Tonight I am having a big conversation with my WH ... I am supposed to convince him that it is worth saving/staying in our M. I've been talking and talking for months now, I don't know what I can say differently to convince him. Please help me with some ideas of what I can say. It's like I'm supposed to do a sales job, with the product being me.<P>I'm so wound up and nervous now, I feel like tonight it's do or die time, and I know that just pointing out that "I've changed, I've changed" isn't going to be enough.<P>WH's head is so far up in the fog, it is going to be difficult to break through. Telling him how much I love him and care for him, and how hard I am willing to work on our M doesn't seem to be enough.<P>Right now he is afraid that if we continue our M that as soon as OW is gone, everything will go back to the same way it was, that my changes won't last. He also says he doesn't want to hate me when it fails again (right now he gives me the popular line with fogged-in WH's: "I love you, but I'm not 'in love' with you"), and also wants me to be his friend even if we divorce, or better yet let him have two wives. The unspoken problem with staying married is that at some point he will have to give up OW. That's got to be the biggest roadblock.<P>I've been working Plan A as hard as I can (but have fallen into the LB trap too many times). He has noticed the changes. I think that's what is keeping him at home now.<P>This is my first post, but I've been lurking here for several weeks, reading and absorbing the Harley's articles and the discussion forums. Probably some background would be helpful, since I haven't posted here before. We've been married for 25 years, no children.<P>In May, H tells me he is considering D, but hasn't decided for sure yet, and gives me the reasons for his dissatisfaction with our M. During the next few weeks, I keep trying to work on the M, but there wasn't much communication, and he keeps saying he hasn't decided yet. <P>One day in June, I was served with D papers and he moved out of the house. I was shocked, he didn't tell me he decided to file. The next day he comes over to get more of his things, and we (finally) start yelling and fighting with each other about the state of our M. During this argument, he informs me that he's been having an A, and has moved into an apartment a few weeks earlier with the OW! Another big shock for me. I trusted him so completely, and he was able to pull this off without me suspecting a thing. <P>The OW is his ex-GF from HS/College, with whom he has had 2 A's previously during our M. Now she is down on her luck, just ending her second bad marriage, has no money and no job. WH is completely supporting her financially, and gave her a car too. He says she is meeting all of his ENs, and I meet none of them. He is her knight in shining armour. They started an e-mail/cell phone EA in March that went to PA in May.<P>The really bizarre twist to my story is that we ending up really communicating on a deep level and talked every day for a week. At the end of the week, WH decides to move back home! But he's not giving up OW, he's going to decide between us. He's going to see if he can fall back "in love" with me. From everything I've read here, I know that he's not going to be able to fall back in love with me as long as OW is in the picture. Especially since he's putting in way more than 15 hours per week working on his relationship with OW. There is daily contact. I'm sure she probably is doing a great job of meeting his ENs, she's got a free ride she wants to keep, and during the EA got all the info she needed about our troubled marriage to make sure she could take advantage of him at a vulnerable time and pushed all the right buttons. He tells me she prays for me and really cares about my happiness. Huh??? I don't know how such an intelligent man can be buying this BS.<P>Sorry this turned out to be so long winded, and thank you for taking the time to read my story.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by SilverRose (edited September 19, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by SilverRose (edited September 19, 2001).]

I'll be brief since I haven't seen your story yet.<BR>I had "the talk" with my WH. I described the reasons that Dr. Harley says we have affairs. Did you read Surviving an Affair? If you haven't you can check into the concepts and material here on the website. <BR>I described how, when our needs are not met that it becomes possible for us to have an affair. I described the love bank theory and how that tied into the whole affair. I did this in a very calm non emotional state. It made sense to him because it was logical(something most men can relate to). Also told him that because I was his wife and the mother of his children that we deserved to have the chance to make things right first before he went anywhere.<BR>

SilverRose,<P>No one can be convinced of anything against thier will. Nor is his royal presence something to be bid off to the highest bidder. This isn't a competition, you are his wife. If you have already been practicing Plan A according to MB then you have done all you can up to this point. If that has not worked maybe it's time to just let him go and implement a good Plan B. Maybe that's what he needs to make up his mind. Personally, I think it's dehumanizing to try and "sell" someone against thier will - you are worth so much more than that. <P>On the other hand, what has he been doing to prove himself worthy to you after an affair?

