Another conversation this morning...very spontaneous...unplanned...<P><BR>Bits & Pieces...<P>Me...'Would buying a new bed...one that you chose and liked help?' (He has never liked to come to bed...)<P>H...'I don't know. Why is this such a problem for you?'<P>Me...'I like to sleep with my H. I don't think it is good role-modeling for the kids...'<P>H...'I'm a grown man...I'll go to bed when I want to. Why have you always bugged about this...if I want to watch tv...be on the computer...work out late at night.'<P>Me...'It's not when you go to bed...it's not what you do...when I ask you to come up, you are usually already asleep.'<P>H...(reaches way back to even before we were married about this issue and others...)<P>Me..."I believe you think this is about control...it's not for me...it's about expectations when we married that my H would want to sleep with me...I don't remember it being an issue until after we were married." <P>H...(doesn't remember it this way....back to I didn't listen...<I>hard to listen when nothing's being said.</I>...<P>Then came the stuff about my changes, but not changing and how he's supposed to recognize my changes but I'm not recognizing his...<P>me...so I have this list you keep checking off of changes I'm supposed to make...I don't even know what you want to change or that you wanted to change…<P>h…that’s right…you don’t have to know…<P>Then we go back to his “I don’t want to work on this”<P>Me….then what are we doing…existing…living? I don’t understand…I live in fear and uncertainty that you’ll suddenly decide you don’t like what I’m doing and leave…that what I’m doing isn’t good enough…in fact that’s how all this is to me…I do…I change…you get to decide if its worth it and I’m hanging…if we’re going to do this shouldn’t we do it? Aren’t there things we can do so it isn’t just co-existing…<P>H….I don’t want it to work.<P>Me…(in spontaneous tears…) Why do you say that to me? When you do, I feel like your doing it intentionally to hurt me…<P>H…I’m not. It’s just how I feel. You want all this and I don’t. <I> now here’s a statement that I didn’t get, but we had to get ready for work and I couldn’t pursue it…</I>…I’m not going to eff up my life again…<P>Me…When will you understand that through all this I have learned how much I really love you…not you the husband…or you the income you represent? Yes, I wanted a family…but that has always included YOU as the head of that family…<P><BR><B>This is where I feel like I'm married to SnL...it's like he saying I'm here isn't that enough? You have all these changes to make and if I think they're good enough I'll keep staying...but I don't have to give anything that you ask for...yeah, it's not fair but so what...I DON'T WANT THIS TO WORK anyway...</B><P>Cali<P><BR>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I><p>[This message has been edited by JustPlainCali (edited September 27, 2001).]

Cali--<P>I am sorry that he said those things to you--I know how you feel ,though. My H has chosen to be here with us, but then that is where the effort on his part has stopped.<P>"Hey I'm here aren't I?"----They just don't get it! We want MORE! WE NEED more!! WE DESERVE MORE!!<P>I feel that my H and yours are in the same boat right now---just coasting---not doing anything----just existing...<P>I have made up my mind that I am NOT going to take it anymore. Either try or don't...and I don't mean a halfa$$ed effort either. I have been willing to do whatever it takes to make this work, but I need something in return.<P>I think it has a lot to do with boundaries---I don't think I have enforced mine enough---I feel that I keep getting walked on..<P>What do we do?? Enjoy 1/2 a man? Learn to live with a partner who is JUST THERE?? I don't know.....<P>I need something to give him a little kick in the behind! Don't know what that is. Do you know??<P>Krystal

