Hi all,<P>Just a quick question. I'm a WS in recovery for several months now, and I was wondering what things other WS have done, or BS have done for WS, to help them get past 'the fog'. <P>Every once in a while, the fog comes back. It's whispy and thin and doesn't last long, but it's effects are strong. <P>Time seems to help... but I wonder if it ever will completely go away to the point where I never think of it again. Brutally chopping out a happy and loving person in you life (the OW) is very difficult and the emotions run strong. I've suppressed them very well to now, but I need to get them Gone for Good. And no, religion is not my cup of tea, so praying won't do it for me. I need my own internal strength to keep me going.<P>I'm going back to counseling today with my wife. We are getting better, I think. If anybody can suggest anything for me here, I'll bring it up and see if they go for it.<P>Thanks for your ideas,<P>-Venizeio

Interesting question, essentially the one underlying the whole concept of MB...that love is a decision. Kinda goes along with cali's soulmate question, and even wats controller question. What is the basis for human bonding, how should it look, how should it feel. Questions I have been struggling with (male ws) for a year. I guess I am pretty much where you are now, no contact (6 weeeks), trying to make myself "fit" in the world the way "everyone" else says I should. Got no real answers for you, would be so easy if we all had "switches" we could just flip to program us the "right" way. Of course, we wouldn't be human, we'd be robots, and therein lies the problem. MB is a reprogramming (marital counselling in general) attempt, IF there is nothing inherently wrong with your mental health, and IF it does make a difference (in bonding) who the other human being is, then the goal is to convince one to deny their feelings. The idea being feelings are untrustworthy......of course the goal is to have feelings for your current spouse, so this is a problem in assumptions re human bonding.<P>Personally I think it is unhealthy to "make" yourself (or someone else) be a lifemate. By make, I mean the feelings of deep bonding are not there, only the cognitive will to "make" it work is there. I do think humans are messy enough, and feelings confusing enough (to undertstand correctly sometimes) that it is worthwhile to be sure you in fact are not in-love with your spouse. I don't particularly think people get married cause they are in-love all that often. People typically get married young, and more often than not are in love with themselves, are in-lust, or talk themself (or are talked into) into it for a variety of reasons, (often having to do with having had sex with them), or one (or both) are simply not marriage material as they either have their own serious issues, or do not even know who they are yet. This pretty much insures a lot of messed up marriages (in the sense of fitting someone)someone). People really do (generally) a pretty poor job of mate selection. And unfortuneately a first marriage )especially if entered into young... is kinda the last part of "growing" up. So what do you do when you realize you probably would not choose this person if you had it to do all over again (not cause they are a bad person necessarily, but because the marriage doesn't fit psychologically). Well you try to make it fit, by applying the behaviour which has been observed in marriages that do fit (MB in other words), or you seek out external constraints such as religion. Problem is, none of this will ever make you fit someone, any more than you can change your race, your body morphology, your biochemistry, your intelligence, or anything else about you. Your psychology is FIXED, there is a little leeway, but it is essentially fixed, and it either meshes (fits) your partner or it does not. And that IMO is where the feelings of soulmate, in-love, oneflesh, etc. come from...how good the fit is. You cannot fake it, but you can (if both really work hard) find an accomodation with your spouse. If for whatever reason, two just cannot stand divorcing (often having to do with having children), then you accept you will never be in-love, and you just do "decide" to love, and craft as plesant and tolerable a marriage as possible. <P>That IMO is what you are dealing with. The "fog" will never leave, cause you know what it feels like to be in-love. At best after a long time (but maybe never) you may develop a pretty good caring for a spouse, which works good enough, and is based mostly on having spent a lot of time and effort with them, and you have an investment which you will be more and more unwilling to give up, for the risk of building a new one, even if it is with someone you do fit. The variables here are what underly affairs of the heart (as opposed to sex/thrill junkies), and are why the Harley's are so adamant about affair proofing. It is hard enough to be married, and "feel" it somehow isn't quite right.... but ya kinda just keep on doing it, being the responsible human you are, and receptive to the peer pressure of your culture to stay married. But if you allow yourself to become aware of one who truly fits you (there is always the undertainty, cause feelings are tough to nail down accurately), then you are in serious trouble. With a crushing load of ethical, moral, personal issues that must be resolved if you are ever to be happy (as well as the effects on others you arer connected to). <P>So the answer IMO to your question boils down to this. First you must decide whether divorce is an option, if it never is, then (as much as possible) that is part 1 of leaveing the fog (which is not fog at all, it is your feelings telling you where you belong psychologically), if divorce is an option, then you have a different task, you (and spouse) must figure out (using MB is as good a test as any) whether you are ever going to be in-love...if you find it..great ow will vanish from your heart....or you are going to accept an EN contract (quid pro quo) type marriage, in which case you commit to working very hard everyday on making it "plesant" and discipline yourself not to think about in-love (because it will never go away, but it will diminish with time as most pain does). There is no magic formula, it is just following the rules everyday, no LB, meeting EN's, rules of protection, etc. Is the same thing you do when you have a job that is not the one you "love" (as many do) you choose a good attitude, make the best of it, and you will be a lot happier than if you allow yourself to dwell on the might have beens.

