I will have been on this forum for a year on Sept. 29. During that time, I've read countless posts and have assimilated a lot of information - although not all of it is neatly filed away.<P>One of the prominent personal characteristics discussed here is being a "controller." It appears to be equally distributed among BSs and WSs alike. In my case, my wife was always the controller - not only in our marriage, but in other aspects of her life as well. I attribute this at least partly to her childhood with an alcoholic mother - she doesn't want to similarly lose control, so she over-corrects. But I don't see this characteristic in either of her sisters. She's the middle one, so perhaps it can be a timing thing, or maybe it's not related at all.<P>Nonetheless, whenever she lost control of a discrete issue in the past (in a microscopic sense), she would display a certain amount of frustration, but resolutely do her best to regain control.<P>When we were fighting our son's illness, she took complete control of his care and did a fantastic job. I will be forever indebted to her for making his life as comfortable as possible and enabling us to enjoy him while we had him. When he died, I can't imagine the loss of control she must have felt.<P>Which brings me to my question: What happens when controllers lose control that can't be recovered? I don't want the obvious answer, I am looking for something deeper. I'm asking about the macroscopic sense - losing so much control or losing control over multiple aspects of one's life. In our case, it appears that the controller chose to diminish her sphere of control in order to regain control of the things she could - her personal life. Or was it really the opposite? Did she widen her reach to be able to gain control of new things to satisfy her control craving?<P>And what is the treatment? Deny control for things she shouldn't control or let her feed her craving by letting her believe she has control? <P>Additionally, what happens when two controllers compete with each other? (WS + OP)<P>I know, I'm analyzing again, but it's all in retrospect and with a eye toward the future.<P>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited September 21, 2001).]

Good questions, but sorry to have to answer your questions with a question of my own...<P>I have heard that the middle child is the one who is constantly the one looking for attention because they are not the oldest nor the youngest so they don't stand out in those ways.<P>Maybe your wife's control issues have brought way too much attention to her life and letting go is her way of developing a lower profile for herself?<P>IMHO, "controllers" seem to think they have it all together. That they have all the right answers. They know the right way to do everything, when there is really no one right way. As long as the goal is the same--to get from point A to point B, who cares what side streets we take? How do *I* know? I'm trying to quit the club myself!<P>So back to my initial point, when things fell apart in your Ws grasp of her life as she knew it, rather than admit she was losing it (control), she just displayed it through her behavior and you recognized a different pattern.<P>Anyways, hope my thoughts helped a bit. See ya WAT!<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited September 21, 2001).]

