AFter posting in several areas, i will try here too. My BS H just doesn't talk and i'm afraid to bridge the discussion again. DDay was 5/23/01 and he blew up. long story, read it on "just found out" i spent the summer back in the US, he came and spent a week rafting down a river with our 3kids and 2 additional kid friends, so we are interacting, living, raising kids. he needs me. just over 2 weeks ago, he blew up again and said he doesn't love me, our marriage is over, i tore apart everything he believed in, i may have broken vows, but this was the one i just couldn't break, nevermind that he also slept with me and the OM's wife... very long story, i have here a macho man, that thinks its ok for him and not me, and since i approved it, it must be ok. ITS NOT.... together 26, married 18. HS sweethearts. our lives are meshed. i want him and our marriage to be the best it can be, but since i've been forgiven by god, not H (as he usually believes its not up to him to forgive in life) and am healing, reading MB stuff, practicing meeting his needs, getting some counseling, i don't want to rock the boat. he wont hug me, kiss me, and definately doesn't say "iloveyou". how long does it take the BS to come to a place where they want the marriage to work? how long to i be quiet? we have treated each other with more respect these past few weeks than when we were first married. its so hard to wait. at least im not out on the streets without my kids, as he at first wanted me to do. he said, get your passport and leave in the beginnning. now, we go through the normal day to day stuff. i even cut his hair, we make love (tho he doesn't kiss me on the lips) boy this is so hard. i want immediate action and decision and he's so hard and i think he's punishing me and testing me. well, any response would be helpful. i've posted in a few places now and not sure where to settle in. thanks....

Portland,<P>I have read some of your posts and I am not sure if I have responded to you before. Let me see if I understand a bit of what I have read and then I would like to offer some advice.<P>1. Your neighbors are into shall we say an alternative lifestyle.<P>2. You, your H, and your female neighbor had a three way. Here is where I am confused. At one point you stated that this occur partially because you wanted to try being with another female and he agreed because you wanted to, in another part you suggested that this was all your H's doing. and you only went along.<P>3. However, be that as it may, you proceed to get together with neighbor couple yourself and then had an affair with the husband of the couple.<P>I would guess that the affair is what has really set your H off. It would appear that all that went on before was with your tacit if not explicit approval.<P>Now if I am close to understanding this lets have a look at what you have posted here.<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> i may have broken vows, but this was the one i just couldn't break, nevermind that he also slept with me and the OM's wife... very long story, i have here a macho man, that thinks its ok for him and not me, and since i approved it, it must be ok. ITS NOT....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, you did approve it and now you are going back and rewriting history to deflect taking responsibility for what you did. This sounds harsh, but what I am trying to say is that the more your wiggle and squirm and try to sugar coat your affair, the more resistent your H is going to be toward getting back together. Why? Well, you obviously hit a trigger or something trigger his feelings 2 weeks ago. Your trying to deflect taking responsibility may well have been that trigger. Don't do that. <P>Look him in the eye and be honest. Tell you know you made a hugh mistake and it is your fault. You regret it deeply and would like to make the marriage work and then defend yourself no more.<P>You asked how long does it take will often it is between 6 months and 1 year. Harley suggests that it will take up to two years to fully recover. You are only four months into this and this is usually the time when the BS's anger comes out. If you face him and tell him you accept responsibility and that you are very sorry every time, it will help defuse the anger.<P>You then said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> at least im not out on the streets without my kids, as he at first wanted me to do. he said, get your passport and leave in the beginnning. now, we go through the normal day to day stuff. i even cut his hair, we make love (tho he doesn't kiss me on the lips) boy this is so hard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know about you but I see progress and healing going on here. Many would be delighted to be in your situation from either side of this at 4 months.<P>You also stated and asked <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>how long does it take the BS to come to a place where they want the marriage to work? how long to i be quiet? we have treated each other with more respect these past few weeks than when we were first married. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It would appear to this bystander that he indeed wants the marriage to work. He is showing strong signs of healing and he clearly wants it to work or as you said you would have been on the streets.