W and I had a discussion about a month ago about meeting needs. I said that it is possible for one person to meet all the needs of another. W did not agree. This has weighed heavily on my mind. We are discussing separation right now but are not fighting. I really love this woman with all my heart but this seems like such a structural difference that it scares the hell out of me. I'm not trying to go on a rant and I don't want anybody telling me I'm right. I want to hear opinion's of those that think one person can't meet all of your needs and tell me why it's impossible (maybe I just want to argue with you instead of my W but I will acknowlege any points you make).<P>FYI, we went to counseling and she brought this up. I have not discussed it with her since the first night we talked about it. C didn't directly answer the Q. I can accept a different point of view. I'm not trying to be right. I just want to understand the reasoning. <P>W is headed out of town right now and I called her on cell phone to clarify that I wasn't trying to take responsiblility for her happiness and told her I was talking emotional needs within the confines of marriage. I explained that I believed it was possible for one person to give another what the other person needed from another. She still disagreed. <P>who

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by whothehellisshe:<BR><STRONG>W and I had a discussion about a month ago about meeting needs. I said that it is possible for one person to meet all the needs of another. W did not agree. This has weighed heavily on my mind. We are discussing separation right now but are not fighting. I really love this woman with all my heart but this seems like such a structural difference that it scares the hell out of me. I'm not trying to go on a rant and I don't want anybody telling me I'm right. I want to hear opinion's of those that think one person can't meet all of your needs and tell me why it's impossible (maybe I just want to argue with you instead of my W but I will acknowlege any points you make).<P>FYI, we went to counseling and she brought this up. I have not discussed it with her since the first night we talked about it. C didn't directly answer the Q. I can accept a different point of view. I'm not trying to be right. I just want to understand the reasoning. <P>W is headed out of town right now and I called her on cell phone to clarify that I wasn't trying to take responsiblility for her happiness and told her I was talking emotional needs within the confines of marriage. I explained that I believed it was possible for one person to give another what the other person needed from another. She still disagreed. <P>who</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think it is sad when a spouse holds the other responsible for their happiness. No one should ever depend on the other spouse to make them happy. You have to be able to make yourself happy and not be so dependent on others

Hi Who,<P>Good topic, never really thought much about this until now. <P>I think the way you are asking is too "black and white", and she in turn is answering the same. I don't think it is so cut and dry, I think maybe you can meet your S's ENs to an extent, maybe not the whole way. Unless you are perfect and if that is what she is looking for then I don't believe a person could meet anothers ENs to the fullest extent. I think that is something to strive for and continue to work toward, but never do I feel that my ENs will be fullfilled to their fullest extent possible....That is what the concept of Heaven is all about.<P>I guess what I am saying is if your biggest EN is SF, and your W fullfills that need only once a month, she is fullfilling your need (in a black and white sense), but to be fullfilled to the fullest extent you may require once or twice daily to feel completely fullfilled. That is the most simple example of my thoughts, because other ENs seem a little more complicated to me. In my opinion it is a balance between enough, not enough, and to much, IMO.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spiro:<BR><STRONG><P>I think it is sad when a spouse holds the other responsible for their happiness. No one should ever depend on the other spouse to make them happy. You have to be able to make yourself happy and not be so dependent on others</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Spiro,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spiro:<BR><STRONG><P>I think it is sad when a spouse holds the other responsible for their happiness. No one should ever depend on the other spouse to make them happy. You have to be able to make yourself happy and not be so dependent on others</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Spiro,<P>Yes, the easy reply. I bet the C told you that one (nothing against C's, I love mine)FYI, I have always been pretty self reliant. One question - Do you ever need a hug? or sex? or just to talk? Do you go to the movies alone? Do you ever wish that you had somebody that would walk up behind you and just put there hand on your back to let you know your not alone. How can you get that alone? That to me is sad.<P>This is the difference I'm talking about. We as humans needs things from others. Why is it not possible to get these things from your spouse? <P>Yes, that's sounds a little controling but I'm talking about emotional needs that need to be meet by a significant other not general friendships. Each person should be allowed the space to grow and change but not at the expense of the other person.<P><BR>Thanks for the reply,<P><BR>who

I think the point is, it doesnt come naturally. You may have to ask and comprimise to meet someones needs, but with cooperation I dont see any need that cant be fulfilled.<BR>Even physical appearance which seems like it cant change much, but the person found you attractive in the first place, so unless truely shallow should be able to again.

