I would really like to hear some heart-felt responses on a subject I don’t see addressed much here at MB. I will probably post this on GQII and the recovery board.<P>Most of us have heard the expression one time or another about how we are suppose to “hate the sin, love the sinner”.<P>My question to both BS’s and WS’s, :<P>How vital to the recovery of your marriage was it that the WS reached a point where they viewed the OP as some tramp, or wicked person, or some other colorful expressions I have often seen described here on the boards? And if so, why is that so important?<P>From my vantage point, if you are a BS, and your willing to work on the marriage to see it restored, then you must see something positive and of value in your spouse if you still want to keep them around. Is it not possible that the OP they were involved with is also a decent person of value, in spite of their horrible sin? <P>I can certainly see where the BS would be comforted in knowing their WS no longer had any positive feelings about the person whom they were involved with. But I can also see the temptation for the WS to once again deceive their spouse by telling them things they want to hear. And if that’s the case…how does that fit in with being totally honest with your spouse?<P>Does that mean the WS needs to continue on recalling all the wonderful virtues of the OP? Of course not. But I am curious…do recovering WS’s feel like they had to reach a point where they did feel a ‘repulsion’ for the OP. I can see feeling that towards the “sin” they committed, but I hate to think you have to reach that place in feeling the same towards the other person involved. I do understand that strong feelings for the OP would naturally ‘fade’ over time. But does the OP ever have to become the ‘beast’ before healing is ‘complete?’<P>Not every affair involves candidates for “Fatal Attraction” stories. Obviously though, any person who would betray their spouse…has some significant character flaws…and are in need of help. I would never want to attempt to ‘sugar coat’ the betrayer or his/her actions.<P>But I am just curious to hear some responses from those who have moved on…and wondered how they look back upon their experiences regarding this subject matter. <P>Thanks for your replies…and explanations. <BR>

Dear Lighthouse,<P>Well my WS saw a lot of good in the OW. Called her his friend and then good friend on d/d. I normally try to look for the good in others. I tried real hard. I did not see as much as he did, I saw some but even that kept disappearing. I even told H at one point, if she is that great, let the rest of us meet her so we can also have a 'great friendship' with her. If not me, at least your family and friends. Well, even in the fog, H knew better than that and he eventually realized that she really was not that 'great' but by the the addiction was strong. <P>This is where I would like to show the difference between the Ws & Bs and how coming back to a balanced outlook is important to recovery. All along, I had tried to look for the good in the OW. I found some. I have been accused of hating the OW, this is true but not after I had been given ample reason. <P>So I agree that the BS needs to know there are some redeeming qualities about the OP but I also know (at least in my case), this OW may have loved her mother but did not respect the family arrangement. Her actions proved that she is a selfish person and if push came to shove, OW would protect and promote her interests ahead of all others and at the expense of everyone else. <P>Now regardless of whether this person and her attitude was an OW, neighbor, workmate, relative, etc. If I met anyone who treated myself or others that I knew of in that manner, my friendship with that person would be serverly curtailed. It even got to the point that it would be difficult to extend common courtesy if she was in need. Why? Because this particular woman attacked me and my family in a hideous manner. I did watch fatal attraction after d/d (for the 1st time, both H & I watched it together). It was scary for me to see the similarities. Yes, I noticed it. H did not, until later. <P>Ws's tend not to notice the bad. That is why the term fantasy land is used in relationship to the A. Bad people do not do only bad acts. Even the Devil protrays himself as an angel of light. Even terrorists may love their families. Does that mean we should excuse their bad behavior and let them not reap the consequences of their bad actions? Should be watch our association with them? <P>There is a wise saying: Hate what is bad, love what is good. <P>In our case, I have told H, that from what I have seen, Mrs. Psyco Babble Rabbit is in dire need of professional counseling. She appears (I am not a doctor, just a woman) to have major PMS problems. However, in light of what has transpired, I am not going to stick my neck out and act neighborly and help her get this help. She simply would not appreciate it. Not an assumption here, just plain fact.<P>I did tell H that I wish her well and did want her to find true happiness one day. The method H and her choose to go about it was not the correct way. H knows that but OW does not. While she claims to not ever get involved with a married man again.... hm....., I can't believe she will not. She is still attempting to cause havoc in our life and now even H is starting to see her psycotic ways and has even called her that. Will post more about that later. <P>The point is that yes, my H is/was an OP as well and a lot of the derogatory remarks made here about the OP could very well be directed to him as well. That hurts me and I am sure if he read the stuff here, he would be as well. (that is why when an OP comes here it is difficult but a true learning experience - what the OP will do with that knowledge will determine whether the pain would help or not). <P>The question raised is: Should all OPS be categorized in the same bag? Should all WSs be categorized in the same pot? Same with the BSs? Probably not but think about it, this is guilt by association. If I had my druthers, I would prefer to be the BS as bad as it was. There are degrees of badness in the WSs, where they take it and their attitude could determine if they can recover for the marriage or not. <P>OW wants to continue friendship with H. H knows this is not possible but OW can not see, believe or acknowledge this. So is it really an act of friendship to give in to OW's demands to continue friendship? Well, let's see. That last 5 times she used this excuse resulted, in 2 more feigned pregnancies, several threats to me to turn me into the authorities and send me to jail, 35 + voicemail messages for H and me, made up stories, etc. In this case, friendship is not good medicine, not for my family. <P>I just asked H yesterday, did he ever in his 1 year relationship with this OW, ever meet any of her 'friends or relatives' that OW claimed to have. Now I know she has some relatives and at one point she told me in an e-mail to me that she told 'all' her friends about what a bad person I was (in one day). I sure couldn't do that, we have too many family and friends. Anyway, H reflected and said that he never met anyone except 1 neighbor. Hm...... isn't that strange for a 'real friend'? <P>So while there may be redeeming qualities about the OP, I don't expect the BS to want to or even need to know about them too much (depending - like if it helps to know about how to meet WS's needs). Should the WS dwell on it? No I don't think that is healthy either. <P>Someone else can benefit from the OPs good qualities not the injuried parties. If you have children, this may be easier to understand. <P>Another wise saying: "do not be misled, bad association spoils useful habits." I live by this principle. <P>L. <P>

