I was sitting out side last night feeling depressed and got to thinking,Hmmm,I wonder how the om feels about taking a mother away from her childeren,a wife away from her husband,a daughter away from her fater,a sister away from her sister a chrisitan away from God etc.<P>First I though,hmm,I bet he feels pretty powerful and mighty but then I go to thinking,I could not live with my self if I did somthing like that so I got to wondering if he isent pretty miserable..<P>The little things she has told me flashed through my mind and I realized (and have before) that he does not care about her.The way I see it,if he did,she would not be there anyway,he would of encouraged her to stay home and work on her marriage.If he did,she would be here with her kids each and every day not just when its ok with him...which is usually once a week.<P>If he cared about her he wouldent tell her things like..You can leave anytime you want and I wont come after you.If he cared alot of things would be different.<P><BR>So all you op's out there,how did/do you feel?

I am not an OM, but I can tell you from what I have read here that the OP do not give a hoot about all that stuff...they are in it for themselves. It is the thrill of being able to take a person away from a marriage, how powerful as you thought...it is an ego thing pure and simple.<P>The statistics bear me out on this too, what is it 25% of these things develop into marriage, and hardly any go beyond six months. Why? The thrill of the chase is gone. The secrecy is usually gone by then too. No thrill.<P>They are all AH's IMHO...pout for themselves. Selfish people, WS and OP alike.

