<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rodger:<BR><STRONG>I think the only way the WS can see things is if he truly falls in a deep love some day and then his wife cheats on him while he things he is so deeply in love. .</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>lol...yeah that's a good one Rodger. I'll bet all those "psycological truths" will go right out the window at that point.<BR>David

Dear Owen: <P>My H was an OM. He has told me that he didn't feel bad about the relationship he had with OW because of what she verbalized about her husband. He also told me that he did feel POWERFUL about being "the ONE" for the OW. This was a HUGE part of the affair.<P>I don't think that people who are involved in an affair like to "see" the OP's spouse as a "living, breathing, feeling creature"...it would make what they're doing (having an affair) seem cruel and selfish. So much easier to "ease" the conscience by telling yourself that this is "what is/was meant to be,"...So much easier to "accept" the OP's opinion of his/her spouse as "truth"-- OP says his W is a controlling, unkept shrew and, well, she must be!!! Or, OP says her H is an unbearable, controlling jerk and, well, he must be!!!<P>I think my H's OW would cringe if she really knew me-- not because I'm an unkept, controlling shrew-- but because I'm a loving, compassionate, honest, hopeful, and caring human being. In other words, SHE DOESN'T KNOW ME. Her opinion of me has been shaped by what my H has told her about me-- not rosey, good things by a long shot. Are my bad habits part of me? YES!!!-- but they don't DEFINE ME in my entirety. Yes, I can be picky; yes, I can be vein; yes, I can be inconsiderate of others at times; and YES! I can be a VERY IMPATIENT and VERY RUDE DRIVER ( [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] ) -- but I also possess all of the good qualities mentioned above. <P>On the other hand, my H has a hard time seeing the OW's husband as anything but the "jerk" she painted him to be. Yet my H doesn't even know OW's H. How can he be so certain that OW's H is of no concern???? <P>Why is it so hard for my H to accept that OW's H may be a loving, caring individual? My guess is that it would make him feel guilty to admit that he was the cause of hurting another human being.<P>Moreover, do I think OW meant to hurt me and draw my H away from his children? No-- I think my H gave her the "ammunition" to feel okay about her decision to cheat... "My wife doesn't mean anything to me anymore; I never knew what real love was until I met you...."<P>I believe that people involved in an affair always give each other "permission" to cheat. I also believe that they use certain phrases, "You know I'd never ask you to leave your marriage for me-- or, I'd never want to make you unhappy" under the guise of lessening their own guilt. It's a win-win situation for the cheater: they're no longer responsible for the OP's decision to cheat, and they must surely be a decent human being for attempting to "do the right thing." <P>As far as the betrayed spouse always wanting the WS to do the "right thing" and stay married -vs- being happy (leaving the marriage for the OP), well, IMHO, that's a little far-fetched.<P>In my marriage, my H is free to leave. I will NOT fall at his feet and beg him to stay. I will NOT point out why I'm "better" or the "right" choice-- at this point I'm not so certain that I am the right choice for him, or even if he's the right choice for me.<P>Now, almost two years post d-day, H and I are still very much struggling with finding our way back to each other. It's proven to be a long, hard journey. <P>Peace to you and your wife! As always, I remain hopeful. ~Marie

SNL,<P>So, if you've got it all figured out, and you and the woman were such a great fit, why are you "Sad and Lonely?".<P>Morality works. Immorality makes us unhappy in the long run. It's not just an arbitrary "rule", but something that has been discovered over the ages to make a better society and a happier one too.<P>-AD

