Well, I'm sure my popularity is at an all-time low now after the past days posting. And frankly I feel bullied. There are some really militant people here. Everyone one of us is here because of some hurt that has happened in our lives. That fact that I AM here says that I am wanting to try to repair things. I'm not going to want to stay around if this atmosphere is going to be heavy with resentment (especially toward me). I am not YOUR husband's other woman. I am not your wife. I am not a punching bag. I am a person trying to work through my own problems. I will admit to mine. And I will also stick to my core beliefs (no matter how wrong some may think). If they are to change, that is up to ME and no one is going to corner me into anything.<P>I say everyone just back off of each other or this is going to turn into a very angry place. And I WILL continue to post along with SnL as long as I feel what he has to say merits my reply. And that goes for anyone else.

??<P>Sorry, I HAD to of missed something... <P>Which thread got you so riled up Snobird? Most people here mean well, but there are a few that just let it all out, not picking their words wisely. Sometimes we all just need a good kick in the as* as well and others here provide that... (need a good one myself now and then)<P>Let me go see if I can figure out what upset you so...<P>HbH

Found it. SnL's post. Didn't read the whole thing, so can't really comment. Just not a thread I choose to get involved with today - maybe tomorrow if I feel like fighting <P>I'm glad you came here to vent. You have a right to say those things, I don't think anyone here would argue with what you said. I, for one, am happy that you post here. All our welcome. Alot of WS's here have been invaluable at figuring out how our own WS's feel/act...<P>Don't take it too personal. Alot of pent up anger sometimes on these boards, but most people on here do mean well.<P>You are right though, we are not your BS's and you are not our WS. You are your own person and entitled to your own opinion.<P>Just keep in mind that sometimes, just SOMETIMES someone on this board just may something that would help change that opinion for the better (if you are open enough that is). Has happened to meet more times than I could count...<P>HbH<P>HbH