Hi Silverrose:<P>Welcome to MB. Sounds like you've been doing a pretty good job so far in this difficult situation.<P>Unfortunately a lot of WS in this situation are looking for reasons to do exacting what they already want to do...but can't find the courage to. And they may give you an opportunity to convince them to remain in the marriage, but you really are fighting an uphill battle to convince them of anything....and they may be sincere about this but the lure of OW is too great.<P>So why bother?.....because even in the fog some of what we say to them does get through and if it does not hit home this time...some day in the future it may...I know my WS was so convinced of his rightness in leaving me the first time that it took months of talking to him to begin to make a dent in his resolve. I think by the time they have moved out and gotten involved with OW they are convinced (by themselves and OW) that the marriage is dead and overcoming that is difficult if not impossible until they are out of the fog again. <P>It's worth the effort...but set your expections low. You will need to make an effort not to appear to be educating him...instead place your focus on what you have learned in relation to how you have made mistakes in the marriage and have learned how to make things better for both of you....don't try to assign blame or use guilt to make him stay...you are convincing him that he wants to stay because there is possibility in the marriage healing and becoming better then it even was in the past....try to refrain from being sidetracked with any discussions of OW....especially don't attack her because he will be forced to defend her and this will end in LBing. <P>I guess the important thing is to focus this talk on how staying will benefit him (because that is really what he is concerned with right now...how he feels)...not on what this whole thing has done to hurt you or harmed your marriage.<P>I don't know if I've been much help...but in general, after many relationship/marriage conversations with WH, I came to realise that until he was ready to listen and accept his part in the marriage going bad...the only thing I could do was concentrate on making changes in myself that affected him....and hope that he would realize that change was possible...in me and in time in him and the marriage. <P>I wish you luck tonight.<P>Faye

Thank you all so much for your replies. They were all so supportive and helpful.<P>I have no update to report yet, the big talk didn't take place last night after all. WH was too tired. He got home later than usual, having spent an extra hour or so after work with OW yesterday. So now I've got another day to plan what I'm going to say to make my case. <P>Why is he doing this to me? I've been thinking about that all night. Why do I have to humiliate myself like this? The things I've been doing during Plan A are bad enough as it is. Clipping his toenails! Sheesh. What more do I have to endure? <P>I don't really understand the point of this. Is he really still confused and undecided and I can really tip the balance? Or is he just trying to make me ask him to leave so he doesn't have to say it himself?<P>Why is he spending more and more time with OW? I don't understand it. If he's planning to leave me soon anyway, why can't he just spend more time with me now, knowing that he's planning to be with her full time soon? It's weird, anytime it seems like we're getting closer, I soon feel him pulling away and spending more time with OW.<P>

Clipping his toenails!!!!!!!!!!! I thought Plan A was about working on yourself not humiliating yourself. If it was me in your situation it would time for some tough love/Plan B. <P>I read somewhere here once that should not do anything in Plan A that you don't plan on doing permanently should you reconcile. <p>[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited September 20, 2001).]

My opinion is PLAN B. If he's got a place with/for OW, then tell him to go there. Explain to him that he is depleting what little love YOU have left for him, and that in order to preserve the little love YOU have left for him, he needs to be away from you for YOU to sort it out. You may not want to take my advice as I am a little upset right now. My H moved back home 2 1/2 months ago. Supposedly contact had ended (EA/PA began sometime between December, 2000 and March, 2001, I will NEVER know the truth about that). We have had 4 times when I have found proof that contact has never ended. I am so untrusting at this point, I want my H OUT. If you asked me today, I would say I don't care if he EVER comes out of the fog. The BITC* can have him. However, you know how it goes, if you ask me tomorrow, I will say I still have hope for our marriage. You sound like you are doing more than Plan A. Your feelings of humiliation are VALID. Get him out of your house. Remember, just my opinion.<P>MOM