I won't say that my husband has any good feelings toward the other man, but he has been respectful of what my feelings were towards him. Of course my H is just a VERY, very reasonable, level-headed, good person. Says he never HATES anyone, belives it is a useless, energy wasting emotion. Of course I still have all the fond feelings I did for the OM and I think my H knows that it is hard to shed those. So, despite what he may think, he never utters a harsh, angry word specifically about the OM or the affair. (Those things are discussed reasonably and calmly when they are discussed).And I would accept nothing else. I wouldn't tollerate the outrageous antics that my OM's wife did. Ohhhh, the colorful names and descriptions I got! One thing that bothers me is if he (OM)ever, ever stood up for me in any way or required that any part of our relationship be given any respect (the deep emotions and love, etc.) It hurts to think he may have just sat there and let her call me a "whore" over and over again. I would never expect her to like me, accept me or think even one nice thing about me. But as my husband has respect for MY feelings and knows that angry names do no good and change nothing, I would hope she would care for her H enough to do the same.

Well, as the WS I think in my case its important to at least compare H with the OM. The OM was there when H and I would argue and fight.....but only when it was convenient for him. The OM would pick up the pieces of my heart......but only when it was convenient for him. The OM would give me complements and make me feel wanted and sexy.....but only when it was convenient for him.<P>However, my H is the one who is there ANYTIME I need him... my H is the one who committed his life to me... my H is the one who loves my children and is committed to them.<P>Sooooooo, I suppose my answer is.... I don't think of the OM as an ogre...(sometimes as a jerk tho!)....becuz, he cheated on his family (even tho it was with me)....and my H would NEVER do that! I try to see all the good things about my H these days...(we are in counselling)... and the more good I see in him... the more my memories of OM fade.<P>It is a process, and unfortunately, I think the BS can only be the best they can be...to show the WS just how wonderful they truly are.... and eventually, the 'fantasy' of the OP will fade.<P>Good luck......<P>------------------<BR>..climbing the rainbow..