SEM,<P>Thanks for the reply. No comments except we are on the same page. For me I'm just talking about "enough" and that actually is the best thing because when you get those moments when it's "perfect" it makes it all the more special.<P>BTW, I've followed your story and I really think both you and your W have good hearts. I hope things are going good for you two.<P>Thanks,<P>who

WTHIS,<P>Be a little careful when discussing this with your wife...it is trying to educate her on a topic she is not likely to want to hear about right now. Harleys do say we should hold off on the educating our spouses. Telling her how it should be is a LB.<P>Just my 2 cents.<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

Nina,<P>Thanks for the reminder. I'm not going to make a big issue out of it. That's why I let it drop until she brought it up in C today. It could be easy to run with but I'm just trying to see how a person that thinks like this could ever be in a good relationship. I'm not even sure that she is wrong because I have tried everything to try to start down the right path. Am I expecting to much?<P>who

[img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks Who, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Keep in mind who the EN thingy is a an artificial construct, a model, to try and bring some sense to something very complex. As a model it is useful, but it falls far short of being the standard used to define the success or failure of a marriage. It indeed is not possible for just anyone to meet anothers EN simply cause they decide too. The standard is not (and I am not sure harleys actually are saying love is purely mechanical either) a scorecard on how one meets anothers EN. First IMO you have to have motivation, and not just any motivation, but it has to spring from other than just concious choice. I have met approximately 10,000 women in my life (I have a job that takes me into folks homes). Being pretty curious I usually engage everyone I meet in at least some conversation, often quite personal (I am not a hows the weather type, more like are you happily married? What is your political affiliation? Do you believe in God, which one? sorts of questions). I was unaware of MB and their principles until recently, but looking back I know a few things. Very few of these women interested me beyone just routine theres a nice person kind of stuff. Quite a few caused me to react in a thank God I am not married to them sort of thing. Many were just plain uninteresting, even boring (no reflection on their worth as human beings intended here). Only a few did I find very interesting (but I never ever followed up on anything in case anyone is wondering). The point being, I would not have let most of these women (assuming both of us were single etc.) meet my EN, I think we are all very choosy that way. Perhaps cause we instinctively know that letting someone meet our EN causes a relationship and responsibilities, and we aren't going to let just anyone do that. Also I think we are all choosey about who's EN we seek to meet as well. <P>Ok, so much for motivation. And all that motivation is about how we fit someone (IMO), which I think is about 60% psychological, and 40% enviromental. If all you got is the 40% it is unlikely you will ever successfully meet your partners EN. This IMO is one of the factors in marital breakdowns, and why recovery does not happen all that often (despite harleys self-serving statistics, which are heavily weighted toward only counting circumstances where both parties are highly motivated). If people do not fit psychologically, one is fighting a huge uphill battle to even achieve a moderately successful marriage, it will never be great. If it were that simple, it would not make any difference who we were married to. Just go down to the JP, and sign up with whoever is available that day for marriage, and proceed to dutifully meet EN (shudder). We all instinctively know that just is not true, it makes a huge difference who you marry. So meeting EN starts first with how well you (and your spouse) understood yourselves and each other, if you fit well, the motivation will be high, and I think quite possible to meet all ones emotional needs. If you missed the mark, the marriage is gonna be work, lots of work, part of which is the eventual realization that your partner is never going to be your other 1/2, some needs never met, some aspects of who you are never fullfilled...but maybe can make a pleasant, safe, accomodation and that is better than being single. <P>I struggle with this too from the ws side. We do the harley counselling and all, read all the books, understand the principles, but I am having a difficult time with the application. I do not want my w to meet my EN, it feels like manipulation. And I know there are many things she can never meet, never has, and is incapable of no matter how hard she tries. It is not cause she is a bad person, it is cause our psychologies are so different. Likewise I stress her, my very existence stresses her, always has. I can only reduce her stress my burying parts of me, never to be seen again. This is supposed to fall under rules of protection, poja, and the payoff is I am supposed to get my laundary list of needs met. Likewise I am supposed to meet her needs, but to some extent I simply don't want too. But I am suppose to, what the heck does that mean, we are all just robots, just flip a switch, just do it? I have spent 28 years denying who I am, to try and make a marriage work. I KNOW who she is, I KNOW who I am, I know how good it can be and how good it can't be. Yes it can be better, certainly 2 people doing their best to be nice can't hurt, but their is a price to be paid, there always is, and that is the psychological price of denying yourself, of trying to fit someone else for the sake of marital harmony. The price is a sort of deep malaise, a sort of giving up on how life could be, and settling for what you have, for all sorts of good pragmatic reasons. The death of your spirit essentially, least that is what it feels like, the last giving up of any hope anyone will really ever know who you are (much less really choose you for who you are). Just kinda putting in your time, being reasonable happy and content, working diligently at your marriage, and waiting till your time to die. MB principles are very good at making you feel guilty, after all who but some lowlife would so callously ignore anothers EN, and how unreasonable to do that. But the fact is happens all the time, is the story of a large percentage of marriages. I think some is due to the large numbers of sociopathic personalites (controllers) in the population, but IMO many are also due to just not fitting someone very well.<P>Who, you say you love your wife so much. Why? How is this expressed other than she makes you feel good. How do you know you fit her? How well do you even understand who she really is? How do you know you can ever meet her EN, the way she wants them met? Not trying to make you feel bad, just asking in the spirit of the philosophic post you posited. IMO the EN thing is very dangerous, it offers the hope that a failing marriage can be miraculously fixed, just by following some rules, I completely disagree, first you must be motivated, and it cannot be just by choice, you have to be motivated by fit too. Let me offer just 1 small example, easily illustrated re fitting. <P>If two people with substantially different IQ's marry, it is extremely unlikely they will ever have the egalitarian marriage that meeting EN requires for being in-love. One will essentially be a caretaker to the other, cannot be any other way. That may very well work, but usually it does not, both end up feeling the chasm between them, and will not be happy. Likewise there are (IMO) a whole range of similar psychological characteristics, some of which are complementary, and some of which are antagonistic, it is what makes us human. The less complementary we are with a spouse, the less likelihood for long term success. Common good, and child-rearing can camoflague a lot, but ultimately in a society that celebrates growth and personal self-awareness, the marriage will be in crisis. At which point one will decide whether they will seek a better fit, or whether they will settle for what they have. Once that crisis has been settled (one way or another) then I think it is possible to fairly successfully meet each others emotional needs. And if one chooses not to play, it makes leaveing the contract more straigtforward. It is when one does not want to settle, but to seek that level of fitting we call in-love that much pain and angst occurs. Too bad we don't understand all this before we get married.