Ok, I am the om, and this deserves an answer owen, I can appreciate the distress bs experience over this. IMO it is the wrong question, it assumes your wife is property, your property. She is a mother with or without you as a H, and her relationship with her kids will be what she wants it to be (as will yours). As a sovereign individual your w is fully empowered to make any choice she sees fit in her life, including the most important choice of who to give herself too (I mean psychologically focus on). I am sure you are aware that the om cannot make your wife do anything she does not want to (as neither can you...right?), so he has not taken her away from anything. But anyways, I understand it still feels like that, so let me tell you how I feel as an om.<P>I did not set out to fall in love with ow, we innocently met, shared some common interesrs, and became friends. That eventually changed (for reasons much better understood now, but unaware of at the time), and we realized we loved each other. Yes, there were feelings of guilt about each others marriages, yes there were boundaries set to "control" the relationship appropriately. There was no effort at all to interfere manipulatively in each others marriages. There were just 2 very lonely people, who found in each other a friend, someone who saw them, and valued them for who they were, not what they could do for us. I know now marriage is not a piece of paper, and lots of people who are "married" really are not at all, their relationship does not fit the requirements of a successful intimate relationship, they are simply cohabitating. There was no need for either of us to take anything from the bs, we both willingly chose each other and left our spouses, that is how human attraction works. (this of course leads to huge problems when the real world catches up with this new relationship, and is why I am here now, but that is a whole nother issue).<P>Still I (and ow as well, but will just talk about me) was distressed over this. We even (early on) made suggestions on how to improve each others marriages, but that didn't work very well. Sort of like you trying to give your w advice on how to improve your relationship with om. Just cannot really emotionally give advice to someone you are in-love with on how to "love" someone else. So what to do. Part of me wanted to say let's just forget this, go back, be a "good" wife, like your are "supposed" to be. But another part says we have chose each other, I can't just send her away, what kind of man sends his woman away? Obviously this creates a psychologically impossible situation, something has to give. If you really do love someone (as opposed to using them) you want the best for them, but at the same time you want to protect and nurture them, that means they need to be by your side. So you do two things...(least I did). You make it clear they do not have to do anything to earn your love (ie leave their marriage, and obligations there), they are free to choose as they must, in other words. This acknowledges the reality of some level of obligation to a marriage even if you do not love your spouse. But on the other hand, I did encourage her to examine her life, her internal paradigms, and not just stay married cause of societal pressure. If she loved me, she should be willing to reexamine her life, and freely choose her marriage cause she wants that more than she wants us. Rather than just sacrifice herself cause would make others unhappy. I had to let her choose owen, if I chose for her (by either sending her home, or manipulating her to leave), I was no better than her H, who controls her. In fact, her history has been one of being controlled, I wouldn't do that to her, and she blossomed, was amazing to watch. So you could say I was sort of a friend, and a lover, but all I want for her is for her to be happy, wasn't about me. She pretty much wanted the same, and acted the same toward me as the ow. Eventually you come to realize this must end. It starts as a friendship, something happens, a fitting is recognized, and love blossomes, but it is an A, and sooner or later the price must be paid. The A must end, it has served it's purpose (and that is another philosophic issue as well for another day). The A has illuminated things needing to be dealt with, both internally as an individual and maritally as a couple. One should not avoid doing the work, it is necessary for bs and ws alike, and adds proper balance back. The marriage may or may not survice, and even though the crisis is in part cause a spouse found love with another, the marriage will still prosper or end on it's own merits.....if the A stops. So do I feel guilty about the distress to her family, and mine....... no, I don't. I am sorry people are unhappy, but such is life, you choose to enter a relationship and unhappiness is a risk. I even have to accept that I may be the source of someone's unhappiness, such is the inevitability of competeing needs of 4 billion individuals. <P>We are all sovereign individuals, and <BR>were created to fit in a way that means we seek to fit another, and love them. We can mess this up, and marry the wrong people, or having an A with the wrong people, but that is consequence of who we ae are, is pointless to feel guilty about it. A marriage license cannot overcome this humanity, people BELONG with who they fit, married or not. And all our angst and turmoil is cause we do such a a poor job of ensuring that happens. Why are we made this way? I don't know, but simple observation says we are. It is not simply by a mechanical process of meeting EN, it is much more than that, it is a psychological fitting, that is needed for a successful intimate bonding, vs a contractural accomodation. So because of that, I do not feel I took ow from her family, she still has her famililal relationships, and if she wants a different life partner, that is her choice to make, it is how humans work. My wife feels the same as you, and it makes me feel like property when she does. I am not NOT hers, she does NOT own me, I do NOT owe her anything at all. Intimacy is not that way, it has to be an incredibly selfish choice, made enthiusiastically by two people for each other. Anything else is coercion and akin to property. No human being can "decide" to give themself to another, no vow can do that, because it ariseds out of who we are, and who we fit. things we have absolutely no decision making power over. All we can "decide" to do, is give something a chance to agree to look at a marriage, to counsel, etc,.. and not just walk out on someone. Since an affair is one-sided, the only responsible thing one can do, is stop it, and go back to their spouse, tell em the truth, and work with them for a time, cause this is complex stuff, and we can decieve ourselves. I regret the distress that may occur in ow life, but my motivation is about her, not her H, not her social circle, not her famililial relationships, and if she is happier cause of my influence (whether I am in her life or not), why wouldn't everyone who claims to love her be happier for her too? And what would that say about me, if I had just denied her the love that enriched who she is?<P>This is how this om views this complicated human interaction. No one can decide for anyone else, we must all be free to act, otherwise we give up our individuality, our freewill. It is sometimes painful, but it is also the price we will pay for joy and happiness. You cannot have a happy successful marriage, unless you also have the possibility the marriage will fail.<P>Don't know if this helps you much owen, but op are not necessarily predatory creeps, they may very well be honorable, ethical, decent people who fell in love with your spouse, it is what messy humans do as they try to find where they fit in life. And life is not painfree. I will say though, that me and ow are older, her kids are in 20's, I have 1 left in high school. I think that plays a role, I would have been more reluctant to um....... participate in a relationship involving young children. But I never did, so I can't say for sure how that would go. But I will say I always looked very very hard at ow, I did not want her dependent on me, and I did not want to be manipulating her, had I ever sensed she was not freely choosing me, I would have stopped.<P>owen...I was sitting out side last night feeling depressed and got to thinking,Hmmm,I wonder how the om feels about taking a mother away from her childeren,a wife away from her husband,a daughter away from her fater,a sister away from her sister a chrisitan away from God etc.<P>snl..He is only "taking" away a w from a H, and maybe he is thinking he fits her better than you do, and can make her happier. The rest of the relationships still remain, and are only an issue to the extent they try to impose their will on what should be solely your wife's choice, they don't have to sleep (so to speak) with her life mate, that makes their opinions irrelevant. No one should be coerced to stay in an intimate relationship they do not want to be in...would you agree?<P>owen...First I though,hmm,I bet he feels pretty powerful and mighty but then I go to thinking,I could not live with my self if I did somthing like that so I got to wondering if he isent pretty miserable..<P>snl....Some remorse yes, but it goes away when one understands how human beings function. But yes sometimes I feel lower than dirt. But I never feel powerful, only a predator feels that way, mostly I feel lonely and scared. It saddens me so much ow (and perhaps me as well) may have to live (out of duty and constaints) the rest of our lives in unfullfilled marriages cause we cannot bear the discomfort of those around us. But then that says no one really cares much about us, wonder why we don't count, our happiness is not important.....oh yeah, I forgot we are pondscum and the feelings of ws are not important, but then again the feelings of property are never important...right? They just need to be firmly reindoctrinated....oops I mean fixed.<P>owen..The little things she has told me flashed through my mind and I realized (and have before) that he does not care about her.<P>snl....If he is a predator, then fight him like you would any predator owen, do not give up. Fact is very few affairs are honorable efforts at love, and one can usually tell the difference. Ethical op people will not manipulate or conspire agaist a bs, and they will let the ws go peacefully if they need that. Ya know, the general rule is people who are otherwise good folks, and really do love each other as friends do, and are very good for each other, must be kept totally apart cause they cannot control themselves, and put the bs at continuous risk confuses me. If someone is really really good for your spouse in ways you can never be, why wouldn't you want them in your spouses life? That sure sounds like possession to me, lock em up so all they have is you, and wear em down till they are happy with you......uggh. Rather if you ws says ok, I choose you and the kids, and I will honor my vows, now that I know how this all works. But I want this person in my life too (in appropriate amounts) why not? Shouldn't that be their choice? Or if you know you can never fill her like the om can, why don't you just gracefully let her go? Why try to possess her, and that is what all this feels like, all these "controls" and affair proofing seem about possessing someone who fits you so poorly they will wander off at a moments notice. If that is the case, why be married to them at all?<P>owen...The way I see it,if he did,she would not be there anyway,he would of encouraged her to stay home and work on her marriage.If he did,she would be here with her kids each and every day not just when its ok with him...which is usually once a week.<P>snl...Yes owen, I agree, after the friendship has reached the point it is love and one really cares. It is time to let them go, to return to their marriage and armed with whatever they now understand about life work out their destiny. This is painful for the new lovers, but it is the price they pay for that path to love. Is doubtful a healthy relationship is ever founded on the bodies of the bs. And trying to maintain 2 love relationships is impossible, and just destroys everyone.<P>owen...If he cared about her he wouldent tell her things like..You can leave anytime you want and I wont come after you.If he cared alot of things would be different.<P>snl...Does sound like he is using her. But then if he is, he is unlikely to have any of those emotions you wonder about. Ws's who are decent people, agonize over this stuff, believe me. In the larger sense this is not about marriage per se, it is about human relationships. Good luck. Plan a like crazy, be safe, but be honest too owen, and realize this is all up to your wife, not you or the om. She is an adult, and must be allowed to be accountable, don't make excuses for her.