yikes.....I am a ws, and I share some characteristics with your H, but I am not that much like him, first off I am a whole lot more honest.....IMO he is messing with you. He mistreats your attempts to communicate in a very childish way. I have said similar things (like the going to bed example) but, I have moved past that, and recognize such as hurtful and aggressive. I don't know why, but I don't see any effort at all on your H part, I may voice things here that drive people crazy, but they are about my search. I do not treat terry like that, or like G treats you. And I am doing lots of work (besides just being here). <P>Nor do I say I don't want it to work..... but I have, let me explain, maybe it applies. Sometimes when w gets in this woe is me mode, you will never change, you don't love me, maybe I should just divorce you, etc.... I find myself saying you bet, I don't like you, yep let's get divorced. I do so cause her woe is me feels very manipulative, and is a huge trigger (cause of our past), so I combat it by being hateful, not on purpose exactly, it just happens, is almost primal. I am sure their is some complex psychological explanation for it, but maybe this happens with you some. The worst thing to ask a ws what they want, what changes in you, the marriage, etc, do you love me, why don't you love me. It makes us crazy. Just do your stuff, do not focus one iota on your ws, let them come to you, as you walk the path farther and farther away, they will either run to you, or eventually you will be divorced..... you cannot make someone love you, it is dangerous to convince them to love you (all the children and family and old love letter approaches). Just leave the ws alone, negotiate what is needed financially and children, and let them be free to choose you. You are still very manipulative cali, it permenates your posts, it is not malicious even ostensibly helpful, but it is causing you friction and unhappiness. You cannot fix G, only he can do that.<P>cali...'I like to sleep with my H. I don't think it is good role-modeling for the kids...<P>disrespectful judgement. same with rest of that issue.<P>cali......."I believe you think this is about control...it's not for me...it's about expectations when we married that my H would want to sleep with me...I don't remember it being an issue until after we were married."<P><BR>snl....disrespectful again, he is not your student, stop educating him. Telling him what he thinks (and no, changing it to what you believe doesn't change that).<P>cali... This is where I feel like I'm married to SnL...it's like he saying I'm here isn't that enough? You have all these changes to make and if I think they're good enough I'll keep staying...but I don't have to give anything that you ask for...yeah, it's not fair but so what...I DON'T WANT THIS TO WORK anyway..<P>snl....Being there should count. But I don't tell my wife this is about her meeting my standards, this is about who we are, and how we fit, that is as much me as it is her. And we discuss whether I am able to meet her needs as well. The problem is, there is always a stayer, and a leaver, so the roles are somewhat defined. But I do not believe, never have, is my wifes fault. If we had to assess blame (which is useless anyways), it is more my fault than hers.<P>sorry you are having such a tough time lately, but for what it is worth, I sense you are not fully dealing with what you really really want, and are still trying to make your marriage fit a picture, you have changed the picture some, but the problem lies in trying to make it fit that picture. IMO stick to the plan, be the best cali you can be, woo him as you will, and internalize you do not have to have this marriage to have a healthy productive life, be open to it, but be open also to moving on. I think that is essential to a successful reconcilliation effort when the issues were control and dependentcy. Good luck<P>

<<<<Cali>>>>><P>Just thought you needed a hug today. Sorry things are not going well for you. I remember back in May when H was here "for the kids", here in body, but not in spirit. It was pure hell, at best.<P>I am glad he left at that point so I didn't have to hear him pining over OW, or have the affair right in my face when it started back up.<P>I still vote for plan B myself... SOMETHING to stop the monotony.<P>Good luck, Cali.<BR>hbH

Cali,<P>OK, I take back what I said in my other post about being proud .<P>This is one of those times when SNL is telling you like it is(except for 1 item and I'll get to that in a moment). You've got to stop these kinds of conversations. It's damaging any progress that occurs in his mind and sets the relationship back.<P>snl...."Being there should count"<P>Just being there doesn't count for a hill of beans when he's telling you he doesn't WANT it to work. Just being there, in that case, is just more of him just making himself comfortable with absolutely no thought or concern for you. What does he think you( and his kids) are , some charity case? Excuse me? He's learning nothing by staying home, he's simply taking advantage of you. He's USING you and he needs to get out until he decides he wants it to work. I'm telling you, he'll respect you a lot more and he'll have much, much more opportunity to experience exactly what he's up against losing. The way things are now he still can't experience the reality of what he's got to lose.You have provided no consequence to his behavior or his mindset. This is a man that needs a REALITY check and only you can give it to him.

