SnL--<P>Why do I love him? hmm good question. I love him because I love him, faults and all. I don't love some of his behavior, but I love him. Love is a commitment. Love is special. Love is reaching deep inside of yourself, even when you are hurting, and trying to help someone else when they are hurting. Love is unconditional. Love is not just a feeling (and yes, I would love to have the 1st time feelings again). Love is trying to make another person happy. (you only truly receive, when you give). Love is timeless. Love is a choice. love is a promise to protect the spouse.<P><BR>I know that I am scared of change, but I also know that I will survive if my M doesn't work...I choose to be with my H, because I promised before God that I would always love him forever.......<P>Would I chose him again---YES! I have had 18 years of mostly wonderful times (9 married). WE do have a history, but it isn't all about that. I am committed whole heartedly to this man and my family and marriage---If I didn't "love" him, would or should I say could I put up with all the deceit? No, I have chosen to forgive him.<P>I think that forgiveness is a major key in recovery in all aspects of life. It is saying, "hey, I am human, I have faults, I made a mistake." Forgiveness means letting go of what you cannot control---ie. the actions of other people. you can only control what is in yourself.<P>If I had thought that my H was a deceitful, lying person before I married, then I would NOT have married him. Everyone has some deceitfulness in them---I choose NOT to believe that he was that person when I married him. Maybe he has a lack of strength of character that I knew nothing about, but he was NOT the person I see today. Don't you think that people change....<P>Hindsight is truly 20/20. We all can look back, and see things that were wrong in our marriage, but when you are going through life with kids, financial problems, etc...I find that most people are coasting---not really making a real effort--sometimes we are just surviving the best way we know how! You can look back and say, "yeah, we weren't as happy as we could've been, but we were happy." Most of us learned by poor examples in our parents of what marriage is supposed to be......then fed some bull on TV. I know that I was to blame for part of the A. i am trying to rectify that the best way I know how.<P>I am a committed person. I did NOT cheat on my H. I chose to stick this out until the very end. I have Faith that God has a plan for my life, and that this is just a "storm" to be weathered out! <P>I gave my H a plaque for our anniversary that says: If I could choose again, I'd still choose you! I mean it, I feel it. I live by it everyday.<P>That's my answer and I'm sticking to it!! LOL<P>Krystal<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is the first denial bs go too, the whole alein thingy, moose worms, etc. ....is fun, helps some make sense of horrendous pain, but it is not true of course. Every ws IS the the person you married, the affair was predictable in EVERY case if you understood them well enough, it is who they are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, S_N_L, I thought I could keep my mouth shut and not enter into this discussion, but I can't.....<BR>While it may SOUND like "denial" to you, the BS isn't saying their WS ARE these things, or becoming these people, just that their <B> thought processes</B> seem to be wrapped up in these things. Think about it.....or maybe you never told horrendous stories, or recapitulated over and over on stuff you told your W. I have heard the most INANE, FUZZY LOGICAL type stuff from my WH....the most RATONAL and LOGICAL man I have ever met!! Yet when I talk to him, and this "stuff" comes out of his mouth, I have NO IDEA what he's talking about!!! THAT's "moose brain worms...." I don't think he does, either, just that saying <B> something </B> must sound better to him than saying nothing. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>faith...It hurts (as everyone knows). My H was never a dishonest person, until this......he was disgusted by people that lied.<P>snl...He is exactly who he always was, any effort by himself or you to think otherwise, is nothing more than rationalization. What's more, if you put him under a microscope and take him apart with psychological tools, you will find there were plenty of signs and symtons, you just couldn't see them, or ignored them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I totally agree with FaithInHim, and cannot agree with YOU! (There's a surprise). Our WS's <B> DO </B> "become" someone else, act like it, say weird stuff, etc. That's part of what makes the BS's so NUTS!!! It's like trying to scoop up a liquid into a bowl with a fork....they just keep shifting around, and "wiggling out" of anything solid, acting in ways we have NEVER seen before. That's what makes is soooo frustrating. You should try putting the shoe on the other foot, YOU"D see what we're trying to say! <P>On second thought, no thanks. NO ONE should have to endure this much pain (from either side).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> snl...but why do you love him, what does that really mean to you, how do you know it is love and not need, want, history, fear of starting over, a desire for the "picture" at any cost?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I wish we could all know the answer to this. I guess for me, I know I love him - BECAUSE - even tho he did something this hurtful to me, I WILL forgive him, I DO care if he's "hurting" inside. I think after so many years (and you have history, so you know what that's about), it does start to become more than "just a feeling of in-love" - it starts to be about need, want, the "picture" cause you can't imagine your life any other way. Not to say that's all bad....just that you could be right, it's NOT ENOUGH to "hang in there" for.....<BR>I am just of the opinion that ALMOST ANY two people could be a "good fit" if they just TRIED hard enough....BOTH OF THEM REALLY, REALLY TRIED.<P>The feeling of "in-love" ?? Maybe that's when you see your S across a crowded room, and smile, cause he's holding his head a certain way which means he HATES talking to some particular person, but he's stuck there... or he's telling that STUPID joke you HATE listening to, and he's all into it, and everyone will laugh...or you see his shirt tail hanging out (AGAIN, cause you told him that his favorite shirt was too short)...or you DID manage to surprise him with <B> just </B> the right gift, and he didn't GUESS it before he opened it this time.<P><sigh> I don't know, S_N_L, <B> THIS </B> feels like "LOVE" to me.....<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> If you could go back and do it all over again, knowing what you do about yourself now, and your H.... would you choose him again over all men? And if so, why<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Because the good has outweighed the bad, because we DID do so much good together....<BR>Basically, my Christian faith played a big part in my decision to marry who I did. We were told (in our Young Singles group) that God wanted a certain 2 people to marry IF together they could accomplish much bigger, better things than either could alone. And we do, did, will again.<P>Lupo