snl,<P>Hey bud! Every time I see you post I'm perplexed (big word for me-LOL). You can get me frustrated and have me agreeing with you at the same time. <BR>------<BR>"Who, you say you love your wife so much. Why? How is this expressed other than she makes you feel good. How do you know you fit her? How well do you even understand who she really is? How do you know you can ever meet her EN, the way she wants them met? "<P>I love my W because she is a good person, she is a wonderful mother, I have become close friends with her, she is beautiful, she has a fantastic personality, we have shared a pretty good life together even though times are tough right now, she is "comfortable", she loves me, she stood by me when I had troubled times, and we are co-dependent on each other (not a reason to love but I guess that's why we're stuck). I could keep going on but you get the idea.<P>I express my love to her by bringing flowers once a week, I hug her everytime I come in the door. I call her once a day. We play cards for an hour every night. I sense when she is having a hard day and try to help her out around the house. I apologize when I'm having a hard day and tell her that I'm having a hard time but I want to be here. I ASK HER WHAT I CAN DO TO MAKE THINGS BETTER FOR HER. I've written letters to her asking her what she needs. I stood by and let her s*%t on me - something that goes against the very core of who I am, just so she could see what she wanted.<P>As far as fitting her, I'm not sure I do. We've always been different but we've always had this "thing". Even when she was full bore into her affair she told me I was "home". I'm scared right now because this issue (meeting needs) goes right to the core of what I believe a marriage is about. I can accept it if that is what she truly believes. I don't believe we have much of a future though. This will be to hard to get past. That is why I brought it up.<P>As for understanding who she is. Just look at my screenname. I thought I knew. I guess not but I'm trying hard to figure it out again.<P>Meeting her needs. I can tell you that she has not complained about how I have been treating her. I have asked her to show me what she needs and how she likes it. I've told her not to expect perfection but give me credit for effort. I don't know what more I can do there. She will tell you that there has not been a lack in trying in that area. <P>Regardless, the one thing I agree with is that there is no right or wrong. Maybe that's what you say is "fit". <P>Thanks for the comments. That's what I enjoy. Something to make me think. I might not agree with everything but I do learn.<P><BR>who