<P>Portland, keep doing what you are doing. You and your marriage are indeed coming along. Your H is healing, he is treating you with more respect. Just avoid the LB of blame shifting. I know he wasn't perfect and beleive me he knows he wasn't perfect, but an affair of the heart and the body is very hard for the BS to get over.<P>My guess is that things will improve but you will see bursts of anger as he encounters a trigger or two. Just remember the anger is often the way people react to pain. You two made some serious mistakes, but avoid the one is so easy to make. Mistaking his anger for hate. He doesn't hate you, but he is uncertain about you and himself. <P>So keep up the good work, apologize when you can and tell him you love him as much as you can. He is hearing you, and he wants to hear you, it is just that he has some healing and accomodating to do within himself.<P>Hope something I have said helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<BR>

Well JL, you are an inspiration. What's your story????<BR> You pretty much have our story right on: the 3some was NOT, all my H doing, it was ALL mine. I encouraged, i wanted, i needed, i lusted, i desired. he's always wanted it, (what man hasn't?) we would have long talks about it late at night about me and the OW. i was obsessing. i don't know what i was thinking, it really was some fog. I may have incorrectly described something, or didn't make it real clear, but truth is, that if it weren't for me, we'd have never gone down this road. About the A: i started that on my own with OM too, first. then his wife & he got together with me one time..toward the end..i deceived her all the way. Now, months before i caved in, he was luring me in with lots of conversation. boy was i dumb. but, i liked it. that's the awful part. i even cried in the backyard and said i can not have an A....I totally missed the snake and the temptation stuff. i was lovin the attention. these people had already confessed to us that she had the year A with the neighbor on my other side & that she had A with H bestfriend, so we were on to them. My H knew all this too. Then, i started spending too much time talking outside, going for walks,with the OM and he confessed things to me that his W knew nothing of and that he'd had about 4 others. We were all 4 friends and my H liked this guy. I would have breakfast out with him, tell my H and he didn't flinch. Well, the point is that i am taking responsibility. My H does NOT know the depths of my EA with OM. It was several months of working up to the actual physical part. I was basically "Captured" and added to his list., because as i look back, i was so weak and vulnerable and my marriage was not where i wanted it, blah blah blah. its the classic A. my H had threatened D in '98 and that made me sick since we had no real reason to D. No adultery, no phys abuse, no nothin but one depressed wife over her mom's loss and unfeeling H, me goin through a midlife crisis so to speak, and getting caught in temptation. We should have both said NO up front and cut the entire friendship off in the beginning. we both knew about their lifestyle. <BR> i do need to make a few points. My H does NOT, i repeat, DOES NOT, know the depths of this A. He didn't ask alot of questions and i didn't push it. i think the sex part is what is killin my H and that only occured 5-6 times. It was months of talking, eating, walking that my H does not get. The OM was filling my needs. i desparately wanted my H to fill them but he had blinders on. i even gave H the workbook from Harley on lovebusters and filled out my contract and first questionaire back in 9/99 and he would not. So, here we are. <BR> First, i might add that I feel wonderful. I know that I want this and him so much more clearer now. I'm on a mission of experiencing this miracle like no other i've experienced in my life. I like setting boundaries, i like taking responsibility. i grew up with all the dysfunctional junk that everyone else does.<BR> My counselor says to wait until he wants to know all the details, if ever. He's satisfied right now to know that i had sex more than once. I tried to tell him that i thought OM "loved" me, but i think it was all too much for my H to handle in May. Taking two months off in the summer was interesting i.e. going back home to his family and being practically "normal" except no PDA's. And,i met my H at a hotel in VA for one night (he was in DC for 2 nights on business)while i was there with the 3 kids and that was the day he hugged me in the parking lot and said to "be careful" as i was driving back to KY that day. It was so wonderful to spend that night with him and know he wanted to hug me. It was a sign. my counselor said to look for a sing. <BR> MY PROBLEM IS, i just want to TALK..... i have deep needs to TALK..... i want to tell him what i think, what i feel, how i'm growing, where i want to go with all this, etc. etc. etc. and i HATE waiting...my counselor says that will be my hardest challenge as it is so out of character for me. but, how long do i not talk about feelings? how long do i wait for him to open up on his own? do i approach him and ask him to take me to dinner as i want to share things if he'll listen? i don't want Angry Out any more. we've lived with that for 20 years. But, i think we will be ok. I have a meeting with the counselor fri and am thinking