Owen,<BR>I agree completely with Nina too sad_and_lonely's longwinded bs notwithstanding.<P>snl,<BR>Do you really believe all that junk you wrote? You went on for maybe a thousand words about friend, lover, watched her blossom, served it's purpose, etc. <B>Not one word</B> about responsibility, regret, parenthood, shame or humility. Funny though, in an indirect way you answered owen's question. In the distorted thinking of the cheater what's immoral somehow becomes moral.<BR>David

Owen, I remember another poster here, Seattle_John or John_Seattle, or something like that. He only posted a couple of times, I think. Just like SnL, he had an elaborately constructed justification for his actions as a WS. Most of his revolved around the idea that both the W and his OW benefitted so much from having him in their lives that he was really doing both of them a favor by continuing the marriage and the adultery. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Just the basic crap, only dolled up with sophisticated words.<P>Like you, I can only surmise, (which isn't what you asked for...sorry) but I think people bent on doing something wrong will either ignore the implications of what they are doing, or make up "reasons" which make them seem justified or even noble. Sophistry.<P>Rose Red

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><STRONG> Just like SnL, he had an elaborately constructed justification for his actions as a WS...I think people bent on doing something wrong will either ignore the implications of what they are doing, or make up "reasons" which make them seem justified or even noble. Sophistry.<BR></STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Summed up perfectly in S_N_L's <B> verbiage </B> of "what? Like a thousand words or something words?" <P>ie: SELFISH<P>THERE's your answer, Owen. The OP are SELFISH and the WS's are acting that way, too.<P><Sigh> yes, S_N_L, we <B> ALL </B> (BS and WS and OP) alike want to be loved. We all as human beings <B> need </B> to be loved. God made us that way. However, when we <B> COMMIT </B> our love to <B> ONE </B> human being for ever through marriage vows (there's that dirty word - vow -plus commitment & duty <again> ), it prohibits us from being "allowed" from looking for love anywhere else. <P>Is right? Is fair? Maybe not, especially not if we find down the line somewhere that we don't "fit" them (STILL don't totally understand what the hell that means), but it means <B> FIND A WAY TO "FIT" THE ONE YOU COMMITTED YOUR LIFE TO </B><P> It's what God expects. Period.<P>The operative phrase here is FIND A WAY. God didn't make us to be ecstatic for a time (like honeymoon period) and then subsist for a lifetime. God wants us to <B>be</B> loved and <B>give</B> love unconditionally and fully. WE mess that up by being selfish (not just during A's) and Taking (have you read "Give and Take?") and not Giving what our spouses need. That's when the "do not fit" crapola sets in. Justification for A? Only in the mind of the selfish.<P>S_N_L, I have asked and you have told MANY, MANY times about your problem M. I understand. I truly do. I've told you before how sorry I am for your pain. And I really am. Maybe yours truly <B> IS </B> a case where you two don't "fit." But I don't believe it is because you shouldn't have married b/c of "fit." I think you ignored other "warning signs." I believe your W has deep-seated emotional problems that come from FOO and have never been resolved. I know you said you tried the counselor route, etc. I'm sorry that didn't work. BUT yours is a unique situation (I believe), and as such, I don't think your advice to most other BS's to just <I>let them go if they don't "fit" you </I> is healthy or positive. I wish you would stop advising others to do as you feel you want to. It doesn't play for most of us.<P>God Bless,<BR>Lupo

owen,<BR>regardless of what popular opinion is, all WS and OM are not what you think. We are not all as wicked and totally selfish as you want to believe. I am only speaking for myself and for the OM I was involved with.<BR>And he did say all the things you are asking about. He told me to go home and work on my marriage. He told me that only when I was sure that my marriag would not work could things work out with us. OH yes, I know that the relationship was doomed to start with since it started out all wrong. And it was wrong, it is always wrong to go outside your marriage vows, but sometimes when things in the marriage go wrong, you don't think what is right and wrong. Things happen and for me I just let them happen until I was deeply involved with someone else. But my relationship with God was too important to me to let fall by the wayside.<BR>God has always been the center of my being. Without Him, I was not the woman I had been or wanted to be which is partly what led to me allowing the A to happen. <BR>Anyways, this is just my two cents worth.<BR>debbie

snl,<P>OK, that one was just to much. You want to know why people accuse you of talking in circles. It's because of comments like these:<P>"snl..He is only "taking" away a w from a H, and maybe he is thinking he fits her better than you do, and can make her happier. The rest of the relationships still remain"<P>This is crap. It is nothing but selfishness. You do not have the W's interest at heart and are trying to make her happier. If you really thought that you fit and you two would be happier together then you would BOTH get your Bu**sh@# hidden agenda's out in the open and not sneak around. You wouldn't be such a coward. But then it's not nice and safe. Once you bring it out into the open the security is gone. At least play on the same field as the BS. Could the W know it goes against her values to be in two relationships at once? You really are in la-la land if you think she can keep her relationship with her H as is and just "add" what she's missing to her life.<P>"So because of that, I do not feel I took ow from her family, she still has her famililal relationships"<P>BS again, just because her marriage was in trouble does not give her the right to be sneaky. She seriously damaged her relationships (and you helped her) when she was dishonest with her actions. As far as her being with a controling person isn't that her choice to stay there? Or is it a crappy excuse for her to find a little piece of heaven and blame it on her H? Kinda neat how you can play that to your advantage. Maybe her husband is controling and does love her. Maybe that's how he shows it. Doesn't make him a monster. He is still getting hurt and you and your mistress are the ones responsible. Oh, but you don't feel guilty about it or do you, I can't remember.<P>Yes you do:<BR>"Yes, there were feelings of guilt about each others marriages"<P>Wait no you don't:<BR>"So do I feel guilty about the distress to her family, and mine....... no, I don't."<P>Something funny is going on if you feel guilty when you are with her talking about each other's family's but when you're with your W you don't feel any guilt. Hmmm... awfull convenient the way your guilt works. Oh, here's another thought: Maybe she does feel guilt unlike you and you're not such a great fit after all. If she does feel guilt then are you really such a great friend and lover by helping to keep those guilty feelings going? I know what I'm talking about SNL. My W's OM is built like you. He doesn't feel guilt. Everytime the tough times come between them he says "This is hurting you to bad, go be with your family" (but you can bet he'll keep in contact). He never has seen my W lay around bawling for hours on end. He's never seen her have to run to the bathroom and throw-up because I ask a question about them. This is guilt. He thinks I'm a pretty controlling person. He doesn't know that one of the only reason's I've hung in is because I want to see my W get healthy again. I will survive if my M doesn't and I will thrive. Fact is, my M probably will not make it but not because of the A. You guys that think you are giving a married person happiness are 100% wrong. Trueheart is the only WS that I have heard put it like it should be. He said something to the effect "If OP "fit" you so well and it was so perfect there would be no doubt where you should be".<P>I realize you're searching for answers within yourself but until you get rid of the way you justify and see things you aren't going to get far. SNL sometimes you see things so clearly yet you are so blinded by a relationship that was "canned". Get it out in the real world and examine it and then you will learn some real answers. I know we BS's need to do this with our own relationships. It took me a long time to figure that out. It's pretty scary to look at the real problems. The A is a pretty convienent tool for us to use to stay away from the problems that need to be adressed. I do agree a lot with what you say about fit although your experience with "fit" has been masked by secrecy. IT'S NOT REAL UNTIL YOU DEAL WITH IT OPENLY.<P><BR>Good luck,<P>who