Oh, let me squeeze in here between my two favorite voices on this board!!<P>Greeting fellas. SnL, once again makes a very good point. And no, V., it isn't like getting to flip a switch. Believe me I wish I could. I think one thing that is important to understand and to move on is to realize you won't ever forget them. Part of them will always be with you. You may always love them. Trying to fight it or forget it is wasted energy. Try to accept that as a gift. Sometimes it is a weighty gift to carry around. But love is always good and always sacred if it gives you any joy. You don't have to tell anyone that you have this little, special place in your heart. It is for you. However, learning to keep it and not let it devour you whole is a challenge, I'm finding.<P>SnL, I'm at the 6 wk mark myself and I feel the pain and grief and at times, utter misery at the loss of my "soulmate." It is very hard to have know that perfect kind of love and then have it be gone. I don't expect to ever be over it. But I acpect to survive. Sometimes just that is a victory.

Gee Sno, and SnL,<P>We three are a merry mixed up bunch, no? It is interesting to find a group of people who are all so analytical and practical about something so wishy washy as emotions.<P>(Snl, that post was awesome. I'm going to keep that in my personal secret folder, stuff I look at periodically to see where my heart and head was at a particular date. You guys/gals should try that too, it is very interesting and useful for me.)<P>I agree with you two. There is no switch to flip, however, I find it very difficult to _want_ to bury emotions under responsibility and morals and societal respect. I guess, I am working at not LB's, using MB principals, etc and making sure my marriage can be really really loving and in-love.<P>I guess what it comes down to is we all have to make a personal decision with our own comfort level. You can leave the marriage, Ta-ta!, to be with the OW/OM permanently (if you can live with that guilt or remorse), or you can try to fix the marriage (for marriage's sake), and even if the marriage doesn't work out you can once again, stay or go on your own comfort level. <P>I'm beginning to realize it is really just a personal choice here. How comfortable are you living in a 'pleasant' but un-loving marriage? How comfortable are you leaving your marriage before you give it a shot? These are personal questions and I think, honestly now that I am without the OW, that having the OPerson in your life absolutely f**ks up that ability to make any decision. I now realize, to me, that THAT is the FOG. It took a trial separation and counseling and letting go of the OW to realize this.<P>So now I look back at this topic and I am impressed and I realize certain things more clearly. Even though I just came back from a counseling session 10 minutes ago, and I desperately want to work on my marriage, I KNOW that neither I, nor my wife, want to be in an un-loving but pleasant, working and sexual relationship unless LOVE is there. That is our choice, that is who we are, and we won't feel good unless we try to see if we can work on it.<P>I would define The FOG as the inability of the BS to make a personal choice, because the WS is there, in your eyes all the time. Personally, I still think it is a tragedy to deny oneself their true feelings, as long as you are sure of them. I guess MB provides a method to understand that better.<P>Thanks!<P>-V, <BR>a little clearer everyday, but not much happier yet.

Venizio, are you SURE we didn't meet up in Indianapolis last October???? ;-)<P>I don't want to admit to my fog as being WITH my OM. My OM often said that was his case. But I say, whatever you are with, it's easier to stay with. I feel as though his W had the horridly unfair advantage of living in the same house as him and seeing him every day and night. I haven't SEEN him since last March! I don't think he could face saying to her, "I want to leave," and then watch her implode.<P>Tell me V and SnL, if you came out from work and found HER just standing there against your car in the parking lot, giving you that look, wouldn't you start re-thinking things?? I'm not saying that is the way to go. But I often wonder if my one fault in the "limbo" time was not forcing him to face me. <P>Personally, I felt clear with OM. I felt like I was a person I liked, I wasn't afraid, I wasn't self conscious. I wouldn't say I'm in a fog now with my H. But let's just say that life has a little less color now.<P>I don't want to bury or give up my feelings for my OM either. They are all I have now. Just tell yourself you don't have to. Then take it day by day. Eventually those feelings may only come out when you choose to take them out.