lh:<P>I accepted all the blame in the A's. The OWs involved were, in a sense, victims as well.<P>Since D-Day, I have had no contact, and my focus is on my W (zorweb) and restoring our marriage, to make it better by applying the MB principles.<P>In that regard, our marriage is better that it ever was. We still have hurdles to clear, and we work on it continually. The biggest hurdle had to be by me: to not only cut off all ties to that behavior and claim full responsibility; but then, through <I>action</I> work to rebuild <I>trust</I> and regain <I>respect</I>.<P>My recommendation to WSes: look in the mirror and be not afraid to confront the truth. For without that harsh honesty, any recovery will be built on some measure of deceit (self-deceit being the most sublime).<P>My recommendation to BSes: It takes two. Both you and your WS will have to be 100-percent committed to MB's principles. Anything less than that, and you risk driving the WS away emotionally.<P>Good luck and Godspeed to you all,<BR>STL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lighthouse:<BR><B>How vital to the recovery of your marriage was it that the WS reached a point where they viewed the OP as some tramp, or wicked person, or some other colorful expressions I have often seen described here on the boards? And if so, why is that so important?<BR> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I guess it wasn't 'vitally' important that my xWH see OW#1 as the user that she is, but it certainly helped me to heal faster.<P>It was a very strange mix of emotions for me at first. I was thrilled that H could finally see her for what she was, and yet, he was so hurt too. That saddened me. (through a reliable source, we discovered that she has dug her claws into ANOTHER MM, telling him the same lovey dovey things she told my H ).<P>However, I have rationalized my feelings towards OW#1 for a long time. She had been a friend of mine for over 2 yrs prior to the start of their A. So not only did my H betray me, but so did a 'so called friend' of mine. She lied to me, used me too. She hurt both H and I.. and not by simply being the OW.<P>I asked my H his view on this:<P>"IMHO, it was not important at all. The OP was not the important person, Karen and I were the important ones involved. We had to move on, and Karen made her opinion of OW#1 quite clear. I still cannot bring myself to hate the OW. I don't like her (and have no desire to see or talk to her or know anything about her ever again), but I do pity her in her self destructive behaviour that she's in.<P>As long as the WS has made the concious decision to end the relationship with the OP, and is committed to their marriage, what does it really matter what the feelings are towards the OP? Yet at the same time, I can see it from the BS point of view, and how ill feelings towards the OP would be a 'guarantee' that it's over for good."<P>Karen (and H)

Lighthouse, <BR>When I ended things with my OM, there were no hard feelings on my part. things did not die a natural death. If I had to wait until I had some bad feelings for him in order to move on, it would take a long long time. But I made a concious choice. And I will never see the OM as the "beast." There were so many things he did that helped me become a better person that I could never see him in a bad light. OH yes, I know that is the "wrong answer" on this board, but for me it's the truth. He also helped open my H's eyes up to what our marriage had deteriorated to and actually caused us both to do some major changing in our lives and our views of each other.<BR>Now my H cannot stand the sight of the OM which is to be expected. And we don't talk about him anymore. There is no point to it. We just work on us and our marriage.<BR>Debbie<P>------------------<BR>"I find the great thing in the world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving. To reach the port of heaven, we must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it ---- but we must sail, not drift nor lie at anchor." Oliver Wendall Holmes

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"hate the sin, love the sinner”.<BR>How vital to the recovery of your marriage was it that the WS reached a point where they viewed the OP as some tramp, or wicked person, or some other colorful expressions I have often seen described here on the boards<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am the BS, but I'd like to "weigh in" on this subject. I am trying to "love the sinner" - in this case the OW, simply because SHE seems to be the object of my H's affections at this particular moment in time. My H is NOT one who "falls for" anyone who happens to catch his eye, so this is significant to me to realize. OTOH, I also feel that he was "vulnerable" and "in a bad place" in his own mind and life, and she "took advantage of that," and plays on it every chance she gets.<P>Since I don't know her at all, I can only conjecture from what I know about where my H was emotionally, when he left to be with her, that he thought life would be wonderful after making this change (I don't know at this point that it isn't). That being said, however, I would like to also add that my H has NOT (yet) said anything to me to indicate that he "loves her, not in-love with me" or any other such FOG TALK. I appreciate that from him. In fact, I'm not sure he's IN LOVE with her at all! Simply that he ran from (what was to him) a bad situation. If that is the case, I view her as a desperate, pathetic person, who is taking CRUMBS from someone else's life, instead of creating one of her own with an "available" man.<P>Knowing that my H was/is M, and enticing him anyway, encouraging him to file D. papers, and moving him into her home, indicates a - hmmmm - "different" type of personality to me. Those people who call such women "whores" do so based on the fact that a person <B> could </B> "do such a thing" - as for myself, I could NOT. But that's just me!<BR>Can I see her as a valuable, decent human being in the whole grand scheme of things? I don't know what I will think of her down the line....I just want her OUT of our lives!<P>To answer your original question, lighthouse, Do I think it is vital to recovery to view OW as this vile, contemptuous person? No, I don't think so. I just want my H to realize that TRUE happiness can happen at "home," and he doesn't have to run away, or look any further than his own backyard to find it. It has little to do with her, and everything to do with "US."<P>Lupo

Well...I sure got some well thought out replies...and I thank each of you for doing so. There is so much written here...I wouldn't even know how to respond to all of it right now.<P>Admittedly....having an affair....be it emotional or physical...is simply one door that would have been so much better for all involved...if it had never been opened. The human heart...can take you down some painful paths. Emotions and feelings can be powerfully addictive and influential. My journey back to home has caused me to evaluate so many things. I appreciate your answers to my questions.

