****What is with this site??? I've been waiting all day for the page to load!!****<P>As requested I'm going to start a new topic on when it is okay to throw in the towel and say "I don't want to be married anymore."<P>But let me first say how much I have appreciated finding some kindred spirits here. SnL, you speak all that my heart feels, amazing. V, what you said about the reason why you made your decision helped me to understand more about my OM and why he had to do what he did. I so appreciate your view point.<P>I'm one of those people who doesn't find divorce such a dirty word. I did at one point. I was married when I was quite a bit younger. It was a bad choice from the get go and within a few months I was divorced. I was SO ashamed for many years. Finally I came to grips that that was just something that I had to do. It took strength and power to do it, too. I learned from it. My current H is a very dear, wonderful person. But as I said, I was never sure it was a soulmate type of thing. When I met my OM, "soulmate" smacked me right across the face. You know when it's there, you know when it's not. I've had the fortune (or misfortune) of knowing couples who are married soulmates. They found each other! It isn't they married and decided to be soulmates. They were meant from the get-go. It can be done.<P>As for divorcing; this isn't Puritan times, people should be able to do as they need. Promises are things only children believe can't be broken. There are exceptions around every corner.<P>With me, there are no children in my marriage and small families (same with my OM's situation), so a divorce wouldn't be too hard to manage. But as I've said, I don't feel like leaving my husband. I WANT to try to make it workable. I won't ever expect soulmate quality love to spring forth. But that doesn't mean that we can't be happy sharing our lives with someone who we work well with. But I also know that we are not chained to each other. If things don't work somewhere, I would want him to love me enough to set me free and I would want him to be happy any way he could manage. With me or without me. I love him enough to try anyway.<P>

I'm moving my own topic up. I posted it yesterday, but I had such an awful time getting back to the message board the entire day. And I tried it from work (DSL connection) and from home (cable connection). Anyone else have any trouble?<P>Anyone want to contribute?<P>Going to see my counselor for the first time since my OM and I parted. This should be interesting......anyone want to come hold my hand to get me through??? :-O

Hi Snowbird. Good luck with your counseling session. I really hope it goes well for you.<P>Here's the way I feel about divorce. If you got married and it wasn't meant to be (big mistake), then I think you should know relatively quickly (like in your first marriage). You realize, you learn, and you end it, simple as that.<P>However, when their is an affair involved, you have to ask yourself, WHY didn't the WS end things with their S first IF it was truly that bad and their marriage was not meant to be?? Whatever the reason is why they are NOT ending it with S IS the reason they should not divorce right away.<P>If you never had an affair and are finding yourself not happy after a long relationship with someone, then you get counseling. If the counseling doesn't work, or you realized you've grown apart, okay, you were not meant to be and your marriage will not work - get a divorce.<P>If you and your S have learned from an affair, dealt with it, gone to counseling, then it is like you are back at square one. You start all over, realize whether or not it will work or if you've just grown too far apart, and if you find out it won't work - get a divorce.<P>Having an affair tends to mess up a WS's entire perspective on things and as such, I don't think it's okay to just say: I was unhappy, I had an affair, that proves we were not meant to be (or I never dealt with WHY it happened, I was just so unhappy our marriage must not be meant to be), we should get a divorce. You need to understand the how's and why's of this. There is a reason you didn't get a divorce when you were feeling that lousy about your marriage BEFORE the affair happened. I realize many didn't expect the affair to happen, but it did, and as such, if you just run and try to make excuses saying your marriage was never meant to be, then you will never really resolve anything... You need to know you are making the decision to divorce based on incompatibility and inability to be married, rather than on the affair itself, or reactions you are having TO the affair. You really need a clear head, which means you have to be out of the fog before you make this decision.<P>It is okay to make the decision to divorce after there has been an affair, I'm just saying you need to get over the affair first, understand it, and then make your decision based on reality... <P>Otherwise, like many other WS's out there, you may just find that you made the WRONG decision months/years from now. It happens ALL the time.<P>(you meaning the person making the decision - not YOU)<BR>HbH