of asking him to join me again. why not? also, he wants to go to Oktoberfest, (the real one) with some friends on Monday. seems he doesn't mind goin with other people places, or to a recent cocktail party, etc. So, the tough part is wanting to talk about it from my point of view and waiting on him to open up. He hurts, he needs help too, he has issues..... we both do. So, when will he <BR>decide to get help and commit to this relationship? or do you think he's already committed. I'm so afraid to touch on the subject as i don't want him angry to the point of sending me off. Yet, today our son was home from school and he said to take care of him. deep down, i know my H wants me in his life. Even tho he's never said how much he needs me, or is proud of me, i realize how much he does need me and loves me. just can't say it right now. WOW. can we be closer than we've ever known? can we fall in love again? i want to with him, no one else..... thank you for your encouragement. I'll keep telling him i love him .....<BR>

Portland,<P>If your H doesn't want the details don't tell him. However, I think it would be fine to tell him about you. How much you have grown, what you are feeling, why.<P>It may be possible to ask him to listen to you because you want to talk about things that you feel about yourself. That way his defenses won't come up. It has only been four months, but if you have this need to tell him how you are seeing things differently, then I think you can tell him.<P>I just got done posting to someone about people changing and how I don't think they really do change. But what does change is their perspective about themselves and the people around them. They may allow people to see more of who they are or even shall we say, restructure how they present themselves, but they don't basically change.<P>It would seem that perhaps this is happening to you. You might even think about printing out this thread to show him someday. Certainly parts of it about your feelings of needing to tell him how you have changed would be good for him to hear.<P>Portland, have patience and continue to show him love. I would guess around about the 6 month point he will begin to change some, and by 1 year you should see some real progress. It does appear that he wants this marriage to work, but wanting it to and being in an emotional condition to help it work are two different things.<P>You did ask about being quiet. I think it depends on what you are being quiet about. But, do talk with him about yourself. It is the defensive walls he has erected to protect himself that you are seeing, but they go up and down depending on what he feels the topic of discussion is going to be. <P>So it is time for the Trojan Horse , talk about yourself and how you are doing. Just remember no LB's.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL, i agree on the change issue. People are who they are, BUT, people do change how they present themselves otherwise MB would have no existence and trying to change LB's would not be needed. see my point? But, my inner character, the me, my soul. IT does not change. i agree thoroughly. Now, as far as talking. my 15 yr old son said this morning that he always things we're getting a divorce and would live with his dad. i told him we are not right now and he needs to stop focusing on that and seeing us change. Boy, its hard when your kids notice things. i have talked too much about D over the years. Remember we have had years of LB's. <P>Finally, do i take his still being here and not talking as a sign that he wants this marriage to work? are we truly in recovery if he doesn't say verbally that he wants the marriage? do i confront him on that and ask him to tell me about his feelings? or do i just wait til he expresses. that's the being quiet part i'm talking about. Not putting him under pressure. not having AO's, DJ, etc. Sometimes i just want to blow up in his face, he makes me so mad, it has been years that i haven't felt loved, and now he doesn't? when i say I LOVE YOU, he just says "yeah" like he just doesn't believe it. This is ALOT of work. But, i am willing to persevere through these next few months...<P>i want to tell him so much, guess all i can do, is ask him for his time. i did send him a few letters, one just under 2 weeks ago, when i sent the MB stuff to him. He has not commented a bit about that. i'd like to know why? if he's not willing to listen or talk now, then i should wait? right? what choice do i have? i don't want to leave. <P>Thanks PS. i appreciate being able to write all my thoughts here. its like a diary. i love to write and express myself. so for now, this is my outlet as it is with so many others i see. <P>