Ummmmm...<B>MARRIAGE</B> Builders?? <P>Mitzi

Hi Snobird, <P>Well, I posted a similar point in another post. So as not to offend anyone, I will post the same thought here. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B>Hi PC,<P>You are fairly new here. I would like to welcome you to marriage builders. <P>Have you read the basic concepts or received the welcome package? It has much information about the useful questionnaires, phone counseling, books such as surviving an affair, his needs/her needs, etc. <P>Does your M have a chance. Yes. The road could be long and painful. It can be a learning experience that helps you and hopefully your H become better persons. That is a reachable goal. <P>Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. This place has really helped me. I have been here since Jan and learned soo much. All our circumstances end up being more than we ever imagined and endured more than we ever thought we would. Yes, we have been tested to our limits and survived. <P>The stories here will make you laugh and cry. Many tears but inbetween, you will see the efforts to many give it their all to help their families survive. There are differences here, persons from many backgrounds and opinions. <P>We don't always agree but do hear each other out. Come here for support, to vent, lend a ear and share a hand. You will see similar patterns yet see the grave differences that you never may have noticed between you and your mate before. Others may help you understand what you and your spouse are going through. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In addition, I would like to add that the general purpose of this site is to the restoration or recovery of our injured or broken marriages. Most come here to help a marriage. Not all come here to help their marriage though. There are other sites that promote infidelity (I am not being sarcastic - GloryB.com is one example). <P>When ideas defending infidelity come up and they have, it is the general concensus to return to the boards general purpose. I will give you an example. A while back some of the Ws (no names mentioned) came here and posted, while the initial thought was to save their marriage, they brought along excess baggage, they brought along their OP. Confrontations of the WS/OP and BS showed up right here. Now was that helpful to rebuilding the marriage? Could be. Also could be very damaging. <P>Another example is of the WSs that come here and openly defend their A. Some say, I am and will continue to see the OP. Or it does not matter what the spouse thinks, the spouse has no control over me. I am my own person. No one should be tied to a marriage. Just because it is a vow doesn't mean you should be trapped in a loveless marriage. <P>Do you recognize some of these thought patterns? They come and go on this board over the many months I have been here. Different posters same jargon. <P>My point? Those posting those thoughts claimed to be wanting to recover or understand their need to be married. Yet what they were really saying was they were promoting the A. Right here at MB in front of the BS (sometimes incluing their own spouses). Ok, this a free country and yes you can speak your mind. But remember where you are. If you want to promote the A, then go where the support for that is. If you want to understand how to recover your marriage, this is one of the places that can help you to learn that. However, no one said it would be easy. <P>Both the BS and Ws have a hard time here. 'Flaming' happens on both sides. SNL and I have discussed and gone head to head many times. I have spoken to him and his wife on the phone, no hard feelings, I respect what is said & I feel he does mine. However, I am not forced to like what he says but I don't have to live with and those that do have to live with his attitude like my H has to live with mine. <P>Point being is that don't dish it out if you can't take it. That principal goes in all aspects of our lives. Not just here. If the subject pricks your conscience then either take the good and move forward or go hide and ignore what may help you. Yes, it is your choice and so are the consquences. <P>Many have said things out here that I did not agree with or like. In my case, if what was said was for my benefit, then I took it as medicine. Swallowed my pride and listened. If it was a bunch of venting babble (like OW does to me), then I consider the source and disregard it. Either way, I come out a winner by my choice. <P>The WS's like to remind the rest of the world that they do what they want because it is their choice. Yes we agree. So are the consquences. <P>Another example. There is a WS out here that taunted the A in front of many BSs, in some cases offended many. Plan A and B were made fun of; however, when push came to shove and the WS was treated similar to how other WSs that don't post here (like mine), this WS that posts here was scared and sad. Similar reaction to mine who reads some posts but never posted his own. Hm...... now why is that? Shouldn't that WS that posts here been in a better position to react to plan B? <P>Well IMHO, if that WS was listening to what was being posted to them vs defending the A/OP and picking on the BS more than necessary, then maybe that WS would have learned something. For myself, watching that WSs reaction, hurt me to see that person suffer yet, you know what? That WS had the tools to have a better reaction and make plan B work, but choose not to. Why? Could be the WS was too busy doing the wrong thing. <P>So Snobird, you have choices also. Just like everyone else. You can post, vent, share ideas, ask questions, listen and learn or not. The choice and consquence is yours. <P>Hope you do what is benefical for you and your family. <P>Sincerely,<BR>L.<BR> <BR>

This is a good place to be sno, for sorting out what exactly are the issues of marriage, and human bonding. No one can say for certain, despite all of us stating things pretty forcefully at times. And I am pretty sure most of the folks here truly would not "tell" another what to do (if they had such power), recognizing that we each must chart our own path. All I ask for is sincerity, and not to be cussed out ..... most oblige. Keep in mind that whenever one is in a minority position (as is anyone who questions vows, or suggests love is a lot more than a decision) it may feel like being ganged up on. My advice, if you find value in sorting out your life here, than do so, don't take any disagrement too personally, and literally ignore those who annoy you. There are hundreds of posters, some will be "supportive" some not, is ok. Some posters (in any board, and I have been on dozens) just need to be a little more sarcastic, or aggressive than others, and such leads to various tiffs, best thing is just to be calm, and follow your own agenda, your own path. <P>As for last couple days, been some volatile subjects, and sometimes people just can't help coming on strong (I bite my tounge regularly!!!). I figure there is lots of pain here, and even if some displaced anger comes my way, is no big deal sno, I am glad sometimes to be available for folks to vent to a bit. Just accept your positions are gonna be more of a minority position here, and even though is not your intent, is gonna trigger some hurtful feelings in folks who are suffering a lot. The other option is to go to a board where many more agree with you, but that kinda defeats the purpose of serious soul searching...ya know?<P>For the record, you are a fairly um....... strong poster too, and that can lead to clashes, but only if you let it, (that 2 to tango thingy). I for one am interested in your story, and how it goes. Many affairs are about acting out, or obsessive behaviours, or personality disorders, and/or predatory self-serving op, and that does not help me much. Some (a few) are about good/ethical people, sound psychological bonding, and real love, who find themselves in a difficult life circumstance, this is where I struggle and it helps to have peers. Also keep in mind (something I had to learn) that this is a place where walking in someones shoes has true meaning...being a ws, or a bs, is a fairly intense, but different experience and creates different mindsets, neither of which is necessarily wrong. Also I have learned that love means, looks like, and feels like very different things to some folks. Further I am pretty much convinced that the recognition of a terrific fit with someone is a um....... experience that one has to have to really understand what one means by it. I think some of the folks here (bs or ws) really do not know what that means, and think it does not really exist, or is somekind of fog, or dismissed in some other way. They are unwilling to accept concept of fitting someone as a function of who you are, not something you can decide, or choose to do. Anyways all this leads to conflict. I have a similar problem. Some of the posters seem quite committed to the concept of duty, of you just do it (love someone cause you are married to them), I hear them, but I have no idea what they mean, or what it feels like...so it scares me a little, because maybe they are right, maybe they know something I don't...I think we all feel threatened by the positions of others when we do not understand them, and this can lead to a little conflict.<P>Stick around, this is real life, and we do all share one think in common, pretty much everyone here has experienced significant relationship related pain. And is willing to bare their souls for peer review (and often more pain discomfort), it the hopes of finding a path to recovery (of their life), and willing to help others along the way. IMO that is pretty powerful. There is a good cross section of people, there is a guiding methodology (which seems to make sense for the most part), and I doubt one could find a better place for reality checks than here.