<BR>Smart response. All too easy to make rash decisions, and I find myself wondering if the person here is really looking inward, or just rationalizing some anti-social behavior. <P>All too often the WS is trying to ease his/her pain in the quickest way possible. Ease, not purge. Because the causes of the behavior aren't addressed.<P>"You really need a clear head, which means you have to be out of the fog before you make this decision.<P>It is okay to make the decision to divorce after there has been an affair, I'm just saying you need to get over the affair first, understand it, and then make your decision based on reality... <P>Otherwise, like many other WS's out there, you may just find that you made the WRONG decision months/years from now. It happens ALL the time.<BR>

Snobird - I don't know when it's okay to divorce, but I do think marriage vows are not like other promises. If you end up going with the OM but you don't want to feel chained to him, then don't get married. You may not consider the marriage permanent, but your spouse could be relying on it.<P>And please, no matter what, make sure you have the commitment question settled before you have any children. As you pointed out, this makes a big difference. If you have kids and later decide to have an affair or a divorce, that really broadens the damage and the number of people who are hurt. Kids are truly innocent in this. You would feel a lot more guilty in that situation, than you might feel now.<P>It sounds like you still want to try in your current marriage, although with reservations. I hope you do that and give it several months to work. I think married couples who appear to be soulmates actually work hard at it, especially after the first few years have gone by. You should be happy and feel that your H is a soulmate, but it will take some time and effort and patience.<P>Good luck.

Hi Snobird,<P>I have a couple questions for you.<P>If OM was available, would you D your H and marry OM? And if the answer is yes to both, wouldn't your Marriage to your OM be a "promise"? <P>How would a "promise" to OM be any different than a promise to your H ("Promises are things only children believe can't be broken").<P>I don't see any point in marrying if you believe Promises are only made to be broken, Snobird. <P>Please help me understand.<BR> <BR>Jo<BR>

<BR><B>Hi Snobird,<P>I have a couple questions for you.<P>If OM was available, would you D your H and marry OM? And if the answer is yes to both, wouldn't your Marriage to your OM be a "promise"? *******Yes, all I ever wanted was a life with OM. The difference in my promise to OM would be that it is a promise I would want to keep. What good is someone staying with something just because they promised to do it?? Wouldn't you want your spouse to stay because he really wanted to and not because he just felt he was supposed to? Wouldn't that feel like pitty?? Right now I'm not staying with my H because of a "promise" I made. I made the decision to stay myself, because of what I wanted for me.<P><BR>I don't see any point in marrying if you believe Promises are only made to be broken, Snobird.*********No, no, they are not made to BE broken, they are made to show your faith and sincerity in something. But what happens when your faith runs out and there is no sincerity left in your heart? Go through the motions?? Yes, by all means, work on it if that is what is in your heart to do. But I just can't say that just because you signed a document and said a few words in a church, that you no longer have any control of the direction of your life. <P>Most people try their best, but sometimes you "outgrow" the "shoe" that used to fit so well. Does that make it the foot's fault or the shoe's fault?? It's no ones. It means it's time to either get new shoes or go barefoot for a while!!! :-P<P></B>[/QUOTE]<P>

Thanks for your answers, Sno ...<P>Lets delve a bit farther then .... you say you feel a connection with OM that you did not feel with your H when you married him. A right fit.<P>So lets say you marry OM, don't you agree that you REALLY don't know someone until you live with them. Do you truly believe you know every IMPORTANT thing about OM that needs to be known in order for you to make a TRUE LASTING promise to him and stay with him the "rest of your life", thru thick and thru thin, till death do you part? I mean, I know "you think" you know every fundamental thing about him, but do you really, without living with him for a few years?<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited September 21, 2001).]

Sno Wrote:<BR>"No, no, they are not made to BE broken, they are made to show your faith and sincerity in something. But what happens when your faith runs out and there is no sincerity left in your heart?" <P>And Sno Wrote:<BR>Promises are things only children believe can't be broken.<P>So adults are exempt from keeping a promise if they feel enough time has past and they find something better? What does that show our children?<P>I looked up the definition of the words "Promise" and "vows":<BR>Promise (noun) Statement that one will do or not do something; basis for expectation.<P>Vow (noun) solemn promise to do something or to live or to act a certain way<P>Solemn (adjective) highly serious; of great importance or responsibility<P>Sno, I believe vows (Promise) were created because wise people knew that a long lasting marriage would have it's ups and downs, and ebb and flow. After several years there are bound to be those chunks of time when you and your spouse have a bad patch. But you work thru it BECAUSE you made a COMMITMENT (promise) ... VOWS.<P><BR>Sno Wrote:<BR>"Yes, all I ever wanted was a life with OM. The difference in my promise to OM would be that it is a promise I would want to keep." <P>So Sno, now I'm really confused, when you married your H, didn't you intend or "want" to keep your promise??? Or did you marry your H *knowing* you would not keep your promise (Vows)???<P>This is saying to me there are two types of promises for you, the ones you *want* to keep and the ones you don't. Did I misinterpret?<P>Jo <p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited September 21, 2001).]