Portland,<P>You asked: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Finally, do i take his still being here and not talking as a sign that he wants this marriage to work? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes take it as a sign that he wants it to work. Portland, focus on his actions, but focus more on yours. If you have been threatening D for many years, then he may still not be sure that your change in attitude is for real. He may think this is only going to work until you get mad at him again. It is your actions and words you need to focus on, not his. You need to do things you want to do and need to do to accomplish your goal: rebuilding this marriage into something better. <P>I would guess that he will be very reluctant toward any suggestions toward changing his approach to things. Sort of the "why should I try, and she doesn't deserve me trying" response. However, consider this: If you change how you behave around him, toward him, how you handle your anger, and your pain, he will notice and you will start to see gradual changes in him. If you don't respond with anger and threats, he will gradually get used to knot having to defend himself even in a disagreement.<P>You can change his approach be changing yours. You have read here and while it would be great if he read the material (and he may have) he is very likely not going to do anything until you put your money where your mouth is. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>are we truly in recovery if he doesn't say verbally that he wants the marriage? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Are you in recovery??? I don't know if you are or your are not,but you are not heading toward divorce right now and you want to recover, so you are at least half way there if not all the way there. Just remember your H may not want to give voice to what he feels because he is very confused right now. He loves you, he hates you, he wants you, he is afraid of you. You must remember there is no one on this planet except your children that can hurt him as much as you can. Such vulnerability is hard to face.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>do i confront him on that and ask him to tell me about his feelings? or do i just wait til he expresses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Express yours about yourself, and tell him how you feel about him (if it is positive ), but let him get comfortable with the idea that you don't plan on going anywhere. I think you will gradually see him open up. Right now the answer you would get is probably tied to just when you ask him. If something has triggered him, the answer would be no, a day later it could be yes.<P>My bet is that it is yes, but he is uncertain about a lot of things, including that you want to make it work and that you are serious. I know, I know you have told him. But remember vows were exchanged and they didn't exactly bind. So trust takes time.<P>Portland this next phrase is often said to the BS but it applies to the WS as well. This takes Time and Patience. Just remind yourself when you get frustrated, T&P, T&P. Repeat after me: T&P, T& P. <P>You will get the hang of it. Give that son of yours a hug, and tell him it is your goal that a divorce will not happen, no matter what you have said in the past. You cannot guarentee it, but you sure are going to try and make it work. This is rough on kids, and I think teenagers feel it the most.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL, First i want to thank you for taking the Time & Effort to thoughtfully consider answering my questions. after bible study this morning, i realize that it is God who rebuilds but I am must take my proper part to remain obedient and perservere... and just like you said:<BR>------------------------------------------------------------<BR>If you change how you behave around him, toward him, how you handle your anger, and your pain, he will notice and you will start to see gradual changes in him. If you don't respond with anger and threats, he will gradually get used to knot having to defend himself even in a disagreement.<BR>____________________________________________________________<P>So, i am doing just thought, by some miracle. I feel like i am out of the fog, like i have only one chance on this earth to do the right thing and this is it. Lots is at stake. i was raised without real morals, he was raised with plenty, i was liberal, he conservative, we're both opinionated, both strong-willed, but its never too late to finetune the attitude and repair my own heart. I was drawn to his stability and over the years turned it against myself because i thought i never would meet up to his standards and expectations and yet I have most certainly been a great mom, friend to others, citizen and volunteer in many communities around the world. And i sunk into a terrible "feel sorry for myself" mode filled with anger, resentment, and hostility. boy that can make you blind...i first had to forgive myself and realize that instead of being rebellious and disobedient, i need to be kind and approach this tenderhearted and with the deep love i truly feel for him. i honestly didn't think i loved him because of so many things... that's another story and i can only take responsiblity for my part in this marriage but you get the point..<P>Again, thank you. Are you a real person? did you experience adultery in your own marriage? i notice you have diligently answered over 400 posts on MB. You must have a good story. Care to share? <BR>