V, Snobird, SnL,<P>Just a quick comment. Harley's approach to MB recognizes just what you are saying, that is why he pushes no contact. In one of the articles he states that there will always be a part of the OP within the WS. It won't "just vanish", and therefore no contact is really the only way to rebuild a marriage.<P>It would seem all are in agreement.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

V,<P>As a WS who sees the OW as someone who literally reached in to the bowels of a serpent and pulled me to safety, i had an increadibly difficult time not feeling as though i was leaving the greatest woman in the world behind. she was the best friend, confidant, lover and supporter anyone would have given their life for..<P>why wasnt my wife those things? In part because i wasnt to her what i was to OW. so in that humble admission i released the one who "Saved" me and embraced the serpent. i have wrestled with the beast and become more of the man she desired and she in return is begining to become the woman i have yearned for. <P>the harley concept isnt that you choose to love, its that you can choose who you allow yourself to be in love with. if you dont protect the environment which will allow your wife to become that person, if you dont lead the way there by exampling the expected effort youve failed. <P>harley gives a concentrated version of a life style that provides for the mutual education of H and W on the idea that by not care taking the percieved needs of their spouse, they leave an opening , a breach in security, for another person to do so. fulfilling those needs is done by choosing to allow another to be the one who meets those needs and allowing them to do so.. <P>the love bank concepts then takes over, as they meet those needs your feeling for them change, and you without conscience decision or analysis fall "In Love" with them. that is also the premis for why people suddenly find themselves in love with another person, not by design but because they met those need. <P>Be consciece of who your allowing to meet your important needs, guard against the OP doing so. encourage your Spouse to do it. be gracious and greatful when they do and open your heart to it.<P>once you have more recent history with your wife that is pleasing you will lose the fog. its like the bank account, right now you have two open accounts, one that is low so you draw from it (wife) one that is high and in pleasing to you (OW). if OW isnt depositing any more while the balance may not go down, it wont go up, and bank charges will soon overcome the interest. as W builds her account up, it will be the actively accessed account the one you monitor and see as growing with potential. that takes patients and commitment, but it is what happens.<P>good luck friends.<P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz<BR><p>[This message has been edited by chazbutler (edited September 21, 2001).]

Guys, I'm feeling a bit depressed. I've been reading several of these topics and I have a couple retorical question/statement.<P>Why can't we just be with one we love?? Why do have to work so hard?? Who invented this "marriage" thing anyway???? I wish we could all just have what we want. And I wish that I didn't want what I can't have.<P>......so what was that about a fog, V?? Make some horn noises for me so I can find the shore!!!

So chaz, are you saying one can be equally married to anyone? It is all just work? If so, you are correct, but the consensus seems to be it does matter who you are in love with (re the work, is easier with some, harder with others, and impossible with some). So if we are gonna equate love with work and protection why not choose the one who is the least work, and who you most feel like protecting? Further if the ow "saved" you, how is it she was able to, and your wife not able to? Lastly if you could start over with all the knowledge you have of yourself, (but not w, or ow) would you still choose a relationship with your w?

Over the past 5 years my H and I have sunk slowly into marriage h***. There was/is so much anger, complacency, low expectations, high expectations, and frustration...<P>I have heard all WS's say they were 'dead' and the OP helped them feel alive...free again...Would it surprise you to know I felt 'dead' too? I would imagine many BS's have this same dead feeling.<P>Ruiz would say that this is the human condition...this is how we 'domesticate' one another...and that out of 'fear' of not getting what we want in a relationship...our of 'fear' that one person loves another more...a relationship develops where one person 'controls' another...and control goes both ways...I may have been more outwardly controlling...but my H sure passively-aggressively controlled me as well...we both contributed to the environment of our marriage.<P>Because we all live in a fog of our beliefs...(mitote). This fog is all the things we believe...where we got our beliefs...how we see ourselves...how we believe others see us...BUT IT IS NOT TRUE...until we break the old agreements we have with ourselves and lose the fear...we will continue to live in our fog...and we cannot truly share love with others...<P>The minute d-day occurred my fog started to lift...all my beliefs about my H...about my marriage...about myself were changed and I had to formulate new ones...<P>Paradigm shift!<P>How do you make decisions? Figure out by which principles you want to live...all your decisions and priorites should then be based on those principals...(this is straight out of Covey---7 Habits of Highly Effective People).<P>Decisions should not be based on shouldas and couldas...but your principles.<P><BR>Cali<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>So chaz, are you saying one can be equally married to anyone? It is all just work?