Dear Sad_N_Lonely,<P>Hi. I don't post very often, but I have read many of your letters, and have a deep sense of how much you are trying to do what is right, and of how terribly trapped you feel. It seems that you feel that your marriage is impossible, but are not intellectually sure of why or where to go. Even now, my own wheels spin and spin, as I think about love and relationships, marriage and affairs, and my attempts to make sense of these situations can overwhelm me.<P>My situation is quite different from yours. I was betrayed by my wife and my best friend, and this happened several years ago. During the affair, she was passionately involved with him, and I believe that she would have divorced me at the time, if he had been willing to marry her. She bore his child and pretended it was mine but spoke to him every day about "their baby". I cannot describe to you how much pain I have experienced since discovering these multiple betrayals.<P>But that is only the background for my situation. It is what happened afterwards that I want to describe here. My wife was like you in many ways. When I discovered the affair, she broke it off and made an attempt to restore our marriage. She did not contact the other man again. (Well, there were two phone calls afterwards, but her overall her self-control was remarkable, and she told me about them after she made them, because honesty was very important for her). But she also believed completely that we could not love each other again, and that restoring a relationship would not work.<P>She expressed this idea to me many times over the next several months. She believed that we were not "emotionally compatible." This idea seems to me exactly like your belief that you and your wife do not fit. Whereas she thought that she and the other man had been perfectly compatible. I suppose you would say that they fit completely with one another.<P>And we suffered through many, many months of this stalemate. Since she did not believe that we could be compatible, we never could reach those intimate moments in which we could test this idea.<P>Finally, after a crisis in which we almost began divorce proceedings, she admitted that she had been running away from me, and promised that she would try to stop. <BR>And she did, as difficult as that was for her under the circumstances. Although she can be every bit as stubborn and intellectual as me, she has great courage as well, and a willingness to change.<P>We are still married. Our relationship deepened with each month since that crisis. There have been some difficult times, but many, many more beautiful ones. She finally stopped running, and I tried hard to give her space, and those changes allowed us to find out, together, how to live as husband and wife, and how to love and be loved.<P>And emotional compatibility? She has not even discussed it the past few years. Somehow, the concept seems unimportant now. An idea that dominated her thinking for months, and is no longer useful. We fit because of the way we choose to interact.<P>I can't tell if any of our experiences will apply to you. And I don't have time to argue over them either. Living my life is far more important. However, I will summarize my own views on compatibility between lovers, and you can make of them what you will. They are based on my life and on what I have read and observed.<P>Essay:<P>We feel loved and validated when we "fit" or "resonate" with another person. This feeling can be one of the deepest and most powerful of our lives. But two people do not, automatically, fit. <B>It is not our personalities that determine if we connect, but our actions and words.</B> Of course those are determined, in part, by who we are, but they are also strongly influenced by our situations. In an affair, the restricted nature of the interactions strongly influences how two people interact, and helps them resonate with each other in powerful and overwhelming ways, in ways that they did not imagine could be possible, before the affair. But the depth of this resonance, the perfection of this fit, are in large part caused by the environment of the affair, and are only partially due to the personalities of the two people involved in the affair.<P>And if those people marry each other, they will never resonate quite the same way again, because their environment has changed dramatically. (I have read many letters from people who married the "loves of their lives", their "soulmates", and who were then betrayed by these partners, after they they had found newer souldmates through a new affair). And if they stay in their old marriages but continue to dream about the intensity of the affair, they will never learn how to act with their spouses to create the harmonies possible in a marriage.<P>I don't know if you and your wife are so utterly unlike that you cannot create striking and beautiful harmonies in your relationship. Some people are not good with others. But <B>I do believe, with all my heart, that the essense of how we "fit" with others lies in our actions, not in our inherent natures.</B> And that is the whole (rather simplistic) message associated with this site.<P>You will never find out if I am right, as long as you believe that a relationship with your wife is doomed to be inferior to what you would have shared with your other woman, had you two married. That belief has destroyed your <B>desire</B> to make your marriage work. And that is why I believe that marriages are usually destroyed by affairs, rather than by the problems that led to the affairs.<P>But maybe you can set aside your beliefs and your arguments, and try working on your actions instead. View your life as an experiment, and see what works. What proved true for us might not apply to you, but the similarities in our situations makes me hope that it might.