Take the advice SR....woooo girl....clipping his toenails?<P>Making a case? Financially supporting the OW?<P>I tell you what, Plan B is all that comes to mind. I would tell him that he has no right in putting you through this humiliation and degradation. He will not change anything until you put your foot down and do it for him. Right now he has both women. Why would he give that up if you both allow it? The OW sure is playing him good by telling him she is praying for you. She is doing really good at giving him more and more things to appear to be the best for him. She is a real good actress. <P>One thing is for sure, you are so lucky there are no kids. <BR>Thank God for that. <P>SR, take back your dignity and tell him she can have him if that is what he chooses. Tell him that you cannot waste anymore of your time or life on this. Tell him that you are not going to fight anyone or compete cause there is no comparison. Tell him that his choices are his responsibility and you are not taking any responsibility of his actions any longer. Tell him you love him, but until he finds what he is looking for and gives everything he has into your M and ends all contact with the OW, you will not accept anymore of his stuff. Then tell him you want him out by the time you get back. Don't hesitate, leave and go for a drive or something and don't let him stop you. He'll either stay and wait for you to come back to see if you mean what you say, he'll threaten you that it will be over if you walk out the door, or he'll leave and call you the next day or so. He may even come back crying for you to forgive him and help him, etc... He will do everything to get the power back on his side and put you back on the ropes. <P>It wasn't until I did this, until I just let him go, until I said to him and her that they could have each other, that reality hit and the fog lifted. SR, you are the only one that has the control over this whole situation and he knows this. Take back your life. I pray for strength and courage for you in whatever decision you make on how to handle this. I pray you wake up as well. Don't let him do this to you anymore. <P>Keep us posted. We support you whatever you choose to do. <BR>(((((SilverRose)))))<P>Clouds

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dana114:<P><B>No one can be convinced of anything against thier will. Nor is his royal presence something to be bid off to the highest bidder. This isn't a competition, you are his wife.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I do know from 25 years of M to this man that I can't make him do aything he doesn't want to do. He actually filed papers and moved out and lived with OW for one week. During that week, he came over to the house and we talked extensively every day. At the end of the week he moved back home. Why did he do that? He had to have realized that he hadn't thought this whole thing through, that he didn't make any effort to tell me how unhappy he was or try to repair the M, and that the M wasn't really over after all (like he told OW it was). One thing I know for certain is that in order to justify/rationalize his A, he had to convince himself that I didn't love him. During our week of talking, he realized that was untrue. That was probably the main reason he came home.<P>I also know that right now, he's having his cake and eating it too. And I'm putting up with a lot that I really shouldn't. He's got two women doing everything they can to meet his ENs so that he will pick her. He's got to be feeling very good about that. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>maybe it's time to just let him go and implement a good Plan B. Maybe that's what he needs to make up his mind.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't want to make it easy for him and make the choice for him as long as I can stand doing Plan A. He's the jerk who got himself into this mess and takes no responsibility for the state of the M. If he wants to go, he's going to have to say it himself. He was able to do it when he filed for D, so he should be able to be a man and do it again if that's what he really wants. <BR> <BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Personally, I think it's dehumanizing to try and "sell" someone against thier will - you are worth so much more than that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not sure it would be selling him against his will, since he did ask for this. Maybe I'm analyzing this with rose colored glasses, but I'm thinking that he is leaning towards staying with me, has enough doubts about ending the M, and just needs to hear something from me that will make him feel like he is making the right choice. If, OTOH, he really wants to leave and has no intention of staying, making me do this is a really cruel, insensitive thing to do. That would make me question why I should still love him, and Plan B will probably follow.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>On the other hand, what has he been doing to prove himself worthy to you after an affair?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Absolutely nothing. <P><p>[This message has been edited by SilverRose (edited September 20, 2001).]

I've heard the same lines, too---don't love you like I should, not in-love with you, etc.....You've been married for 25 yrs?? Sounds like a long time to figure out that he has no feelings for you!!<P>I agree with everyone in that I don't think you have to SELL yourself to him---you ARE his wife, and an equal partner, and He knows your good points after 25 yrs....<P>I have found myself doing things for him that I wouldn't normally do, but somewhere I read that if you do those things that you aren't too fond of for him, then that is real love, because you are doing it for his sake, and getting nothing out of it-----do I make sense??<P>anyway, whatever you decide, a prayer is being said for you by me!! <P>Krystal