I'm gonna go out on a limb...but I imagine my saying that it is 'dangerous' for you and SnL to post together is what angered you...<P>A couple of months ago, I became too enthusiastic in my anger and proceeded to 'trip.' I made phone calls to OW and LB'd all over the place...some of my good friends here 'encouraged' me...my H now calls you my cheerleaders...what was really happening was that some of us were fairly 'inexperienced' in MB principles, and all too many of us were steeped in pain whereby anybody's vengence seemed acceptable...<P>One sole poster admonished me...a veteren MB'r...I think we all stopped to thing about what this board was for and many of our 'get'em' posts changed...<P>When I come to this board, I am looking for support and answers to my questions in HOW TO SAVE MY MARRIAGE....IN HOW TO CHANGE MYSELF....IN HOW TO SURVIVE...<P>What bothers me about your posts is that they seem so anti-MB...SnL has been around awhile...He has made great strides in working on his marriage....what I see you two post to each other seems to reinforce a 'do my own thing,' it's okay to 'leave because we've changed,' it's my turn 'to be selfish' attitude.<P>You are in essence 'cheerleading' each other on in a way that is not conducive to working on saving your marriage.<P>That's what bothers me...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

snobird,<P>Here is a little more insight into SNL that you may not have since you have been on this board for only a short time. His wife thinker posts here too so we definitely have both sides of the story.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/006119.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/006119.html</A> <P><BR>Now to answer your question, the point of this board is to recover one's marriage using the Marriage Builder's principles. That's it pure and simple.<P>Orchid, Cali and other’s here have said just about everything that needs to be said. They are right on. There are many people here, my husband (SeenTheLight) and I included, who have recovered our marriages using the MB principles. We are passionate about them because they work. <P>Z<P>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<BR><p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited September 23, 2001).]

Hi Sno...(hat in hand)<P>I'm VERY, VERY sorry for the ignorant, stupid comments I made to you the other day.....<P>Please keep coming around......ALL points of view have value and are welcome here....<P>Please forgive me.....<P>Xman<p>[This message has been edited by Xman (edited September 23, 2001).]

There are people on this board from all sides of the affair triangle... WSs, BSs and OPs. There is not an us (BS) vs them (WS & OP) mentality here. Some of the people here have been all three. We are all struggling to find our way just as you are. No one here will benefit from attempts to polarize the community into such camps.<P>Z

Snobird,<P>Let me tell you that you are not the only WS (other than SNL) I am the WS, I am willing admit my big mistake or 4, I feel loney and scared. If you ever want to talk to me alone you can. email-sennmiller@earthlink.net, or IcQ # 130021507. We can share our feelings and our problems. I think that some people don't want advice from a WS, but other's are still wanting and craving the WS side of things. Keep that in mind. you are strong by coming here and talking about your mistakes. Don't let any one chase you away. Sherry