<P>We are doing well now. The pain is still there, but now my wife is my comfort, rather than the cause. And she is healthy and thriving and creating in a way I have not seen for years, and which I certainly did not see in the affair. I have changed and grown more in the past few years than in the rest of my life as well. And the child who was passed off as mine turns out to be mine in the only sense that really matters, because I have raised him from birth and he loves me as deeply as I love him, and he runs to see me and hug everytime I come home. Yet even this state is just a work in progress. That is all that life ever is, in truth.<P>I wish you well in your quest.<P>StillTrying<P>PS — I will close with a quote from one of the greatest rabbis to have ever taught, a quote that summarizes for me the importance our thoughts and beliefs have:<P>Watch your thoughts, they become your words.<BR>Watch your words, they become your actions.<BR>Watch your actions, they become your habits.<BR>Watch your habits, they become your character.<BR>Watch your character, it becomes your destiny.<P>—Hillel

Thank-you still-trying, I apreciate your thoughts. And it is marriages like yours, and others where there is no overt abuse, or addictions and such that interest me. Some restore, some end, and it is exactly why that happens, which I seek, and which I express by the label fit.<P>It was not clear if you feel it makes not difference who you marry, but you imply that by suggesting fit is unimportant. In a fundamental sense fit is nothing more than how the unique psychologies of two individuals impact each others well-being, above and beyond concious choice. Some beleive life is nothing but choice, choose to be happy, choose to love whovever you are married too, etc. etc. I won't even discuss this anymore, it is patently wrong. If it didn't matter, we would not be human beings, we would be something else. The scientists know personality/psychology/whatever we want to call it, is partly genetically determined. That suggests mother nature does not want us to be all the same, and that fit does indeed matter a lot. And suggests further that we are equipped to assess how well we fit someone, and that one of the tools we use is the emotional component of the motivation to "love" someone. Not the concious choice, (which is vital also), but the emotional choice, and it is important cause it is beyond the reach of our manipulative cognition. It is a real truth. Interstinly folks argue vehemently against trusting the feelings about in-live, but will argue other times we should pay close attention to our intuition.<P>Your circumstances were tough, and I am happy you seem content now with the outcome. I think I understand why your wife did what she did, before, during, and after her affair, and her behaviour now. Because that is where I have finally come, (as did your wife), I won't say though, cause it would infuriate some here, and I am not sure despite your contemplative post, you would want to hear. But you have just provided another piece of the puzzle I am trying to put together. I just wish I could verify my supposition with your wife.<P><BR>still...We feel loved and validated when we "fit" or "resonate" with another person. This feeling can be one of the deepest and most powerful of our lives. <P>snl...I agree.<P>still...But two people do not, automatically, fit. It is not our personalities that determine if we connect, but our actions and words. <P>snl...Yes they do fit first, the words and actions follow. One can try (and many do) to reverse engineer fit, and make something work. That I do not deny, but it is not the real thing.<P>still...Of course those are determined, in part, by who we are, but they are also strongly influenced by our situations. <P>snl...It is entirely determined by who we are. But we can screw it up too, that is the nature of freewill.<P>still...In an affair, the restricted nature of the interactions strongly influences how two people interact, and helps them resonate with each other in powerful and overwhelming ways, in ways that they did not imagine could be possible, before the affair. <P>snl...I agree, one can mistake things that resemble, real love, real fit, but are not. And in fact, IMO the vast majority of affiars are not love based.<P>still...(I have read many letters from people who married the "loves of their lives", their "soulmates", and who were then betrayed by these partners, after they they had found newer souldmates through a new affair). And if they stay in their old marriages but continue to dream about the intensity of the affair, they will never learn how to act with their spouses to create the harmonies possible in a marriage.<P>snl.... I agree. Most of us are poorly trained to assess whether we fit someone very well, and often misinterep many selfish things for love. But this is a solvable problem, it just takes a lot of work.<P>still....I don't know if you and your wife are so utterly unlike that you cannot create striking and beautiful harmonies in your relationship. Some people are not good with others. But I do believe, with all my heart, that the essense of how we "fit" with others lies in our actions, not in our inherent natures. And that is the whole (rather simplistic) message associated with this site.