Okay SnL and Sno,<P>Riddle me this, if my H's OW (OW #2) is his Soul Mate, then why did he tell me 16 years ago when we married that I was his Soul Mate? <P>Are there lots of Soul Mates ... can anyone that "appears" to meet your needs be YOUR Soul Mate?<P>I know my situation is really messed up, I know it's severe and not the typical one time A, but the "FEELINGS" my H has for OW are the same in terms of intensity (so he claims) as they appear to be for you and Sno.<P>BTW: At the time 10+ years ago, My H also told me OW #1 was his Soul Mate. Guess she was meeting his needs for a term as well. Ughhhhh ... My H is the KING of "if you FEEL it, ACT on it".<P>Frustrated and trying to move on ....<BR>Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faith n Him:<BR><B>Ok Sno, then how do us BS's really have a chance at total reconciliation??? We cannot "compete" with that. <P>I NEVER realized my H was hurting and that I wasn't meeting his EN's, until the OP came into the picture.<P>Us BS's were hurting, too! I probably could've been a WS, but I was home talking care of the kids---Never got adult conversation, etc......<P>I ask HOW CAN WE COMPETE WITH THOSE FEELINGS WS HAVE FOR OP?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>FnH, I can really identify with what you are saying. I also didn't realize I wasn't meeting my WH's ENs. It's like I am trying to complete with OW, and have no chance of winning when I am compared to the feelings generated by a new love relationship. I don't know how to compete in this situation.<BR>

Silverrose--<BR>All I can say is that I tell everyone that I know to listen to their spouses, and read between the lines---or they will be here someday!<P>I tell everyone to cherish their marriage, and spouse, and how lucky that their S wants to come home to them everynight! I say let go of the bad feelings and talk, talk, talk!!! <P>I hope we all get another chance---I know I told my H that my old M is gone (thank God), and that a new and better marriage is in our future!! We now know what NOT to do!! <P>Wish I'd have known sooner!<P>Krystal

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maggierose:<BR><B>My favorite response is always "if they'd cheat on their spouse with you, who are they going to cheat on you with?"</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My WH tells me that OW is the only person he would ever cheat on me with. This is the 3rd time around with her. Maybe I'm naive, but I actually believe him. Okay, I'm definitely naive. OW tells him the same thing, that he is the only person she would cheat on her spouse with. In fact, she's cheated on both of her husbands with him. He believes that is true, and I'm sure he's flattered by it. I don't believe it for a minute.

