While reading the posts on this forum I have found that most of them are written by the BS so I hope I don&#8217;t get too flamed but I really do have a concern that I hope I can get help with. I hope this was the correct forum to post this question.<P>For the past year I have had an EA with another woman. It has been mostly e-mail and MSN Messenger, a few phone calls and few short visits. I have spent maybe 3 or 4 hours with her one on one. There hasn&#8217;t been anything more than a handful of hugs or touches. At times we would exchange e-mail 3 or 4 times a week and sometimes even more. She has a tendency to try to slow me down and back off. At one time she was feeling extremely guilty and asked me to stop writing her. She went two and a half months and then she contacted me again. It has been two weeks since I have heard from her. I keep wanting to write to her but I haven&#8217;t.<P>Even though I know that she cares for me and enjoys having me as a friend, I feel like our friendship has mostly been one sided. My counselor has said that she wants a &#8220;pal&#8221;. My friend literally calls me her &#8220;best friend&#8221;. She has gone through some difficult times and wanted a friend an confidant. I have wanted her for more than a friend. I have told her that I would leave my wife for her. At one time I believe that is what she wanted me to do but she has told me that she doesn&#8217;t want to be the cause of a marriage breaking up.<P>While my friend meets some of my needs my friendship with her has been very difficult because I just ache to have her for more than a &#8220;pal&#8221;. If circumstances were different and I had been single when I had met her I think we would be very compatible. It is incredible how alike we think and much we enjoy many of the same things.<BR> <BR>Deep down I know that I should end it but I find it very difficult to do so. She meets or could meet emotional needs that my wife just doesn&#8217;t meet. I have talked with my wife about my unmet needs but it is very difficult for her to meet them. I have tried to find out what her needs are and then meet her needs but I guess I don&#8217;t do a very good job. I brought home the book His Needs - Her Needs and she refused to read it. She also refuses to go to counseling with me.<P>This is so difficult. How do I end this EA with hurting the OW? How do I gain the desire to end the EA? How do I deal with the frustrations of thinking that the OW does and could meet my needs better than my wife? How do stop missing the OW? How do I put the effort into a marriage that I haven&#8217;t been happy in for several years? How do I gain the desire to put effort into my marriage?

Want Love - You said "This is so difficult. How do I end this EA with hurting the OW? How do I gain the desire to end the EA? How do I deal with the frustrations of thinking that the OW does and could meet my needs better than my wife? How do stop missing the OW? How do I put the effort into a marriage that I haven’t been happy in for several years? How do I gain the desire to put effort into my marriage?" <P>Coming from another WS, here's what I think... Your OW is already trying to end it with you. Of course you will both hurt. But she is already pulling away. Good for you for not writing to her. Let her go. Time is the answer to the rest of your questions. <P>What needs was she filling that your wife can't/won't? I'd say conversation was at least one of them. Why won't she read the book? Why is she refusing counseling?

Your friend is obviously trying to remove you from her life. Maybe she is truly does not want to break up a marriage now she realizes how you feel, or maybe someone that is willing to leave a marriage for someone he barely knows in real life, does not sound all that attractive. I don't think you need to worry about hurting her, it looks like she doesn't want to hurt you. If you do not abide by her wishes to cease contact, however, she may make it more clear that she no longer wants you in her life. If you don't want to push her into taking more drastic steps to dump you, just don't contact her. If she does contact you, do not respond.<P>How do you find desire to end the relationship? Does it matter? Are you capable of abiding by her wishes, and doing the right thing, whether you "feel" like it or not at first? Or do you have to go with your feelings, and be tossed around like a boat on the sea. Let your actions be based on what needs to be done, not on your feelings and you will eventually get through the initial pain and mixed feelings. Be a person of integrity, despite the initial pain and emotion.<P>How do you stop thinking that OW could meet your needs better? Maybe she could, most likely she can't. You really don't know her, and she really doesn't know you. You pretty much know what you have revealed to each other, instead of the whole day to day grind of reality. Since the reality is that she is ending the relationship, it really doesn't matter. Focusing on yourself and your marriage and giving the whole situation some time and space will help.<P>You do not have to gain the desire to make your marriage better before you take the actions necessary to make it better. If you wait for the desire and act only on your feelings, your life is always going to be one big mess. Decide what you want then move toward how you want to feel, instead of waiting to feel first. Studying MB's stuff will help give you the tools necessary to do this, with or without your wife's participation initially. <P>Now back to your wife. She actually says she refuses to read the book or go to counceling? If so, what reason does she state? Why does she think you go to counseling? Does she know about your relationship with the OW or your feelings for the OW? <P>In order for posters here to give you better answers to your questions, I'm going to ask a few more.<P>It sounds like your friend meets a need for conversation and maybe non physical affection and maybe most of all admiration. Is that about right? If so, would it be fair to say your wife does not meet these needs to your satisfaction? In your own opinion, what could she do differently so those needs (or others) are met?<P>I'm guessing you and your wife are different personality types. Have you explored your types and understand, even appreciate the differences? This link may help if you are interested: <A HREF="http://www.personalitytype.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.personalitytype.com/</A> <P>How have you tried to find out your wife's needs? If you are not doing a very good job meeting them, why is that? What specifically could you do better? What impact do you think meeting her needs would have on your marriage?<P>The next weeks/months may be extremely difficult for you. You can expect pain, mixed feelings and all sorts of emotion. As you withdraw from your relationship with the OW and focus on yourself and your wife, the pain will subside and true personal growth will begin.

WantLove,<BR>I'm not the WS, but I'd like to answer your questions. I appreciate your forthrightness, and honesty. It sounds like you and OW are both feeling the guilt of an A. That's good! That is what has kept you from taking it to another level.<P>In my own situation, I feel like my H went through the same things...I remember times when he seemed like he was being "tormented" over - something. I didn't know what. Now I suspect what it was, his decision to go for A.<P>The advice you have been given (about staying away from OW) is good. Time away will eventually lessen the pain, it will just take time.<P>What i would like to address is your W's seeming "indifference" to the problems you mention. I know, as a BS, that IF my H was trying to tell me things were NOT good, <B> I didn't hear it!</B> Please, PLEASE, take her by the hand, SIT HER DOWN, shout, scream, whatever it takes, to let her know what you are thinking, and what has happened. Believe me, SHE DOESN'T GET IT!! She isn't hearing you....it's not from lack of trying on your part. I don't know why she doesn't hear it...maybe she's fooling herself, and thinking "everything's OK" or "He'd never do anything like that..."<P>I did. I believed I had the "perfect" H. And I did/do. The problem is that he WAS feeling very neglected/unloved. OW came along and filled those needs. I didn't HEAR him telling me he was feeling that way. I didn't hear him telling me that another woman was showing an interest in him, and filling needs where I wasn't. He DID try to tell me. I didn't think it was a serious problem, cause I trusted him. BUT a person can only "deny" themselves for so long. He believed that I didn't care, since I didn't listen to him tell me someone else was "interested" in him. You know what happened next.<P>My suggestion is that you show your W your post here. She HAS to know the seriousness of the measure of your marital problems, in order to get her attention. She WILL wake up, IF she believes there is a serious problem.<P>Good luck to you both. I applaud your efforts to save your M. You CAN succeed if you can get your W on the same page with you!<P>God Bless,<BR>Lupo