<P>snl...That is a paradigm choice still, and I think you are correct about MB. I do think one can strike a particular harmony with just about anyone, depending on how much you limit the scope. The real issue is what is oneflesh, does it exist, and if so, what is required to obtain it. As it always must, if one takes this to it's logical conclusion, you have just defined the choice, does one "settle" for the best they can get, or does this mysterious in-love exist and if so, how much risk should one take to get it, and is it worth it. Let me ask you something, factoring out kids (which makes a difference), and just focusing on intimacy, why be married at all? Is it just about a laundary list of EN's? Or is it something else? Marriage itself is nothing more than the legal recognition of who we choose as our intimate mate, so when I say why be married, I mean what exactly is the reason/benefit for having an intimate mate? <P>still...You will never find out if I am right, as long as you believe that a relationship with your wife is doomed to be inferior to what you would have shared with your other woman, had you two married. <P>snl...Very astute, is one of the major struggles, trying to put that out of mind. Whether in reality could have happened, makes no difference, it becomes the yardstick.<P>still....That belief has destroyed your desire to make your marriage work. And that is why I believe that marriages are usually destroyed by affairs, rather than by the problems that led to the affairs.<P>snl...Yes, but that is how it should be, that is what life experiences are supposed to do, change your perceptions. However, nothing messy humans do, is quite that black and white, hence the struggle. But you must understand, I realized before the affair, the marriage was dead, had failed, was just going through the motions. One of the things I have come to realize is that a true love affair ends the marriage. If both parties are otherwise decent ethical normal people, who have indeed fallen in love with each other, this is trouble. The only way a marriage can be restored is to essentially start over, date your spouse, see if you chose them as marital partner, and ask them to marry you (both must do this, bs and ws). Otherwise it is forever crippled. That is why it is absolutely essential a ws not be coerced, or manipulated in any way, and freely chooses the ws, as well as freely ends the affair.<P>still....But maybe you can set aside your beliefs and your arguments, and try working on your actions instead. View your life as an experiment, and see what works. <P>snl...I an indeed taking actions in my life, you are correct, you cannot think yourself out of this. One of the actions was to end the affair. Another is to apply MB principles, and there are others. Where I get truculent, is when the suggested actions only include restoration actions. I insist on actions that also reveal and address fitting issues. I see no purpose in being given my w as my only choice (or she I for that matter), that skews the outcome toward settleing, even if you don't fit great. That is what I want to avoid. I do not want to choose my w just cause I happen to be married to her. I want to choose her over all others whether I was married to her or not. That is what upsets many, they (IMO) view marriage as a sort of contest, you "win" the spouse and you have em forever. I prefer to be chosen everyday just for me, not cause I am the only choice. I would want my spouse to leave the second they ever have any doubt about wanting me as their other half.<P>still...What proved true for us might not apply to you, but the similarities in our situations makes me hope that it might.<P>snl...And I thank-you, it does help.<P>still...PS &#8212; I will close with a quote from one of the greatest rabbis to have ever taught, a quote that summarizes for me the importance our thoughts and beliefs have:<P>Watch your thoughts, they become your words.<BR>Watch your words, they become your actions.<BR>Watch your actions, they become your habits.<BR>Watch your habits, they become your character.<BR>Watch your character, it becomes your destiny.<P>snl...Yep, and what to do about it when we get off track.

Dear Sad_N_Lonely,<P>Your reply was extremely thoughtful and articulate, and I agree with many of your ideas. A very few bother me.<P><B>Why be married at all?</B><P>I met and married my wife when I was quite young. We spent many years together before the first of our children was born, and were very happy then. I loved to read with her, to talk with her, to listen to music with her, to take walks and watch movies and make love with her. Why be married? It made us both very happy then. (She told me, after the affair, that she would never have done this back during those years).<P><B>You think that you understand what she was looking for.</B><P>I would suspect not. From what I have read, each person's life history, and interests and desires are so complex and so different, we cannot easily explain why we do what we do, let alone why others do. My wife told me at length (although with appropriate discretion) about how their relationship developed and what it felt like. I know her extremely well, and I knew him as well, and I have read many things each of them wrote at the time of the affair. So there is not much that I am afraid to face, and I don't expect to learn too much more.<P>There is one common thread in affairs though. I think that love affairs involve a desire to be heard and be understood. To be validated at a very deep level. But what it is that each of us wants heard, and why, varies tremendously.<P><B>Fit is entirely determined by who we are</B><P>I disagree. I think that the combination of our personalities and our situations is the crucial factor. My wife and I fit very well before we had children. Once we were in a new situation, and children and careers and re-locations had their impact, our own actions changed, and those changes affected the way that we fit. <P>I believe (with no proof) that there is a set of people that we could "fit" with, and that we could live extremely happy and productive lives with any of these people. Whether or not we do depends on whether our actions tend to create situations that maintain and re-enforce how we fit, or instead create new situations in which we don't do so well together. If people married and were once happy together, I believe that they definitely could fit. The problem is that they have not understood how to change the world around them to allow that resonance to occur. If people were never happy together, I would worry a lot about the possibilities inherent in their relationship.