</B><P>well there is willingness and motiviation to be considered but the concept holds true for me, ever been strangely attracted to a co-worker or student someone fat or just ugly yet there is something there? it seem obvious to me now, they were meeting some need for me in that time and space i allowed them to meet a need unconsciencely not fearing the ramifications.<P><B>If so, you are correct,</B><P>why cant people just stop right after they say that, my life would be so much easier LOL<P><B>but the consensus seems to be it does matter who you are in love with (re the work, is easier with some, harder with others, and impossible with some). So if we are gonna equate love with work and protection why not choose the one who is the least work,</B><P>do you value most that which your work the least to attain? that would represent a wierd value system that might need some adjustment all around.<P>I would suggest that at the time the choice was originally made, the BS was the easiest to love and be loved by. <P>now there shouldnt be a choice, it is the irrisponsible acts of the WS and the BS for not taking care of the marriage in a way that protected it from another fulfilling the needs of the one or the other. now there is another involved and split emotions all around.<P><B>and who you most feel like protecting?</B><P>who you feel like protecting? what about who you promised to protect? entered in to a commitment of covenant to protect? feeling are fleeting and subject to change as we clearly see. feelings can be wrong and manipulated by external forces. <P>what matters is whether your an honorable and loving person who does what is right and reaps the love of others in doing so.<P><B>Further if the ow "saved" you, how is it she was able to, and your wife not able to?</B><P>when i called myself on not being to my wife what i was for the OW that is what i was getting at. Motivation is the answer.. she had no motivation to do so.. My task today is to be for my W what i was for OW. so that she is motivated to be that person for me.<P><B>Lastly if you could start over with all the knowledge you have of yourself, (but not w, or ow) would you still choose a relationship with your w?</B><P>Yes, more than ever yes, when i made that choice 12 years ago i had no idea of her resolve, and her ability to forgive. If nothing else, i know now that even in the face of betrayal, i can believe in her. Now i have something to prove.<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

cali, is it inherent in the paradigm shift one may no longer choose their current marital partner? Isn't that also inherent in personal change as well, that the basis one chose the marriage will no longer exist with the new mindset? What does ruiz say about this? One of the things that troubles me (philosophically) about all these marital books, is the assumption that the marriage you are in is the right one for you, and that the goal is to make yourself fit the marriage....rather than assess first whether you would choose the marriage given your new understanding and growth. I think it is this sorta unspecified, but very real bias, that sets off the human conflicts, we all want to choose what we want, freely, and without coercion....but there is a lot of pressure in our culture to keep people married, rather than keep them emotionally healthy (as in happy). The trouble is, often enuf it is true, the marriage they have is the right one, but my observation is very often it is not as well, but that outcome gets very little support.....meaning people can and do, stay longer than they should in many marriages as a result of this bias in counselling and reconcillation methodology. Until divorce is not a dirty word, and a legitimate (when appropriate) outcome in seeking marital resolutions we have a lopsided bias in resolving marital conflict.

Wow, I generated a topic people are interested in! Is that good or bad, I wonder. <P>Aside: Sno, are you sure you're not a Canuck? you never lived up here in the great white north and moved back south to Illinois? <P>I agree with the paradigm shift that occurred after D-day and during counseling. What I found funny is that once I got OW out of the picture, a lot of the things I resented and was afraid to talk about in my marriage came out on the table, and were met with much sympathy and understanding. There was anger, but it went away quickly. <P>The fog kinda started to fizzle then. Wow, my wife is still a really cool person, I realized. Do I love her? I don't know anymore, but I KNOW that I am not the type of person to give up something because it is hard to do. I have now created a safe environment for my wife and I to understand each other, to see if there is a reason for us to stay together. It no longer feels like cheating! Yes, I still love the OW, but I realized I was never giving her 100% of me either, and that is not fair.<P>My wife and I will continue to examine our relationship. It is hard, it is painful, it bothers me to no end, but I realize that even if there is a 5% chance that she can become my soul-mate, that is a chance I have to take. If not for her, then for my daughter.<P>If during this time of fog-free introspection we both see that we should separate, well, I will not feel like a cheating scoundrel or liar or anything bad. I have done things the proper, adult way and I can be respected for it. Only then will I ever feel content with the OW (if she is still around).<P>I will never lose the bits of fog I have in my heart that make me cry on my way to work or cry when I am walking alone but I can at least feel good that I put in a real, honest effort to understand who I am, why I was unhappy (ie that I didn't make up excuses), etc.