What is so special about her, and if she is so special, then why didn't she marry him the 2nd time around??? or wait for him??<P>I don't understand their thinking! Sorry you had to hear that from him!<P>Krystal

<B>Riddle me this, if my H's OW (OW #2) is his Soul Mate, then why did he tell me 16 years ago when we married that I was his Soul Mate?</B> *****It does sound like that he hopped around alot emotionally. I think that what SnL and I have talked about maybe don't apply to everyone. Your husband is doing lots of looking it seems and I can't say what exactly he thinks he will find. Again, I can only tell you how my situation and feelings have worked. For me, I never thought anyone else was my soulmate. My husband was a pretty good match and I married him because we had a long relationship and he seemed to become the "standard" I measured all other men with. I figured he'd be a mental "thorn in my side" if I didn't marry him. (make sense??)<P><B>Are there lots of Soul Mates ... can anyone that "appears" to meet your needs be YOUR Soul Mate?</B>*****I really don't think so, personally. I believe there has to be a special connection that goes far beyond just a meeting of needs. My relationship with my OM felt like it was much deeper than a meeting of needs. And it really felt like nothing else I had experienced.<P>I don't take the words love or soulmate lightly. I didn't just toss it out to the OM. And I wouldn't just tell anyone such serious things. I try to express my feelings as they really come to me. I've been working on my emotions with my H the same way. Expressing them as they appear to me. I don't expect "soulmate" to pop up again for me. I don't think people are lucky enough to find one usually, much less several.<P>I'm sorry your husband has done this to you. You do deserve better.<P>Sno

snobird said,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When you meet this man/soulmate you don't look at him as "so and so's husband" you look at him and see a man who fits with you perfectly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you believe in commitment and marrige, you DO see every married man as "so and so's husband."