Hi,<P>I think the Ws's have a hard time with that thought or question because it 'looks' like it means commitment or you are 'cornering' them into coming to a realistic conclusion. <P>Now if we were to ask a similar question about meeting the needs of a baby or our children, it may be easier to answer. Why? Because it is a lot easier to see. Children's needs are quite evident. <P>However, in the mind of a fogese, clear, logical and evident items tend to be discarded or disregarded. Stick your head in the sand and the problem will go away attitude is quite prevelant to those in the fog. Ah.... but when you stick your head in the sand, guess what is sticking up right out there? Hm...... Think no one will see you making a 'but' out of yourself? Right, go ahead and 'fool' the world and see who is laughing at who. So far that seems to be a familar pattern among many of the WS. Even the admitted ones know that they made some foolish decisions while way out there in left field. Some even like to pretend it never happened or play the selective memory game. <P>My point is that as long as the WS is out there giving you abstract comments about not being able to meet your needs or that you could never meet hers..... know that you are not going to meet here and she will not meet yours by her choice. Now that I what I did. <P>I agreed with my H that he was not meeting my needs and I was not meeting his. Yep agreed...... threw him for a loop and then told him that if that is the case, he needed to go and get his need met and so would I. Then I explained that he could meet my need by him paying back the money he owed me and getting the divorce and agreeing to stay away from son and I. <P>So now he was confused. H did not want to meet my need remember? Yet I told him that he would be meeting my need if he moved out, etc. Oh that one confused him......H had to ponder that one for a while. While he was pondering, he began to want his family back. NOt completely but a little at a time. Then I kept a foot in plan B but started to implement plan A (ab/ba thing). <P>Ah.... this helped the OW LB.... over and over again. Most recent was 2 days ago. I will share more about that later. <P>Safe to say, reverse fogese is confusing but if executed properly can make them think and that is a good thing.....at least in my case. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.

Hi whothehellisshe,<BR>I don't know how come your wife would disagree with your perfectly reasonable question other than she DOESN'T WANT to meet your needs? It sounds like a cop out to me.<P>Sure, we all have needs that extend beyond the model set forth in MB principles, but if you take the questionnaire and sit down honestly communicating what your needs are, what's the big deal?<P>It's not that difficult if you WANT to do it. I think WSs feel like hypocrits because they don't know what they want, let alone trying to explain what they want to their spouses. Sorry, but I just have to speak my mind and be blunt on this one...<P>A person has got to know themselves before they can fully communicate their needs to their spouses.<P>There are some things that God can't do for us, such as give us hugs and kisses and roses every week--that's what He gave us our honey's for... But then, if they're in love with someone else, it just ain't gonna work. Period...<P>If the WS won't tell you what their needs are or answer your questions dishonestly or consider it probing and annoying, it cannot work. If WS is still in love with OP, then I don't see how they could possibly be interested in meeting BSs needs? It doesn't work, plain and simple.<P>Plan A is tough, but it is possible. Until you get through a successful PlanA/PlanB, you won't know anything for sure about your WS, I think, because THEY don't even know...