Yeah--SnL--Whey I typed them I recognized them for the disrespectful judgments they were....almost typed disrespectful judgment after them...<P>and, yeah, I know you're not my H...but the circular reasoning...the holding back from really doing it is what makes me crazy when you and other post!!! The fence sitting drives me NUTZ!!!<P>FaithNHim...<P>yeah...I do know what needs to be done...I've just been holding off until I really can't take it anymore...he keeps giving me just enough hope that seems to replenish my love bank just enough...<P>mthhrhbard has recommended a 'modified' plan b...I say modified because with three children the reality of a true--no contact plan b is probably not realistic...<P>I'm not sure the time is right and feel that I will know when it is...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

My WS acts the same way about the same issues..... kind of scary. ie. Sleeping alone, saying she will come to bed with me, but almost never doing so, giving reasons why not, etc. Sounds like you are hitting on some raw nerves like I do about certain issues.<P>I think my WS is still in withdrawl and I use it to justify her actions. I have to try and remember to take baby steps. I find myself wanting to move along to quick with my expectations being set to high. I am trying to set goals that are attainable. Easier said than done for me though.<P>My 2 cents: hang in there. try not to LB. and take care of yourself! From my prospective you are making progress!<P>Take care!!!

BTW--<P>Part of the conversation did center on my telling him that I wasn't holding him here(home) any longer...that I knew I was wrong and if he really felt like leaving he should...in fact...I felt like he tried to 'push my buttons' so I would give up and tell him to leave...<I> probably why I resist plan B so hard...</I><P>He said he'd heard me say that before...<P>I said the stuff about just existing...<P>I DON'T WANT TO JUST EXIST...Why can't we 'work' on it? If you're gonna stay??? <P>I swear it seems like some kind of penance...I'll stay but I'll be so danged miserable and angry...<P>Cali<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali you truly have put your heart and soul into trying to save your marriage that is obvious to all of us. I agree that your H seems to think that as long as he is there you should have nothing to complain about. It seems as though he is definitely undecided about want he really wants. You are also right when you say that you are just dangling. You must decide what kind of marriage you want. You and only you know what is tolerable in your situation. I know moving to a "motified" plan B is not easy with children because that's where I am. Take a few steps back as so many here have suggested to me. Try not to LB, be the best Cali you can be not just for your H but for yourself. We all know that trying to convey our feelings about M to a spouse who is just not ready or doesn't know what they want is just wasted time and energy on our part. Hang in there Cali we are all here for you.<BR>Hugs and prayers,<BR>C

Cali, mark my words (print them out if you like).<P>Someday you are going to say to yourself:<P>"I should have done this months ago and saved myself all that extra pain."<P>Right about the time your H comes back to you after he has moved out and starts to say how much he WANTS to work on the marriage...<P>OR, right about the time you get the D papers signed and you feel immense relief for finally taking charge of your life (not HIS, yours).<P>HbH

Hi Cali:<P>You know there is a world of difference between being at home and not working on the marriage and openly expressing desire not to be there. This implys to me that he is resentful of having to be there and is blaming you for forcing him (however you are doing so in his eyes) to be there when he wants to be somewhere else.<P>I don't think you can make him want to stay right now...he apparently has seen the greener grass (he thinks) in other pastures and wants to graze there for a while...not that he really wants to give up his marriage..probably he would be happy with you agreeing to him having both you and the others....but you won't so he resents you for making things hard for him.<P>I truly don't see any solution for this situation but to set him free...let him go with the understanding that you think he has some lessons to learn and that you'll try and be there for him if he decides he's learned what he really wants...but that your life can't just end while he's deciding...and you are preparing yourself for getting on with your life...with or without him. <P>You're through begging, pleading, arguing and trying to figure out what's going on in his head...for now that's his job...your job is you and what is best for you and your future. <P>I think we BS try to hard to do all the work on our marriage...and there is a point at which we have made enough effort without any reciprocal actions on our WS's part....it's time for them to either work on the marriage or leave it. I think it's time for your H to leave it.<P><BR>Faye

I certainly didn't mean staying in marriage and doing nothing but freeload was acceptable. I meant staying counts, if you are doing anything worthwhile at all. It is the first step sorta, and if you are only doing 2 steps, staying counts alot, sometimes that is huge in itself. But folks who stay, with the you made me, I will do it but be miserable, or do it and use it just to get what they want make me....... well SICK. That is so abusive, I would probably LB their [censored] right out the door.

