snl you made resort to a word processor<P>Snl…chaz, I really appreciate your willingness to tackle my questions, and this is my way of trying to figure out my life, just as you all have yours. Hopefully I don't offend you, and I lean pretty hard on you, sometime others take offense, you seem ok with me. I know everyone's life is important to them, and most of us are in serious pain of one kind or another, I hope you realize I do not wish you or your marriage anything but the best of outcomes.<P>Chaz…if what you said didn’t sound so familiar as if I had already said is somewhere before I wouldn’t bother, but much of what you say is what I have already spoken aloud or to myself. It’s a good fight, one worth having no matter the outcome. You will grow from it no doubt.<P>snl...So chaz, are you saying one can be equally married to anyone? It is all just work? <P>chaz...well there is willingness and motivation to be considered but the concept holds true for me, ever been strangely attracted to a co-worker or student someone fat or just ugly yet there is something there? it seem obvious to me now, they were meeting some need for me in that time and space i allowed them to meet a need unconsciously not fearing the ramifications. <P>snl..That seems a very mechanistic view of human relations, almost just a formula. After 51 years, my assessment based on my experience as a human being is that human psychology is not nearly that simple. <P>Chaz…yet it can be, Hollywood makes millions each year applying the same formula over and over pulling on the desires an emotions of people once you know the formula you can use it. I hate that I buy Pepsi because Shakira is one sexy woman wow!<P>Snl…I know scores of women (meet many in my job), that I would not have a relationship no matter how much they tried to meet my EN, and even a few who I detest from the git go (ya know, the kind of person that raises the hairs on your neck...so what is that all about? Am I just mentally ill, or am I receiving information that is important but not easily described?). <P>Chaz…so I hear that the opposite of what I proposed is true are you saying that what I proposed is never true? I would emphasize that likely its not an often occurrence but one that happens.<P>snl...but the consensus seems to be it does matter who you are in love with (re the work, is easier with some, harder with others, and impossible with some). So if we are gonna equate love with work and protection why not choose the one who is the least work, <P>chaz...do you value most that which your work the least to attain? that would represent a weird value system that might need some adjustment all around. <P>snl...No, that represents good mental health, one should always attempt to obtain a goal using the least amount of resources consistent with your ethical paradigms. We call that THRIFT. <P>Chaz…thrift? No that’s how you keep the greatest quantity of what you have worked hard to attain. Overcoming obstacles and beating back adversity is what creates value.. in your life are you really suggesting that the things you value the most are the things given you? Things you didn’t have to fight for at all? In competition you would genuinely appreciate a no show more than a competent opponent? Or say in a discussion of values a person who simply agrees with your POV? Having had and seen you in action I don’t believe that. Not for I minute.<P>chaz...now there shouldn’t be a choice, it is the irresponsible acts of the WS and the BS for not taking care of the marriage in a way that protected it from another fulfilling the needs of the one or the other. now there is another involved and split emotions all around. <P>snl....That implies once married you cannot ever leave, is that what you mean? Suppose a woman marries, and um.... her H slaps her around once a day to keep her in line..... never knowing this is not ok (by others with different standards), she lives her life this way. <P>Chaz… sans the 3 A’s yep (Abuse, Addiction, Adultery..owch) if the relationship is abusive, emotionally, spiritually, physically then its appropriate to get out. All attempts to repair should be made in all cases, mine was extremely abusive emotionally, but has been dramatically improved primarily due to my diligence and personal growth and my wife’s willingness to allow that growth.<P>Snl..I don't think people in-love need to be protected. <P>Chaz…Kind of like the US borders right? Hmm doesn’t sound right to me. How about protecting the environment of those in love? Defending from outside attack and influence.<P>Snl…I think it is marriages that are accommodations that are at risk, cause one spouse may through the normal course of human interaction become aware that all is not right, and the marriage is then put into question. An A is just one of the risks of this process, because bonding is what humans do.<P>Chaz.. humans have the ability to choose their paths, who the are bonding with is a definite choice teaching my son to avoid those who will create trouble in his life is clearly an obligation I have as his father to do a better job at it than my parents did. But just as you choose to take the path of least resistance I am certain you choose where your working who you socialize with and have the ability to choose who your bonding with.<P>Snl…But unless spouses are able to see other people and interact with them, they have no basis to assess the health of their own marriage<P>Chaz… what!! That is an incredulous statement children repress sexual abuse because intuitively their minds and spirits know that it is wrong this I know from personal experience. I knew the health of my marriage without seeking outside of it. What I didn’t know was how to affect it.<P>Snl…which simply means dysfunctional marriages are far more likely to stay so, and the submissive spouse taken advantage of. <P>Chaz… dysfunctional marriages more often dissolve. As most don’t seek to repair they just leave or drive the other to leave. Of the 50% of marriages that stay intact I would propose that by far the majority is not dysfunctional.<P>Snl…Affairs themselves are philosophically wrong, but they are absolutely essential to the health of the human race, they are the means by which folks find the courage to leave a marriage. Sometimes that is good, sometimes it is not.<P>Chaz… they exist, have always existed and some use them to as an exit I could have easily done so yet I choose (there’s that word again) to do the honorable thing, and have found that while the going is slow there is truth to what I have found in the Harley concepts. <P>Snl.. But even you chaz, readily acknowledge your marriage would have no chance at all except for what you learned from your affair. <P>Chaz…that is true, yet that is not what we are debating is it. I learned how to affect my marriage, and the A provided a catalyst for movement for both my W and I. Something that was missing before. You have been afforded the same opportunity.