Dave,<P>You've been away a while and obviously thinking thinking thinking...... <P>I am a controller. Yes, I have opinions on just about everything. I feel like I have the right answers most of the time. <BR>What happens when I lose control of situations varies. I, often, will go into overdrive and analyze the situation and attempt to regain control. This is accompanied by not so pretty outbursts(yes, it was on my H's LB list). In the end, I may get my way but everybodyelse is miserable and, well, I end up being miserable also. <BR>Sometimes, I just shutdown. I'd rather not deal with what I can not control so I close off emotionally. Early on in my marriage, I realized I had no control (after repeated attmepts to gain control of the siuation), so I shut down so completely that I honestly couldn't tell you what I was feeling at any givin time. This proved to be very detrimental to my marriage.<BR>Losing control is a very difficult thing to handle. I feel anxious when this happens to the point of my chest becomming tight. My mind starts spinning extra cycles trying to figure out how to make things go my way(the right way no doubt ). This is when things start to get ugly because I stop thinking rationally and go on emotions. Operating off of emotions and excluding logic creates many negative consequences and after that happens all you try to do is save face - right or wrong. Possibly, pride gets mixed up in it all. It's really a mixed bag and hard to pin down.<P>I am the oldest(that's why I am so bossy), but I do have a middle child. He is a very loving child and he wants a lot of love. This kid needs the most attention. When things don't go his way, he acts out. If he is embarrased or his feelings are hurt, he acts out. You can see the regret later. Pain is magnified. If he feels less able or talented than others, he wants to quit. He is swayed by others easily. He is also a very creative child and talented in areas. I don't know if that is typical middle child but that's they way I see it. That's the way I see my sibling who is a middle child also.<P>My H gives me the control in a lot of situations. But, we have figured out over this last year that certain things are better left to him and certain things for me. The other stuff we try to POJA. I don't know what kind of treatment you could use other than for the controller to realize that it's a losing siuation to try and control everything.<P>Who really knows, Dave? It's all one great experiment.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by worthatry:<BR><B><BR>One of the prominent personal characteristics discussed here is being a "controller." It appears to be equally distributed among BSs and WSs alike. In my case, my wife was always the controller - not only in our marriage, but in other aspects of her life as well. I attribute this at least partly to her childhood with an alcoholic mother - she doesn't want to similarly lose control, so she over-corrects. But I don't see this characteristic in either of her sisters. She's the middle one, so perhaps it can be a timing thing, or maybe it's not related at all.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited September 21, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Dave,<P>Above is a partial quote from your post. The thing that struck me was that 'she over corrects'. Ok, here goes my theory. As a controller, I tend to over correct. However, I am the oldest. I saw a lot of myself in your description of your wife, yet I am the BS, but a wife and mother. I have been at death's door with loved ones (not with as close a family member as you have) several times. <P>The actions may be similar but the circumstances are different. So where is the point of concentration, the real reason? Not in the circumstances. The pattern is too varied. Yet it is not in the actions also because they tend to be similar to those not in her scenario.<P>But you did raise a thought about the fact that the loss of your son had a great impact on her. However, you also did say before that she had done similar and stepped out on someone once before. That would have been before your son's death. <P>I am not psyco analyzer but when I feel like I have lost control there have been times when I wanted to just shut down. Now it took a lot for me to get there & I had no real support getting back (H reacts to physical depression not emotional ones). In my case, my condition or reaction did not get H to move until I started to lose control of my physical self. Dave, thoughts of suicide ran quite these past few months for me. I now cry very very easily. I have posted about myself before so I won't go into more detail. Safe to say that I have a broken spirit that needs to be repaired and it has finally affected me physically. I am crying right now writing this because, that is just how I am. No longer the strong mom/worker/wife/friend/relative that can do all and take all. <P>For me I basically felt like I lost control to the point that I wonderered about some very bad thoughts. WS's who feel they are at their wits end think and plan about As? When BSs get to that point, what do they think about? In my case, it was not to act on an A (although the thought had crossed my mind several times, I just could not go through with it), but suicide did. <P>See Dave, I write this in hopes it may give you some insight. Though I don't know your wife, I do understand. The piece my H is not giving me is the emotional suppport. He knows it is hard for him and I even show him what I need, he changes it and often (lately) it has fallen way too short and left me where I am today. <P>As a 'controling' woman, I would say, find the emotional need she needs the most. Don't expoit it. Work with it. <BR>Gently. It could be as simple as saying, I love you while she rants and raves. After several of those incidents, she will only be able to recal her ranting and raving because you actually never said anything worth storing in her 'hate bank'. Oh yea, we all have one of those banks too.....<P>Well, those are my current thoughts. I have to get ready for work.<P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by worthatry:<BR><B>When we were fighting our son's illness, she took complete control of his care and did a fantastic job. I will be forever indebted to her for making his life as comfortable as possible and enabling us to enjoy him while we had him. When he died, I can't imagine the loss of control she must have felt.</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One question: Did you ever tell her this??? Well, the first part anyway, the part about her making your time with him so enjoyable for all of you, and his time left so comfortable in order to help him.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Which brings me to my question: What happens when controllers lose control that can't be recovered? I don't want the obvious answer, I am looking for something deeper. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dave,<BR> You say you don't want the obvious answer, but maybe the obvious answer IS the answer. Could it simply be that your W felt that she let your sons down, she let YOU down, and she "failed" herself (since she coudln't CONTROL his illness and recovery), and consequently, she doesn't DESERVE to stay in this M with you?<P>I, too, am the controlling one in our M, but I am also the BS, so my outlook is obviously different from your W's. However, I have been trying to formulate in my head a scenario to sense what your W would be thinking, feeling, while tending to a dying child, and WANTING - WILLING - so very much to be able to CONTROL his illness and MAKE him whole again, only to NOT see it happen.<P>Maybe she has gone to OM, because she has "given up" her resolve to be a controller....maybe only temporarily, in order to heal in her own soul, because of how terribly she feels she failed her family.....<P>Believe it or not, when controllers' lives come crashing down upon them, they need "down time" too, to gather up their reserves and find the will to get it all back under control again.......and if someone "strong, capable, compassionate, in control" (I know, BARF) comes along, it is "allowed" to let them take the reins for awhile. As I explained, maybe she chose it to be OM rather than YOu, cause she "let you down," and she can't live with that.<P>Dave, I have no crystal balls, or magic potion, I'm just throwing stuff out there, from a controlling woman's standpoint, hoping something will "spark" in your mind, maybe to let you see something you can connect to in your W. I pray she comes out of her "whatever she's in" soon!! For you and <son>'s sake.<P>Lupo