So here I am...<P>back where I was in between 11 and 18.<P>my stomach has a big knot in it...I haven't had one in so long I almost forgot what it felt like...<P>and I walk on eggshells...I hold in so many emotions...just like I used to...<P>when I was afraid to do or say anything that would set a stepfather off...<P>I am back to being meek and sublimating myself for the dominant male in my household...<P>I try to say the words...I try...please leave...please find yourself...but I can't...<P>How? when the knot in my stomach reaches my throat and chokes out all the words... and tears fill my eyes and run down my face? as they are now...just thinking about it...<P>and, yes...this is probably just a bunch of hormones talking...I promise to go to the drugstore tomorrow...<P>but I just can't say the words yet...I can't...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

We understand....I took it for a long time...when the time is right you'll find the words...for you.<P>We with you either way. {{{{{Hugs}}}}}}}}<P>Faye

Dear Cali,<P>I heard, 'well at least I am here'. Yes in body but not in mind and spirit. Did that feel ok? For me, no. I sent him out again. That was in August. <P>Does your H see greener pastures? I think not. Otherwise he'd be gone. H is frustrated that he does not appreciate his family and doesn't want to be forced to but may feel guilty not to but...... you see the vicious cycle of the fog? <P>Yep, Cali he is still in the fog. You know what, so is my H. Coming out but still there. <P>Can you help him to have a better peace of mind? Probably not. Why? Because he has to come to that reasoning. This is about taking the horse to the trough but you can't make him drink. <P>What will it take? IMHO, lay back. Leave him be. Don't try to reason too much with him. He gets frustrated with you when he doesn't get it. He knows, he sees but he doesn't feel it and this makes him angry, mad and frustrated. Then he takes it out on you. See, you (like me) bring this stuff on us. We want so much to help them but we just can't. <P>Hard as it is, it may be better not to try. At least not daily. Try cutting back on the talking a bit. Let him find the reasons why he loved his family. Let him find his real self. When he is ready he will talk. In the meantime, you talk with us here. Maybe a vent but we will listen. <P>K made a statement about recovery on another thread. I will try to find it. It was very thought provoking. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Cali,<P>Several people have already said some of what I wanted to say, but I'll do it again anyway.<P>My feelings about your H are similar to Orchid's. I think this stuff still frustrates him. Your bugging him about it just reminds him how little progress he's making. <B>You're touching his wounds.</B> He tries to push you away and make you hurt too, and you know the comment that does that most effectively. <P>Lately, you've been letting his poison roll off your back and it stops him in his tracks as well. Just gotta hope it's the PMS thing.<P>He's clearly not very verbal about this stuff, but you are. He's showing his choice by his actions (I agree with Orchid here). He may <I>say/</I> that he effed up before and that's why he's here now. That doesn't matter. He has to make his choice based on what he wants NOW, based on how he feels NOW. I think that's why he's confused. Things are different now.<P>It looks like you had trouble with your agreements yesterday (Yeah, I know about <I>"Don't take anything personally"</I> too). I guess the message is that there's no magic here. Agreements take continual work (daily?) to maintain. Hmmm... just like MB stuff. I know you can get back to them.<P>Jeffers<P> <BR>

