... for the men out there. <P>I just wondered if any other men (or maybe even women out there) have experienced this. <P>Brief history is that H had multiple one-night-stands. He was in self-destruct mode for a long time, depressed. Our marriage was not great. Lots lacking at home, for both of us. <P>H went into detail (at my urging) about sex with OW. He said that out of six encounters, only three ended with him experiencing O. They were "anticlimactic" at best (he says). He wasn't even fully undressed on four occasions. Once he claims he got up out of chair where OW was uhmm... "working on him" ... and just left.<P>According to him, it wasn't at all about the sex to begin with. At first, feeling desired by someome (since he felt I wanted nothing to do with him). Second, the self-destructive urges that came into play. He felt self-hatred, wished the women would just go away, felt repulsed at his own actions... cried and punched the car seat on the way home. Sounds like he was a wreck. <P>I don't think he's telling me these things to minimize the damage. I have in fact told him that just the fact they were o-n-s's makes them in some way WORSE. I could better understand a person feeling like they had some sort of emotional connection to another before making a decision to destroy their marriage. The fact that it was all so cheap and meaningless made me question how he really feels about WOMEN in general. <P>Anyhow... I do believe him. I just wonder how many men out there can start something and not "finish" it. Is this common with men in states of depression? And yes, alcohol played a big part in him deciding to do it all in the first place.<P>Snow

sorry, first posting since the forum went down, posted same message twice. Hopefully sorted out now!<p>[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: heartsore ]

Hi snow white,<BR>I'm bumping this up, and watching this space for answers. My husband sounds so like yours! He was depressed/mid life crisising..<BR>Very not himself and very strange. He had a<BR>pa with a not very nice ow that lasted only a few weeks before I found out. <P>He has not given me any details about the sex, and too be honest I don't think I want to know, it's been a year this week since I found out. Ohh what a year!!!! I would like nothing more than to think that the sex was not perfect, and if he didn't finish... wow, I am sure that would make my year! I always image it to be the most exciting nights he must ever have had. I'd love to be wrong.<BR>Although with our ow being a prostitute I'm sure she would have known what she was doing.<BR>In his defence he did not know that she was a prostitute till months after. Anyway, just letting you know that you are not the only one with this question, thank you for posting it.

Gentle nudge back up, hoping for some answers. Anyone?<P>Snow

Hmmm, don't know if I have any answers, but I feel the opposite. I would better understand if my H had ONSs instead of an EA/PA. I would see a one night stand as a bad decision, an EA/PA is one that is ongoing and there is a decision to continue it. A decision to put that relationship higher than your marriage. I guess I see it as a larger breach of marriage vows (not that ONSs aren't) because not only are you having sexual relations outside of marriage, but you are ALSO having emotional relations outside of marriage.<P>But of course, my H had an EA with a god friend, I am a little biased toward my own situation. Although in my head I wish it was just a ONS because then I feel I would just have to make changes and show him, whereas now I feel like I have to compete with her for some reason.

Snow,<P>Just back from vacation and trying to catch up on work, emails and this forum. Happy it's online again but a little too exhausted to contribute. Based on some postings I also want to help not hinder or be destructive. <P>So, I have some insights [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] which might help - shall I go ahead? <P>- Freddy [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Speak your mind Freddy. It's why we're here!<P>Snow

I think his intentions are sincere. Regardless of whether or not they are completely true, it isn't a bad thing for him to reassure you in that way. Of course, sex with another person isn't even the most dangerous thing a spouse can do to their spouse. But it's still an image and concern that haunts all of us BSes. <P>Don't let him get into too much detail. Those images will haunt you.

Ok Snow,<P>Your H is definitely not alone in not being able to 'finish it'. And the reasons (I believe) are that for many men, emotions play an important role in the act. 'For sex only' applies to only a few.<P>In addition to this, you could say that (today) some women are more sexually aggressive than others and 'go get' what they want. If your H was 'got' by one of these and he wasn't emotionally involved, I can fully understand that he could walk even tho somebody was 'working' on him.<P>From my own personal account, my W has not been showing me or clearly demonstrating that I am the most important relationship/person in her life. In fact, she often makes me feel like I'm way down her list of priorities although she says this is unintentional on her part. Anyways, that's how it is. This has made me feel pretty insecure about our relationship, it hit my confidence levels and made me feel **** about myself.<P>At first I was a BS,and although I was PlanAing my taker is strong and that cost me. I became a WS (for a couple of nights anyway). In the short term it did make me feel better. After feeling years of not being 'wanted' sexually or otherwise it was nice to know that somebody found me to be an attractive man. And I experienced the same problems your H did.<P>Now, I'm still working at my marriage and although the situation has improved progess is at a snails pace. It feels like we make one step forward only to make two back.<P>Working within MB principles, I'm trying to ask a lot more questions like 'how do you feel about this or that'. I'm also trying to spend 15 hours a week with my W. Just the two of us - no kid, no family, no friends. She's still resisting this but when we do spend the time and we do talk with each other at an intimate level it does improve the feelings between the two of us.<P>Just have to keep trying I guess.<P>- Freddy