You know, this is a really good question, because I have also noticed that many of we BS have this need to demonize the OM or OW, yet excuse the WS. I have not done that. I believe that the OW in my case is a pig but I also believe that my husband *WAS* a pig. I honestly have no need to believe she is a pig or is somehow MORE guilty than my husband, though. In fact, I probably hold her LESS accountable because she never made a vow to me, HE did. She continues to screw around and sees nothing wrong with doing this yet my H was deeply remorseful and did make a dramatic change. I have never excused his behavior and the only reason I have forgiven him is because he admitted his wrong and made a change.

As the BS it was vitally important to me in the beginning to think of the OW as nothing but a slut and homewrecker. My H kept saying she was so much like me-except she was 12 years younger, single and no kids. So, of course, she was firmer, and their sex life was terrific.<P>Now, 1 year into recovery, I see her in a different light. I believe she is a caring, decent person who also made a terrible mistake like my H did. She wanted so badly to be married and to have a family that she was willing to take on a 40 year old MM with three kids. She too was in the fog. I really believe she did love my H and was decent enough not to pursue him when they finally ended it.<P>I talked to her on the phone during one of the many times my H tried to break it off with her. Before that, I was slightly intimidated by her. I thought she was much prettier, smarter and so much more together than I was. Then when I talked to her I realized just how immature she was. A great weight was taken off my shoulders. She was not better than me. She was just a child even though she was 28. <P>I am trying my best not to villify the OW. The fault lay with my H. He was the vallain of my story. We have come a long way from the events of last year and I am happy to report we are a "success". I have gotten to the point where I pray for the OW for her happiness and for her to find the true love of her life.<P>NoMo<BR>PS I am not a saint and not even close to one. I truly believe in order for me to heal I had to let go and let God.

<<<[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dana114:<BR>[B]You know, this is a really good question, because I have also noticed that many of we BS have this need to demonize the OM or OW, yet excuse the WS. I have not done that. I believe that the OW in my case is a pig but I also believe that my husband *WAS* a pig. >>><P>I agree. I go to experience the OW in action so she showed me her true colors. In no way do/did my feelings about the OP take any of the blame away from my H. Even though he had some pretty wacky mental problems at the time he is a grown man, not a delicate naive flower. In the end he realized how stupid he looked not only for having an A, but for having it with a girl who turned out to be a lunatic and made it her life's mission to try and make his life hell.

Lately, I have been feeling sorry for our OP...she has emailed me and the emails are pathetic and terribly desperate...she also had a note handed to my H last night as she left after only 5 hours into a 12 hour shift, detailing how she "just can't work with him" since he "blew her off" and explaining all her pain and how she can't bear to be around him now.....my H's resonse was "good, now maybe she'll quit" and I ACTUALLY found myself mad at him for saying this...it's like, let's see, on July 16th you told me "I think of nothing but her" and now, LESS than 2 months later, you have no sympathy for how YOU have made her feel?" - This attitude bothers me a little. <BR>I don't know how I really feel about her...right now I kind of feel sorry for her...after reading about why females have affairs and having the unfortunate experience of being at two parties where her husband proceeded to get trashed, grope other woman, and treat her like ****; I think she saw my husband as her knight and shining armor...and now sir galahad won't give her the time of day...so I guess, as another woman, I can feel her pain...I just can't be there for her and I'm certainly not handing over my husband to make her feel better. I've asked H what he thinks when he looks at her or thinks about her and his latest reply was "complete disgust" and I'm like - "you thought you were in love with this person-that doesn't make any sense-how can you feel that?" however, I loved his resonse: "because what I did caused you so much pain.." Whoopee..<P>I want to say one thing about how BS's can "hate the OP" and not hate the WS: <BR>If you love your WS then you want to try and see the best in them/love them/eventually forgive them...but there is so much pain, humiliation, anger....so you do what any rational being would do....you find "the enemy" - the OP - to dump all your bad feelings on...<BR>I think that, eventually, if a relationship survives the trauma both the WS and BS will see the OP not as the devil or as the ultimate fantasy, but as what they are - just another person trying to live their life the best they can (and, admittedly , some do this less well than others). I want to be at this point with my H regarding our JOINT opinion on the OP...when we get there I will know that the wound is healed over - for us both. <P>LLL