Portland,<P>You mentioned a few things in one of your posts that I forgot to respond to. You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> MY PROBLEM IS, i just want to TALK..... i have deep needs to TALK..... i want to tell him what i think, what i feel, how i'm growing, where i want to go with all this, etc. etc. etc. and i HATE waiting...my counselor says that will be my hardest challenge as it is so out of character for me. but, how long do i not talk about feelings? how long do i wait for him to open up on his own? do i approach him and ask him to take me to dinner as i want to share things if he'll listen? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am a little confused here. You want to talk with him and tell him things right??? Then you are wondering about how long it will be for him to open up. There are two different things. You can tell him the things you feel, in fact I would suggest that you write them down so that you have your thoughts straight. <P>Then I would suggest that you ask him if he would be willing to sit still for an hour and just let you talk. Tell him you will do something nice for him if he does. Anything of his choice. Tell him he doesn't have to say a thing, he doesn't have to agree, but let him know you need to say things that may hurt, but that he must understand one thing you do love him.<P>If he agrees, you have the floor MADAM! Talk you heart out. Now, I would caution you with this. Have no expectations, just view this as you getting things out. Don't expect great revelations from him, or for him to announce undying love or anything like that. My guess is that he will here it, but it will takes weeks or longer for him to truely understand it. Just make sure he hears the truth from you, your actions will very likely lead to him understanding what you have said. <P>It may even lead to him asking quesions. You could stop every now and then and ask if understands or what he things he is hearing from you. You might be surprised how what you say is being interpretted by him.<P><BR>[/quote]i don't want Angry Out any more. we've lived with that for 20 years. But, i think we will be ok. I have a meeting with the counselor fri and am thinking of asking him to join me again. why not? also, he wants to go to Oktoberfest, (the real one) with some friends on Monday. seems he doesn't mind goin with other people places, or to a recent cocktail party, etc. So, the tough part is wanting to talk about it from my point of view and waiting on him to open up. He hurts, he needs help too, he has issues..... we both do. So, when will he decide to get help and commit to this relationship? or do you think he's already committed. I'm so afraid to touch on the subject as i don't want him angry to the point of sending me off. Yet, today our son was home from school and he said to take care of him. deep down, i know my H wants me in his life. Even tho he's never said how much he needs me, or is proud of me, i realize how much he does need me and loves me. just can't say it right now.[/quote]<P>Portland, he may never seek help. He may do like most of use men and "just deal" with it internally. I don't know if you will get a grand pronouncement of his commitment, at least not for awhile. It may surprise you to know that Harley mentions that in his experience it is not uncommon for the WS to "never apologize" to the BS. Now that seems cold but it apparently does work that way.<P>Portland if you can learn to talk with your H and tell him your feelings without making it seem like it is his fault, you will find that he will listen. He will realize that he doesn't have to put up his defenses everytime you "want to talk with him." God, men hate to hear that from their W's. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>WOW. can we be closer than we've ever known? can we fall in love again? i want to with him, no one else.....thank you for your encouragement. I'll keep telling him i love him .....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, you can. It is done around here frequently. Tell him what your goals are. Tell him why you have these goals. Don't try the typical female, leading questions and then if he doesn't answer correctly you jump down his throat. Just flat tell him what you feel. That is my suggestion.<P>Finally, I am a real person. But, I came to this board years ago, not because of infidelity, but rather I felt my marriage was over. I have a story around here somewhere, but I don't have time today to find it. It is an amazing place this board, but it is addictive. <P>Hang in there this can be worked out.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL, thanks for your response. We're going to the real "oktoberfest" on Tues. First, if he didn't want me in his life, i imagine he would have said he didn't want to go "with me" to this event, but instead, he has organized it with his buddy & wife and one other M, so five of us will train. i know its a group situation, but i feel great knowing H could have said no, we don't feel like going, or no, he'd much rather go without me. I am kind of fun to be with.... So, that's a positive step. I was thinking of telling H that i will only talk on neutral ground because i'm afraid of his angry outbursts, but then, that would put up his defenses wouldn't it? so, instead, i will just ask him out, i've mentioned i really had stuff to tell him, and he said "well, i'm around all the time." he doesn't understand that it is difficult to do this in the home. our past two exchanges were awful in front of kids and taking up so much negative energy. i'm done with that. i choose to be peaceful about this and tenderly approach this. so, i will keep you updated about our "talks" whenever that is. <BR> if you haven't experienced infidelity than how do you really understand what people like us are going through?