<P><B>What is one flesh?</B><P>I am afraid that I don't buy the argument that there is one right person for us, or that there is one perfect kind of connection.<P>For a few months after the affair my wife told me that her partner had been the exact right perfect person for her. And later she began to describe problems with him that were extremely harmful to their relationship. Eventually she told me that he was so troubled that she could never marry him, even if we divorced. Those problems of his had existed all along, right beside his good points. But when she wanted a perfect relationship with him, she chose not to pay them much attention.<P>I think that what people describe here as the "fog" is the desperate attempt of many wayward spouses to understand and simplify their situation by denying all evidence that disagrees with the belief that they have found their one true soulmate.<P><B>Choosing your spouse everyday.</B><P>I both agree and disagree with you here. I told my wife that I wanted to be married to her because she wanted me <I>now, each day.</I>. Not because she was stuck with me and believed that a divorce was impossible. But I did not mean by that that each day we would feel the intense passion and togetherness that one associates with the clandestine meetings in an affair. We have those times, and we have times when we are running around all day, caring for children and working, and only have a few minutes to talk or touch bases. We have times when we feel intense closeness, and occassional times when we are very angry with each other, and can't stand being together.<P>Any marriage involves a whole range of interactions. An affair is more limited.<P>And because a marriage involves a range of interactions, and because it is so long-lasting, there will be times when it might not feel worthwhile. <I>The essense of the wedding vows, to me, is that we will honestly face those hard times together, and each change so that we remain true, both to ourselves, and to a relationship in which we can resonate with each other.</I> That is not an easy task.<P>But, since all people do change, the alternative is to live through a series of relationships, each one intense, because it is with someone who matches almost perfectly our needs and situations of the moment, but each one fleeting, because it ends when we change.<P><B>After a love affair, a marriage must begin anew.</B><P>I agree with you. And not because the old marriage was necessarily terrible. Ours had many wonderful qualities, as well as the problems that crept in during the years leading up to the affair. Rather I believe it to be true because the affair itself destroys the basis of the marriage.<P>Almost two years after the end of the affair, we were re-married. That moment was an extremely emotional one for us. We both fell into each others arms afterwards, when we were alone, and cried. <P>I cannot pretend to offer any more answers than these. I still hurt, and there are still many things that we each are looking for. But we are looking together now, and have already found so much.<P>I wish you well,<P>StillTrying

Dear Sad_N_Lonely,<P>One more thing to consider.<P>While you are undertaking a philosophical re-examination of love, and debating the extent to which the women in your life have "fit" or resonated with you, your wife is fighting a battle for emotional survival.<P>I cannot express how deeply it hurts to have been betrayed by an affair. The few on these boards who have experienced both say that it is more devestating than being raped. (I only know that all of the rest of the pain in my life, put together, did not begin to compare to it). If you could possibly comprehend how your wife feels inside, your view of her and your actions towards her would probably change dramatically.<P>It is hard for someone to act as your soulmate when, inside, they are fighting for survival.<P>I also suspect, in my own situation, that my wife's explanations about emotional compatibility were in part a way to avoid some of the guilt for having done this to me. Although she always accepted responsibility, it was only after she stopped talking about compatibility that I felt she heard who I was and accepted that she had caused some of my pain. The manner in which she has listened to me since has been so different from what it was beforehand, and so much more like her "old" self. Like the person that I married, and whom I respect deeply.<P>It is possible that your own analyses play a similar role for you.<P>Guilt is no reason at all for staying married to your wife. But hiding from guilt is an even worse reason for getting divorced.<P>I hope these concerns don't sound too presumptuous.<P>Sincerely,<P>StillTrying<p>[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: StillTrying ]

SnL<P>This seems to be the appropriate thread to put this comment (finally).<P>Everything returns to this statement:<P><B>I want to choose her over all others ... I prefer to be chosen everyday</B><P>This is a disposable marriage. If you look, you will find them: someone better, that is. That's just a question of statistics!<P>I think the Harley's are cognizant of the fact that there is always someone better out there. Heck, I probably knew only about 20 women moderately well before I married. If I check out 100 I think my odds are high of finding someone "better". Define "better" any way you want: someone who's better at meeting my needs (behaviorism), or someone who "fits".<P>When you get married, you stop looking. At least, that's what the Harley's say. Then your first marriage becomes your only marriage!<P>Now, I'm going to assume that when you say that you want your partner to reaffirm her love everyday, that means both of you are actually looking, in order for the reaffirmation to have some meaning.