I can only speak from my experience, and yes, I *was* a controller.<P>I began to lose control when our son tried to hang himself. I took the reigns, much as your wife did, to find a cause for our son's distress... at the detriment of the rest of my family, I kept on, undaunted, for three years, until I found the cause. It meant missed hours at work, not taking care of myself, not taking care of our daughters, not taking care of our marriage. But the diagnosis was as troubling as the suicide attempt. Now we needed therapy, meds, special schooling -- you name it. Still, I did not take care of the rest of my life.<P>I cried rarely, felt nothing, became a numb, fat, sick woman. Yes, I'd had control of that situation, but not of my life. It was then that I fell into a trap of my own making and had an affair. You know the rest of the story.<P>LIFE beat me down, but it also gave me a gift. I learned that I NEVER WAS IN CONTROL in the first place. That was a lie I told myself to survive. <P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Dave, without knowing the day to day aspects of your family's life, I speculate that your W's detachment from her home and family have much to do with her reluctance and inability to deal with the death of your son. Knowing that she was the main and "responsible" caretaker of his well-being sets the conditions for a perfect scenario depending on the outcome of the patient. Together you and yours have demonstrated the teamwork and cooperation necessary for parents of children who suffer similiar cirumstances in order to allow the child the utmost chance for survival. Despite all your diligent efforts, your son met his demise. I'm sure that you, your wife and family were at odds with this despite the forewarnings. And, being that your wife was the primary caretaker, coming to terms with this "failure" to thrive may very well have been the hurdle that she could not clear.<P>Knowing very little of your marital background besides what I've already mentioned, I could be WAY off course and I apologize for the same. Yet, I have a distinct feeling that much of your partner's problems lies within the passing of your son. She may not want to admit the same but I'm sure that she has not had an adequate closure on this critical life-altering occurrance.<P>Take care, WAT......and know that I feel your pain.<P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B><P><BR>[This message has been edited by GeezLouise (edited September 22, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by GeezLouise (edited September 22, 2001).]

Thanks all for your insights.<P>To Lupo - yes I have communicated that thought to her many times - but to this day, I'm almost positive she didn't "hear" it. This was a team effort and she acknowledged my contributions as well. Nonetheless, I really doubt she had/has the feeling that she failed the family and thus doesn't deserve us. This attitude doesn't fit with her overall presentation, but I follow your logic. Clearly our son's death was the catalyst, but our pre-existing marriage issues that festered while we were preoccupied with caring for our sons during the long ordeal represented the weak foundation for dealing with the crisis. I hadn't thought of your explanation that she's temporarily given up control to OM, and it makes sense. But, she sure is still trying to control me.<P>Sheryl - eventually, my wife's pattern may follow yours to a certain extent. The key point being when you learned you were never in control. My wife hasn't gotten there yet. Her stubborness may delay it a long time.<P>Thanks also GL, L, Bin, and Cleo.<P>Keeping with the WS script, my wife has accused ME of being the controlling one, but this accusation only surfaced a year after the affair was in progress, soon after I sent the Plan B letter. Prior to that I was "abusive," but I don't hear this one anymore.<P>Dave