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ohmy_marie:<BR><STRONG>Dear Owen: <P>My H was an OM. He has told me that he didn't feel bad about the relationship he had with OW because of what she verbalized about her husband. He also told me that he did feel POWERFUL about being "the ONE" for the OW. This was a HUGE part of the affair.<P>I don't think that people who are involved in an affair like to "see" the OP's spouse as a "living, breathing, feeling creature"...it would make what they're doing (having an affair) seem cruel and selfish. So much easier to "ease" the conscience by telling yourself that this is "what is/was meant to be,"...So much easier to "accept" the OP's opinion of his/her spouse as "truth"-- OP says his W is a controlling, unkept shrew and, well, she must be!!! Or, OP says her H is an unbearable, controlling jerk and, well, he must be!!!<P>I think my H's OW would cringe if she really knew me-- not because I'm an unkept, controlling shrew-- but because I'm a loving, compassionate, honest, hopeful, and caring human being. In other words, SHE DOESN'T KNOW ME. Her opinion of me has been shaped by what my H has told her about me-- not rosey, good things by a long shot. Are my bad habits part of me? YES!!!-- but they don't DEFINE ME in my entirety. Yes, I can be picky; yes, I can be vein; yes, I can be inconsiderate of others at times; and YES! I can be a VERY IMPATIENT and VERY RUDE DRIVER ( [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] ) -- but I also possess all of the good qualities mentioned above. <P>On the other hand, my H has a hard time seeing the OW's husband as anything but the "jerk" she painted him to be. Yet my H doesn't even know OW's H. How can he be so certain that OW's H is of no concern???? <P>Why is it so hard for my H to accept that OW's H may be a loving, caring individual? My guess is that it would make him feel guilty to admit that he was the cause of hurting another human being.<P>Moreover, do I think OW meant to hurt me and draw my H away from his children? No-- I think my H gave her the "ammunition" to feel okay about her decision to cheat... "My wife doesn't mean anything to me anymore; I never knew what real love was until I met you...."<P>I believe that people involved in an affair always give each other "permission" to cheat. I also believe that they use certain phrases, "You know I'd never ask you to leave your marriage for me-- or, I'd never want to make you unhappy" under the guise of lessening their own guilt. It's a win-win situation for the cheater: they're no longer responsible for the OP's decision to cheat, and they must surely be a decent human being for attempting to "do the right thing." <P>As far as the betrayed spouse always wanting the WS to do the "right thing" and stay married -vs- being happy (leaving the marriage for the OP), well, IMHO, that's a little far-fetched.<P>In my marriage, my H is free to leave. I will NOT fall at his feet and beg him to stay. I will NOT point out why I'm "better" or the "right" choice-- at this point I'm not so certain that I am the right choice for him, or even if he's the right choice for me.<P>Now, almost two years post d-day, H and I are still very much struggling with finding our way back to each other. It's proven to be a long, hard journey. <P>Peace to you and your wife! As always, I remain hopeful. ~Marie</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Marie,<P> Thank you so much for your reply! You are so right about everything you wrote. I would probably cringe if I knew the WS W. We can only go on what we are told. I am not at all a cruel person. All the things you have written is exactly how I feel. I just didn't know how to put it in writting like you did. I learned a lot from you. Thank you.

snl: You make some fine points and many I agree with being pragmatic myself. Where I disagree completly is your estimation of how you would deal with being the BS. I can say with assurance that you have no idea how you would react until you walk in those shoes. In your case, in my mind, it appears that the only way you're likely to experience that would be to divorce, marry the OP and have her run you through the meat grinder most of us are going through. May you never experience that!<BR> <BR>Right after D-day, I did ask my W to break off contact with her OP. I came to understand that this was a mistake. I love my wife with every fiber of my being. Enough to let her go if she could find happiness and a more fulfilling life elsewhere. I also need to know that if she does stay, it's because she needs to as much as I need her to. I am not willing to settle for less. I'm not willing for her to settle for less. My happiness is endelibly linked to hers. To that end, whenever she gets negative regarding our chances for success, I ask her why she is here. I also tell her if she feels that way, she needs to go. She's still here.... for how long, I don't know. I try every day to be a man worthy of her love. I know I can't make her love me enough to stay, I can only lay the foundation and see what develops. <P>I know my W's OP. The three of us played an on-line game together every night for months. The irony is that my wife playing was her last ditch effort to reach me. They carried on private chats while we played and things developed from there. The twisted thing is I really like the guy and respected him. We grew to be very good friends. Be that as it may. If we can actually re-build our marriage, I fully expect my W to break off all contact. I'll not ask. I believe that, if she stays for the right reasons, contact will become impossible due to the pain it causes me. It's part of the care and nurturing package... To think that lovers can return to being merely friends is completely unrealistic. She may be bitter that it can't be both ways but that is her doing. I've never begrudged her any friends, male or female. The day she slept with him was the day she made this a one or the other choice. I'll do my best to influence her choice but I'll not interfere with her right to make it and I'll support her desicion no matter the outcome. The bottom line I suppose is that, while your perspective as the WS is very enlightening, your perception of the BS's reality is superficial at best....