Boy, I've got your tail in quite a knot, don't I, Jo??<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resilient:<BR><B>So lets say you marry OM, don't you agree that you REALLY don't know someone until you live with them. Do you truly believe you know every IMPORTANT thing about OM that needs to be known in order for you to make a TRUE LASTING promise to him and stay with him the "rest of your life", thru thick and thru thin, till death do you part? I mean, I know "you think" you know everything fundamental thing about him, but do you really, without living with him for a few years?)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Did you KNOW everything about your spouse when you married him?? I've been with my spouse (married and dating) for over 11 years. I'm not sure I know him yet! And I'm not sure about the "till death do you part" either. My OM was not just some flash in the pan. I knew his every day life as well as his wife did. I never would have thought that our live would be the freakin' Garden of Eden. I knew there would be problems. We'd fight about money probably and who left the cat food out and what to do about the car. But those things don't bother me. I gave the OM a strong look over before I decided anything. We all "THINK" we know people, we all get wake-ups to reality. We have to just get a feel for the proper direction and go in it.<P><B>So adults are exempt from keeping a promise if they feel enough time has past and they find something better?</B><BR>Yep, that simplifies it.<P><B> What does that show our children?</B> Don't have any children, I have cats. And the fate of the sproglings of the world does not have a thing to do with my staying married or not.<P><B>Sno, I believe vows (Promise) were created because wise people knew that a long lasting marriage would have it's ups and downs, and ebb and flow. After several years there are bound to be those chunks of time when you and your spouse have a bad patch. But you work thru it BECAUSE you made a COMMITMENT (promise) ... VOWS.</B> Correct!! And there could be a "happily ever after". But what if faze two comes? What if you do try to work through it and it just isn't getting any better. You're tired, angry, feeling drained of all emotion, and you don't even recognize that person laying next to you in bed. Do you still stay? Because 15 years ago on a summer day, you said "I promise" in front of a bunch of people??<P><B>So Sno, now I'm really confused, when you married your H, didn't you intend or "want" to keep your promise??? Or did you marry your H *knowing* you would not keep your promise (Vows)???</B> Never did I ever suspect that I wouldn't keep my vows. I did intend to keep my promise and stay married. So far, I AM still married. But what I'm saying is that IF I wanted out, that would be okay. It doesn't make me a bad person. <P><B>This is saying to me there are two types of promises for you, the ones you *want* to keep and the ones you don't. Did I misinterpret?</B> More than likely, yes. I make a promise and do intend to keep it and I usually do! It's rare that I go back on one. But IF I do, it is because I had good reason. My reasons. The ones I have to live with and face every day. Only I have to get up every day and be ME. I'm only able to do that if I know that I have lived my life the best I can for me and those around me. My husband would not be happy being married to a miserable, bitter, unhappy woman. If he were, I'm sure he'd want me to go. I allow myself mistakes and "do-overs." You might feel better if you did too.<P><BR>