Hi Dave,<P>I'm BR and I'm a controller! <P>If your wife grew up in an alcoholic home, I would be willing to bet that she's a pretty hardcore controller. Most of us in Al-Anon who have lived with alcoholics become control freaks, and those who grew up with the disease, and had their psychological formation in a sick environment are desperate to gain control of their lives.<P>At the root of the need to control is fear. It may be an unamed, undefineable fear...but it is fear none the less. <P>I can speak from my own experiences and life lessons. I learned that most of my life was motivated out of fear of something terrible happening. If you had asked me what I was so afraid of, I would have thought you were crazy. I spent the first 10 years of my adult life after leaving home desperately trying to control everyone and everything around me. I learned as a child that when we control every detail of every situation around us, including other people, that it is love. So when my H came along, I spent most of my effort and energy into trying to control everything regarding him.<P>You see, if I could just get everything just right...then I could be happy. And then I'd be safe. But the frustrating thing was that other people didn't listen to me and didn't do what I told them to. If they had JUST done what I had advised, if they had just listened to me....and you know what Dave? Resentments boiled up inside of me against all those people who didn't go along with me. <P>Frustration abounded. But I'm a stubborn woman. And I kept trying over and over (insanity - doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results) and the anger and the resentment against those in my life who screwed up my perfect little situations and made it hard for me to control just boiled over.<P>Do you know what depression is? Depression is anger turned inward.<P>After years of this type of living, my anger grew to be too much. But you see, I was at war with myself. Growing up in an dry, but alcoholic home, I learned that I was lesser than others. I wasn't deserving of love. And so all those people who didn't go along with my controlling (in my mind) didn't do so because I wasn't good enough. They didn't recognize me or my opinions as worthy.<P>So while on one hand, I was self-righteous and superior in knowing what was the right thing to do in any situation, always in control, making things always perfect (in reality, full of disrespectful judgements and selfish demands)....<P>On the other hand I was dying in side from anger and feelings of worthlessness.<P>I beat myself up daily for my failures to make things perfect, but at the same time, I blamed everyone else for my unhappiness. But if they loved me....if I was worth loving....then they would have wanted to make me happy....<P>Imagine living everyday, every hour, every minute, with an underlying tone of fear. Fear of failure, fear of not being good enough, fear of disaster....this is what drives that need to control.<P>The day that I realized that I had no control was the worst day of my life. The day I realized that my H didn't love me, and never would, and that I couldn't do anything about it. That I would spend the rest of my life, married to man that didn't love me, and that there was NO WAY to make things perfect was the most devastating realization of my life. You see, I lived my life for my husband. I had set him up as my Higher Power, and the loss of that dream was a nightmare that my mind just couldn't handle.<P>That day, I fell into a horrible, unimaginable depression. It lasted 2 years, untreated. I can not even begin to express what it was like and what happened to me and my family during that time. It took me another 2 years to recover from it.<P>I finally reached a point where I had to decide if I wanted to live or die. I realized that death was what I wanted...but that my children would be without me.<P>So then it became more painful to stay depressed than it was painful to change. That was my rock bottom.<P>But let me tell you Dave, my depression was not numbing zombie like emotions - even though thats what people thought I was - I couldn't carry on simple conversations - even going grocery shopping was too much emotionally...<P>But it was my fear, my overwhelming anger and bitterness and my hopelessness at not being able to control my life that was eating at me every second.<P>During that time, I did have relationships with people over the internet that were far more important to me than my marriage. I put all my energy into those people - and neglected everything else. I spent my entire life on the computer with faceless people I had never met, because I felt that THEY loved me.<P>Now I realize, that in the depths of my despair, those people filled needs inside of me that had never been filled.<P>I'll say this though....some of my needs that hadn't been filled were my own fault. Yep. I hadn't allowed my husband to fill my needs because I was angry at him for not doing everything the way I wanted him to do it. The same goes for ever other relationship in my life.<P>There was something terribly broken in me Dave. And the mindscreaming fear and drive to control were the result.<P>For me, the answer was anti-depressants, therapy, and the 12 steps of Al-Anon. But these were things I had to choose to do. My husband, who didn't understand what I was going through, did try, badly, to get me help. Nothing he did worked or got through to me until I decided to get help. And once I started feeling better, there was no way I ever wanted to go back to that...so I've been motivated ever since to work on myself pretty darn hard.<P>I wouldn't be surprised to find out that for your wife, the loss of your son was an event that just pushed her over the edge. She may be very angry at God, angry at you, and angry at many other people in her life - all for not going along with her, loving her, not doing things her way, because she is afraid.<P>And see, she got proved right. Something bad DID happen.<P>It doesn't necessarily make logical sense to a mentally healthy person. But I can instinctively understand why she might make a connection like that.<P>I don't know what to tell you Dave, other than I do know, from watching my own parents lose a child (my 19 year old sister) that the loss of a child is probably one of the most devastating things anyone can face. And this event may have been the one thing that finally crushed the brittle facade of control, perfection and normalacy in your wife's mind. <P>I do understand why Steve H. had you Plan A for so long. When I started coming out of my depression, I had many memories of my husband doing simple loving things that at the time, I rejected outright or ignored. But those things did eventually make delayed love deposits. But I had to change ALOT of my own thinking and ways of treating my husband, and learning to let go of my overwhelming resentments against him (having nothing to do with his affair) before that happened.<P>I suspect that there is probably some sort of depression that your wife is medicating with the OM. This isn't a normal affair, at least IMHO. <P>I'm not a psychiatrist, so I won't even try to guess what kind of scenario may play out in your wife's life. I can only hope that maybe some of my own story might give you a little insight into what might be going on with her.<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

BR - Wow. Very, very instructional. The parallels are spooky.<P>You have validated my thesis that I have been running thru my mind for over a year. Thank you for your insight.<P>I can see that I have already made the right choices - leave her alone to find herself in her own way and time. I can do this very well.<P>Thanks again,<BR>Dave

Got to get to sleep Dave, but wanted you to know that I was reading. I don't have any wise words to say. Just want you to know that I'm out here and praying for us all. Too tired to analyze the above (and too busy giving snl grief) but I'm signing off now. Hugs! <P>Deb