Portland,<P>Before you start the talks write down what you want to say. Then think about why you want to say it: is it important to you, is it to hurt him, is it to make him feel bad, is it to help him, will it help you, etc. If it passes the test of being for the good rather than the bad, keep it in for your talk. Then go to the next point and do the same. This takes time and that is why writing it is the best thing.<P>It seems to me your H is telling you he is open to talking with you or at least listening to you. If you set the stage correctly and make sure not to raise his defenses you will be able to begin. Portland my guess is that once he sees that you can talk with him about deep things without you crying (hurts men to see women cry ) or getting anger, or even depressed, then he will begin to see hope for telling you things.<P>As for your last question. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> if you haven't experienced infidelity than how do you really understand what people like us are going through? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is called life experience, reading alot here, but mostly just meeting alot of people over many years. If you go back and read what I have posted to you, the advice isn't about your A. It is about how to approach another person who is hurt/afraid/defensive these situations are not unique to infidelity. <P>Your questions have been about communications under difficult situations, not about why you had an affair or how does your H feel. I can imagine, as I have had a few loses in my life, but I always differ to people who have been there for that advice when it comes to describing what either of you feel. I do know something about communications and the human condition. <P>You see marriagebuilders is about building marriages not just about infidelity. Interestingly, what destroys marriages is often what leads to infidelity. An inability to communicate with our spouses and understand them. That I do have experience in.<P>Portland, having said all that it doesn't make me an expert. The Harleys and others like them are the experts. You are receiving my best advice, but ultimately you will have to decide what to listen to and what not to listen to.<P>In any event best of luck. I envy you being able to go to Oktober Fest. Have alot of fun and enjoy the time with your H. I suspect it will help the both of you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Thank you for confirming that this is all about communicating. I spoke to my counselor for almost 2 hours last night, at her house. We prayed, cried, and i came to a greater understanding of myself, AGAIN, as we addressed some of my own issues, and what i've learned. The A, was a final chapter to almost 4 years of misery. it wasn't all about the A, its all about what led up to it, what has changed, etc. i will write out everything i want to say, like you suggest. i also realize that i will be used greatly in my H life right now as he learns to forgive and heal. Onward HO.....