<P>I am a better person than before. I am willing to accept that I will 1st give my wife a chance, and only after that can I give the OW anything resembling a real relationship. No fog, just a clear path to follow.<P>I guess to me it is like buying a red car because I really like red. In 2 years am I going to get rid of my car, just because I saw a nice shiny black one? Maybe I really Love Black! I could swap cars, but my personality would make me check if I'm doing it for the right reasons. What does your personality say? Mine says, hey, red's not sooo bad, why not see if you still like it in a few months? I need to just be sure!<P>Do what is right for you.<P>-V<P>ps. Sno, don't despair. If your OM really loved his wife, well, that is why he went back. Plain and simple. If he really loves you, well, he WILL come back, I'm sure. Not much consolation I'm sure, but this summer I saw and heard of 10 affairs in my friends and family's lives, and they were all very similar. If you ever want to talk, you can email me at stubbybeerbottle@hotmail.com (sorry, another canadianism, eh?), but I probably won't be around this weekend! Have a good weekend anyhow! Do something good for yourself.<BR>

snl...So chaz, are you saying one can be equally married to anyone? It is all just work?<P>chaz...well there is willingness and motiviation to be considered but the concept holds true for me, ever been strangely attracted to a co-worker or student someone fat or just ugly yet there is something there? it seem obvious to me now, they were meeting some need for me in that time and space i allowed them to meet a need unconsciencely not fearing the ramifications.<P>snl..That seems a very mechanistic view of human relations, almost just a formula. After 51 years, my assessment based on my experience as a human being is that human psychology is not nearly that simple. I know scores of women (meet many in my job), that I would not have a relationship no matter how much they tried to meet my EN, and even a few who I detest from the git go (ya know, the kind of person that raises the hairs on your neck...so what is that all about? Am I just mentally ill, or am I recieveing information that is important but not easily described?).<P>snl...but the consensus seems to be it does matter who you are in love with (re the work, is easier with some, harder with others, and impossible with some). So if we are gonna equate love with work and protection why not choose the one who is the least work,<P>chaz...do you value most that which your work the least to attain? that would represent a wierd value system that might need some adjustment all around.<P>snl...No, that represents good mental health, one should always attempt to obtain a goal using the least amount of resources consistent with your ethical paradigms. We call that THRIFT.<P>chaz...now there shouldnt be a choice, it is the irrisponsible acts of the WS and the BS for not taking care of the marriage in a way that protected it from another fulfilling the needs of the one or the other. now there is another involved and split emotions all around.<P>snl....That implies once married you cannot ever leave, is that what you mean? Suppose a woman marries, and um.... her H slaps her around once a day to keep her in line..... never knowing this is not ok (by others with different standards), she lives her life this way. I don't think people in-love need to be protected. I think it is marriages that are accomodations that are at risk, cause one spouse may through the normal course of human interaction become aware that all is not right, and the marriage is then put into question. An A is just one of the risks of this process, because bonding is what humans do. But unless spouses are able to see other people and interact with them, they have no basis to assess the health of their own marriage. Which simply means dysfunctional marriages are far more likely to stay so, and the submissive spouse taken advantage of. Affairs themselves are philosophically wrong, but they are absolutely essential to the health of the human race, they are the means by which folks find the courage to leave a marriage. Sometimes that is good, sometimes it is not. But even you chaz, readily acknowledge your marriage would have no chance at all except for what you learned from your affair.<P>chaz...who you feel like protecting? what about who you promised to protect? entered in to a commitment of covenant to protect? feeling are fleeting and subject to change as we clearly see. feelings can be wrong and manipulated by external forces. <P>snl....So why aren't the feelings for your w wrong, and fleeting, maybe you are under her spell/manipulation (many are)? Feelings are essential to good mental health, and one must listen to them closely, they are always important. Of course what you do with them is important too. But I do agree one does have obligations to a spouse in terms of committment, but that does not include staying married to them if you do want to be married to them. However, there is a right way and many wrong ways (IMO) to end a marriage. The right way is radical honesty, enough time to be sure, and poja the marriage itself (takes enthusiastic choice of both, everydaay choosing the marriage, otherwise it should end, sacrificial marriage is harmful to both parties, whether one makes themself do it or not).<P>chaz...what matters is whether your an honorable and loving person who does what is right and reaps the love of others in doing so.<P>snl... I agree, but I suspect we differ on the definition of right. I for example will not accept (although I did for 23 years, so I am patient) someone staying married to me that did not enthusiastically want me (and I them). That is not something you can decide, cause enthusiasm is a feeling.