I am going to speak for my H here, even though he has no clue that I am doing so. He doesn't do MB.<P>My H and my best friend had a 2 year affair. Now, let me set one thing straight here. I said my best friend. She knew me, she knew my marriage, she knew my kids and she knew my family. She also knew my H. She had no excuses whatsoever that some of you might have.<P>She knew I loved my H and that he loved me. She also knew that many men can be flirted with and love it!<P>My H participated in the A. He admits to this-always has. He has never blamed the OW for the part he partook in it.<P>My H is very very sorry. I can not ever say how sorry he is for the hurt he caused all involved. He is ashamed of himself. He is remorseful. He is apologetic.<P>The only reason he gives for his stupidity was feeling unloved atthe time and being flirted with made a combustional combination. It is easier for most anybody to run from the bad and head for the good.<P>The OM confronted my H and asked him "so how did it feel to f*** my wife and then turn around and have a beer with me". Fair enough question but why doesn't that work in reverse? How come he never went to his W and ask her "how did it feel to f*** the OM and go to the movies or call his wife on the phone".<P>You see y'all-it does't mater if you are the OW, OM or the BS. Infidelity is WRONG, but we are all here because of it. <P>Stop blaming just one side of it!!! They can't have an A without having an A partner.<P>Some people are not apologetic or remorseful but many are-and I think a lot of people here are forgetting that.<P>Best wishes to everyone-for a short and healthy healing!<p>[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: heartache ]

snl,<P>You know what? I was having a pretty tough day yesterday and I probably put things a little to harsh. I'm sorry if I stepped over the line with you. I'm not sorry about what I said just the way I presented it.<P><BR>snl<BR>"it was just alternative thinking. BS regularly (as do most human beings) state the range of choices in ways that support our desired outcome. I was just suggesting that other possibilities are well......... possible."<P>possible but not very likely IMHO.<P>snl<BR>"snl...Are you saying every marriage must be preserved, and no om has ever made a better life for ow?"<P>No way, I've asked my W time and time again to go give it a shot. I don't promise I will be here when she gets back nor do I say I won't. Anybody can promise that but changes can happen. We both know that. Now as far as my M goes, I truly believe that we fit enough to make it. It's just a question of motivation. <P>snl<BR>"snl...I agree, and I am. I am fully participating in efforts at reconcilliation, and the ow and I stopped the affair."<P>My bad. <P>snl,<BR>"snl...Ya lost me here. perhaps you misuderstood my somewhat cryptic comments regarding friendship. I was referring to the desire by the bs for their ws to never ever so much as say hello to someone who may indeed be a very good friend to them. The assumption seems to be that the ws is incapable of decideing for themself what their boundaries are and sticking to them. The fact is if it is too painful for the 2 lovers to be friends, they will stop it themselves, IMO it is incredibly disrespectful to dictate to another human being who they can and cannot interact with. IMO the goal seems to be to cut off the ws from anyone that may distract their focus from their bs. This means that instead of "choosing" their bs, they are given no choice but their bs. This feels like mind control to me. If I were a bs I would not lift a finger to stop an A. I would make sure I was fully informed, and I would let my spouse go, I don't want em if they cannot choose me fully on their own and do all the work themself to make it happen. Why would anyone want to be married to someone they are afraid does not love them enough not to stray, I really don't get it. But what I think does happen, is a bs who cannot meet some needs the way another might, feels incredibly jealous and threatened, and so will sacrifice their ws having their needs met (in an apprpriate way, such as conversation, maybe recreation, appropriate affection, not SF), in order to protect what they (the bs) wants. This is the old can a spouse have an opposite gender best friend question. The usual answer is no, cause it leads sex and and marital disharmony. But if ws has elected to stay (for religious reasons, or vows, or whatever), and has no intention of spending excessive time, or having sex with the op, why can't they be friends? The answer is of course jealousy, the bs will feel hurt. That is just another means of control, and rules of protection can be abused. The real question is if someone else is a better friend, or can meet needs better, why not let ones spouse go, if you really love them and want them to be happy. It is a bitter pill to swallow that someone exists who can make your spouse happier than you. It is bad enough in the abstract (knowing it is probable), but it is terrible when you actually know who they are. I find it so curious that almost universally every bs just assumes they can make their spouse happier than anyone else, but work so hard at not letting their ws decide for themself. It is silly, and most likely wrong, that the first person you marry (given how stupid we are about marital assessments) is the one who can make you happiest, or you them. That is why we work so hard at telling people it is not about fitting, it is about committment, and vows, and children....we really don't care if our spouse is happy at all for the most part, we just want em to take care of our EN, and we do not want to have to start all over with someone else."<P>This is where we are going to share a fundamental difference. I am going to say in the vast majority of affairs the boudries have already been violated (yes, the WS's boundries). Why do they think they are grown up enough to limit their relationship to only one part? And why would they (WS) want to live in a relationship when they know their partner (BS) is not happy? This is why the WS says the BS is controlling. I have no problems with my W being friends with anyone. But she should use care and respect for my feelings and our relationship when pursuing those friendships. I have no doubt in my mind that W would object to me having a friendship with a stripper named Kitty. I also have no doubt in my mind that W could be friends with OM (could it just end there? no way, and even if it did it would get in the way of our relationship). But they screwed the friendship up. They both wanted more and to get more they stepped all over my W's morals and my boundries. Now care and protection is essential if W and I are going to be married. Has nothing to do with control. <BR>I have to be honest here. The one common trait that I see in almost every WS is lack of responsibility. Usually the BS's are the responsible one's in the marriage. This common cry about control is a way for the irresponsable party to cry foul (you're trying to control me) and it always comes at a time when the WS to make a choice. By crying "control" it allows the WS to delay the choice they need to make thereby allowing them to escape responsibility. Now, I'm not going to say that this is always the case but I do believe that it is used way more than it should be. I'm sure that as soon as I say the "controlled" person put themselves in the place to be controlled you are going to point out that they can't just wake up one day and get out. They have been conditioned that way. That's where this life line (op) comes in and rescues them. What's going to happen once they've been rescued? That is when the problems are going to start between the WS and the OP. <BR>snl, I will agree with a lot of what you say about letting a person be happy and choose. If you'll bear with me I will give you exactly what happens in the BS mind. Once the A is exposed it is usually presented to the BS as "I screwed up it's your call". At that point a BS makes a decision (something the WS would not do). If the BS chooses to leave then it's over but if the BS chooses to stay that is when an incredible thing happens. Just like the WS's affair is created, nurtured, and protected in secrecy the BS knows that he/she must give their soul to WS even though they are know they might get hurt. In order to protect themselves the BS create their own "little world" and are blind to certain things. They only handle what they can handle at the time. Any little crumb is magnified 1000 times and that is what feels up the love bank. We pass off our angry outbursts and disrespecful judgements as being OK because that is not even close to the pain that we are feeling. Sometimes I sit back and read some of the posts here and just think "how weak are these people?" until I remember I was one of them. SNL, I'm not trying to excuse the BS behavior but it is real and the pain is excruciating at times. I'm sure that the incredible feelings that the WS feels for the other person are just the opposite. There has to be a depression when you feel those feelings and then start to think you won't have them if you settle for your spouse. It takes the BS a while to see this and understand it. When you see posts on the board like "Someone remind me again why I'm doing this" that's when they are starting to come out of that little world they created to protect themselves. <BR>I agree 100% with your comment about not stopping the A. If I had it to do over again I would have plan B'd from the start. But my W like others said that she would try. Once that decision was made I found myself headed down that slippery slope and reason went out the window. I was surviving on emotions just like she was. Only we were in two different relationships. The only thing that could have prevented a lot of pain was honesty and we know that honesty is not at the top of a WS's list during an A. Not trying to bag on the WS but it is what it is. <P>snl<BR>"snl...Why not? And what makes you think her 28 years of trying were not enough? Sorry who, this is just more of the keep trying till you drop dead stuff. When is enough enough? I didn't damage anything (nor she mine), our marriages died a long time ago, if they ever were at all. Ya know, people really do marry the wrong people who, it is not a myth or anything. It is not awful to realize you really do not want to live any more of your life with someone. But neither of us is filing for divorce, and if we do, it won't be to run to each other. We have parted, and our marriages survive or not on their own merits. But what we have experienced is how it is to have a friend. There was no secret, both our spouses knew about each of us, we even tried to introduce them and involve them, but as usual they really had no interest in us or what we were doing. They only got interested when we started withdrawing from them, stopped meeting their needs (we are both good at meeting others needs, at the expense of ours). And nature took its course, we realized we had a lot more in common with each other than our spouses, and it got very confusing after that. That cannot be changed, we may do duty and vows and stay in our marriages, but if I do, it is gonna be because it works as good with my w as it did with ow, otherwise why be married at all? Rather be single. As for ow, don't know, she is stronger now too, maybe she can make it work, or maybe she will be unwilling to live without a true intimate bond too, but at least now she (as I) have a choice, we know what it feels like to fit someone."<P>Disagree again. I'm not about "save the marriage at all cost" but I did try to explain the BS mind set when the A is initially exposed. You guys are going to have to deal with it because it really happens. I just believe that you should be nice and it's not nice to sneak around. If it didn't matter either way, you guys would have brought it out in the open at the beginning but it did matter to one of you two.<P><BR>snl<BR>"snl...didn't say he was a monster, but if he had been bonded to his wife, she would not have wandered. Makes no difference how he (or any of us) shows love, if your spouse needs something else, you don't fit. There is no reward for good intentions, and this is not a game, it is emotional life or death. My wife does not fit (love) me the way I need either, she can't help it, likewise me toward her, I know she tries "in her own way" but it makes no difference, trying does not count, it either works or it does not. Why in the world should anyone spend a lifetime trying to fit someone? If it does not work, end the misery for everyone."<P>Have you told her how you want to be loved? People can be taught. I know I've tried to show my W how I like and she's resisted so far. She hasn't shown me anything but I've figured a few things out on my own and I think I've surprised her. She's afraid to tell me because I think she know's I can do it. You were right earlier about motovation. Are you motivated to teach and learn from your W? That's the big question for you. Are you willing to take the chance?<P><BR>who

Dear Owen,<P>This thread has gone off on a different tangent. We would be interested in your thoughts. Have we been able to respond to your question or helped in any way? <P>Please let us know. <P>L.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><STRONG>acted with anything but ethical behaviour.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One word : Gasbag.<BR>Two words : Amoral misanthrope.<BR>Three words : Home wrecking scum<P>Bama<P> [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi, Owen, former WS here.<P>In my case I don't think the OM had any remorse. I saw the gamut of emotions from zero to slight distain for my marriage run by them. I didn't have great big loveey dovey romantic affairs - I didn't kid myself that I could ever mean that much to those two guys. They both saw me as an object, a fantasy, and like children were happy to play for a bit with their little 'toy.'<P>FIne by me except for the same I feel in having hurt a man who does love me deeply over shallow individuals.

Sorry,the kids and I have been sick most of the weekend so I have not spent much time online.<P>Yeah,I guess the answer is that each situation is different.

SNL<P>Well I made a quick judgement after reading and responding to a post of yours several months ago. After reading this inspired essay I have again considered my first impression of you and now I am very comfortable with it. You are IMHO the MOST Pathetic Pontificating Person I have seen on the Internet. Would an honorable man send the woman he loves home to the unsuspecting spouse to sleep with and function as a family? No, maybe it is just I, but I feel these thoughts you put forward here are sick, immoral and show your total lack of consideration for reality. I don&#8217;t mean to sound hateful and I am not, but you to me represent a real cancer in this world. <P>I am reminded from the Bible Paul&#8217;s warning of when you feel you are standing strong, be careful because you can fall into the same sin. I guess it is in the realm of possibility that the planets could align and I could meet the woman of my dreams and heaven and earth could not keep up apart. Guess what, two or three weeks later I am going to her husband, bagging forgiveness of God and him and making this relationship honest. I am not going to let this woman I love dig herself into a ditch she can&#8217;t get out of. But that&#8217;s me, I&#8217;m a man, you apparently are just a person with psychological needs and feelings. Again, I will pray for you and really do not like sounding like this but IMHO you are a weak, UN-honorable person. Good luck and God bless you and your family.

thanks for your input need2know. But the MOST? pathetic on the internet, whew...that is hard to believe. However, I see you have issues. Keep in mind the request was for feelings and such of om, I simply stated them as best I could, they are neither right or wrong, they are just the facts. Keep in mind that as this relationship unfolded both the ow and I voluntarily concluded we must stop, and further she sent me home to my w (as I did her to her H), interesting you simply looked at one side of it. May I ask a request? Perhaps you could write a post on Biblical injunctions against pride and judegement. But thank-you for your prayers, I assume you were sincere.<p>[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]

But thank-you for your prayers, I assume you were sincere.<P>snl,<BR>I am sincere. I am not judging but I know I sound that way. I have felt bad since I hit enter, but I do mean what I wrote. See--- that's my problem with my wife too--- I can't just leave it alone. I know my comments seem judgemental and I know I am no better then you, we are all sinners and all fall short of the glory of God. I guess I will learn and I do have a heart and pray to God to change ME. But I also am happy with myself, I reconize my weaknesses and am open to criticism. sorry for the personal attact--- that's really not me and I should have not doen it. I am sorry. Have a great day. <BR>[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ][/QB][/QUOTE]

&#8220;snl.... It saddens me so much ow (and perhaps me as well) may have to live (out of duty and constaints) the rest of our lives in unfullfilled marriages cause we cannot bear the discomfort of those around us. &#8220;<P>SNL, get a grip. You have the most incredible ability to twist thing around to make you the victim. Be assured that no one here buys it. YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM. The MB concepts NO NOT say that you or your OW have to lives in &#8220; unfulfilled marriages&#8221;. If you are not happy in your marriage and do not want to work on making is a passionate, loving relationship, then by all means get a divorce. Do not torture your wife, your OW&#8217;s husband and yourself this way. What you are doing is far more painful to everyone involved then you just leaving and getting a divorce. As a BS it is far more painful to be treated with distain and disrespect then it is to have a marriage break up. <P>As you know, I speak from experience on this. My ex-H had the same attitude that you do about keeping a marriage together. I am so much happier now that we are divorced. He on the other hand is still so miserable people can hardly stand to be around him. Why is this? Because his unhappiness had nothing to do with our marriage. His OW&#8217;en were oh so worth it at the time. They made him feel SOOO GOOOOD. But you see, in the end none of those were real relationships. He is now in another relationship and engaged. But despite find his new true love he is still miserable Why? Again&#8230; because his unhappiness has nothing to do with our marriage or with his current relationship. He is basically a very depressed man who refuses to get the help he needs. No amount of extramarital flings or &#8220;soul mates&#8221; are going to make him feel better in the long run. Sure the temporary high feels good and relieves the depression. But in the long run, when body chemistry settles down, he is still miserable.<P>You say you stay because you cannot &#8220;bear the discomfort of those around&#8221; you. Well, if that&#8217;s your reason for staying it&#8217;s not worth it. You see, you are causing more hurt by staying with your attitude then you would cause by leaving.<P>snl&#8230;.&#8221;But then that says no one really cares much about us, wonder why we don't count, our happiness is not important.....oh yeah, I forgot we are pondscum and the feelings of ws are not important, but then again the feelings of property are never important...right? They just need to be firmly reindoctrinated....oops I mean fixed.&#8221;<P>Oh get real&#8230;.. What a load of self-pity. You treat your wife like pond scum and them you expect her and others to feel for you? Again, if you do not want to work on making your marriage a happy and passionate one, then just leave. It is not that people do not car about the WS&#8217;s happiness, it is not that do not like to see the WS dragging the BS through the scum at the bottom of the pond.<P><BR>RE: &#8220;They just need to be firmly reindoctrinated....oops I mean fixed.&#8221;<P>This is disgusting. For those people who want to make their marriage work, concepts/techniques like those taught on MB show them how to put their marriage back on track. But they only work if both people WANT to make it work. No, you do not need to be fixed. Instead, the MB concepts show YOU how you can work with your wife to have a passionate marriage beyond your wildest dreams. But if you do not want to work on your self and your marriage then get a divorce. Go and find your happiness in whatever pond you want to look. And by doing so you will let Thinker look for her own happiness too.<P>z

I have to ditto dlm (way back on page one). The OM in my life was not in it for the ego, power trip or anything like that. And I was certainly no trophy - I'm 11 years older. The OM convinced me to start counceling alone when I thought I was losing my mind. He convinced me to start joint counceling when I was losing my mind and my marriage. He convinced me that it was ok to do the things I needed to do for myself without waiting for my H to tell me it was ok, like join the gym. And then he encouraged me to stay with my H to work it out for myself because he knew I had to try. And I went because it was the right thing to do. OM didn't force me to do anything. He showed me what I was missing, and what I really wanted from my H. Maybe it was different, since mine was only an EA, but the OM wasn't trying to wreck my marriage. He truly wanted me to be happy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zorweb:<BR><STRONG>As you know, I speak from experience on this. My ex-H had the same attitude that you do about keeping a marriage together. I am so much happier now that we are divorced. He on the other hand is still so miserable people can hardly stand to be around him. Why is this? Because his unhappiness had nothing to do with our marriage. His OW’en were oh so worth it at the time. They made him feel SOOO GOOOOD. But you see, in the end none of those were real relationships. </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh Lordy, this is so true of my ex-H as well. <P>I just had to chime in on this remark that is SO TRUE!!<P>Also, to the original topic, the OP who takes the relationship away from the family couldn't give a rats a$$ who they hurt, obviously. <P>I was once an OW, and I apologized (for what that was worth) to the girlfriend of the OM, because I felt like a piece of potty when I realized the HUGE IMPACT of what I'd done...<P>I received no such acknowledgement from any of my ex-H's five OW.... oh, except the ONE who said, "He loves us both"... all the while holding her Bible... but I'm not bitter <that was sarcastic, haha>...<P>Oh, and the OM in my situation? He was an opportunist pig who knew vulnerablity when he saw it and grabbed with both hands... not to say I didn't have my part in it, of course...<p>[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Nyneve ]