GodlyMan, yes, I believe his intentions are sincere and and you are right that it's not a bad thing for him to want to reassure me in any way. However, i don't really find any of that reassuring, and he knows me well enough to understand that. One of his PA's was a make-out session only that did NOT end in any kind of sex at all. I know this from snooping in his email after dday. I got OW#6's email addy and sent off to her myself. She did not respond to ME, but did to HIM. " Hey M., why does your wife think we had sex when we DIDN'T? " followed by a lot of H. bashing and marriage bashing in general. <P>Hmm, well, from where I sit, with just ONS's those are the only details I CAN ask for, and so I did. May seem a little sadistic to some. But it helped ME immesurably. It was the only way that I could "be there" and understand. And I DO undertand how "trivial" those details can be to someone whose S was involved in an A that was also EA. <P>For the record, I've been asking about "it" all along. After dday#1 (when I learned of two PA's) he gave me all of those details. And I processed them and they were done. The other 4 he confessed 10 months later, just blurted them all out. Gave me SOME detail, only what I'd asked for. The last part and what my questions on this thread are about, came out just two weeks ago, after I told him that the questions about them just wouldn't go away. <P>He (and I agree) does NOT believe that the lack of, uhmmm, "fulfillment" makes them any more or less "tolerable". They were PA's, he DID have sex with them, he was INTIMATE with them. It's all a matter of his head space at the time, his emotional state and the problems HE was dealing with. <P>And I do wonder if the same type of thing has happened to others, and how they felt about it. I suppose I could go off to one of the more "adult" sites and get some answers but... icchhh! I don't think that those people have "solid marriage" on their agendas!<P>Respectfully, <P>Snow

Freddy, thanks for taking the time to reply. We must have been posting at the same time. I see you're really busy and I appreciate your effort with this question. <P>My H never was a BS, but because of his emotional problems and the problems in our marriage, he felt much the same way you do. Like he was last on the list, like SF was just something we did every now and then because we had two. His first two ONS's were noholds barred, barenaked sex. And he hated himself for it. The four that occured later, were all as I described. He didn't even want to be there long enough to have to get dressed again!<P>We are reared in this culture in which we begin to belive that all men just "want it" and could do it at the drop of a hat and be happy with it. I think we often sell men short on the emotional issues. (That would be me and your wife, right now) My H had some definite needs, but didn't know how to ask for them, and certainly wasn't acting like he needed them from me. <P>I'm sorry you're still embroiled in this. When my H was finally able to tell me, in plaiin english and without apologizing or rationalizing, how he felt about our marriage and all that had happened there, I was more able to see recovery as a real possibility. <P>15 hours a week... you should be able to get some of these feelings out in the open. <P>Thank you so, so, so much. You have a lot on your own plate and here you are... hope I can return the favor some day. <P>Peace, <BR>Snow

Snowwhite,<P>You said alcohal played a part. This could be a big part in why he didn't finish. If I drink say 3 or 4 beers prior to, I will never finish. This is where the term "whisky d1ck" came from. I think alcohal combined with guilt and all the other emotions is probably the reason for not finishing.<P>KS told me she didn't finish once with any of the OM. Can I believe that? No. Do I want to believe that? Yes. If she had told me she finished with one but not the rest, yes I would believe that. I sometimes think she has really softened up the truth to protect my feelings. She says all 4 men wore condoms, can I believe that? NO. She also said she wasn't fully undressed with any of them. <P>What do you think is that all too good to be true? I think so.