sliverrose,<P>Do you want your H to move out? Would you be able to support yourself? do you need time for yourself and to go into plan B or do you still want to try plan A?<P>You can't convince someone in the fog to stay. The mind is confused and even the innocent things you say will be twisted around inside the WS head. I know, cuz, I was the WS. And I just wanted an excuse to leave and a way to justify my behavior. But my H never gave me that excuse.<BR>I think I am one of the few who never lied about my A right from the start. I also didn't care how much it hurt my H to know the truth. I was so convinced that our marriage would end and I would live happily ever after with my OM.<BR>I had no intentions of working things out or anything. I only stayed home because it was the holidays and I didn't want to have to explain to the whole family during that time. But that was just the opportunity my H needed to show me that he could change and he did change.<P>I have posted my story on here somewhere and when I go back and read I see how much my thinking has changed. While in the fog, I couldn't hear anything, but my own selfish desires. And when my H asked questions, I was brutely honest in what I really believed to be the problem. But it took months before I would allow myself to see the changes in him and believe they were real.<P>You can't do anything to convince him. You can only change yourself. Do the things you do for him because you want to, not to "win him over" The more you do things to "win him over" the more he will use you and before long you will feel very used. I know because my H did things for me that he had never done before. And he spent more money buying me stuff which I took advantage of. I know I did. And even tho all that, I didn't really care about his feelings.<BR>I had to work thru it all myself, but not really by myself.<BR>God was there working on my concious and my love for Him.<BR>God knew that I couldn't be the woman I always wanted to be if I lived outside His will for my life. And having an A was definitly outside that will.<P>Anyways, I'm off the subject. You need to do what you need to do for yourself. YOu have to decide how much you can take and then sent your boundaries. You have to know that you did everything you could do, but you can't do it all by yourself.<BR>My prayers are with you.<BR>Debbie<P>------------------<BR>"I find the great thing in the world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving. To reach the port of heaven, we must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it ---- but we must sail, not drift nor lie at anchor." Oliver Wendall Holmes

SilverRose, <P>My point is that the one who needs to do the selling job here is *HIM*, not you. You have done nothing wrong - HE HAS. You have been doing Plan A and if that has not worked [obviously it is not because he is still seeing the OW uncontested!] then it is time for Plan B. Do you see what I mean? You are not the one who has the "selling" to do - HE DOES. He is still seeing the OW and needs to explain to you why you should be willing to continue. And just why would you? WHY is he still seeing the OW? <P>If he is so undecided, then maybe Plan B would help him make a decision. <P>

Thank you all so much for your replies. You have given me so much to think about. I've been on my own with this all along. My parents and sister know there's trouble in the M, but I haven't told them about OW, so until I found this group, I haven't been able to tell the whole story to anyone.<P>I also appreciate your prayers. To be prayed for by such good and kind hearted people means so much to me. <P>One of OW's tactics to manipulate my WS is via religion. It's God's will that they were brought back together. Sure. She got WH to return to church after being away for many years. You would think that a return to faith would cause a man to do everything in his power to repair his marriage. Instead, God is used to justify his actions. OW actually sent over a regigious medal on a chain to me, and WH can't understand why I wouldn't wear it and got rid of it. <P>At least through all this I am discovering that I am stronger than I thought. At some point I will have to switch to Plan B to protect myself. There really is a limit to how much disrespect I can take.<P>I am getting to the point where I am exhausted by all this. WH is too, since it's a lot of work dividing his time up between 2 women and his job. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SilverRose:<BR><B><P>One of OW's tactics to manipulate my WS is via religion. It's God's will that they were brought back together. Sure. She got WH to return to church after being away for many years. You would think that a return to faith would cause a man to do everything in his power to repair his marriage. Instead, God is used to justify his actions. OW actually sent over a regigious medal on a chain to me, and WH can't understand why I wouldn't wear it and got rid of it. <P>. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She is outright mocking God by doing this. First off, it is a sin to commit adultery and God does not bring people together in sin.["It's God's will that they were brought back together. "] So by saying that she is either calling Him a sinner or a liar. Nor does He forgive the unrepentent. Going to church does not give one a license to steal, quite the opposite!<P>Maybe she needs to see these verses:<P>1 John 2:4 <BR>The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.<P><BR>Hebrews 13:4 <BR>Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.<P>Matthew 7:16 <BR>By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?<P>Galatians 6: 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.<BR>

The conversation started last night, but didn't get too far, and then never got finished. WH came home in a bad mood. I didn't really want to have the conversation while he is in a bad mood and told him so, which only caused him to get angry and I ended up starting the conversation to try to keep some peace.<P>I began the talk and then he quickly negates everything I've said, saying that I've just listed the benefits of M, but haven't given him reasons to stay married. Of course by this time, I'm getting totally upset and can't think of any to give him. It is times like this when I get so upset and consider giving up.<P>I think that tonight the main reason I will give him to stay married to me is so he won't lose me. Essentially, I will allude to Plan B and let him know that unless he makes a commitment to me and our M, at some point I will not allow him to hurt me like this any more.<P>I wish he was begging me to take him back, promising me the stars, and telling me how he will change, but he's so lost in the fog, we aren't at the point.<P>Buffy, I am definately keeping my expectations low, this is obviously a losing battle I'm fighting. And I will have to work harder on avoiding the biggest LB trap I keep falling into, as you mentioned, saying anything negative about OW. He defends her like a teenager whose parents don't like his GF would. <P>Again, thanks to everyone for your wisdom, support, and encouragement.