First of all I want to thank each of you for answering my question. Marissa and FaithHopeLove asked a few questions I thought I would answer and then add a few more comments.<P><B> Marissa<BR>What needs was she filling that your wife can't/won't? I'd say conversation was at least one of them. Why won't she read the book? Why is she refusing counseling?</B><P>After reading the book His Needs - Her needs I have determined that my most important needs are:<BR>1. Sexual fulfillment<BR>2. Affection<BR>3. Recreational Companionship<BR>4. Attractive spouse<BR>5. Domestic support<BR>6. Admiration<P>The needs that my friend has been meeting has been Admiration and non physical affection. I very much enjoyed the praise and complements that the OW would give me that I never got at home. Both Marissa and FaithHopeLove have both suggested that the OW was meeting a need for conversation. I hadn&#8217;t really thought about that but I believe you are both correct. Through hundreds of pages of e-mail and other conversations we have gotten to know each other fairly well. I sometimes felt like the OW knew and understood me better than my wife. Some of the other needs I felt could potentially be fulfilled. In our conversations we discovered that we both had a strong need for Sexual fulfillment that was not being met. The OW is very beautiful, slim and shapely. My wife is not. We would both mention recreation that we wished we could participate in and our frustrations that we didn&#8217;t have someone to do them with. i.e. I mentioned a particular recreation to my wife once and she told me that she had no desire. I mentioned it once to the OW and she told me how fun it sounded. In fact recreation is a real problem with my wife. She has no interest and resents the time and money it takes for my interests that I have developed over the last few years.<P><B> Why won't she read the book? Why is she refusing counseling?</B><P>When I brought home the book &#8220;His Needs - Her Needs&#8221; I tried to present the idea of reading it so that we could both learn how to meet each others needs better. I guess I did a poor job of presenting the idea because she recently referred to the book as &#8220;His Needs&#8221;. I did come home one day and found her reading the chapter on Attractive spouse. She was very offended, said it was one of the most selfish things she has ever read and threw the book on the floor. She also doesn&#8217;t hold a lot of faith in a book that is not written by a member of the church we go to. I tried to explain that the author seems to have strong Christian values but it didn&#8217;t help. <BR>We have gone to counseling before and it makes her very uncomfortable when the counselor tries to get her to make changes. She recently told me that she doesn&#8217;t like going because we get feeling good about each other and then the counselor &#8220;has to dig up dirt and we go home feeling bad&#8221;. <P><B> FaithHopeLove asked:<P>Now back to your wife. She actually says she refuses to read the book or go to counseling? If so, what reason does she state? Why does she think you go to counseling? Does she know about your relationship with the OW or your feelings for the OW?</B><P>I addressed the questions about counseling and reading &#8220;His needs - Her needs&#8221; when I responded to Marissa&#8217;s questions. <P><B> Why does she think you go to counseling? </B><P>I have told her that I am going to try to learn how to make our marriage better. While I admit that I have talked about the OW with the counselor most of our discussions have been on trying to make my marriage better.<P><B> Does she know about your relationship with the OW or your feelings for the OW?</B><P>She knows we are good friends and she has become very jealous of the OW. She has forbidden me to talk to her. No she doesn&#8217;t know the extent of what our friendship has been or what my feelings are for the OW. I have to admit that I have very mixed feelings about radical honesty. If I tell her about my feelings for OW my wife would be very angry. Also OW woman is or at least was a friend until my wife became suspicious. Also OW attends the same church that we do. I don&#8217;t want to cause problems for OW. Maybe what I need to do is tell my wife that because she doesn&#8217;t meet my needs I have a tendency to be attracted to other women. What do you think?<P><B> It sounds like your friend meets a need for conversation and maybe non physical affection and maybe most of all admiration. Is that about right? If so, would it be fair to say your wife does not meet these needs to your satisfaction? In your own opinion, what could she do differently so those needs (or others) are met? </B><P>Wow you pegged the admiration and non physical affection. As mentioned above I think you are correct about the need for conversation. I have come to realize that this is a need I may have that I didn&#8217;t realize I had. During the first few months of EA with OW she would ask me all sorts of questions about my interests, past, likes dislikes etc. I did the same. I wanted to know everything I could about OW. One of the things that made me think that maybe I do have a need for conversation was something that happened yesterday. I very seldom go home for lunch but yesterday I needed to go home and get a bill that needed to be paid. When I got home my wife was on the phone talking to her mother. I decided to fix myself some lunch while I was home. In fact my wife fixed her some lunch while she was talking on the phone. We both sat down, I ate my lunch and she continued to talk to her mother while her lunch got cold. I kept thinking &#8220;why don&#8217;t you hang up the phone and talk to me since I am home?&#8221; I finished my lunch said goodby and left. She stopped long enough to give me a tiny kiss (which is another thing I am not happy about. I wish she would give be bigger kisses). I started back to work and noticed a female neighbor of ours working in her yard. I stopped to talk to her for about 15 minutes. During the conversation she praised me for my interest in exercise and encouraged me to continue. I realize that &#8220;love units&#8221; were deposited into my neighbors love bank account because of conversation, admiration and because she is physically attractive. While my wife had &#8220;love units&#8221; withdrawn because of her indifference to me being at home. By the way I knew my wife wasn&#8217;t feeling good yesterday so on my way home for lunch I stopped and bought her some flowers. I will admit that when I gave them to her she stopped her conversation long enough to give me a nice kiss.<BR>Now the second part of the questions: <B> would it be fair to say your wife does not meet these needs to your satisfaction? In your own opinion, what could she do differently so those needs (or others) are met? </B><P>Yes I would say that my wife doesn&#8217;t meet my needs of conversation, affection and admiration. In addition to that she DOESN&#8217;T MEET ANY of my needs very well. When I read the book His Needs - Her Needs I became very frustrated and thought no wonder I am not very happy in my marriage. My wife feels like the book gave me more things to complain about. But in my mind it validated my frustrations.<BR>Once again my needs are:<BR>1. Sexual fulfillment - This is a major problem in our marriage. She is &#8220;willing&#8221; once or twice a week but doesn&#8217;t understand that if she is not a enthusiastic aroused partner then I am not sexually fulfilled. She seems to think that if I have an orgasm I should be fulfilled.<BR>2. Affection - Very seldom does she come up to me and give me a kiss or hug. I very seldom get gifts or other tokens of affection. Somebody at work had a birthday today and there are balloons in his office. She has never done anything like that.<BR>3. Recreational Companionship - A BIG NO. In fact she resents the time and money spent on my recreation interests.<BR>4. Attractive spouse - She has gained a lot of weight over the years and she doesn&#8217;t change her eating habits and NEVER exercises. <BR>5. Domestic support - The house is a mess. Yes I do help.<BR>6. Admiration - Very seldom<P><B> I'm guessing you and your wife are different personality types. Have you explored your types and understand, even appreciate the differences? This link may help if you are interested: <A HREF="http://www.personalitytype.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.personalitytype.com/</A> </B><P>I have talked about personality types a little with my counselor but not in depth.<P><B> How have you tried to find out your wife's needs? If you are not doing a very good job meeting them, why is that? What specifically could you do better? What impact do you think meeting her needs would have on your marriage?</B><P>Yes I have tried to find out what my wife&#8217;s needs are. When I brought the book His Needs - Her Needs I asked her what her needs are. She gave me the following list in May.<BR>1. No more arguing about intimacy. <BR>2. Show appreciation for me.<BR>3. Participate in things that would help bring spirituality into our home.<BR>4. Talk with me<BR>5. Don&#8217;t get mad because things aren&#8217;t done when and how you&#8217;d like.<BR>6. Be willing to give me a back rub without expecting sex in return.<P>From His Needs - Her Needs I believe her needs would be:<BR>1. Conversation<BR>2. Family Commitment<BR>3. Financial Support<BR>4. Companionship - This isn&#8217;t really in the book that I remember but Recreation Companionship is. I just removed the recreation part. She likes me to do things with her. One of her favorite things is the Theater. I have spent over a thousand dollars a year for the past five years meeting this need. We also go away for three days each year to a festival of 6 plays. I sometimes feel like she doesn&#8217;t count my effort doing this because I enjoy it also.<P>I have tried to work on each one of them. For awhile I felt like things were better between us, but I feel like she has stopped trying. This is a typical pattern, meeting her needs works for awhile and then her responding to my needs dies off. I then ask her why and then I get a new list of things I am doing wrong.<P>Interesting thing about Conversation is she tells me that is one of her biggest needs but she very seldom acts like she is in the mood to just talk. We don&#8217;t talk much because we don&#8217;t have a lot of common interests. This is going to sound terrible but frankly I find her boring most of the time.<P>lupolady said:<P><B> What i would like to address is your W's seeming "indifference" to the problems you mention. I know, as a BS, that IF my H was trying to tell me things were NOT good, I didn't hear it! Please, PLEASE, take her by the hand, SIT HER DOWN, shout, scream, whatever it takes, to let her know what you are thinking, and what has happened. Believe me, SHE DOESN'T GET IT!! She isn't hearing you....it's not from lack of trying on your part. I don't know why she doesn't hear it...maybe she's fooling herself, and thinking "everything's OK" or "He'd never do anything like that..." </B><P>Your words really jumped out at me. You are right SHE DOESN'T GET IT!! This is so frustrating. I have tried everything I could think of during the last 22 years. I have begged, I have threatened to divorce her twice, I have bent over backwards trying to met her needs, I have ignored the problem, tried to talk to her, gone to counseling with her three different time periods. etc. I am currently going to counseling alone because she refuses to go. Sometimes I feel like I must be the most selfish husband on the planet. I don&#8217;t know how to help her understand how frustrated I am. If I had the strength and courage to leave I would but I haven&#8217;t. I have the typical reasons. I don&#8217;t want to hurt her or my children. I don&#8217;t want the financial burden. Divorce is supposed to be wrong. I am afraid I wouldn&#8217;t find someone I could be happy with. I admit that with my EA I was looking for a sure thing.<P>I admit that I am a little gun shy about being radically honest with my wife because when I have tried to express my feelings she tells me that I am having a mid life crisis and to grow up. She also gets very angry and upset at me when I complain too often. Her favorite words are &#8220;I am who I am, please stop making me feel as if I must change.&#8221;<P>Back to my original question of &#8220;How do I get over emotional attachment to OW in EA&#8221; I really do know that time will help but it is difficult. I am very flattered that a beautiful OW cared for me and has met some of my emotional needs. I feel like a hungry man looking at a huge banquet of wonderful food. I am then told that my meal is at the other table that has a single slice of bread with a glass of water. It is kind of hard to give up the fantasy. I know I know the grass is always greener on the other side. I know that the OW has problems and faults also and I am probably seeing only the good. I also know that my wife has a lot of good qualities that I don&#8217;t see as well as I should. If OW (or any other woman) came to me and said she wanted me to leave my wife for her it would be so easy to do so.<P>How do I stop missing OW? <BR>Is there anyway to help my wife understand the seriousness of my frustrations? <BR>Do I quit trying to tell her how frustrated I am, keep trying to meet her needs and enjoy the few bread crumbs I get? <BR>(Or am I the worlds most selfish husband?)