Hi Owen, <P>That's my cousin's name and he is such a nice guy......<P>Anyway, I guess the question is like, what piece does the OP play in the problems, divorce, etc of the M? <P>Good question. Depending on where each person's situation stands, you will get varied viewpoints as you can see by those who have previously responded here. <P>While the OP would like to 'think' they did not cause any problems, it is true that many an OP have the 'ostrich' syndrome. The OW who helped ruin my life certainly acted that way. Let's see, OW:<BR>1. told H his w and son did not need him, <BR>2. made plans to have H move in with OW, set rules for H no contact with W, how and when to have visitation with son (only pick up son in a neutral location not at son's home not at any friend or relative's home and only on the weekends), how much H should pay OW per month, etc. There were about 15 or 16 items of demands from OW. <BR>3. told H that H had OW, what else does he need.<BR>4. told H that an A was like a marriage and in the same e-mail, better than a marriage. <BR>5. OW sent e-mail to BS stating that marriage problems were not OWs concern. OW claimed that she did not create any problems. Even though OW was in the process of claiming to be prego. This she did 3 times with no baby or proof of preg or loss. (that is how she was named Rabbit)<BR>6. OW gave H info on how to do a 'quickie CA divorce'. Gave him all the website info and offered to help.<BR>7. OW helped H find places to stay until she was ready to move him into her home. <BR>8. OW planned for H to move out in April. Stay with W and son until July divorce and then they would get married in August 2001. In this plan, OW was to come out as the heroine because she 'allowed' the BS a chance to get back with H, knowing that OW and H had agreed to a August reunion then marriage. <P>Based on the info above and even if only 1/2 were true, what do you think about this OP? There are many others like her. Vary in degree of stupidity and claims of innocence. But are they innocent. <P>Ask the BS. Ask the children. Ask the family, friends, workmates and neighbors. Ask God. Hm..... can all these people be wrong and the OP be guilt free? Hm...... You decide for yourself. For me, I think not. I know not....<P>OPs by choice (once they know the WS is married) are as guilty as sin for allowing the relationship to continue or encourage it in any way. <P>The OW in our case, constantly refers to her 'attempts' to send the WS back to his family. Yes, that is what she said, but her 'body language' spoke otherwise. Something like "go back to your family" (as she is undressing and shaking her head saying no???)..... LOL!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Oh yes, that is how she got her full name Mrs. Psyco Babble Rabbit. You see, this OW was married also. But she had excuses for that marriage vow being broken. <P>Innocent or Guilty? You decide. <P>L. <P>L.

Owen,<P> I feel like there are too many bitter BS replying to your question. Let's face it. Some times people meet and fall in love. I don't think it has to do anything with ego. I didn't look at this person that I am with and think, "I am going to fall in love with this person so I can feed my ego and hurt their spouse and kids". I also feel very strongly that if the other person really had any feelings for the spouse, then the other person certainly wouldn't want to be with me... I see so many BS always wanting to blame the other person instead of the WS. Again I feel like if a spouse really loves his or her spouse they wouldn't want anyone else. SSOOoo. It's as if the marriage is already dead before the OP comes along.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spiro:<BR><STRONG><BR> ....I also feel very strongly that if the other person really had any feelings for the spouse, then the other person certainly wouldn't want to be with me... .</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Spiro,<BR>That's one of the oldest lines in the book. "Our marriage is dead anyway. I love you, not my wife. She doesn't understand me." Yeah right, till the W finds out then he drops you like a used tissue.<P>I notice Spiro that you've been a member here only for a few days. I also read in one of your posts that you're "trying" to stay away from the OP. I think if you decide you want to save your M, and end all contact with the OP for a while you'll begin to look at things a little differently. <P>Are you one of those people who is hiding the A from your S? If so that must be a heck of a burden. I hope if you need help with saving your marriage you'll share a little about your problem. There are very many wonderful and forgiving people here. Sure, we BS go through terrible pain - our marriages were very far from "dead" when this tragedy hit. <P>The critisism of snl that you see is partly because of recent events on the boards I suspect. Over in "recovery" we've seen that the gentle approach does not work with people still in the "fog"-meaning people still still lying to themselves in an attempt to justify their A. It colors all their perceptions. <P>So I hope you don't get too put off by some blunt talk, I really think it's necessary to help preserve the "atmosphere" of marriagebuilding - what the site is all about. <P>As far as your comments about "bitter BS's" I think we all get angry at the OP at times. But I blame my W way more than the OM. I think most BS's would agree - especially us men. Our S are the ones who betrayed us - they could have said no.<P>If you haven't gotten the welcome yet Spiro, it's here: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html</A> <P>Hope you can save your Marriage Spiro if that's what you're here for.<BR>David