<BR><<<I want to say one thing about how BS's can "hate the OP" and not hate the WS: <BR>If you love your WS then you want to try and see the best in them/love them/eventually forgive them...but there is so much pain, humiliation, anger....so you do what any rational being would do....you find "the enemy" - the OP - to dump all your bad feelings on...>>><P>It can be that way. Or not. I have bad feelings for the OP becasue she did nasty things to me after my H ended their affair. I didnt' marry her, I do not love her, I had/have no desire to have her in my life.. So therefore I have/had no obligation/motivation/desire to forgive her or find the good in her. <P><<I think that, eventually, if a relationship survives the trauma both the WS and BS will see the OP not as the devil or as the ultimate fantasy, but as what they are - just another person trying to live their life the best they can >>><P>My goal is that she become in my eyes a nonexistent entity. My H is already there. I'm working on it.

I thought for a while it would make me feel better...<P>I never did hate PT. Sorta felt pretty sorry for her, but it did bother me that Robert felt she was a little angel for a while. It makes sense - he'd be a fool to risk everything on someone horrible right?<P>Then we went through the stage where he decided she was an absolute waste of oxygen on this planet, evil and manipulative, tricking him and using him. That makes sense, too, sorta absolves him of some of the responsibility, right?<P>FINALLY, after almost 2 years in recovery, it's a pretty healthy outlook for both of us. PT has moved on to her next two (one married) men (pretty fast work for a 23 year old!) and Robert has completely accepted responsibility for the affair. He and I both see her as a person, with good and bad traits. It's obvious that, at least once in her life when she was with Robert, her morals and principles were sliding a bit, but, hey, so were his. Her motivation could have been as strong as his was at the time. I'm really really comfortable with this...people, after all, are just people. Admittedly, she did a lot of hitting below the belt and interfering once we were back together..but, hey, she was fighting for what she believed was the love of HER life as well (ok, he was married, but there's all kinds of fog!). Really didn't expect her to just wish us well and go on. <P>For us, we had to go through all the stages. I don't really think of her as a victim - she did make the choices, after all. But I don't believe she's evil either. Just has some misguided moments and times of bad judgement. That's pretty much how Robert feels as well.<P>Lori

What an interesting topic!<P>We are barely past D-Day, and I know very little about OP, at this point I don't want to know more.<P>As a BS, all I know about this person is that OP is taking my WS focus off of me and onto OP, and I see nothing good about that. There may be other aspects of OP that I would think were positive, but I don't know this person. (and, frankly, don't want to.)<P>I have told my WS that it is a shame that when WS thought this person would make a good friend, that WS did not bring this person home and have OP be a family friend. Since this did not happen, I have to wonder whether the relationship was ever healthy. It must have always been "keeping options open" and thus ending in an A. <P>I have prayed that OP meet an ELIGIBLE person that OP would be attracted to. (OP is single.) I don't mind a bit if OP goes on to have a wonderful life with someone else! <P>If OP really thinks that the A helps my WS, OP is deluded.... but I guess I appreciate the try.<P>I agree that WS is more at fault, WS is the one that made promises to me. (and broke them.)

Hmmmm, I'm a complementary therapist and have strong views on how destructive emotional feelings of hate and resentment can be to the physical body, as well as the mental body. Yes - I did feel great hate towards the OW at first, but I gradually came to realise that she only knew half the story - what she was being told by my husband - which was that our marriage had been over for years, I was OK with the separation and our daughters were coping with it all just fine... It was fog-talk going into an equally foggy brain. I am convinced that if she KNEW the real facts she would have thought twice about sleeping with my husband. I cannot for the life of me think how one woman could possibly do that to a family if she wasn't protected from the grim realities of the situation by this blanket of fog. <P>Believing that forgiveness, grace, empathy, compassion and love are the most powerful and healthy choices we can live our lives by, I soon realised that the hate, anger and resentment were not viable options and that I had to work to get rid of those feelings. It was hard, and it took a lot of soul-searching and I'm still not quite there yet - which is why I want to have coffee or lunch with her someday now the affair is over. I need to have that contact - to give her a hug even, to resolve the last traces of badness I feel about her, to have some closure. <P>I don't believe she was an 'evil woman' - she was as much in the fog as my husband was, and I'm just thankful that her own marriage was strong enough to survive this too.<P>Just my thoughts <BR>Paint.