!<P>I hope this made sense!<P>I wish you continued success as you heal and rebuild your life and marriage! I wish the same for your H!<P>

Thanks, Free. I understand where you are coming from. I do the best I can day by day. Maybe there will be a time soon when I won't resent someone trying to pry into my mind and be able to willingly share everything.<P>:-)

My H used to tell me everything that was on his mind. He'd go out of his way to show me his 1st girlfriends house or he'd point out some other thing that was insignificant to us, but generally had something to do with a past woman. It just made me a bit angry that he would provoke my jealous feelings willingly.<P>I know what that does to me so if we pass somewhere that is significant to me, but might not be to US, then I don't mention it (if I think it might be hurtful in a sense).<P>Now my H doesn't share much at all about what's on his heart - he shares with other women! And no I don't think he has chosen this path because if he shares with me I get angry AT him. I keep that to myself mostly. I just wish he'd share about the significant areas of our life together and the issues we are struggling with.<P>

Hiya Sno,<P>Say...ahhh....don't look now, but I heard your OM (Ohhh, I hate that term too!) "fired the musket" 6! times with his latest squeeze.......and she's just a little prettier than you! Not much, just a little. <P>Yeah....there's lots of different kinds of marriages...but what you guys got falls beneath ALL of em...you gotta lot of nerve even using the word. Do your H a favor....and go with Mr 5X. <P>You silly, silly girl.

<BR>Say...ahhh....don't look now, but I heard your OM (Ohhh, I hate that term too!) "fired the musket" 6! times with his latest squeeze.......and she's just a little prettier than you! Not much, just a little. <P>You silly, silly girl.[/B][/QUOTE]<P>************<P>Whoever you are, you're an idiot.<P>

Dear snowbird,<P>The thing is that Harley's principles were designed for providing strategies to affair-proof marriages and also to help betrayed spouses work out a plan to recover from an affair and perhaps save their marriages.<P>However, there are two Q&A letters regarding wayward spouses from Harley, here are the links:<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5037_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>The Lover's Perspective on Infidelity Letter #1</A><P>The first letter is from a married OW trying to move on with her life. There is a link within the 1st letter to the second letter from a single OW...