Yep Jeffers...I was touching his wounds...the thing is--is that the conversations took me by surprise...he started them & so I hadn't 'planned' my responses based on my new agreements...I still need to "internalize" them better so I am not taken by surprise and the old stuff comes out...or the old habits take force...I LIKE THE NEW, LESS ANGRY ME!<P>Some good things:<P>He's at least carrying around the Ruiz books...<P>Last night he asked me if I wanted to go to my bed...and "we" did...<P>Today...THIS IS THE BEST!!!<P>For the first time in our 15 year relationship, we had a positive talk about money .<P>He wrote down a list of all of our expenses and subtracted it from our take home to see if it was possible to get a CD player put into the car this month and still have savings!!!<P>I told him I knew how important music was to him and I was not going to say yes or no...but that he could make an informed choice...and I would accept it either way!!!<P>Next good thing...he had 300 left over minutes on his phone last month!!! The actual bill hasn't come...so I'm not sure if I should look at it....<P>The last two days he has done things FOR ME to make me feel better based on our conversations!!! <P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Hi Cali:<P>After reading Orchid and Jeffer's replies to your post I was wondering if I had missed something so I did a seach and reviewed what you have posted in the last few months to get a better idea of what you were dealing with.<P>Oh was I mistaken in my analysis...your WH is definite not wanting out of your marriage...and he is fighting himself so hard not to want it...probably because of your Plan A efforts...that he is saying what he thinks will have the most negative effect possible so that you will not push him faster then he wants to go in this recovery business.<P>Probably in his own mind he convinced himself that he no longer wanted this marraige...and he is still trying to cling to that idea...but you are making it tougher and tougher. I know it's hard when he says and does things that look as if they are intended to hurt you...but I would look at it as he is a wounded animal who won't let you get near him because he's in pain and fearful of helping hands. What would you do for the animal....go slow, carefully gaining its trust and trying to protect yourself from its lashing out at you in pain...you have to do the same with your WH....and to do this you have to let a lot of things just roll off your back and go on.<P>I think its interesting that after the conversation you had last night...today he is compliant and ready to work with you...I guess in his own way he realizes how extreme he is being and is trying to make up for that...could be an example of those changes he is trying to make he feels you are not noticing. <P>Anyway, disregard my previous post and let me assure you your husband is where he wants to be...even if he doesn't realize it quite yet. <P>Faye

Thank you buffy...it really means a lot to me that you took the time to search my posts...<P>That's what I think too...he's confused because he was going down one path that he thought he needed so badly to survive...he didn't believe I was capable or even wanted to change...but he has always trusted me (even over OW a couple of times )<P>Thankfully OW showed some true colors...and when I confronted him about Young-un he had to face some ugly truths about a 41 yr old man that would be 'talkin' to an 18 yr old...even if he was never her teacher AND she was graduated...<P>I think as I incorporate my plan A and my new agreements even more firmly into my actions and reactions, he will come to trust me more and will continue to demonstrate his changes.<P>Snatch of a conversation from tonight...<P>me: hey, would you check out this phone bill? there is 4 calls to somewhere for a total over $400...<P>H: I didn't make these calls.<P>me: remember when I came home from the mtn trip and there was something new on computer...a 'personal party' chat room? Could that have been it? I noticed when I clicked on it that it dialed a number.<P>H: O...yeah...d****, how stupid could I be? (continued to 'beat' himself up.<P>me: hey, don't beat yourself up...it's over...we'll just pay 1/2 this month and 1/2 next month...(A VERY DIFFERENT REACTION THAN I WOULD HAVE HAD 6 MONTHS AGO!!)<P>H: yeah, well I always said the Internet was the gateway to H***...boy, I sure took it!<P>I had such a good feeling after this conversation...I know that we'll continue to have ones like the other day (especially when I am PMSing...)...I just have to try to recognize what is going on BEFORE the fact instead of after .<P>Thanks again, Buffy, your validation of my thinking means a lot.<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Oops! realized I didn't respond to you Orchid...thanks for your comments...<P>Both you and jeffers and, now Buffy, have confirmed what I was thinking...<P>I really appreciate your analysis of the situation...<P>Been thinking about you...haven't heard how your homefront is doing...hope you are taking care of yourself!!<P>Hugs,<BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>