SEM, I have to disagree. I don't think there's anything "good" about any of it... our spouses running off with any willing and able idiot that they happen to run into... YUCK! <P>Before you read any further, I want to warn you that I'm going to be as honest as I can be about my own sexuality, without being graphic. I don't want too offend anyone. The A's that I'm dealing with were purely sexual and so that's a big part of the problem in my case. <P>There's nothing left of the A's to protect as far as I can tell. WS's have already done the worst possible damage they can do to the marriage. Though I had my share of sexual experiences before I got married, I was 99% of the time very selective in who I shared that part of my being with. I always felt like sex "sealed the deal", it was the icing on the cake of a good relationship. Something very precious, very dear to me. Something I really enjoyed doing with someone I loved. Yes, i had a single ONS myself (as a single woman) but yuck, it was the WORST. After that experience I swore it off for good. There seemed to be no point to it. Frankly, taking care of myself that particular night probably would have left me feeling a lot better.<P>Can she not have had a single O in any of her experiences? Sure. There were a lot of times when with my own H I felt so awful, so emotionally unconnected that it just couldn't happen for me, even when I tried to convince myself that I DESERVED at the very least good sex. No go, the switch was off. It was like that ONS I'd had with that very unmemorable man. <P>There was a period of a few months in early recovery, when I knew about only two of them, that I just couldn't get there. No matter what I tried, mentally, emotionally, or physically, it just wouldn't happen. It was weird. I felt the desire when we started, and was happy to be involved, but it wasn't happeneing. And more recently, before the Big Day (when things really got better for me and H) occasionally I would feel only a fraction of the fulfilment that I'm used to. Always wondered whether I should be using a condom with my own H. Wondered how fulfilling the other women really were. I never told him about those thoughts, but I told him I wasn't really enjoying myself like I should have been. <P>His feelings were similar. Anticlimactic climax. No emotional surge like that blissful feeling you get when you really are "making love" with the one you love. <P>My take on it? I think you could believe your wife. Why not? Here's my stab at playing shrink. Our S's are unhappy, emotionally distraught, feeling uncared for and unloved. Someone gives them a bit of attention, they get the ultimate invitation and for a fleeting moment, feel good about themselves. They show up, and get down to business, but after a while, their brains kick in. They know what they're doing and they know it's wrong. So all sorts of things are going on in their heads at once. They're with a stranger (or some other just as creepy person) and wonder why they're there. How would the sex turn out for you? <P>I think that in a few particular cases, like ours, they're out there looking for something and then freak out when they realize that what they've gotten themselves into isn't what they wanted at all. Why do they make the same mistake twice? Three, four, six times? Because they never tell US about it and it compounds their feelings of worthlessness, because they only remember that initial feeling of being "desired" but not the other feelings that go along with it. <P>Big sigh. I understand your reluctance to believe her. None of it makes sense. They did not behave as we would have behaved. But they're not US. They chose a different path and dragged us along with them. If you can get to that place where you're confident that she's telling you the truth, telling you everything, all of this will start to make sense, and maybe her answers will be more complete and sensible. Some of the things my H had been telling me for the last 15 months finally do, because I'm more willing to really hear him. And he is more willing to elaborate because I've passed the point of judgement and am looking for understanding. <P>((((SEM)))). I hope you feel better about this soon. You can't rush yourself and there's nothing KS can say or do that will get you there any faster. Just please consider the possibility that she is telling you the truth. As my H said to me a few weeks ago, just because he has lied about some things does not mean that he has lied about EVERYTHING. That was something I hadn't even considered before.<P>Sorry about the long post. Hope you get through it without a nap!<P>Peace,<P>Snow

Snow,<BR> I believe he didnt "finish" it is not the killing but the hunt. She stroked his ego, when he knew he could have her the game was over.<BR> I know the hell you are going through is as bad as mine, but you dont have to contend with hearing your H say " I love you so much @#%$&**!!<BR> In this respect its better, but not understanding his need for ONS is scary too.<BR> I dont think we will ever fully understand, how could we?<BR> My H was not drunk when he had A. He still had trouble in the beginning. (he kills me if he knows i said this)<BR> If I can help with more details you can write me<BR>sad_princess1@yahoo.com<BR>love ME (you know I cant stop)<p>[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: sadprincess ]

SP, you're good for at least a laugh a day! I can't email right now, last three days MSN's server has freaked out and not let me retreive my mail. As soon as they get their act together I will drop you a line. I AM curious. <P>Snow

Snowwhite,<BR>I was going to post when I noticed SEM's post. He already wrote what I was going to. I never had an O with any of them, and yes they all wore condoms but he doesn't believe me. I guess only God and I know the truth then.<P>You said "that sex was the icing on the cake" Well for me sex was nothing until after the A's. I hate to say that. My C and i agree that was from my childhood experiences to blame. SEM doesn't agree with that either. I also believe that since my father role model were always in and out of my life, that I figured SEM was going to leave as well. I believe that I built a wall betwwen us to protect myself so when he left I could go on ok. But instead it back fired and I went moving on before I gave him a chance. "Nothing to fear, but fear itself".<P>I hope one day SEM will beleive eveything I say. He has said that he wants to love me for who I am, not for what I want him to think I am. So I stand by that I don't want anything between us that could or would hurt us.<P>Your post didn't put me to sleep [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Sherry