spiro don't be put off, this place is a bit different than real life (but it is real). People are kinda expected to be a little more blunt, and even vent some, without being criticised, we just draw the line at personally trashing people hopefully. But it is a bs oriented board, so that bias is to be expected. IMO bs have a fog of their own, and they rarely take the end of their marriage lying down....so that makes em seem a little aggressive at times, but that is ok, they are fighting for what they believe, just like the ws is fighting for what they believe. Our society has a bias toward marriage and a dim view of people not staying in it when they are unhappy. That is probably a good thing, but it means being a ws is gonna get you a lot of grief. No matter how great a person you are, or how dead your marriage is or is not. Hindsight is always 20/20 and the bs is a leeeeetle bit too quick to tell the ws how they "should" have handled the marital disharmony.....fact is (and statisitics don't lie) most seriously troubled marriages experience an affair, it is simply how our species does things, and it is pointless IMO to complain about how immoral and awful a ws is, makes no difference, and solves nothing. I am focused on other things, like what is love, how do I really feel about my wife, why should I stay married, stuff that makes a difference. What bs (in general) prefer, is the ws suffer a paroxysm of guilt, throw themsleves at the bs feet, begging forgiveness, and commit full force to committment with their wonderful spouse and "choose" to never be unhappy again, living a passionate life (by following a rulebook called MB principles), and age quitely away side by side into the sunset. The bs of course acknowledges they have a few things to change, and graciously promises to do so, but cannot understand how the ws can't possibly love them, must be cause they are mentally defective (called fog) and just need to be "fixed". No where will you find any bs (or group of bs) who cares one whit about whether the ws is happy or not, or wants to be married or not, the only good ws is a repentant ws, the rest are pondscum, and the bs suffering saints.<P>Ok, that was hyperbole to make a point, that being anyone who suggests that A are part of human nature, not evil in and of themselves, and do reveal things (including that maybe the marriage should end) is taking a very minority position, and can expect a lot of flack. I knew when I replied to owen, I would be taken to task for being a heartless selfish sob, maybe I am, who knows, but I think the truth is I am a lot more pragmatic, and interested in real psychological truths than I am selfish, or heartless. But stick around, tell your story, whatever it is, everyone needs a reality check, and that you will recieve here, essentially every possible viewpoint is represented.<P>I will reply to some others of you later. Keep in mind owen asked specifically for an om feelings, it really isn't fair to come down to hard on me for simply providing that. This wasn't one of my questioning posts, it was just an honest response of my feelings as the om. Feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are....remember? (feelings 101). But of course, I am not surprised. I wrote so much so I could make clear what I was trying to express, by the looks of some of the comments, I was sorely misunderstood on a few points.

OK--I've never been the "cheater", but, somehow it seems if you ask the OM how they are feeling, and then an OM responds, why is it that the OM gets flamed? He was giving you his honest response, and it seems that if you didn't want his honest response, you wouldn't ask the question, right?<P>If you only hear what 'you' want to hear, then perhaps it would be better if a topic were created for only 'you' to post in. <P>I'm not trying to be rude, but I 'am' trying to be sensible. Let others have their box to talk from.<P>Thanks.

sad_n_lonely,<BR>this is public forum and free speech are encourage here. Your post help me gave some insight, I am a BS. We could agree and disagree but as long as we do not try to change other people opinions it stays as healty discussion. I like Orchid' posts, she is facing with very skillful OP that has plan of attack to take her marriage. Most of A is not like that.<P>Hadi

btw... david you made an accusation about morality (and no offense taken). I will respond, but I would appreciate you defining morality in absolute terms. I do not think I am immoral at all, nor have I acted with anything but ethical behaviour. I have no obligation to unilaterally preserve anyones marriage, and in fact we (the general we) interfere in marriages all the time, in a myriad of ways. My intentions to ow were honorable, I was willing to marry her, I was not using or playing games with her. As for my w, I can leave anytime I choose, all that is needed is to no longer choose her as my wife. Divorce decrees are secular economic arguments, have nothing to do with ones state of mind. As soon as I realized my psychological alignment had changed, I ageed to my wifes standing offer to divorce, unfortuneatley she declined, and so here I am, trying to do the "right" thing. But I will not lie about my feelings, or pretend to phoney morality. Anyone who depends on trying to coerce another human being to stay with them, or act in certain ways and not others, essentially considers their spouse property. And that is why you have so many affairs, human beings simply do not function that way. So there you are, am I immoral cause I broke a "rule", and who is the arbiter of these rules? Or am I immoral cause my intentions to ow were to use her and not to love her? I have no objection to discussing my "immorality" but it is gonna take more than just an accusation to make it stick, you have to prove it. The only thing I really consider immoral is using someone for personal gain, and near as I can tell, that was not my intent. If I could do it over again, I would have resolved my marital circumstances first, but I am not perfect, if that is the standard, who is?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Davidb:<BR><STRONG><P>Spiro,<BR>That's one of the oldest lines in the book. "Our marriage is dead anyway. I love you, not my wife. She doesn't understand me." Yeah right, till the W finds out then he drops you like a used tissue.<P>I notice Spiro that you've been a member here only for a few days. I also read in one of your posts that you're "trying" to stay away from the OP. I think if you decide you want to save your M, and end all contact with the OP for a while you'll begin to look at things a little differently. <P>Are you one of those people who is hiding the A from your S? If so that must be a heck of a burden. I hope if you need help with saving your marriage you'll share a little about your problem. There are very many wonderful and forgiving people here. Sure, we BS go through terrible pain - our marriages were very far from "dead" when this tragedy hit. <P>The critisism of snl that you see is partly because of recent events on the boards I suspect. Over in "recovery" we've seen that the gentle approach does not work with people still in the "fog"-meaning people still still lying to themselves in an attempt to justify their A. It colors all their perceptions. <P>So I hope you don't get too put off by some blunt talk, I really think it's necessary to help preserve the "atmosphere" of marriagebuilding - what the site is all about. <P>As far as your comments about "bitter BS's" I think we all get angry at the OP at times. But I blame my W way more than the OM. I think most BS's would agree - especially us men. Our S are the ones who betrayed us - they could have said no.<P>If you haven't gotten the welcome yet Spiro, it's here: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html</A> <P>Hope you can save your Marriage Spiro if that's what you're here for.<BR>David</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>David,<BR> Thank you for your reply. I appreciate you being blunt. I really want to know about these things. If I cared anything at all about my marriage, I wouldn't be in this position. That is my point! If I cared about my spouse I wouldn't be involved with the OP. I guess, I posted in the first place because I got tired of people blaming the OP so much more than their spouse. And as far as him dropping me like a used tissue..... I don't think so. We have been together for over a year. It's not like a one night stand. I guess, what I am trying to say is if I loved my spouse, I wouldn't have a desire for the other man and vice versa