<P>snl..Further if the ow "saved" you, how is it she was able to, and your wife not able to?<P>chaz...when i called myself on not being to my wife what i was for the OW that is what i was getting at. Motivation is the answer.. <P>snl...Smoke and mirrors. If it makes no difference who you interact with, then you should have had the motivation to act the same way with your wife, and got the same result. But you are right motivation is part of it, and it is a function of how well we fit someone IMO.<P>chaz..Lastly if you could start over with all the knowledge you have of yourself, (but not w, or ow) would you still choose a relationship with your w?<P>chaz.....Yes, more than ever yes, when i made that choice 12 years ago i had no idea of her resolve, and her ability to forgive. If nothing else, i know now that even in the face of betrayal, i can believe in her. Now i have something to prove.<P>snl...That is good. But I gotta ask two things, one is does this mean you used the ow for your own needs, and if so, why would anyone want to be married to you? Not to mention the huge debt you have to the ow, how do you intend to pay it? Relationships of that sort are supposed to lead to marriage are they not? So you decieved her if you weren't serious, correct? (hopefully she dumped you, that leaves you off the hook, or you found out she was a predator...was she?). Lastly are you suggesting the basis for your marriage is now to prove something? What kind of marriage is that? IMO the ONLY basis (although I know others make other choices) is the enthusiastic (radical honesty requires truthfullness, and a lot of soul searching), choice by both parties for each other. Let me ask you a question, if both of you would be happier married to other people, should you divorce?<P>chaz, I really appreciate your willingness to tackle my questions, and this is my way of trying to figure out my life, just as you all have yours. Hopefully I don't offend you, and I lean pretty hard on you, sometime others take offense, you seem ok with me. I know everyone's life is important to them, and most of us are in serious pain of one kind or another, I hope you realize I do not wish you or your marriage anything but the best of outcomes.<P>

V, you're a sweetheart. No, I haven't been to Canada, but if you keep being so nice, I may have to make a trip!! (JOKE--Tacky as it is). I have very much appreciated your words of wisdom and encouragement. I'm not looking for easy answers. But sometimes I just need to stomp my foot and say, "damn, damn, damn, DAMN!!" until I feel better.<P>I WILL drop you a note this weekend and you can get back to me Monday. <P>As for doing something good for myself.....I think the cat box needs to be mined....:-P

<B>snl you made resort to a word processor</B><P>Snl…chaz, I really appreciate your willingness to tackle my questions, and this is my way of trying to figure out my life, just as you all have yours. Hopefully I don't offend you, and I lean pretty hard on you, sometime others take offense, you seem ok with me. I know everyone's life is important to them, and most of us are in serious pain of one kind or another, I hope you realize I do not wish you or your marriage anything but the best of outcomes.<P>Chaz…if what you said didn’t sound so familiar as if I had already said is somewhere before I wouldn’t bother, but much of what you say is what I have already spoken aloud or to myself. It’s a good fight, one worth having no matter the outcome. You will grow from it no doubt.<P>snl...So chaz, are you saying one can be equally married to anyone? It is all just work? <P>chaz...well there is willingness and motivation to be considered but the concept holds true for me, ever been strangely attracted to a co-worker or student someone fat or just ugly yet there is something there? it seem obvious to me now, they were meeting some need for me in that time and space i allowed them to meet a need unconsciously not fearing the ramifications. <P>snl..That seems a very mechanistic view of human relations, almost just a formula. After 51 years, my assessment based on my experience as a human being is that human psychology is not nearly that simple. <P>Chaz…yet it can be, Hollywood makes millions each year applying the same formula over and over pulling on the desires an emotions of people once you know the formula you can use it. I hate that I buy Pepsi because Shakira is one sexy woman wow!<P>Snl…I know scores of women (meet many in my job), that I would not have a relationship no matter how much they tried to meet my EN, and even a few who I detest from the git go (ya know, the kind of person that raises the hairs on your neck...so what is that all about? Am I just mentally ill, or am I receiving information that is important but not easily described?). <P>Chaz…so I hear that the opposite of what I proposed is true are you saying that what I proposed is never true? I would emphasize that likely its not an often occurrence but one that happens.<P>snl...but the consensus seems to be it does matter who you are in love with (re the work, is easier with some, harder with others, and impossible with some). So if we are gonna equate love with work and protection why not choose the one who is the least work, <P>chaz...do you value most that which your work the least to attain? that would represent a weird value system that might need some adjustment all around. <P>snl...No, that represents good mental health, one should always attempt to obtain a goal using the least amount of resources consistent with your ethical paradigms. We call that THRIFT. <P>Chaz…thrift? No that’s how you keep the greatest quantity of what you have worked hard to attain. Overcoming obstacles and beating back adversity is what creates value.. in your life are you really suggesting that the things you value the most are the things given you? Things you didn’t have to fight for at all? In competition you would genuinely appreciate a no show more than a competent opponent? Or say in a discussion of values a person who simply agrees with your POV? Having had and seen you in action I don’t believe that. Not for I minute.