Hm, I guess since I started this I ought to reply... replies to snl, silerrose, faithnhim below.<P>from snl:"This is the first denial bs go too, the whole alein thingy, moose worms, etc. ....is fun, helps some make sense of horrendous pain, but it is not true of course."<P>me: maybe some of it is denial, a natural stage of grief/shock, but it is at least partly true. After all, my WS was afraid to marry me because my parents are divorced. WS made me swear repeatedly that no matter what happened, we would never consider divorce because we would always be able to work it out. Now, 15 years later, there is an OP and WS is "deciding." Even if you only go back about 2 years, WS was horrified when H of younger sister left to marry an OP and was disgusted, etc., by that behavior. Now I hear things like "We just believe in monogamy because we were raised to do so." ALIENS have taken over! Yes, of course snl, you are right about the aliens and moose brain worms being a humorous way to deal with our pain. Thank God we have humor!! And if I had heard things like this from WS mouth BEFORE OP, I would have been surprised, but I would have listened. But coming while WS is "deciding" between me and OP, it's tough not to believe this is WS trying to rationalize what feels good.<P>snl: "Every ws IS the the person you married, the affair was<BR>predictable in EVERY case if you understood them well enough, it is who they are."<P>me: Blarg. And how mechanical. WS had a chance to make a choice, though I grant you that such a choice would not have occured if our marriage had been as strong as it was in the past. But I wasn't given any clues that WS was dissatisfied. Even WS says that WS didn't know that the unhappiness was present until suddenly this OP appeared. OTOH, WS or BS is not EXACTLY the person you married. We all change. Yes, I didn't understand WS well enough, I don't think that is all my fault, WS doesn't share inner feelings and thoughts very readily. <P>snl: "The reason they wandered is very important, dismissing<BR>it as something not part of them is a huge mistake." <P>me: This I agree with, and I have focused on this. The problem is that the WS cannot even figure out why! So I have told WS: "If you need to leave, leave, we may not have much time left together, but let's make the most of what we do have," and I am satisfying all the EN's I can.<P>snl: "As a bs (I am not of course), my first consideration would be, now that I have been presented with extremely important insight into my spouse, as well as my marriage, is do I really want to be married to this person."<P>me: I agree with this too, but in my case the answer is YES. I am a very analytical person (I am a mathematician, for goodness sake!) I do think it is not only "do we really fit" but "what is best for the kids." The in-love thing is not the goal - in our marriage, most of the time we have been in love with each other, some times we have gone through dull periods. This particular dull period, an OP showed up before we worked our way out of it. The history is important also - OP can never share the memories we have. Of course they can make new ones, but somehow it seems to me it would be more satisying to make new ones with me, then be able to have all with me! I was reading an author who said that after two years, you have so integrated the marriage/spouse into your life that it is nearly impossible to dissociate. 50 years from now, I'll still think of that side of the bed as WS's!<BR> <BR>Would I marry WS again, knowing how much pain and how much joy there would be? Yes, the joy far outweighs the pain, except unfortunately the pain is most of what there is recently.<P>SNL, maybe you haven't heard this often, you keep talking about BS's clinging and clutching: If I really believed that WS would be happier with OP, I would say, "Go, get on with it." I know that you can just say that I am "refusing to believe" and therefore clinging and clutching, but I know myself better than that.<P>SilverRose: It's like I am trying to complete with OW, and have no chance of winning when I am compared to the feelings generated by a new love relationship. I don't know how to compete in this situation.<P>me: I hear you, but ... I know that whenever I get sucked into the feeling of competition, I become less. I am much happier (and hopefully, thus more attractive to WS) when I completely forget about OP and concentrate on being the best me I can be, and this includes that since I promised to cherish my S, I am going to do it. The Harley books have been helpful here in giving more practical ways to do that. One thing to caution you about - You can do everything "right" and WS may still leave. I might not have gotten the "wakeup call" in time. If so, I'll be sad, but I've still grown through this mess. I'll always regret decisions I made to help WS be vulnerable to an A, but WS made that choice, and only WS can make the choice to stop it. I am making changes to make me a better person, and hopefully this will help WS make a decision based on full information. (I can meet some of those needs after all <P>from faithnhim: "I know I told my H that my old M is gone (thank God), and that a new and better marriage is in our future!! We now know what NOT to do!! <P>me: Yeah, I said something like this too! Well, not this confidently. I just agreed that I didn't want to go back to what we had. I am not going to count on a new and better marriage in our future, but I do know it is a possibility.

<<< This is the first denial bs go too, the whole alein thingy, moose worms, etc. ....is fun, helps some make sense of horrendous pain, but it is not true of course. Every ws IS the the person you married, the affair was predictable in EVERY case if you understood them well enough, it is who they are. >>>><P>Wow. This is great to know and should be quite a breakthrough for the medical and psychological community. I, and many psychiatrists, would liek to know exactly how to predict (years in advance) an episode of clinical depression? This is an actual chemical imbalance. A medical condition. Anyone who has ever dealt with their own clinical depression, or that of a family member or close friend, should be able to tell you that a person suffering from that illness often does things that are extremely bizarre and completely out of character. Also wondering how to predict years in advance a mid life crisis? That would be very helpful for many people.<P>Someone also mentioned not seeing marreid men as "other people's husbands". Am I so weird that I have ALWAYS seen married men as exactly that? They have always been completely off limits. No ifs ands or buts.

<B>Someone also mentioned not seeing marreid men as "other people's husbands". Am I so weird that I have ALWAYS seen married men as exactly that? They have always been completely off limits. No ifs ands or buts.<BR></B><P>That was me. And I didn't say it was not seeing "married men" (in general) as someone else's husband. I was talking specifically about that ONE person that you find yourself connected with. Not saying it's right. It's just that sometimes your emotions narrow your field of vision.