Hey JL and anyone else who cares to respond <BR> I should be happy about the progress we've made in only 4 months, then a set back last night makes me feel like this is going to be much harder than i thought. Rebuilding trust. We went out to dinner on 10/1 and H just listened. I talked and talked, had written out all i needed to say. He seemed receptive and thoughtful. It's like this is a test. After i explained how i wanted to treat him and change myself we have a set back... wow.<BR> Then, we left the next am with 3 friends for Oktoberfest. The day was wonderful, sunny, fun and the trainride was great too. Something i realize about people. There always seems to be conversation toward sex. No matter what, especially after drinking, people, including the women and myself, talk, laugh and playfully include sex in conversation. does anyone else find this to be true??? think about it...<BR> Well, two of my H collegues were being gross, pinching themselves in the nipples (YUK)and laughing about it,then one tried to pinch my H, he laughs, plays along, and i eventually flat out said don't even try to pinch me or i'd hit someone. the w of one of them was right in there with it all, including lifting her shirt for her H to see her bra. What fun people have at Oktoberfest, huh? <BR> well, as we left to board the train, i tried to pinch the one guy, missed, and he pinched my arm back, and the W said "ok, she got you, and you got her back" and my H heard this and went nuts. He was mad at me for not choosing to stay away from this action and behaviour. H thought M touched me in chest, then thought this was all my fault for encouraging it, then went on to be a total embarrassment to himself, and said how i should have asked for his help, i didn't think i needed it, as no one was actually doing anything wrong, including my H playing right into the game. Finally, on the train, i was crying, the M was crying, and my husband still thought this was all about me. well, it is all about my H trusting me we decided. this is going to be a long haul. H apologized to friend, but never apologized to me, seems he realizes friend didn't do anything wrong, and if he didn't, then why did I? it was all in jest. <BR> well, i realize i can't even do that if i want H to trust me. i must put a stop to the conversation, not be any part of it, not go there, and totally exclude myself from that kind of play, because it means my H trust in me and that's more important then anything. Before the A, that's all the 4 of us did, was teased, would take tops off, etc. it was all a game, until reality sets in. why do some people play like this and others do not? is it because we are all really quite sexual? after an A, i believe we can not be around that kind of influence, if ever. if that is a weakness. but i notice that sex talk comes up in most places, like a dinner we recently went to, it often turned toward sex and thong underwear, you name it, it was touched on. <BR> am i the only weird one out here that finds this to be true? so, after a really wonderful day, it ends with tears, hurt, and his collegue generally disrespecting H for coming unglued.

Hi Portland,<P>Just wanted you to know that I have read your post. I was not able to read the entire thread. JL is a long poster (LOL!) But usually filled with good thought provoking info. You have great support there. <P>Can't add too much (I am usually long winded) LOL!! But needed to let you know that it is difficult to always know what will set WS off. So, just keep being good and know that for now you don't get all the privileges that your H may accord to others. If your recovery continues, he will be able to rebuild your trust and visa versa. Then incidents like what you outlined may be more in the past. The need to LB will be reduced. <P>Take Care, <BR>L.<BR>

Orchid,<P>Me a long poster????? Surely you jest. <P>Portland,<P>I think you're finding something out. When something is different within you, you see things differently. I know I never realized how many people had back trouble until I did. My W became very aware of how many pregnant women there were when she became pregnant. You don't realize how many people step on your toes until you have a sore foot.<P>Yes, sex is a common topic of discussion. It is everywhere. It is in advertising, almost any TV show, movies. It is a dominate topic. I realize that your behavior was innocent and all in fun. I also realize your H was out of line for his intense reaction.<P>However, you can look at this a different way. The fact that your H responded the way he did, shows one thing very clearly: he has strong feelings for you. He is probably very embarrassed for his outburst and probably blames it on you for finally getting into the playing around.<P>The problem he is having is not only does not know how to trust you right now, he doesn't trust himself. Trust comes from familiarity, experience, confidence. I doubt that he is familar with the situation he finds himself in. He certainly doesn't have any exerience with this situation, thus he doesn't really know where you or he are coming from here. Finally, confidence, he has lost all confidence that he knows what you are thinking or will react to certain situation. And he certainly doesn't have a lot of confidence in himself to read the situation or to make you happy.<P>Do you see what is going to be required here?? Time Time to build a consistent pattern of behavior so that he is familar with how you are now reacting to things and how he reacts. Time to gain experience in dealing with you, being around you, learning what you really want. And finally, time to gain some confidence that he can predict how you will react in different situations.<P>Interestingly, you are going to have to do the same with him. The affair opened a new door in your life, but now many things have to be redefined and understood. It takes time.<P>Have patience.<P>God Bless,<P>JL