Well, my case is a bit different, but....I am the BS, but the OW has been a close friend of mine for 20 years, was taken in by family when her mother walked out and her father had many deployments as a single father. My mother was there for her as a grandma to her kids, I was her maid of honor, and she mine. We helped her through her divorce (although now I wish we had let her knw what we really thought of her cheating on her husband and not giving them a chance to work things out before leaving). The OW in my situation blatantly disregarded my whole family and her own to do what she wanted. And although she plays lip service to feeling sorry, she isn't. She says she has always tried to show my H how to work on our M, but in the IM transcript I saw (he saved it for me when I asked) shesuggested to him that maybe he "settled" for me and that maybe we weren't supposed to be together if he felt so close and comfortable with her. When he told her (and me) that he felt so torn and in love with two people at the same time, did she say "well if you love your wife, you need to be with her, you are married and that is an important commitment and impacts your integrity"?..no, I believe she said (in an email to me) "if I can make him happier by letting him do what he wants and not requiring any commitment out of him, he deserves to do whatever he wants." (True to an extent, BUT marriage requires compromises).<P>So to answer your question, unless she is putting on a front for me and everyone else, and unless her typed words were completely miscontrued, no, she feels no gult. In fact in the way she writes (wrote, she doesn't anymore) in emails to me, I would say she is pretty happy with herself and feels like she has finally gotten even with me for a long held grudge (she felt my life was too good and the world had dealt her crap her whole life...has told me this before).<P>Anyway, my bitter BS opinion [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] But a different situation from most because I have known the BS as a close, close friend, and even called her a sister, since we were 5.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR>[QB]<P>Ok, that was hyperbole to make a point, that being anyone who suggests that A are part of human nature, not evil in and of themselves, and do reveal things (including that maybe the marriage should end) is taking a very minority position, and can expect a lot of flack.QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh come on snl. Everyone knows there are many bad marriages and that an affair often ends them. We're talking about people who come here to MB presumably to save their M.<BR>David