Hi snobird,<P>You don't know me, but I've been around MB for over two years. <P>I am also divorced, and remarried. I am NOT a poster-child for good MB'ing, because my (past)marriage failed. But I am a good person who sincerely would like to tell you that the grass is NOT greener on the other side.<P>I came to MB because I was a WS. I had an affair with a man I worked with, which resulted in one hop in the sack. I thought he was my soulmate up until that moment. Until that moment, I thought we'd be together forever. And then, a funny thing happened. I was HORRIFED and I wanted to DIE. I came home from the hotel and stood in the shower for at least two hours. I told my (then)H that night. My life changed forever from that moment forward.<P>I'd been married 18 years at the time -- and although I did end the affair and try very hard to repair my marriage, my marriage was doomed to fail. I had begun a series of events that could not be reversed. My (then)H began to get revenge on me by having some affairs of his own. It was one bad thing after another, until I'd just had enough and filed for divorce.<P>Shortly thereafter, I met my (now)H, and of course, it made it that much easier for me to let go -- or so I thought.<P>My life has been one of great pain and turmoil over the last three years. I have had joys too, of course. I have married a wonderful man. But what of my ex-marriage, where I spent (in the end) 20 years, and produced three children (2 adult, one teen)? What became of my ex-H? What became of my life, as I'd known it for years?<P>One might ask, and many have, if I made the right decision. <P>I can only say that I made the best decision I could at the time, and one that ultimately saved me. But looking back, I could have done more -- I SHOULD have done more -- and I will FOREVER feel that a big piece of me died when my past marriage died.<P>Yes, I am a new person, but a new DAMAGED person who is in need of continued healing. <P>It isn't easy. It is HARD. It is PAINFUL. <P>Be very careful. You have treaded on dangerous ground already, and continue to do so by harboring these feelings for your OM. <P>I wish you peace and a restored marriage.<P>(*you too, s_n_l, as always)

Hi,<P>I'm appreciative of you responding, Sno ... thanks. <P>I think what I'm trying to nudge you towards seeing is when you married your H you felt enough in-love feelings as well as a degree of mature love for him, so much so that you made a promise to be his W for the rest of your life (soul mate feelings or not). At that time I suspect you felt you'd never go back on your promise, that it WAS a promise you *wanted* to keep. And NOW you feel you would *want* to keep a promise to the OM if that opportunity presented itself. <P>I do understand your frustration and unhappiness in your marriage, truly ... and it sounds like your H is a very understanding man. He loves you enough to let you go, if you so choose. I believe that, in of itself, is why you have stayed. He has demonstrated his love for you and his concern for your happiness is secondary to his feelings. That's pure selflessness and it's beautiful.<P>I would bet if your H knew your ENs and you allowed him to fulfill them, you may find yourself feeling more than just an obligation to your marriage and him. Does he know your ENs, Sno?<P>Jo<P>

Sno,<P>One additional note ... you are not a bad person. No one here thinks you are a bad person. BS and WS's alike, we are all human and struggling in confusion and pain trying to make sense of our lives and make decisions about our marriages. <P>I hope your path becomes clearer for you by virtue of spending time here at MB. <P>Lv,<BR>Jo

Nyn, it does sound like you've had a difficult road. I'm very sorry to hear that. But all of us here have taken different paths, perhaps leading in the direction though. Each of us has a different story. Mine and yours are very different. I do appreciate your concern and every one else who has expressed it. And you too Jo, really!<P>I can't express how well things are going in my marriage, believe it or not. My husband and I have done months of talking about where the mistakes were made. We each see where improvements need to be made. We work hard on it every day. I try to be kinder, more affectionate and be honest with what I need. He tries to be more responsible and mature and also patient with me. We both have a healing process and are taking things slow. I'll follow "love" as far as it will take me; whether it is to the reaches of soulmate or if it is just to a place of comfort. I have no other agenda than to continue on this path.<P>I would not have had a story book marriage had I married my OM, but I can't help but see that we would have been happy. As happy as any married couple has a right to be. It was something I felt deep inside and KNEW, like I knew the sky was blue. I will miss him and love him always and I don't make any apologies for that. A part of me will always wish our paths would have crossed sooner or some bit of fate would have worked differently to allow us to be together.<P>It's still hard for me. If I talk about him, I'll cry. Someday I won't. I won't be looking to turn the philosphy of marriage every which way in order to understand how I can live with it and be happy. I will have found my nitch. For now, I wander about and try to make sense of it all. My confusion is my company for the most part. I'll ease out of it on my own.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by snobird:<BR><B><BR>[b]Hi Snobird,<P>I have a couple questions for you.<BR>*******Yes, all I ever wanted was a life with OM. The difference in my promise to OM would be that it is a promise I would want to keep. What good is someone staying with something just because they promised to do it?? Wouldn't you want your spouse to stay because he really wanted to and not because he just felt he was supposed to? Wouldn't that feel like pitty?? Right now I'm not staying with my H because of a "promise" <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But if your "promises" are only based on your feelings - which are fleeting and everchanging - rather than a rational moral committment, why should anyone EVER trust your "promises?" They would be sort of meaningless if the person knew that you had no intention of keeping them when the wind direction changed. <P>My point is that you people who don't keep your promises should STOP making them if they are contingent on your feelings and subject to change. Just be honest going in.<P>Don't get married, just shack up and when the heat wears off, move onto your next "soulmate." Sort of like animals in heat. Wouldn't that be the most honest solution? And please, for God's sake, take effective birth control so that children are not left in the wreckage of your "feelings."<P>