<P>chaz...now there shouldn’t be a choice, it is the irresponsible acts of the WS and the BS for not taking care of the marriage in a way that protected it from another fulfilling the needs of the one or the other. now there is another involved and split emotions all around. <P>snl....That implies once married you cannot ever leave, is that what you mean? Suppose a woman marries, and um.... her H slaps her around once a day to keep her in line..... never knowing this is not ok (by others with different standards), she lives her life this way. <P>Chaz… sans the 3 A’s yep (Abuse, Addiction, Adultery..owch) if the relationship is abusive, emotionally, spiritually, physically then its appropriate to get out. All attempts to repair should be made in all cases, mine was extremely abusive emotionally, but has been dramatically improved primarily due to my diligence and personal growth and my wife’s willingness to allow that growth.<P>Snl..I don't think people in-love need to be protected. <P>Chaz…Kind of like the US borders right? Hmm doesn’t sound right to me. How about protecting the environment of those in love? Defending from outside attack and influence.<P>Snl…I think it is marriages that are accommodations that are at risk, cause one spouse may through the normal course of human interaction become aware that all is not right, and the marriage is then put into question. An A is just one of the risks of this process, because bonding is what humans do.<P>Chaz.. humans have the ability to choose their paths, who the are bonding with is a definite choice teaching my son to avoid those who will create trouble in his life is clearly an obligation I have as his father to do a better job at it than my parents did. But just as you choose to take the path of least resistance I am certain you choose where your working who you socialize with and have the ability to choose who your bonding with.<P>Snl…But unless spouses are able to see other people and interact with them, they have no basis to assess the health of their own marriage<P>Chaz… what!! That is an incredulous statement children repress sexual abuse because intuitively their minds and spirits know that it is wrong this I know from personal experience. I knew the health of my marriage without seeking outside of it. What I didn’t know was how to affect it.<P>Snl…which simply means dysfunctional marriages are far more likely to stay so, and the submissive spouse taken advantage of. <P>Chaz… dysfunctional marriages more often dissolve. As most don’t seek to repair they just leave or drive the other to leave. Of the 50% of marriages that stay intact I would propose that by far the majority is not dysfunctional.<P>Snl…Affairs themselves are philosophically wrong, but they are absolutely essential to the health of the human race, they are the means by which folks find the courage to leave a marriage. Sometimes that is good, sometimes it is not.<P>Chaz… they exist, have always existed and some use them to as an exit I could have easily done so yet I choose (there’s that word again) to do the honorable thing, and have found that while the going is slow there is truth to what I have found in the Harley concepts. <P>Snl.. But even you chaz, readily acknowledge your marriage would have no chance at all except for what you learned from your affair. <P>Chaz…that is true, yet that is not what we are debating is it. I learned how to affect my marriage, and the A provided a catalyst for movement for both my W and I. Something that was missing before. You have been afforded the same opportunity.<P>chaz...who you feel like protecting? what about who you promised to protect? entered in to a commitment of covenant to protect? feeling are fleeting and subject to change as we clearly see. feelings can be wrong and manipulated by external forces. <P>snl....So why aren't the feelings for your w wrong, and fleeting, maybe you are under her spell/manipulation (many are)? Feelings are essential to good mental health, and one must listen to them closely, they are always important. Of course what you do with them is important too. <P>Chaz…Feeling are important to good mental health the expression and understanding that they when repressed affect you negatively and left unregulated they affect you negatively. The objective in caring for your mental health is to have appropriate responses and levels of emotions to given situations in your life. It is not appropriate to fly off the handle over being late to a 5 yr olds birthday party, it might be appropriate to be irritated by it and say something. But the knowledge that feeling can change requires you to commit to things in life, or you would have nothing, everytime your boss pissed you off you would walk out the door. Yet that is not a reasonable response so you address it differently. A marriage is similar only the commitment is substantially greater than the one you make to your employer.