<B>I feel like a hungry man looking at a huge banquet of wonderful food. I am then told that my meal is at the other table that has a single slice of bread with a glass of water. It is kind of hard to give up the fantasy</B><P>Boy! this just jumped out at me. It sounds almost as if it is straight out of a book I read over the summer...<I>The Mastery of Love</I>by don Miguel Ruiz.<P>Your perception is your reality.<P>My H told me that he had been telling me for years that we had problems, but I didn't listen...well, he must have been whispering...cause I honestly don't remember him saying anything...<P>Now he is angry because I am changing before his eyes...he said, after d-day..."why did I have to do this heinous thing for you to change?" Bottom line...I don't know...<P>The point is a decision has to be made...you need to sit your wife down and be RADICALLY HONEST with her...no [censored]-footing around...let her know just how serious you are...and NO LOVEBUSTING either...<P>and you have to decide to repair your relationship...or not...I wish this had happened to me before EA became PA...because my sticking point is that I have never been with another man...EVER...he had plenty before me and now has had one after...IT HURTS EVERYDAY...<P>Please make a decision...<P>Cali

Hi WL,<P>I am a BS. My H sounded much like you. Except in our case, the OW said the words to send H home but her actions were pulling him back. <P>Yes, my H was weak, very weak. Still is but appears to be getting stronger. A lot of what you mentioned could easily fit my H. His need to have his ego stroked was filled big time by OW. She said everything he wanted to hear and then some. Yes, he did long for her so much so that he did not see her faults. He thought he did but now he knows better. <P>See this OW said all the sweet words to H. To the rest of the world, her true colors showed. She was not the nice sweet person to others. Especially not me. How could my H go with a Jekyl and Hyde personality? Well, his ENs were met by this OW and even though she had some major character flaws he refused to see it. <P>That was dangerous. I mention this so that you can see there are 2 sides to every account and view. You say your W is jealous. Have you asked her what it is that makes her jealous? I was jealous. Not because I even knew what OW looked like. Just because she worked so hard to take H away from his family and make him want to leave his family. <P>I know you feel that you have spent much time dealing wtih your W. I respectfully ask you, why is your W so relunctant to meet your needs? Is she overworked, tired, suffering from an illness? Is there a reason, maybe even despression? Was she always like this? Could she be going through a change? Is there medical reason?<P>These are just questions for you to ponder over. You do not need to answer if it makes you uncomfortable. <P>But it is commendable that you are here seeking help. <P>My take on the OW in your case may be a bit different from the others. Could be because I have dealt with such a nut case of an OW. <P>So pardon my bias but the OW may be using reverse psycology on you. Some like to be pursued and chased. See the OW in our case was and is such a character. Then in her feable mind she uses these instances to bait and chase H then say that H is pursuing her. <P>Yes, my H did persue the OW and visa versa. But OW also planned a lot of it. How do I know. I am a woman. I have read the many e-mails and can easily see her thought pattern. During these times as hard as it was for me, I tried to let my H (ws at the time) see how she was misleading him. H would not admit it. In fact he claimed he was in full control and actively pursuing OW. She was and is very convincing. An example is her 3 pregnancy claims. No baby or proof of pregnancy was ever produced. You have no idea where those threats of hers did to us. We lived in terror for months. <P>The OWs dubbed name: Mrs. Psyco Babble Rabbit. <P>Is this cruel? Well in my case each name has been earned by the OW. <P>Now mind you, this OW sounded at the beginning much like yours. I am not saying yours is a bad as the one we dealt with, but you never know. In the meantime study up on what it take to rebuild your marriage. If your W is not willing to participate you plan A her. Meet with Steve Harley, he can give you some good pointers. <P>We offer a welcome packag here. Have you already been given one? If not, one of us can provide a copy. It is real helpful in letting you know the best way to take advantage of the tools offered here. <P>Welcome to Marriage Builders. <P>L.

I love that analogy about the banquet and the single slice of bread!!! I had never heard it before...lovely [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img].<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I feel like a hungry man looking at a huge banquet of wonderful food. I am then told that my meal is at the other table that has a single slice of bread with a glass of water. It is kind of hard to give up the fantasy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>And, I'm certain my H "saw" me as the slice of bread and the water. Because, this is what he chose to "see".<P>But, I challenge you to look harder at that glass of water and bread and what they also symbolize: life sustaining "basics"...simplicity...easy to digest...clean and pure. <P>And, take a second look at the banquet <B>(everything available EXCEPT you have no bread and no water)</B>: At first it's a dream come true. LUCKY YOU. You have never been so fulfilled. And you indulge yourself. Infact, you gorge. After a while, it becomes overwhelming. Too much! High in calories, high in fat. You can't stick it in your back pocket and jog off to your soccer game--Nope...you're required to sit down to feast. Continued overindulgence surely leads to cramps, bloating, weight gain. You begin to crave simple bread and water. Sure, you have lots to drink: wine, soda, juice, milk, beer. Lots to eat: donuts, steaks, biscuits, croissants, peanutbutter, tomato, bacon, mayo-- but no bread!!! OH MY-- how are you gonna make that BLT [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ??? How are you gonna cleanse your pallet after months of feasting with NO WATER????<P>Trust me, after a while (sure it may take years) of feasting on steak and wine, you WILL DESIRE a simple glass of water and a single slice of bread.<P>There is a certain purity to crisp, clear water.<P>There is a certain satisfaction that comes from savoring a piece of soft, warm, sweetly scented, fresh baked bread. Ummm...yummmy.<P><B><I>Why does it seem "second nature" for humans to always want what they don't have?</B></I><P>I also have a favorite quote that I'd love to share with everyone here:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Happiness is not getting what you want, <I>it is wanting what you have.</I></B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>IMHO, you are both at a stalemate of sorts within your marriage. Give your wife another chance. This time, BE MORE BOLD. Tell her that you NEED for her to participate more in the marriage. Tell her that you FEAR for your marriage. Tell her that you are OPEN to exploring new recreational activities (DO THE ACTIVITIES QUESTIONNAIRE FROM THIS WEBSITE)-- it allows you to PICK ACTIVITIES that you will both find rewarding. Pin/tape HER LIST OF NEEDS up on your bedroom mirror-- AND MEET THEM... this will SHOW HER THAT you are taking an interest in HER. Remember: the better you become at meeting her needs, the more willing she will become at meeting yours.<P>And, if I may say so, after reading what your wife wanted and then reading what you interpreted her needs to be, I SAW SOME CONFLICTS. Perhaps you should clarify with your wife what exactly she needs. I made a HUGE mistake in assuming that I knew what my H wanted/needed. Remember to ask each other how each of you did in meeting each other's needs throughout the week.<P>Really, really try to do the 15hrs of together time (no outside interruptions). Remind her of what's possible: A REWARDING MARRIAGE FOR BOTH OF YOU. <P>Learn to savor the slice of bread and cool, crisp pureness of crystal clear water. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <P>Peace to you and your wife! ~Marie<p>[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]

Hi Want Love,<BR>I'm so glad you came on here before doing anything physical. I can totally relate to what you are writing and how you feel. My marriage was in the same boat. I would talk and rant and rave about things to my H, but he never heard me. It wasn't until I actually had an A, that he saw how serious I was about the things that had to change. <BR>And by that time, I was very much in love with the OM who met all my needs. In fact, I really wanted to end my marriage to be with the OM. All of this is on here as I wrote for advice, first to find justification to end my marriage and then to find ways to put it back together.<BR>I feel I was lucky that my H worked on changing. And he did a pretty good job, but first I had to be radically honest.<BR>You must find the courage to do the same thing. You must allow your W to see how hurt you are, how frustrated you are that she isn't trying to meet your needs, and how much you want the marriage to work.<P>I think it would be a mistake to bring the OW into the picture any more than she is especially since she has cut off all contact with you. If you already can imagine how your W would react to her at church, then don't do that part. This is basically between you and your W trying to get your marriage back on track.<P>As for getting over the OW, it will be tough since you see her at church and around town.<BR>I still have a hard time. I have finally realized that I can love two men at the same time and that is not what God intended marriage to be. So I chose to give up the OM. It has been 7 months and sometimes I still have very very strong longings for him.<BR>But I try to not give in to those urges and then dwell on my H and his love for me.<P>Our recovery is going well, but it has now come to an impass. This is where we started.<BR>He's busy and I'm alone. He goes off to see friends and I go to work. On my days off he has things planned that don't include me. Or are things that I don't like to do. But I try. And it starts the cycle again. On the surface, things look good. But underneath,<BR>I find I'm hurting again. And wonder how often do I have to tell him. How long do I have to sound like that nagging complaining W. I don't want him to worry that I'll cross that line again because it's not worth it. <P>So please, don't cross that line. First decide what to do with your marriage. Make sure your marriage works or fails because of the two of you and not some outside force.<P>I think I'm rambling on here and I'm sorry about that. This is the first time I've actually admitted to myself that this recovery is going thru a hard spot and my H doesn't even notice. And I'm not sure how much a FWS should vent on here. It's scary to tell these things. <P>Keep up the counseling even if only for yourself. YOu have come to the right place for help. Do you think your W would be interested in reading the articles from here?<P>Debbie