Sno, this is going to hurt, but it is the honest to God truth.<P>IF you had met OM before you were married, you most likely could have gotten together, been married, and PERHAPS been very happy. Perhaps forever, perhaps for only a few months... Perhaps he would find an OW or you would have found an OM because of OTHER problems. You do not know, nor can you every say for sure it wouldn't happen (years ago would you have said it would have happened in your current marriage?).<P>Since this did not happen and you found OM, while still married to your current spouse. I can guarantee you that you would never have been happy with OM, not really. The pain, the guilt, the sorrow over what you have caused would be immense, slowly (perhaps years later) it would eat away at you, you would try and make the best out of your new life, but you'll never be as happy as you *thought* you would have been.<P>Now, if you chose to divorce your H after a sincere effort of trying to get back together, with counseling, THEN found another person and got married (NOT OM, too much bad history). Yeah, you could be pretty darn happy if you went to counseling and dealt with your past issues... No more guilt, you DID your best!!<P>Please remember:<BR>"Est Solarus Oth Mithus" - My honor is my life<P>If you can't live by the promises you make, then what kind of life can you live? <P>You wrote:<BR>"This is saying to me there are two types of promises for you, the ones you *want* to keep and the ones you don't. Did I misinterpret?"<BR>--More than likely, yes. I make a promise and do intend to keep it and I usually do! It's rare that I go back on one. But IF I do, it is because I had good reason. <BR>-----------<P>Who decides if it is a good reason? If it affects anyone OTHER than yourself, than the other person involved should also have the right to decide if breaking that promise is a GOOD decision to make. If it only effects you, well then, that's your choice, and yours alone. (in a life/death situation, well then, the choice is obvious)...<P>BTW: YOU ARE NOT A BAD PERSON!!! Just someone who made a few bad choices that you are learning to deal with and work through...<P>How did counseling go by the way? <BR>HbH<BR>

I hope things work out for you! Counseling really can help, if you find the right one. My H and I were lucky, she has helped us out at 2 different times, both over his affair with my ex best friend. <P>As far as 'soulmates' go, my H really thought she was his. Now he looks back and realizes he didn't even love her. It was 'the fog'. He can't remember half of the things he said or did to me during that time. He also knows if had ended up with her, it would have never lasted.<P>I'm glad you are willing to give your marriage a chance. I have a close friend who divorced her first husband. When I asked her why, she couldn't really answer. But today she does regret it. Her 2nd marriage was much worse!<P>Good luck

I wanted to expound a little on what I said before about the folly of basing promises on feelings. Further, who in thier RIGHT MIND would do business or interact with any level of agreement with a person who handled thier promises that way?<P>Can you imagine what would happen in our society if EVERYONE handled their promises that way? Imagine your employer telling you on payday that they no longer "feel" like paying you. Or maybe your employee will tell you out of the blue that they no longer "feel" like working. Or your bank tells you that they no longer "feel" like giving you your money. <P>Society would change overnight if everyone handled promises this way. We have to be able to function on a certain level of trust and without that trust we are all extremely hampered in our lives. That is why promises should never be based on feelings. <P>Now, do I think that there are times when promises SHOULD be broken? Yes, I do. But I do not think that they should ever be contingent on something so frivolous and everchanging as feelings. NO ONE is ever safe in an environment such as that. <P>But I do think that rather than trying to diminish the value and validity of our standards [promises, vows] to accomodate our wrongdoing that it would be better to simply raise our own standards. <p>[This message has been edited by Dana114 (edited September 22, 2001).]