who, that wasn't meant to be an explanation...""""""""""snl..He is only "taking" away a w from a H, and maybe he is thinking he fits her better than you do, and can make her happier. The rest of the relationships still remain""""""""<P>it was just alternative thinking. BS regularly (as do most human beings) state the range of choices in ways that support our desired outcome. I was just suggesting that other possibilities are well......... possible.<P>who....This is crap. It is nothing but selfishness. You do not have the W's interest at heart and are trying to make her happier. <P><BR>snl...Are you saying every marriage must be preserved, and no om has ever made a better life for ow?<P>who...If you really thought that you fit and you two would be happier together then you would BOTH get your Bu**sh@# hidden agenda's out in the open and not sneak around. You wouldn't be such a coward. But then it's not nice and safe. Once you bring it out into the open the security is gone. At least play on the same field as the BS. <P>snl...I agree, and I am. I am fully participating in efforts at reconcilliation, and the ow and I stopped the affair. <P>who...Could the W know it goes against her values to be in two relationships at once? You really are in la-la land if you think she can keep her relationship with her H as is and just "add" what she's missing to her life.<P>snl...Ya lost me here. perhaps you misuderstood my somewhat cryptic comments regarding friendship. I was referring to the desire by the bs for their ws to never ever so much as say hello to someone who may indeed be a very good friend to them. The assumption seems to be that the ws is incapable of decideing for themself what their boundaries are and sticking to them. The fact is if it is too painful for the 2 lovers to be friends, they will stop it themselves, IMO it is incredibly disrespectful to dictate to another human being who they can and cannot interact with. IMO the goal seems to be to cut off the ws from anyone that may distract their focus from their bs. This means that instead of "choosing" their bs, they are given no choice but their bs. This feels like mind control to me. If I were a bs I would not lift a finger to stop an A. I would make sure I was fully informed, and I would let my spouse go, I don't want em if they cannot choose me fully on their own and do all the work themself to make it happen. Why would anyone want to be married to someone they are afraid does not love them enough not to stray, I really don't get it. But what I think does happen, is a bs who cannot meet some needs the way another might, feels incredibly jealous and threatened, and so will sacrifice their ws having their needs met (in an apprpriate way, such as conversation, maybe recreation, appropriate affection, not SF), in order to protect what they (the bs) wants. This is the old can a spouse have an opposite gender best friend question. The usual answer is no, cause it leads sex and and marital disharmony. But if ws has elected to stay (for religious reasons, or vows, or whatever), and has no intention of spending excessive time, or having sex with the op, why can't they be friends? The answer is of course jealousy, the bs will feel hurt. That is just another means of control, and rules of protection can be abused. The real question is if someone else is a better friend, or can meet needs better, why not let ones spouse go, if you really love them and want them to be happy. It is a bitter pill to swallow that someone exists who can make your spouse happier than you. It is bad enough in the abstract (knowing it is probable), but it is terrible when you actually know who they are. I find it so curious that almost universally every bs just assumes they can make their spouse happier than anyone else, but work so hard at not letting their ws decide for themself. It is silly, and most likely wrong, that the first person you marry (given how stupid we are about marital assessments) is the one who can make you happiest, or you them. That is why we work so hard at telling people it is not about fitting, it is about committment, and vows, and children....we really don't care if our spouse is happy at all for the most part, we just want em to take care of our EN, and we do not want to have to start all over with someone else.<P>"So because of that, I do not feel I took ow from her family, she still has her famililal relationships"<P>who...BS again, just because her marriage was in trouble does not give her the right to be sneaky. She seriously damaged her relationships (and you helped her) when she was dishonest with her actions. <P>snl...Why not? And what makes you think her 28 years of trying were not enough? Sorry who, this is just more of the keep trying till you drop dead stuff. When is enough enough? I didn't damage anything (nor she mine), our marriages died a long time ago, if they ever were at all. Ya know, people really do marry the wrong people who, it is not a myth or anything. It is not awful to realize you really do not want to live any more of your life with someone. But neither of us is filing for divorce, and if we do, it won't be to run to each other. We have parted, and our marriages survive or not on their own merits. But what we have experienced is how it is to have a friend. There was no secret, both our spouses knew about each of us, we even tried to introduce them and involve them, but as usual they really had no interest in us or what we were doing. They only got interested when we started withdrawing from them, stopped meeting their needs (we are both good at meeting others needs, at the expense of ours). And nature took its course, we realized we had a lot more in common with each other than our spouses, and it got very confusing after that. That cannot be changed, we may do duty and vows and stay in our marriages, but if I do, it is gonna be because it works as good with my w as it did with ow, otherwise why be married at all? Rather be single. As for ow, don't know, she is stronger now too, maybe she can make it work, or maybe she will be unwilling to live without a true intimate bond too, but at least now she (as I) have a choice, we know what it feels like to fit someone.<P>who...As far as her being with a controling person isn't that her choice to stay there? <BR>Or is it a crappy excuse for her to find a little piece of heaven and blame it on her H? <P>snl...You don't think controllers exist? You disbelieve in emotional abuse? You don't think having your self-esteem assaulted for years might not make you dependent and fearful? If not, may I suggest you read some books on battered wife syndrome. (and it does not have to be women, can be men too, I really had come to believe, and it astounded me when the counsellor made me face it, that I was unlovable, and was lucky to have someone who would tolerate me, I know that is not true now).<P>who....kind of neat how you can play that to your advantage. Maybe her husband is controling and does love her. Maybe that's how he shows it. Doesn't make him a monster.<P>snl...didn't say he was a monster, but if he had been bonded to his wife, she would not have wandered. Makes no difference how he (or any of us) shows love, if your spouse needs something else, you don't fit. There is no reward for good intentions, and this is not a game, it is emotional life or death. My wife does not fit (love) me the way I need either, she can't help it, likewise me toward her, I know she tries "in her own way" but it makes no difference, trying does not count, it either works or it does not. Why in the world should anyone spend a lifetime trying to fit someone? If it does not work, end the misery for everyone. <P>BTW I played nothing to anyones advantage, I wanted no part of this woman unless she freely chose me, and I went to painstaking lengths to conceal nothing about who I am, and how I am put together. The only thing I have ever done re her marriage, is tell her to hold her H accountable, that his behaviour was not ok, and to stop making excuses (that usually showcased her low self-esteem) for him. The same thing all her friends tell her actually. But that is the way controllers work, I know, I am married to one. They keep you emotionally off balance, the criticism never ends, you spend your life trying not to upset them, it makes you nuts, and is an awful way to live. To the world, it appears all is ok, cause you wear your happy face, and you make a life within the parameters they allow you, in short you are property, put there to meet their needs.<P>who...He is still getting hurt and you and your mistress are the ones responsible. Oh, but you don't feel guilty about it or do you, I can't remember.<P>snl..No I will not feel guilty. He is reaping what he sowed, as bs often do (not always, some are real victims ). The natural consequence of neglecting your spouse (regardless of the specifics) is that one way or another they will leave. But then I would feel the same if I were a bs. It makes no difference whether my feelings would be hurt, an A is incontrovertible evidencd the marriage has ended. Maybe a new one can be crafted, maybe not, but in the world I live in, I want the truth, and if my marriage were not sound, I would want it to end, regardless of any pain to me. That has actually been the source of my loneliness, knowing my marriage was never more than a picture, that is all duty and vows are without passion, and passion is not a decision. That does not mean I don't feel sad for him, or my wife, but ya know, neither of them have been happy for a very long time either.