Want Love - You say your needs are: 1. Sexual fulfillment<BR> 2. Affection<BR> 3. Recreational Companionship<BR> 4. Attractive spouse<BR> 5. Domestic support<BR> 6. Admiration<BR>and that OW was meeting #2 and #6. She was also meeting #3, IMO, as I feel conversation is a BIG part of RC. It is a big part of connecting to another person. That whole 'getting to know' another person.<BR>What type of praise and compliments were you getting from OW that you were not getting at home? In your opinion, what needs to be done for you to have SF with your wife? Not to be nosy, but is it frequency, quality, lack of desire because she is not fulfilling your need for an attractive spouse? Was it always this way? <BR>You said "We would both mention recreation that we wished we could participate in and our frustrations that we didn’t have someone to do them with." What types of recreation? Could you join a club for this and meet other (male) participants? You say your wife had no desire to participate and resents the time/money it takes. My H loves golf. I couldn't care less, have no interest, and yes I think it's an expensive hobby. I don't mind if he plays though. He makes sure it doesn't take time away from us, and doesn't insist on my participation. It's something he enjoys doing, so why shouldn't he do it? He did however join a bowling league with me so that we have a shared activity. <BR> <BR>I can see where she might be somewhat offended by HNHN, I haven't read all of it but when I read the beginning I thought it was very much from a male point of view and was not too happy. Dr Harley makes some generalizations about male/female needs that I felt were way off base for me personally.<BR>Why do you feel she is not attractive to you? If it is a weight issue, she prob doesn't feel very good about it either, and is defensive about it. <BR>I can't help you on the church issue. Maybe you can direct her to this site, there are many Christians here who truly believe that MB works. Maybe if one of them talks to her? I'm not Christian so I don't know what to say, but I think it helps to know there are other people out there going thru the same things.<P>What type of counseling have you been to? Does your wife not like being wrong? or being told that she's wrong? I can understand the conflict avoidance issues, but as Abandoned Dad reminded me the other day- conflict is the only way to resolution. You have to get to the problem in order to find a solution. That is what the counselor is for. To help identify the problem and suggest/mediate possible solutions. (I hated counseling too, but of course I was the WS) <P>You said "She knows we are good friends and she has become very jealous of the OW. She has forbidden me to talk to her. No she doesn’t know the extent of what our friendship has been or what my feelings are for the OW."<P>Then she is more than jealous I would say. She may not know exactly what is going on, but she is more than aware that there is a problem and she feels threatened by OW.<P>You said "I have to admit that I have very mixed feelings about radical honesty. If I tell her about my feelings for OW my wife would be very angry."<P>I'm going to have to say 'so what' to this. She will be angry. And? Maybe that will give her the kick in the pants she needs to work on your marriage. I'm not sure about radical honesty here either, remember I'm the WS, but you need to let her know she is in a real danger of losing you if she will not participate in the healing of your marriage. I can understand not wanting to damage OW especially since this was an EA only, and apparently somewhat onesided (lopsided?) but you need to make an undeniable statement to your wife about the state of your relationship. <BR> <P>1. SF - She is “willing” once or twice a week but doesn’t understand that if she is not a enthusiastic aroused partner then I am not sexually fulfilled. She seems to think that if I have an orgasm I should be fulfilled.<P>This takes 2. Can you work on getting her to 'enthousiastic'? What would that take? Will she tell you?<P>2. Affection - Very seldom does she come up to me and give me a kiss or hug. I very seldom get gifts or other tokens of affection. Somebody at work had a birthday today and there are balloons in his office. She has never done anything like that.<P>Personality issue. Some people are more physically affectionate than others. How do you react when she tries? As for gifts, my H stopped giving them because I was always finding some fault with them. Wrong flowers, wrong color, etc. I thought he should 'know'. And maybe he should have, but I wasn't getting where I wanted to go by taking the direction I was headed in. <P>3. Recreational Companionship - A BIG NO. In fact she resents the time and money spent on my recreation interests.<P>There must be something you can do together! Play a board game, garden, go for a walk and look at the trees changing color?<P>4. Attractive spouse - She has gained a lot of weight over the years and she doesn’t change her eating habits and NEVER exercises.<P>How have you expressed your dismay re this? I doubt that it doesn't bother her, but it may be a case of her feeling that you 'should love her no matter what'.<BR> <BR>5. Domestic support - The house is a mess. Yes I do help.<P>My house is a mess too. H is getting much better at helping me with this! We are both packrats. I don't know if we'll ever get rid of all the clutter. but it's not really dirty, just messy. Know your own tolerance level for mess. Express your needs in terms that are not derogatory to her. Can you afford a cleaning service? Does your wife work outside the home?<P>6. Admiration - Very seldom<P>What do you feel is admiration? Some people have diferent definitions of this. <P><BR>You said your wife gave you this list of needs. She's not making it easy for you is she. (easy would be fitting her needs into the categories from the book) Here are my guesses:<P>1. No more arguing about intimacy. <BR>-No more LBs, disrespectful judgements and/or angry outbursts about your dissatisfaction with SF.<P>2. Show appreciation for me.<BR>-Admiration.<BR> <BR>3. Participate in things that would help bring spirituality into our home.<BR>-Family commitment? Community involvement?<P>4. Talk with me<BR>-Conversation/Companionship<P>5. Don’t get mad because things aren’t done when and how you’d like.<BR>-Domestic support? Acceptance of differing styles/timetables?<P>6. Be willing to give me a back rub without expecting sex in return.<BR>-Affection. 'no-strings' comes to mind here. Does she feel pressure to reciprocate physical affection?<P>You said you translated this into: 1. Conversation<BR> 2. Family Commitment<BR> 3. Financial Support<BR> 4. Companionship<P>I don't know where #3 came from. It may be a need, I just don't see it in her list. And I think you missed admiration big time.<P>You said "I have tried to work on each one of them. For awhile I felt like things were better between us, but I feel like she has stopped trying. This is a typical pattern, meeting her needs works for awhile and then her responding to my needs dies off."<P>Does she feel the same way? I wonder if you each get to a point of complacency and then sink back into not working as hard on meeting each others needs. And remember needs change! <P>You said "Interesting thing about Conversation is she tells me that is one of her biggest needs but she very seldom acts like she is in the mood to just talk. We don’t talk much because we don’t have a lot of common interests. This is going to sound terrible but frankly I find her boring most of the time."<P>I know how you feel. H and I have this problem as well. Sometimes I think I hide because I anticipate that conversation isn't going to go anywhere so I don't give it much of a chance. We don't have much in common anymore either, and my H can come off as *extremely* pedantic to me. Plus he is into the news and politics and he sometimes says he can see my eyes glazing over. <P>Back to my original question of “How do I get over emotional attachment to OW in EA” I really do know that time will help but it is difficult. <BR>-Nothing worth doing is ever easy?<P>How do I stop missing OW?<BR>-They say to think of your wife whenever you start thinking about OW.<P>Is there anyway to help my wife understand the seriousness of my frustrations? <BR>-I don't know... is there a Plan B for WSs with recalcitrant spouses?<P>Do I quit trying to tell her how frustrated I am, keep trying to meet her needs and enjoy the few bread crumbs I get? <BR>-No. I don't believe God put us on earth to be miserable. (And I can't imagine that your wife is all that happy either.)<P>Or am I the worlds most selfish husband?)<BR>-No I don't think you are selfish. You are trying to be happy. You voluntarily caught it before it went into total insanity. But you deserve to be happy.