<P>chaz...who you feel like protecting? what about who you promised to protect? entered in to a commitment of covenant to protect? feeling are fleeting and subject to change as we clearly see. feelings can be wrong and manipulated by external forces. <P>snl....So why aren't the feelings for your w wrong, and fleeting, maybe you are under her spell/manipulation (many are)? Feelings are essential to good mental health, and one must listen to them closely, they are always important. Of course what you do with them is important too. <P>Chaz…Feeling are important to good mental health the expression and understanding that they when repressed affect you negatively and left unregulated they affect you negatively. The objective in caring for your mental health is to have appropriate responses and levels of emotions to given situations in your life. It is not appropriate to fly off the handle over being late to a 5 yr olds birthday party, it might be appropriate to be irritated by it and say something. But the knowledge that feeling can change requires you to commit to things in life, or you would have nothing, everytime your boss pissed you off you would walk out the door. Yet that is not a reasonable response so you address it differently. A marriage is similar only the commitment is substantially greater than the one you make to your employer.<P>Snl…But I do agree one does have obligations to a spouse in terms of committment, but that does not include staying married to them if you do want to be married to them. However, there is a right way and many wrong ways (IMO) to end a marriage. <P>Chaz…I believe that until you completely immerse yourself in the spirit of the marriage you haven’t tried and by using language like “if you don’t want to be” your negating your efforts<P>Snl…The right way is radical honesty, enough time to be sure, and poja the marriage itself (takes enthusiastic choice of both, everydaay choosing the marriage, otherwise it should end, sacrificial marriage is harmful to both parties, whether one makes themself do it or not). <P>Chaz… radical honesty, protection of time, no contact sounds no LB’s POJA seeking to meet the others most important EN’s being the Giver there is a lot to it, I am looking for your giver… mine was hard to find and harder yet to keep motivated. “Enough time to be sure” that one phrase erases every ounce of positive action you take. It erases hope.<P>chaz...what matters is whether your an honorable and loving person who does what is right and reaps the love of others in doing so. <P>snl... I agree, but I suspect we differ on the definition of right. I for example will not accept (although I did for 23 years, so I am patient) someone staying married to me that did not enthusiastically want me (and I them). That is not something you can decide, cause enthusiasm is a feeling. <P>Chaz… tell that to the folks at Disney. Those people put on a happy face or lose their jobs, are you saying that you cannot generate enthusiasm within yourself? That is a personal problem not a marital problem.<P>snl..Further if the ow "saved" you, how is it she was able to, and your wife not able to? <P>chaz...when i called myself on not being to my wife what i was for the OW that is what i was getting at. Motivation is the answer.. <P>snl...Smoke and mirrors. If it makes no difference who you interact with, then you should have had the motivation to act the same way with your wife, and got the same result. But you are right motivation is part of it, and it is a function of how well we fit someone IMO. <P>Chaz.. ahh you see I am motivated now, my life in marriage would have I am convinced been radically different had I recognized what my wife was looking for from me early in our marriage. Now I work hard to meet her needs and be for her what she needs and she is regaining the motivation to do so for me. It does matter who you interact with, your supposed to interact with your wife. Your supposed to avoid interaction with others as they have the ability to meet need for you as well that’s why you have to guard against it.<P>snl..Lastly if you could start over with all the knowledge you have of yourself, (but not w, or ow) would you still choose a relationship with your w? <P>chaz.....Yes, more than ever yes, when i made that choice 12 years ago i had no idea of her resolve, and her ability to forgive. If nothing else, i know now that even in the face of betrayal, i can believe in her. Now i have something to prove. <P>snl...That is good. But I gotta ask two things, one is does this mean you used the ow for your own needs, and if so, why would anyone want to be married to you? <P>Chaz…having entered into the relationship knowingly on both accounts we sought to meet each others needs, I hers and she mine. I gave as equitably in that relationship as she so there was no one being used.<P>Snl…Not to mention the huge debt you have to the ow, how do you intend to pay it? <P>Chaz…by not giving false hope, by not holding her emotions and love as I seek to repair my marriage she knows that I am giving 110% to my marriage and that there is hope in that kind of effort. That she knows that the next time she sees or hears from me will be when I am available to give her the same effort. And there is honor in that.<P>Snl…Relationships of that sort are supposed to lead to marriage are they not?<P>Chaz…nope by far more relationships don’t than do.<P>Snl… So you decieved her if you weren't serious, correct? (hopefully she dumped you, that leaves you off the hook, or you found out she was a predator...was she?). <P>Chaz..all in all the entire relationship was forged in deceit but we parted mutually as in love as we possibly could have been. I asked her if she were my wife, what would she want from me, and we agreed that anything less that 110% would make me less than desireable as a future prospect as one.<P>Snl…Lastly are you suggesting the basis for your marriage is now to prove something? What kind of marriage is that? <P>Chaz..no no no that is not what I was suggesting, I was suggesting that as a human being my wife has shown me a character trait far beyond what I would have considered reasonable before and that I am committed to matching that level of character for myself.<P>Snl…IMO the ONLY basis (although I know others make other choices) is the enthusiastic (radical honesty requires truthfullness, and a lot of soul searching), choice by both parties for each other. <P>Chaz..careful you used the word choice …there is truth in that statement however enthusiasm like feelings can be conjured and destroyed by both internal and external forces and sustaining through the lows is an honorable yet difficult task. Truthfulness isn’t permission for cruelty, but your correct, without that honesty you do not afford your wife the right to choose to or not to meet your needs, and vise versa.<P>Snl…Let me ask you a question, if both of you would be happier married to other people, should you divorce?<P>Chaz… How on earth would you know that? I think if it’s abusive to stay (3A’s) and there is no hope of change no willingness to evaluate and try, then its appropriate to divorce. You don’t have the ability to decide that for your wife, and until your prepared to open your heart and accept the love that she is willing to give you and see if it satiates you then you’ve not given it your all. <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz
