Well, I read and posted on a thread last night re: S_N_L's <B> ongoing </B> "quest" to find "fitting your true love" and what it all means in the whole grand scheme of the universe....<P>Then when I was ready for bed last night, I read my BIble a little, and another book I'm currently reading, "Battlefield of your Mind" - teaching me how to "take every thought captive" in order NOT to have constant turmoil in my brain. <P>So, when I first woke up this morning a few thoughts were swirling around in my head (this is when I have my best and most coherent thoughts, believe it or not!). I want to share what I have come up with:<P>First thought: "If you truly LOVE WH, and want him to be happy, and he has found "true love" then <B> let him go be with her</B>. In other words, give him his div."<BR>Second thought: "Yes, I agree. If I truly love him, and want him to be truly happy, I should do that. OK, I will."<BR>Third thought: "I have peace about this decision. Hmmm, must be some kind of new 'plateau' I've reached. OK, I can now do this calmly, rationally, without too much hurt to me. H wants this, H deserves to be happy, and why SHOULD I make him stay in a M he's not happy in? After all, that's UNselfish love on my part....to help make him happy! Cool. How am I doing, Lord? Is this your Will for my life?"<BR>Next thought: "<B> God Speaking Here: I HATE DIVORCE!. </B>"<BR>Next: "Yes, I know you do, BUT true, agape love is sacrificing ourselves for those we love isn't it?"<BR>Next: "<B>What God has joined let NO MAN put asunder. Don't you understand? You are ONE FLESH. It can't be UNDONE just because one (<I>or even both</I>) of you wants to undo it!</B>"<P>So the conclusion I came to is this: My H and I are ONE FLESH. It cannot be taken apart once it is fitted together. I think it was Lexxy last night who used the "chocolate milk" analogy. I'm going to use it too: If one of you is "milk" and the other is the "chocolate mix" and you put them both in a glass, and stir, what do you now get? Yeah! Chocolate milk! So now you don't want chocolate milk anymore. HOW do you take the chocolate OUT of the milk and just have "plain milk" again? YOU CAN'T!! Just like you can never have TWO UNmarried people again after they have married.<P>There was more to it (my revelation from God), with illustrations and scriptural examples of the Israelites and the symbolism of Christ and the church as His bride, etc. I won't bore you all with it, just to say that I think God spoke clearly to me this morning that div. is NOT an option to us (meaning my H and me).<P>Believe me, I'm NOT this "holy" at all (although I wish I was), so this was all just so illuminating to me, and I thought I would share it.<P>Lupo<p>[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: lupolady ]

Lupolady,<P>Good morning!<P>I haven't read the thread you mentioned, but I do want to say you make sense here. I like Lexxie's chocolate milk analogy a lot and your continued thinking.<P>It's so hard, isn't it - to know what is right. I'm also interested in that book your reading as I have constant battles in my head.<P>Thanks for the thread!<P> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Thanks, Lupo! Not a whole lot to add... I agree with you. You worded things very nicely here. I feel like I go through this "discussion" with myself every day.

When you close one door, another one opens up.<BR>I'm clapping for you. In letting go, you hold on to so much more. You'll see. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Clouds

Interesting lupo, I had a similar experience (a revelation) about 5 months ago, maybe I will tell you about it sometime. The religious aspect of all this is both fascinating and agonmizing for a Christian. I don't talk too much about it here, and have tried to find a releigious forum where one could do so without being flamed, or just have mindless dogma thrown in your face, but have not been too successful. But I have talked to a few Christian people who are solidly in the marriage restoration business, and so far 100% have said marriage is not absolute, and if it does not work, divorce is ok. One was a Catholic priest, the other was a Christian psychologist, who had been involved in a restoration ministry for 30+ years. More on your other comments later, time permitting.

Like it also is said "there are other fish in the sea" "you just need to catch the right one". I agree with if you love someone set them free, if they dont come back it was never meant to be. It is so true and it does work. It worked for me anyways <BR> (((((((Lots of Hugs))))))))

Lupolady,

Oh, why did you have to go and say that?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Just last night I had decided, well not actually decided, but come to the conclusion, well, not actually a conclusion - maybe more like a posture - a internal stance or something ... to let her go.

And now, I read this! Either God is using you to send me a message or ...

But, what if a Woman puts it asunder? OK, yeah, we don't want to be bible lawyers here, that was the guys Jesus was having this discussion with.

I think I'm more at the point of "if she files, I won't fight" - and for now, I'll try to stay away from her, since we are separated. I'll give W money every month, but that's all. At least thats what I'm saying today.

I do very much appreciate your posting. Last night when I went to bed, I was trying to read the Bible - in teh psalms, but didn't get very far. I appreciate you giving your "path of discovery".

-AD

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AbandonedDad:<BR><STRONG>Either God is using you to send me a message or ...<P>I think I'm more at the point of "if she files, I won't fight" </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks, AD, for your thoughts, too. I don't know if God is using me to send you a message. I'm just sharing what 5 months of "searching" for God's Will has brought me to.<BR>No one can tell you if you should fight, either. That's too personal a decision for anyone to make but you. I DO know, however, that I only came to any conclusions that I have come to when God has led me to a particular book, or passage of scripture, AND "backed it up" or confirmed it with at least 2 other sources (one must always be His Word). Just MY need for confirmation here, NOT trying to change anybody's way of conversing with their Lord.<P>S_N_L, I WOULD like to hear what revelation you had. Also, have you gone over to "Other Topics" forum? Sometimes they have some pretty lively biblical debates going on! I don't really have time to engage in those types of things now....just trying to work, keep a big house, lots of dogs, a cat, all the other details that used to be shared by two, AND be tuned to God's "still, small voice" in me.<P>Free2BeMe, it's "Battlefield of the Mind" by Joyce Meyer. My best friend had been trying to get me to listen to her for about 2 years. OK, this summer, I started listening! Her whole ministry is about bridling your thoughts and actions, taking them captive, NOT letting them rule you, or create destructive thought processes so that you can live a Godly life, pleasing in God's sight....VERY good stuff! She's on very early in the morning on FFAM (I THINK!) And WGN.<P>Lupo

Hi Lupo,<P>You once again have made us think. This is good. You have also taken some illustrations used by others to promote their own interests and put is in a better perspective. <P>I thought about Lexxy's choc milk illustration, read it twice yet something about it did not ring quite right but I could not put me finger on it until now. Here goes. Lexxy's original illustration was to show that when an OP and WS mix you can not separate them like mixing choco syrup with milk. Ok, that is true but as you pointed out the mixture was present previous to the A. Ahh..... here is where I now add my 2 cents. <P>So the original combination is NOT op/ws but the bs/ws originally knows as H/W. Hm.... then what is the OP? The OP is a separate mixture and added piece. The children are also pieces - added mixtures with a twist, they will always fit in because they are a part of each of the 2 original combination. <P>Children in a family arrangement, add flavor enhance the beauty of the family, etc. What about the OP? Well, remember kids who like to pretend? Make choco milk by adding dirt? Looks like choco milk but taste it and spit!!!!! <P>The point is that what the OP would add to the already existing marriange/family arrangement is an additional ingredient but not one that would ever work to promote family unity. Yes some may go on and marry the OP but there is always a price to pay. Lexxy was right to use that illustration, just got the players and ingredients mixed up. Another take on this is the amount used by each member. Too much of either ingredient is hazardous making a good product. What is the fix? Each know their limits and abilities. But fixing it by adding another 'unrelated' ingredient is not the answer, anymore than dirt being added to milk to make chocolate milk. <P>See the OP pretends or fantasizes about being the other half with the WS. Call it fog, fantasy, whatever it is still built on lies, deceit, greediness, selfishness, etc. Some OPs are more creative than others, some want to use an A as an escape and yet still others use it as a revenge tool on their own spouse. <P>Now in order to do this, some WS's use their 'powers of reason' and come up with some pretty good analogies, stories, illustrations, explanations to prove that their A (aka fantasy/fog experience) is real, unique, viable, true, worth more than their personal value and that of their friends, family and relatives. Even to the point that some Ws/OPs will say that those hurt are doing it to themselves and that the OP/WS is really not to blame because, 'OP/WS's need to be happy too.'<P>For what it is worth (I expect to get flamed for this), as long as the WS/OP are fighting for their A, there is not a whole lot anyone can do but let them go and wear each other out. Like a child that will not listen, eventually the parent (depending on the age of the child), will have to let them go and learn life's lesson the hard way. For the BS some of our WSs are pushing for that. They choose to be childish. They fight us or ignore us so that they have an excuse to continue in their wayward course. This is an admitted thing by some. Noteable in more cases than the WS group would probably admit. <P>So, Lupo in answer to your question about loving them and letting them go? My answer is yes. Why? Because they will go anyway. If you don't they could continue to fight you and use you as the excuse while they are walking out the door of their own accord. <P>The logic reminds me of the lady who rear ended my dad at an intersection. This woman had insurance. She jumped out of her car and accused me dad of backing into her. It is was not a small ding but crunched both bumpers (thank goodness no sustained injuries, except wounded pride and a stiff neck). When my dad regained his composure (trying very hard not to laugh at the hysterical woman), he learned that she accused him of hitting her because she was too afraid the police would get involved and she would have to tell her husband that she caused 'another' accident. Hm..... does that thought pattern sound familar? That happened over 25 years ago. I wonder what ever happened to that lady. <P>JHMO. <P>L.<p>[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Orchid ]

I still believe "Love is a Decision". WE are sinful by nature and if we acted on all our emotional feelings nobody could endure it.<BR> Have any of you ever heard the song "Guard Your Heart" sung by Steve Green? It sends a powerful message to me, about a whole lot of things. We are the gatekeeper to our soul. WE either allow God in or keep him out. We also allow Satan to work in us, which is much easier because we have that old sin nature.<BR> H told me he thinks God is punishing him and I asked how? He said the high blood pressure, acid reflux, anxiety, etc. I said <BR>"look, H. those are the consequences of the stress you have chosen to put yourself through. It has nothing to do with God. You know right from wrong and you chose to act upon it. God forgives us, but he doesn't take away the consequences of our actions. Sorry, that's life. We dont' have to like it but we have to deal with the consequences of whatever we choose to do.<BR> So, if H ends up divorcing me, I will always consider myself to be married to him.<BR>My vows said "in sickness and in health, until death do us part". Maybe all this is a form of "sickness" part. Believe me, I need the Lord to help me through it.<BR> Maybe my rebellion and attitude is also a part of this situation. God has allowed it to come to this point to get me back to refocus on him instead of continuing along my merry way to hell? Everything happens for a reason.<BR>Mikkey

Lupo--<P>Beautiful! Just Beautiful.<P>You have identified and defined my struggle to let my H go...<BR>I keep asking God what to do...how to do it...other answers keep putting themselves in my path.<P>At this point, it is not my decision any longer...it is God's.<P>I will not fight, nor beg...but I will not quit believing in or loving my H.<P>He may have lost who he is, but I haven't.<P>Cali

One should also consider Jesus' parable of the prodigal son. Most assuredly God hates divorce and no human should put asunder what God has joined together. However, both of those premises, no matter how profound, give us any control over our WS. We can want to stay married, but if they don't they are free to leave us. Guilting them into staying through forcingbiblical principals on them is only likely to get us more of the same behavior somewhere down the road.<P>Might it not be more effective to give the prodigal exactly what they are asking for? Give it with love and give it with best wishes and let them find on their own that what they've truly asked for is to live in the mire.Might it not be more fruitful for them to come to desire on their own to come home to loving arms that await them? Just some food for thought......

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mthrrhbard:<BR><STRONG>Guilting them into staying through forcing biblical principals on them is only likely to get us more of the same behavior somewhere down the road.<P>Might it not be more effective to give the prodigal exactly what they are asking for? Give it with love and give it with best wishes and let them find on their own that what they've truly asked for is to live in the mire.Might it not be more fruitful for them to come to desire on their own to come home to loving arms that await them? Just some food for thought......</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Um, don't know if this was directed to me or someone else. I just want to add that my WH is G-O-N-E. Has been gone and living w/OW since May 18. I certainly have NO control or "say-so" over anything he is choosing to do. The biblical principles were not for HIM, but for ME. I have been struggling with what I am supposed to be doing re: div., A, and all of it. I have been here, waiting and praying, and wondering where it all is heading. That's all. I wanted a clear sign from God that I was on the right track, and I believe He gave it to me. When I do talk to H, we talk about "nothing" at all, just laugh, tell jokes, small talk about family members, etc. NO talk about "us" or "them" or anything substantial. So, there is no guilting. Someone on some post I read described their actions during this time as "Plan A with a mission..." and that is what I have adopted as my plan. This is what I do. It's all I can do. If it works, and WH wants to come home, I am here. If not, well, that's what I was asking God about during that conversation.<P>As far as the Prodigal thingy. I believe my WH has been the "arch-typical" Prodigal! He went to her with totally NEW, crisp Credit cards, now all maxed out. What did he spend the money on? Trips, restuarants, parties, you name it! Acted JUST like the Prodigal in Luke. Now? He hasn't got the money to pay it all back! Now has a job that he only likes so/so....JUST LIKE THE PRODIGAL!! Too funny to me! Just watching him move through the exact steps the Prodigal did, all the while the watchful, patient father waiting for the son to return home. It fits. Is what I pray for WH, to return to His Heavenly Father. Then he will be led to his future direction. He gets NONE from me, I'm not that all-seeing or knowing.<P>Me? I'm just watching it all play out....God is in control, always has been. I'm just trying to keep control over my mind and thoughts, so I don't drive myself NUTS!!!<P>Mikkey: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>if H ends up divorcing me, I will always consider myself to be married to him.<BR>My vows said "in sickness and in health, until death do us part". Maybe all this is a form of "sickness" part. <BR>Maybe my rebellion and attitude is also a part of this situation. God has allowed it to come to this point to get me back to refocus on him instead of continuing along my merry way to hell? Everything happens for a reason.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>This is exactly where I was, too, where I am. I am paying the price for MY rebellion, too. Ah, well. Proof positive to me that God will ALWAYS have His way with His children - <B> one way or another.</B> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Thanks for some great comments, everyone!<P>Lupo

Hi Lupolady,<P>I'm not folowing many stories here lately. My ideas were not directed at anyone in particular, just thrown out there for some thought.<P>We don't know from the story of the prodigal how long it took him to get sick of eating pig's fodder. I suppose it takes some longer than others. Then there is the sin of pride, which may prevent some from ever returning to their "father". One can only do what you have done, give it to God and seek His will for YOUR life. He won't ask you to account for H, just yourself. His plan for us is greater than any we can imagine for ourselves and for those who believe in Him and keep His commandments He works ALL things for good. <P>Be steadfast in seeking His will and you will be blessed. Many continued prayers for God's healing in hurt and injured marriages! All the best to you Lupo and everyone else trying to make sense out some something so senseless.

Hey All,<P> Going along with the choco milk gig jobie, did you ever notice that if you let it sit for an extended time, the chocolate settles to the bottom?

mikkey...I still believe "Love is a Decision". WE are sinful by nature and if we acted on all our emotional feelings nobody could endure it.<P>snl...Didn't you act on emotion to get married? If so, then what, your emotional is no longer to be trusted? What if your emotional side says you made a mistake? That is my problem with ignore our emotions arguments, they do not really help us, we act on emotion all the time. It is not emotion that is the issue. Yes there needs to be cognitive oversight, but that does not mean we ignore the truths of our emotions.<P>m...Have any of you ever heard the song "Guard Your Heart" sung by Steve Green? It sends a powerful message to me, about a whole lot of things. We are the gatekeeper to our soul. WE either allow God in or keep him out. We also allow Satan to work in us, which is much easier because we have that old sin nature.<P>snl...Not familiar with the song, but I agree with your statement.<P>m...H told me he thinks God is punishing him and I asked how? He said the high blood pressure, acid reflux, anxiety, etc. I said <BR>"look, H. those are the consequences of the stress you have chosen to put yourself through. It has nothing to do with God. <P>snl..I agree. I have come to believe God pretty much leaves our marital behaviour up to us, but I do think He made us to fit a few much better than others, and has a marital plan for us, which we regularly ignore (freewill) and suffer accordingly.<P>m...You know right from wrong and you chose to act upon it.<P>snl...We all "think" we know, if we actually knew, there would be no dispute over what is right and wrong.<P>m....So, if H ends up divorcing me, I will always consider myself to be married to him.<BR>My vows said "in sickness and in health, until death do us part". <P>snl...One can think whatever they want, but keep in mind those vows are not Biblical, they are a made up cultural tradition. Further the Bible does not actually define marriage, no one knows for sure what it is spiritually. <P>m....Maybe all this is a form of "sickness" part. Believe me, I need the Lord to help me through it.<P>snl...Maybe, and if so, it should heal in due time.<P>m...Maybe my rebellion and attitude is also a part of this situation. God has allowed it to come to this point to get me back to refocus on him instead of continuing along my merry way to hell? Everything happens for a reason.<P>snl....Yep, and funny (not haha) hiow everyone involved in a circumstance sees God's hand at work, only problem is not the same work, how do we tell what is right? One first thinks an affair is a terrible sin, but in fact it often leads to very desireable outcomes.... could this be God at work? He moves in mysterious ways, and reserves to Himself the right to put "asunder", one could argue that is exactly what He is doing. There is no reason to assume God does not end marriages, He certainly has the power to do so, and mentioned that specifically in the Bible. I dunno, just food for thought. Good luck in your life mikkey.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><STRONG>I thought about Lexxy's choc milk illustration, read it twice yet something about it did not ring quite right but I could not put me finger on it until now. Here goes. Lexxy's original illustration was to show that when an OP and WS mix you can not separate them like mixing choco syrup with milk....... <BR>Lexxy was right to use that illustration, just got the players and ingredients mixed up.<BR>[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Orchid ]</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well...lol....just to clarify....when I said this analogy it was in response to someone saying that just because a H and W were in love when they married that it can be there again. You just gotta set your mind to it.<BR>And my point was that if you had love, but you add in all of your lifes experiences (good or bad) it doesn't mean you can go back to that "in-love" point in time. Just cuz it was there -- does not mean you can always re-create it. <P>It had nothing whatsoever to do with OM/OW.

Lupo ,<BR> I have come to believe that I cannot control this situation . I leave it all up to God If he wants it to continue or end ,He can see more than us , He knows what the future brings. I will be the best that I can be when ws is around but its all up to God .<BR>And since I took that mind set I have found peace , I rest , I eat , I laugh . I pray for guidance that will work for His plan in our marriage . And I trust He has the best plan.