I'm so sorry that was so long! (oops)

Only have a few minute.<P>Thank you for taking all that time to answer questions. It seems you really want this all to work out, and believe me that is one huge step. Some people never get that far.<P>I agree with Marissa that you are missing your wife's need for admiration big time. I think the list she gave you, while not MB terms, is very valuable information.<BR>1. No more arguing about intimacy.<BR><B>Please find a better way to communicate and express your needs. I feel scared, vunerable and threatened.</B><BR>2. Show appreciation for me.<BR><B> I need to know I matter and that you see some good within me. I'm feeling lonely and hurt. </B><BR>3. Participate in things that would help bring spirituality into our home.<BR><B> I would like you to be the spiritual leader in our home. I want to respect you. I can sense that you are distanced from God right now, and I think our family needs to come together and seek God's help and healing. </B><BR>4. Talk with me<BR><B> Listen to me. Share yourself with me. You seem restless and guarded and it makes me feel ill at ease and powerless. </B><BR>5. Don&#8217;t get mad because things aren&#8217;t done when and how you&#8217;d like.<BR><B> Be kind in your thoughts toward me. Please you a nice tone of voice. I'm trying my hardest, but it never seems like it is enough or I am good enough. It makes me sad and defeated and makes me lose even more energy. </B><BR>6. Be willing to give me a back rub without expecting sex in return.<BR><B> I feel love through affection, but I am not feeling very sexual right now. I want to know I can relax with you and you are willing to give without expectation sometimes. </B><P>I understand it seems like your wife isn't willing enough to change. And of course that is a legitimate problem. But I think she is acting more out of fear and sadness and defensiveness right now, than out of malice, laziness or stubborness.<P>She may need to feel secure first. Although it would be great is she was willing to do MB or anything, there is much you can do alone. Remember even if one spouse changes, it significantly impacts the relationship.<P>I could be wrong, but I think her plea for spirituality in the home is big for her. If you lead, by being open to changing your own heart and renewing yourself, she might be much more willing to follow your example. Right now, you want her to change, and you are attempting to meet her needs, but really deep down, for your own gain.<P>If you take some time to just get your own self together and be willing to give for the sake of giving, you might see a more willing spouse. You might want to check out Plan A and use it on your wife.<P>What do you think?

Once again I want to thank each one of you for everything you have said. It really helps to know that I have a place to go to &#8220;talk&#8221; and get help and advice.<P><B> Orchid questions:<BR>I know you feel that you have spent much time dealing with your W. I respectfully ask you, why is your W so reluctant to meet your needs? Is she overworked, tired, suffering from an illness? Is there a reason, maybe even depression? Was she always like this? Could she be going through a change? Is there medical reason?</B><P>I guess there are two reasons why she is reluctant to meet my needs. 1. She tells me that I am not meeting her needs. I get a list of her needs and work on them and then nothing changes on her part, I ask her why and she then gives me a new list. I guess I don&#8217;t do a very good job of meeting her needs. 2. She doesn&#8217;t understand how important it is to me that my needs are met. I believe she thinks I should be happy with what I have and that I am very selfish for wanting my needs met. She tells me I am having a mid life crisis and I need to grow up. If sitting around the house and doing nothing is grown up then I don&#8217;t want to grow up!<P>No she is not overworked. She works part time, no more than 15 hours a week. Yes depression is a major problem. Yes she has been to the doctor and has taken anti-depressants with very little results. Yes she has always been like this.<P><B> Marissa questions:</B> <P><B> What type of praise and compliments were you getting from OW that you were not getting at home? </B><P>This was a big one. She would tell me how much she admired me for keeping in shape, reading self improvements books, how handsome I am, how intelligent I am, how much she admired the career I have, how much she like the way I thought about things, she liked the same music I do, even that I was trying to work on my marriage, etc. Actually she laid it on pretty thick and I loved it. I get very little praise at home. I told my wife that this is a need but it doesn&#8217;t happen.<P><B> In your opinion, what needs to be done for you to have SF with your wife? Not to be nosy, but is it frequency, quality, lack of desire because she is not fulfilling your need for an attractive spouse? Was it always this way? </B> <P>It is both frequency and quality. My biggest complaint is quality. It is very difficult to be fulfilled when she is not aroused very often. We have talked about this a lot to the point it is a sore spot. She simply doesn&#8217;t understand that for me to be fulfilled I need to know that she is enjoying herself also. I feel like most of the time it is one of her chores she has to get done. She is offended that I am not happy with her being &#8220;willing&#8221; to participate. She feels like I should be satisfied with what she is offering. <P><B> What types of recreation? Could you join a club for this and meet other (male) participants? </B> <P>I enjoy cycling and roller blading. I would like to do more outdoor activities such as hiking and canoeing. She will go camping with me and our children but she stays at the campsite while me and the kids are out hiking etc. This one is also very frustrating. I admit that until a few years ago I wasn&#8217;t very active either and she resents the time and money I spend. As an experiment I tried for a month to ask her each Sunday if she would like to go on a walk with me Sunday afternoon. Each time the request was refused. I do have a male friend I go cycling with once in awhile. I also have a female friend that I go roller blading with every few weeks. I know Danger Danger right? I have to admit that I get a little frustrated with this idea of not doing things with members of the apposite sex other than my wife. Can&#8217;t I have female friends? Especially when my wife doesn&#8217;t want to do much with me?<P><BR><B> Why do you feel she is not attractive to you? If it is a weight issue, she prob doesn't feel very good about it either, and is defensive about it. </B> <P>Yes, it is mostly a weight issue. And yes she is VERY defensive about it. The frustrating thing is that she doesn&#8217;t seem to make much of an effort to make a change. She doesn&#8217;t change her eating habits and she doesn&#8217;t exercise. <BR> <BR>A pretty shapely woman wearing perfume causes me to melt right on the spot!!!!! My wife will not wear perfume because she claims it bother her sinuses. <P><B> What type of counseling have you been to? </B> <P>I am not sure what you mean by asking &#8220;What type of counseling have you been to?&#8221; Several years ago we went to group counseling. Two different time periods in the last ten years we went to &#8220;Marriage counseling&#8221;. The last time we went together was about four years ago. When we have gone to counseling together. The counselor would spend the first couple of sessions getting to know us and our issues. He then started making suggestions for me to change some of my behaviors. I tried to do so. When he started making suggestions to my wife to change some of her behaviors she went for a couple of times and then refused to continue. <P><B> Does your wife not like being wrong? or being told that she's wrong? I can understand the conflict avoidance issues, but as Abandoned Dad reminded me the other day- conflict is the only way to resolution. You have to get to the problem in order to find a solution. That is what the counselor is for.</B> <P>You hit the nail squarely on the head with these questions! No she doesn&#8217;t like being wrong or told that she is wrong! She has a very difficult time EVER admitting that she is wrong. I suspect I could count on one hand (OK maybe two) the number times in the last 22 years that I have ever heard the words &#8220;I am sorry&#8221;. You are right she doesn&#8217;t like conflict. I have asked her to join me in going to the counselor that I am currently going to and she refuses. She said &#8220;we get feeling good about each other and our relationship and then the counselor digs up dirt and we go home upset&#8221;. I really do believe what she really wants is to be 100 percent accepted the way she is without having to make very few changes. <P><B> She may not know exactly what is going on, but she is more than aware that there is a problem and she feels threatened by OW.</B> <P>I am sure you are correct. I have a question for you. If she feels so threatened why doesn&#8217;t she try harder to work with me on making our marriage better?<P><B> You said "I have to admit that I have very mixed feelings about radical honesty. If I tell her about my feelings for OW my wife would be very angry." I'm going to have to say 'so what' to this. She will be angry. And? Maybe that will give her the kick in the pants she needs to work on your marriage.</B> <P>I have been thinking about this one a lot lately. lupolady said: <B> Please, PLEASE, take her by the hand, SIT HER DOWN, shout, scream, whatever it takes, to let her know what you are thinking, and what has happened. Believe me, SHE DOESN'T GET IT!! She isn't hearing you....it's not from lack of trying on your part. I don't know why she doesn't hear it...maybe she's fooling herself, and thinking "everything's OK" or "He'd never do anything like that..."</B> No she doesn&#8217;t get it! May of this year I was radically honest with her. I sat down with her and told her how frustrated I was with our marriage. I went over each and everyone of my needs I have listed in this post. I even told her that I didn&#8217;t want to have our marriage continue the way it is. I told her that we either needed to make changes or we needed to divorce. When I talked with her I tried very hard to not be angry. I told her what I needed to be happy. While I admit that we both tried harder for a few months I really feel like she has slipped back into her old ways. No I have not told her about EA with OW. <P><B> 1. SF - She is &#8220;willing&#8221; once or twice a week but doesn&#8217;t understand that if she is not a enthusiastic aroused partner then I am not sexually fulfilled. <P>She seems to think that if I have an orgasm I should be fulfilled. This takes 2. Can you work on getting her to 'enthusiasm'? What would that take? Will she tell you?</B> <P>This one item is so frustrating to me. I guess I am like most men and if I could figure out a way for this need to be met better I would be much happier. A few months ago she told me that she went to the book store and looked at a couple of books that talked about how to improve sex in your marriage. She even brought home a book called &#8220;101 Nights of Grrreat Sex : Secret Sealed Seductions for Fun Loving Couples&#8221;. I have to admit I was pretty thrilled. I did a couple of the seductions and she seemed to enjoy them. I was disappointed that she never did any of them and I asked her about it and she said that she bought the book to get some ideas. However she read two or three of them and now the book just sits.<BR>The way you ask your questions is interesting. I have been concentrating on my unmet sexual needs without much thought to her unmet sexual needs. I know I get very frustrated when she doesn&#8217;t have or even desire an orgasm very often. I really would like to figure out a way to help her be more enthusiastic and to help her know that she needs to be enthusiastic and enjoy herself for me to be sexually fulfilled.<BR>I read some of the posts on the forum written by women such as ohmy_marie&#8217;s &#8220;Sex, fantasies, and "role playing": Q for the guys...&#8221; and I think I would give anything to have my wife take more of an interest.<BR>This is a situation that the OW in my EA had also. She would describe to me how frustrated she was and what she would do to get her husband to take more of an interest. I couldn&#8217;t help thinking the guy was a complete idiot to have a beautiful sensual wife and not want her!<P><B> 2. Affection - Very seldom does she come up to me and give me a kiss or hug. I very seldom get gifts or other tokens of affection. Somebody at work had a birthday today and there are balloons in his office. She has never done anything like that.<P>Personality issue. Some people are more physically affectionate than others. How do you react when she tries?</B> <P>I enjoy it and let her know that I appreciate it.<P><B> 3. Recreational Companionship - A BIG NO. In fact she resents the time and money spent on my recreation interests.<P>There must be something you can do together! Play a board game, garden, go for a walk and look at the trees changing color?</B> <P>Thanks for the idea of a board game. That is something we used to enjoy together that we haven&#8217;t done in a long time. I will try it.<P><B> 4. Attractive spouse - She has gained a lot of weight over the years and she doesn&#8217;t change her eating habits and NEVER exercises.<P>How have you expressed your dismay re this? I doubt that it doesn't bother her, but it may be a case of her feeling that you 'should love her no matter what'.</B> <P>Yes I have expressed my dismay about this. I try not to bring it up too often because she is very sensitive about it. The last time I mentioned it was in May when I was radically honest with her in telling her what my unmet needs were. You are right she does feel very strongly that I should love her no matter what. I try but I have to admit that it is very difficult when everywhere I go there are beautiful women.<P><B> 5. Domestic support - The house is a mess. Yes I do help.<P>My house is a mess too. H is getting much better at helping me with this! We are both packrats. I don't know if we'll ever get rid of all the clutter. but it's not really dirty, just messy. Know your own tolerance level for mess. Express your needs in terms that are not derogatory to her. Can you afford a cleaning service? Does your wife work outside the home?</B> <P>My wife works part time. At the most 15 hours a week. Even then we had a cleaning service. We have stopped the cleaning service about a month ago to save money. She told me she would take over the jobs that were being done but she hasn&#8217;t. It really frustrates me that with her only working a small number of hours a week and only one teenage son at home she doesn&#8217;t do a better job of taking care of the house.<P><B> 6. Admiration - Very seldom<P>What do you feel is admiration? Some people have different definitions of this. </B> <P>What I got from OW in EA: She would tell me how much she admired me for keeping in shape, reading self improvements books, how handsome I am, how intelligent I am, how much she admired the career I have, how much she like the way I thought about things, she liked the same music I do, even that I was trying to work on my marriage, etc. Actually she laid it on pretty thick and I loved it. I get very little praise at home. I told my wife that this is a need but it doesn&#8217;t happen.<P><B> To FaithHopeLove</B> <BR>Thank you for your insights on my wife&#8217;s list. Are you sure you don&#8217;t know her? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I believe you are correct Admiration may be something she needs and yes you are 100% correct that spirituality is a big one for her. I have to admit that I get very frustrated with this one. She seems to have the attitude that if we keep God&#8217;s commandments, read our scriptures, go to church, pray together and as a family all of our problems will be solved. While I agree that these things may help our marriage doing these without working on our marriage will not do much. <P>A couple of questions of my own:<BR>I feel like I was radically honest with my wife back in May when I brought home the book His Needs - Her Needs and tried to tell her what my needs were. I told her that they were:<BR>1. Sexual fulfillment<BR>2. Affection<BR>3. Recreational Companionship<BR>4. Attractive spouse<BR>5. Domestic support<BR>6. Admiration<P>I have discovered in the last week that I should add Conversation to the list. I think you can see that with the length of my posts. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>I explained that I was very unhappy in our marriage and told her what I needed with each one of my needs to be happy. I gave her specific examples with each one of them. I also asked her to let me know what her needs were. I tried to get her to read the book His Needs - Her Needs and go to counseling with me. She refused both. I also told her at that time that we needed to make some changes for both of us to be happy or we needed to divorce. I tried really hard to not be too demanding and not be angry. <P>First question: Do I need to be radically honest with her again?<P>Second question: Some of you have mentioned that I should use Plan A. Let me see if I understand this correctly in this situation. I should do everything I can to meet her needs. At the same time I should not have angry outbursts, disrespect and demands. Am I understanding this correctly? By the way this is exactly what my counselor has had me doing. I have to admit that it is discouraging to do this without seeing much in return. I also know that I could do a better job. I admit that it has been hard to be fully committed to meeting her needs when I don&#8217;t see much in return. I will also admit that it has been hard when I have been on a roller coaster with my EA. <P>Third question: How do you be radically honest and Plan A at the same time. They seem to conflict each other.<P>By the way I think OW in EA may have gone cold turkey on me. I haven&#8217;t heard from her in almost three weeks. Her last letter was friendly and mine back to her was friendly so I don&#8217;t understand what happened. I keep wanting to write to her and ask what is going on but so far I have resisted. O, well I guess it is best to not dwell on it.<P>[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Want Love ]<p>[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Want Love ]

I don't have a whole lot of time right now, so will make this very short.(for a change)<P>First question: Do I need to be radically honest with her again?<BR>- MB says you need to be radically honest ALL the time.<P>Second question: Some of you have mentioned that I should use Plan A.<BR>- Yes. Plan A is mostly for yourself. But many describe it as being a doormat. <P>Third question: How do you be radically honest and Plan A at the same time. They seem to conflict each other.<BR>- I think this is where we get to learn to play well with others. Radical honesty is necessary for you to get what you need out of this marriage. Plan A requires that you do it in a polite, non-accusatory way, so that you can get what you need. Plan A lets the other person stay in giver mode. No getting defensive, etc. <P>Do not contact OW. Look at it as quitting an addiction, even if you have to count the hours. When you make it to Sunday night without giving in to contact, take your W out for dinner to celebrate. I might not tell her exactly what you're celebrating though. It might be taking radical honesty a little too far...<P>Good luck and have a good weekend.

Thank you Marissa for answering my questions about Radical Honesty and Plan A. I have to admit that I still struggle with the idea of being Radically Honest combined with Plan A. I guess the key is to be honest in sharing my feelings without love busters?<P>Made it through the weekend without contacting OW in EA. Did see her at church but didn't talk to her. I keep wondering about the silence but I have to admit that as each day goes on it is easier. By the way I like your term of lopsided EA. When I have thought about the term "onesided" that didn't seem to fit. But lopsided fits! Lopsided seems to fit my marriage also. I sure wish I had somekind of relationship that wasn't lopsided!<P>Didn't have a real good weekend with wife. I am feeling a little down. She has a problem of getting angry over things that I don't think most people would get angry about. Everyone, including her family can see it but she can't. Any information on MB that helps you deal with a spouse who gets angry easily?<P>While my wife and I were talking this weekend she told me that she felt like she was fighting for her marriage. I wanted to say "you sure have a funny way of doing it" but I kept it to myself. I have decided to continue and improve Plan A. I guess I haven't done a very good job because she doesn't seem very happy. But then she seldom does. How do you Plan A without feeling like a doormat?<P>I wish she would Plan A me! But I guess one of us needs to.<p>[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Want Love ]

Happy Monday! I think everyone struggles with radical honesty and Plan A. i am working on it but it's hard. I know that if I were radically honest all of the time, Plan A would go out the window and we'd be back where we were a year ago, screaming at each other. Yes you have to share feelings without making accusations. <P>From the sound of it, your OW has broken it off with you. That grief may be easier to deal with than if you had broken it off with her. I'm the one who ended it, and it's still painful, possibly because I never really felt like I had a choice. But it does get easier.<BR>Lopsided does fit doesn't it? Sometimes I still feel that way, even though there is nothing there anymore (OP made that clear) I am still stuck with all the what-ifs. <BR>Sorry you and your W didn't have a better weekend. I think there is some stuff about anger management here... you may be right about her overreacting, but I think it would be an LB to mention it to her right now? At the very least a disresectful judgement. <BR> <BR>Good for you for holding your tongue. She obviously feels that she is trying to make your marriage better in some way. This might be a good time to introduce the EN questionaire. As a way to make sure each of you are doing things that will 'count' for the other person. <BR> <BR>Plan A is supposed to be for yourself. I'm not sure how it works for a WS either. I already felt like a doormat for years before my EA, so I'm not doing very well at it now.<P>My H is doing a better and better job at plan A, but we're still not where we need to be. Time and patience I guess... <P>"I wish she would Plan A me! But I guess one of us needs to."<BR>-As someone told me when I first came here - someone has to, and since you're the one who's here - I pick you.