<P>Snl…But I do agree one does have obligations to a spouse in terms of committment, but that does not include staying married to them if you do want to be married to them. However, there is a right way and many wrong ways (IMO) to end a marriage. <P>Chaz…I believe that until you completely immerse yourself in the spirit of the marriage you haven’t tried and by using language like “if you don’t want to be” your negating your efforts<P>Snl…The right way is radical honesty, enough time to be sure, and poja the marriage itself (takes enthusiastic choice of both, everydaay choosing the marriage, otherwise it should end, sacrificial marriage is harmful to both parties, whether one makes themself do it or not). <P>Chaz… radical honesty, protection of time, no contact sounds no LB’s POJA seeking to meet the others most important EN’s being the Giver there is a lot to it, I am looking for your giver… mine was hard to find and harder yet to keep motivated. “Enough time to be sure” that one phrase erases every ounce of positive action you take. It erases hope.<P>chaz...what matters is whether your an honorable and loving person who does what is right and reaps the love of others in doing so. <P>snl... I agree, but I suspect we differ on the definition of right. I for example will not accept (although I did for 23 years, so I am patient) someone staying married to me that did not enthusiastically want me (and I them). That is not something you can decide, cause enthusiasm is a feeling. <P>Chaz… tell that to the folks at Disney. Those people put on a happy face or lose their jobs, are you saying that you cannot generate enthusiasm within yourself? That is a personal problem not a marital problem.<P>snl..Further if the ow "saved" you, how is it she was able to, and your wife not able to? <P>chaz...when i called myself on not being to my wife what i was for the OW that is what i was getting at. Motivation is the answer.. <P>snl...Smoke and mirrors. If it makes no difference who you interact with, then you should have had the motivation to act the same way with your wife, and got the same result. But you are right motivation is part of it, and it is a function of how well we fit someone IMO. <P>Chaz.. ahh you see I am motivated now, my life in marriage would have I am convinced been radically different had I recognized what my wife was looking for from me early in our marriage. Now I work hard to meet her needs and be for her what she needs and she is regaining the motivation to do so for me. It does matter who you interact with, your supposed to interact with your wife. Your supposed to avoid interaction with others as they have the ability to meet need for you as well that’s why you have to guard against it.<P>snl..Lastly if you could start over with all the knowledge you have of yourself, (but not w, or ow) would you still choose a relationship with your w? <P>chaz.....Yes, more than ever yes, when i made that choice 12 years ago i had no idea of her resolve, and her ability to forgive. If nothing else, i know now that even in the face of betrayal, i can believe in her. Now i have something to prove. <P>snl...That is good. But I gotta ask two things, one is does this mean you used the ow for your own needs, and if so, why would anyone want to be married to you? <P>Chaz…having entered into the relationship knowingly on both accounts we sought to meet each others needs, I hers and she mine. I gave as equitably in that relationship as she so there was no one being used.<P>Snl…Not to mention the huge debt you have to the ow, how do you intend to pay it? <P>Chaz…by not giving false hope, by not holding her emotions and love as I seek to repair my marriage she knows that I am giving 110% to my marriage and that there is hope in that kind of effort. That she knows that the next time she sees or hears from me will be when I am available to give her the same effort. And there is honor in that.<P>Snl…Relationships of that sort are supposed to lead to marriage are they not?<P>Chaz…nope by far more relationships don’t than do.<P>Snl… So you decieved her if you weren't serious, correct? (hopefully she dumped you, that leaves you off the hook, or you found out she was a predator...was she?). <P>Chaz..all in all the entire relationship was forged in deceit but we parted mutually as in love as we possibly could have been. I asked her if she were my wife, what would she want from me, and we agreed that anything less that 110% would make me less than desireable as a future prospect as one.<P>Snl…Lastly are you suggesting the basis for your marriage is now to prove something? What kind of marriage is that? <P>Chaz..no no no that is not what I was suggesting, I was suggesting that as a human being my wife has shown me a character trait far beyond what I would have considered reasonable before and that I am committed to matching that level of character for myself.<P>Snl…IMO the ONLY basis (although I know others make other choices) is the enthusiastic (radical honesty requires truthfullness, and a lot of soul searching), choice by both parties for each other. <P>Chaz..careful you used the word choice …there is truth in that statement however enthusiasm like feelings can be conjured and destroyed by both internal and external forces and sustaining through the lows is an honorable yet difficult task. Truthfulness isn’t permission for cruelty, but your correct, without that honesty you do not afford your wife the right to choose to or not to meet your needs, and vise versa.<P>Snl…Let me ask you a question, if both of you would be happier married to other people, should you divorce?<P>Chaz… How on earth would you know that? I think if it’s abusive to stay (3A’s) and there is no hope of change no willingness to evaluate and try, then its appropriate to divorce. You don’t have the ability to decide that for your wife, and until your prepared to open your heart and accept the love that she is willing to give you and see if it satiates you then you’ve not given it your all. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by chazbutler (edited September 21, 2001).]