<P>who...Something funny is going on if you feel guilty when you are with her talking about each other's family's but when you're with your W you don't feel any guilt. Hmmm... awfull convenient the way your guilt works. Oh, here's another thought: Maybe she does feel guilt unlike you and you're not such a great fit after all. If she does feel guilt then are you really such a great friend and lover by helping to keep those guilty feelings going? I know what I'm talking about SNL. <P><BR>snl...I probably never should have brought up guilt, it is a volatile subject, and I think means different things to different people. In my world, guilt is pretty much a useless emotion, at best only an attention getter. You should NEVER make decisions based on guilt. Guilt is how you maintain your internal paradigms, it is useless if you examine those paradigms and decide they need to be changed. <P>who...My W's OM is built like you. He doesn't feel guilt. Everytime the tough times come between them he says "This is hurting you to bad, go be with your family" (but you can bet he'll keep in contact). He never has seen my W lay around bawling for hours on end. He's never seen her have to run to the bathroom and throw-up because I ask a question about them. This is guilt. <P>snl...Ok, I shouldn't do this, but I will discuss this. I don't know why your w is bawling, and if it is from knowing she wants to remain with you, but cannot break from om, then shame on om. This is not so easy to figure out necessarily, but in time it should be clear, and if he really loved her, he would let her go. If on the other hand, she is bawling cause her heart says they do fit, and she cannot understand why he is not either making it clear he is staying in the marriage (and therefore not contacting her), or he is making a place for her (by restructuring his life to include her as his wife), then he is (as you suspect) unworthy, either a predator, or just not really in-love and doesn't know how to stop himself. This is hard stuff who, from all sides, but it is fascinating, just wish I didn't have to be a participant (so to speak). Ultimately it is up to your wife (as it always is, each of us is responsible for themselves). She needs to step to the plate, and either choose you, divorce you and be single, or cleave to the om (and he to her). Since it would appear om is not worthy based on your representations, she needs to come to grips with having given her heart away (or at least tried, you really cannot give it away unless one comes back, IMO that is how it works). Yes a traumatic circumstance in her life, but no real harm done, and no guilt needed, IF she learns and grows from this. She did not set out to hurt you, or anyone, that is why guilt is of no value, she just did what humans do, and it is much more important to unravel all of this (as you see me do, ad nauseum) then it is to lay about bawling and feeling sorry for oneself. Someday I may tell you how I reacted when I found myself in your wifes shoes, and yes I just wanted to curl up and die too, but you get past it. Life is for the living, IMO just tell her the past is past, let her talk about the om, be a friend, plan a her and let the chips fall where they will. If she truly has serious dependentcy issues, and whether you or om, or some other om, she needs to work them out first. And maybe that should be in a seperation, or even a divorce. She needs to understand how to survive, and that she can survive, before she can really choose anyone. If you become her best friend through all this, and not her crutch, you win it all in the end...but then you have to decide too what who wants, maybe you like dependent women, who knows. I only know this who, life is much more complicated than I ever thought possible, but it is worth trying to get it right, even if it takes you to strange scarey places.<P>who...He thinks I'm a pretty controlling person. He doesn't know that one of the only reason's I've hung in is because I want to see my W get healthy again. <P>snl...Let's hope that is true. You don't come across as very controlling, and I have very good radar.<P>who....I will survive if my M doesn't and I will thrive. Fact is, my M probably will not make it but not because of the A. You guys that think you are giving a married person happiness are 100% wrong. <P>snl...I didn't mean happiness that way. We are all responsible for our own happiness. But that part of it which comes from bonding with another, is dependent on who that person is IMO.<P>who...Trueheart is the only WS that I have heard put it like it should be. He said something to the effect "If OP "fit" you so well and it was so perfect there would be no doubt where you should be".<P>snl...I agree with trueheart.<P>who...I realize you're searching for answers within yourself but until you get rid of the way you justify and see things you aren't going to get far. SNL sometimes you see things so clearly yet you are so blinded by a relationship that was "canned". <P><BR>snl...This is not an easy search to make who, I recognize the pitfalls, I know what is at stake, and I am cautious, but I do take action, I just don't talk. I am feeling my way, and so far, it feels ok. The path is narrow, and there are many false ones, but it is doable methinks. Nor do I "justify" anything, I don't need too. I don't function that way. I do a lot of investigation, and that is what you see here. I don't seek, nor do I need anyones approval, I do exactly what I want to do (meaning I always take full responsibility for my choices, good or bad). Am I selfish? You bet. The only difference between me and those who accuse me of selfishness is I admit it.<P>who...Get it out in the real world and examine it and then you will learn some real answers. I know we BS's need to do this with our own relationships. It took me a long time to figure that out. <P>snl...Funny you should say that. Wish I had a dollar for everytime I have been uyelled at for pointing out how crummy most people have it in this world (compared to americans). I live in reality who, my business is rooted in reality as well, I am pragmatic from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet, frankly I am more rooted in reality than just about anyone I know. You read my posts, you don't think they are real? You really think marriage is just do it, and live happily ever after, no need to understand yourself, any prosepctive mate (including the one you are married too), no need to dig deeper than a laundary list of EN's? A lifetime is a long time who, and way to long to spend in a dutiful, but unfullfilled marriage. It is worth understanding, and understanding in depth why we do what we do, and change our internal paradigms if needed.<P>who...It's pretty scary to look at the real problems. <P>snl..I deal in real problems who. I have been a real world problem solver for 30 years. Troubleshooting is what I do for a living. First as a Special Forces Soldier, then as a paramedic (over 5000 emergency runs, many of them life or death, and I was the senior paramedic), then as a troubleshooter for hvac systems in hospitals, skyscrapers, national computer centers, all sorts of places where people are breathing down your neck to solve their problem, and solve it now, and the buck stops with you, cause you are the expert, the last one in line, you are there cause no one else could resolve it. I know what I am doing who, I know how to solve problems. This is the hardest one I have ever dealt with, but I will solve it, you can bet on it.<P>who....The A is a pretty convienent tool for us to use to stay away from the problems that need to be adressed. I do agree a lot with what you say about fit although your experience with "fit" has been masked by secrecy. IT'S NOT REAL UNTIL YOU DEAL WITH IT OPENLY.<P><BR>Snl...I agree who, and that is why I am here, not on some ws support board. It is also why I was honest with my w, told her things she never could have known otherwise. it is why I have willingly participated in reconcilliation efforts, and it is why I violated a promise to ow to tell stuff. Secrecy is no good, it served a purpose of discretion, it is part of how humans avoid unwanted interference, but you cannot make or maintain a relationship on it, it has a season, but it is short, and must end. That was one of the things I learned, after I had made that promise, and it caused a lot of anger from the ow. If I wanted to keep her my secret friend I could have, pretty much, but I want more, I want everyone healed, me her, my w her h, and their is only one path for that, radical honesty. It is a painful traumatic event to go through, but if we are gonna accept that affairs happen, and for reasons, then we need to expose them and the truths behind them. The marriage either survives and heals, or the marriage ends, and the participants heal individually, but it is on it's own merits. As for the lovers, their future is unwritten as well. Try as we might, you cannot trade one spouse for another, there are no gaurantees. They may have to live with remorse, coming to grips with the reality they used or were used by another in the name of love. Or them may have to accept the pain of unrequited love because someone chose duty, or they must live with rejection cause it really wasn't love, someone loves their spouse afterall, or they may have to deal with the misery of later in life realizing they chose wrong, and lost their chance at love. I can understand why my kids are so adamant about never marrying, why do we subject ourselves to these emotional risks? It is indeed a mystery, but I agree with shakespeare(?) beter to have loved and lost, then to have never loved at all. Good luck with your w who. And whether she stays or goes, the true measure of agape love (IMO) is doing what you can to make anothers life better. That is a whole lot different that saying I will love you, but only if you stay with me and act as I need....ya know?

I think the only way the WS can see things is if he truly falls in a deep love some day and then his wife cheats on him while he things he is so deeply in love. Then try to say nice things about the other guy.