Hi Silverrose:<P>I've been trying to get back to you for a couple of days but I either haven't been able to get in or not been able to post to MB for two days.<P>But I have thought about your problem somemore and have decided that I really agree with a lot of the posters here who say you shouldn't have to plead for your marriage or try to convince him of its merits and I think his asking your to do so is just him giving lip service to trying to save the marriage. <P>I know what you feel about his refuting all your arguments...my WS is a lawyer and he is very good at turning things so that they reflect what he wants them to...a smoke screen so to speak...even to himself.<BR>I don't try to outreason or outtalk a person who makes his living that way...it's senseless...and it is almost the same with a WS...in their mind they have a negative for everything good thing you can bring forth...carefully prepared and arranged for this encounter with you.<P>So don't let them have it....refuse to play...merely say that you realize the marriage had problems....and that both of you contributed to those problems...and you've been trying to work on your contributions and make the necessary changes...but that you realize that he can't find much value in the marriage at this time....and although you are willing to continue to work with him on the problems...you feel that in his present state of mind he is not capable of having realistic expectation regarding the marriage due to his relationship with OW....and until such time as he can end that relationship...you see no point in continuing to discuss where the marriage or you have failed....and when and if he ever decides he wants to work on the marriage, he can let you know...but that you have reached the point where you cannot continue to work on the marriage alone...and you are leaving the ball in his court....then walk away.<P>You don't even have to go to Plan B yet unless you just want to...you have drawn a line in the sand...gently but firmly...now stand on your side of the line and wait until he is willing to make the commitment to walk back across.<BR>If he is stubborn...like my WS...this could still take a while...and you may need to move into Plan B as you begin the process of moving away from him and regaining yourself.<P>None of this requires that you demean him or make threats or even try to punish him....you are merely saying that "I've tried to fix myself and the marriage for months...now it's your turn....and I'm giving you the freedom to do so." This may mean a return to OW but believe me it won't last...just have the courage to stick up for yourself and your belief in the marriage and in his eventual return to it's safe haven and to you.<P>You have been strong enough to try and fix this marriage up til now...now be strong enough now to let him do his part.<P>No begging, no pleading, no arguments, no demands or threats...but strength and dedication born in the change in you.<P>Faye<BR> <BR>

SilverRose,<P>Faye gave you some fabulous advice that will put the ball back in his court. Will you let us know what you decide to do and how it turns out? I have been thinking about you all week and hope this turns out well.<P>Thanks,<BR>Dana

Hi Silverrose:<P>Just wondering how things are going? Did you have the talk yet? Waiting to see how things went.<P>Faye<P>

Still no real progress on this yet. We talked a little bit each day on the weekend, finally ending on Sunday morning in a fight over a couple of our issues. <P>I wish I knew what to say to convince him that it is worth the risk, that after all we have been through with this, and all the talking and progress we have made, that we will come out of this stronger than ever if we stick together. <P>I suspect, but have no real evidence, that OW is pressuring him. Every now and then OW says she will leave him, for the sake of our marriage, of course. Isn't that noble of her? Hahaha. It's pretty obvious to me what a manipulative move that is, but he can't see it. That might be what is behind this sudden requirement that I convince him he should stay with me. I hope it is the case, as I think that might start to lift the fog.<P>For the time being, I'm going to continue with Plan A, to show by my actions how I've changed, that it's not all talk or just an act and empty promises. And I'm going to continue to not pressure him on getting rid of OW, that's a big LB, but once he says he's going to stay in our marriage, I will make it clear that our success is dependent on him having no further contact with OW.<P>My biggest fear is that this is all a farce, that he is staying with me for now for some reason unknown to me, all the while telling OW that he'll move back in with her any day, just as soon as he can dump me again. But that makes no sense either, since he had filed D papers against me and was out the door. If he was so certain, why didn't he just stay gone. There's got to be some doubt in his mind.<P>Thanks again for all your support and advise. It does all make sense to me.<p>[This message has been edited by SilverRose (edited September 24, 2001).]

I really find this hard to believe that HE expects YOU to convince him to stay. If he doesn't want to be there, he won't be there, physically or emotionally. There is nothing in this world that can MAKE another person do something they don't want to do.<P>You need to move on and start taking better care of yourself, loving yourself.<P>I need to move out of this forum and into the Divorced/Divorcing one because I have accepted that my marriage is over. My husband will not even discuss a reconciliation and I refuse to humiliate myself any further by trying to convince him that we had something worth saving.<BR>