Dear Who,<BR>Good question. I personally don't believe it is possible or even desirable to meet all your partners needs 100% of the time. Now that sounds pretty strange, but I think that if one person was all we needed for..say..conversation...well, life would be a pretty boring and restrictive place. And, if I was the one expected to do that, I'd run for cover..that's way too much responsibility for another's life.<BR>When you get to the more exclusive sort of needs like sexual fulfillment, it's a obviously a different story.<P>I think it's more important to be able to articulate your own needs and to be willing to give some effort to discovering and meeting your partner's needs..as best you can, but this is not, IMHO, the most important task when recovery commences.<P>There is a lot of talk here on the boards, especially in the earlier stages of recovery about "meeting all of her needs but she's not reciprocating" and "he's not allowing me to meet his" to say nothing of the ever popular "I'm tired of trying to meet all my WS needs especially after the way I was treated."<P>I think that early in the possible recovery/plan A stages, the bigger job is to not love bust..plain and simple. This one action meets the basic human need of being treated well. If both partners could just follow the non LB rule during this very fragile time, it will set the foundation for either a solid reconciliation or, on the other hand, a dissolution done with dignity and the least amount of mutual pain.<P>Discovering and attempting to meet each others emotional needs soon after discovery is almost inviting failure. Why, as a BS would you want to meet the needs of one that had hurt you so deeply, and why would you put yourself in the vunerable position of revealing these to someone you just don't trust? On the other hand, why would a WS, who probably left the union because passed needs weren't met, expect now to be any different? That's where the non LB behavior is so important..it builds a certain amount of trust between two people so that deeper issues, like needs, can be explored without ridicule or blame as the recovery progresses. And when the needs are finally apparent to both, yes, it may seem a little fake to send a silly card, engage in a conversation about professional wrestling, but at least an important message is sent...I care enough to try.<BR>So, my 2 cents.<BR>T

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by whothehellisshe:<BR><STRONG><P><BR>Spiro,<P>Yes, the easy reply. I bet the C told you that one (nothing against C's, I love mine)FYI, I have always been pretty self reliant. One question - Do you ever need a hug? or sex? or just to talk? Do you go to the movies alone? Do you ever wish that you had somebody that would walk up behind you and just put there hand on your back to let you know your not alone. How can you get that alone? That to me is sad.<P>This is the difference I'm talking about. We as humans needs things from others. Why is it not possible to get these things from your spouse? <P>Yes, that's sounds a little controling but I'm talking about emotional needs that need to be meet by a significant other not general friendships. Each person should be allowed the space to grow and change but not at the expense of the other person.<P><BR>Thanks for the reply,<P><BR>who</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey Who,<P> Nope, never been to see a C. But it is just common sense. There is nothing wrong with wanting a hug or a kiss, just don't become too dependent on your wife. Those things should come naturally. Just try to see her side and try not to make her feel guilty.<P>Spiro

I just want to point out that the Harley's don't believe that a spouse can or should meet ALL of their partner's needs. In fact, the Harleys suggest that you find out what your spouses TOP needs are, and become expert at those, rather than spreading effort around too thinly. Also, when trying to figure out needs, the Harleys ask: "What needs can you live without being met?" If you can do pretty well without physical affection, but conversation is a strong need, well then, your spouse needs to work on conversation, and you know what? You probably arent going to get the physical affection stuff met.<P>Also remember, there's MARITAL needs,and then there's needs. No one can be all things to any one. And I can understand your wife's defensiveness. You are holding her up to a standard that she must find very unrealistic, and overwhelming. Why try, if she is going to fail anyway?

Thanks for the replies everyone. Lots to think about. I feel a lot of you may think that this was a rant about not getting my needs met. This conversation took place in the context of asking my W what she needed and telling her that I wanted to provide a safe enviroment for her to be the person she was during the A. I didn't want her to think she had to loose the things about her that she liked during the A. Maybe I was a little to gung-ho about all this. I think maybe SNL hit the nail on the head when he talked about motivation. I think it can be done but it does take commitment and motivation. There also has to be a realistic expectation to what you or your spouse can do. We can't be perfect at everything but we should be able to do enough and do it in a caring way. Just doing it in a caring way should be enough.<P>I really got a lot out of the replies and I was going to address each individually but I think I would just end up repeating things that you guys pointed out. I did find a little gem in all of them. Thanks again.<P>I can see how my statement would be hard for my W to agree with. I can see that she might think I'm trying to be everything to her (I'm not but maybe more than I should) and I really think that she is afraid to tell me her needs because she knows I'm motivated and can do it. <P>Thanks again, you guys/gals are great!!<P><BR>who