<P>Do you understand that your new relationship is going to be only temporary? <P>I try to envision a society where people hop from relationship to relationship as they find a better match and all I come up with is chaos.<P>I would be interested in hearing what you picture your subsequent life looking like if you actually implement this "better fit" process. Go two iterations away from the present: 1) what happens when you find a better fit and leave (again), 2) what happens when your partner finds her better fit and leaves. <P>What does your life look like at that point? Are you still happy? Do you think your partners are happy? Can you actually make plans for the future anymore?<P>Our current society is nothing like that.<BR>*Conjecture here-> I submit that we humans do not favor disposable relationships, but in fact prefer to be in long term relationships. We invented lots of rules which [i]help/i] that to happen.<P>More conjecture-> Happiness is <B>more</B> than finding the perfect person to hang out with. It is the entire web of our lives. We are complex creatures, after all. When you talk about "settling" for a spouse you don't fit, you've reduced a multidimensional problem down to one variable. I don't see how that's appropriate, in general.<P>I've been thinking about this particular question for a while. I just hope this thread doesn't turn nasty like so many of the others. I also hope I beat the pack to this question. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <P>Jeffers

WOW.<P>Cali

<B>Double WOW!</B> I am most impressed with the posts on this thread. Please continue for I believe that I am finally finding what I've been seeking on this forum. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

You all should read many of StillTrying's other posts. The man knows what he is doing and explains it beautifully. He is goood. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>JL

Why be married at all?<P>still...I met and married my wife when I was quite young. We spent many years together before the first of our children was born, and were very happy then. <P>snl..... I assume your wife would say the same. But I wonder about these things a lot anymore. Humans seem to have such capacity to delude ourselves. We focus on the delusion of affairs, but the same concept must apply to happily married, and in fact judging by the stories here, many in fact were deludeing themselves re the happy marriage, and just ignoring or burying feelings that might question. IMO happily married people never change, and never have affairs. An affair means something is seriously wrong with either the individual or the marriage (in a fitting sense).<P>still...Why be married? It made us both very happy then. (She told me, after the affair, that she would never have done this back during those years).<P>snl...Hooray, someone said being happy is important!!!!!!!!!!!<P>You think that you understand what she was looking for.<P>I would suspect not. From what I have read, each person's life history, and interests and desires are so complex and so different, we cannot easily explain why we do what we do, <P>snl...I am not so sure still, the more I learn about people the more I realize ther is not that many behavioural issues. The details might be different, but not the general rules. For instance I install furnaces, each installation is unique, but each involves the same finite number of steps and actions, they vary, but not in a significant way. Likewise what I read about temperament, Humans fall into 4 general categories, and 16 sub-categorties, any further division invokes the law of diminishing returns. I bet I could articulate what your wifes decision tree was very closely. Not cause I know her, but because I am coming to uinderstand the issues, and peoples behaviour is becoming predictable. There is only a small number of considerations in decideing what to do after an A, and you provided enough info on your circumstances (and wife) to gauge pretty closely (since I am a ws, otherwise be harder) what she went through. It interests me cause I am facing the same decisions.<P>still...There is one common thread in affairs though. I think that love affairs involve a desire to be heard and be understood. To be validated at a very deep level. But what it is that each of us wants heard, and why, varies tremendously.<P>snl...I agree 100%.<P>Fit is entirely determined by who we are<P>I disagree. I think that the combination of our personalities and our situations is the crucial factor. My wife and I fit very well before we had children. Once we were in a new situation, and children and careers and re-locations had their impact, our own actions changed, and those changes affected the way that we fit. <P>snl...This may just be a semantic issue. Our personalities are hardwired, and so must our fit determine our behaviour and succes at itimacy. But there is a range of fit, and eventually it becomes "settleing". The better we fit the less stress circumstances will place on the marriage IMO. More reason to choose someone you fit well.<P>still...I believe (with no proof) that there is a set of people that we could "fit" with, and that we could live extremely happy and productive lives with any of these people.<P>snl...I hope so. And I have pondered this. It makes more sense, due to the complexities of life, as well as personality, that fit is in part potential, and what you do with it.<P>still...Whether or not we do depends on whether our actions tend to create situations that maintain and re-enforce how we fit, or instead create new situations in which we don't do so well together. <P>snl...I agree.<P>still...If people married and were once happy together, I believe that they definitely could fit. <P>snl...Depends on why they were happy, if it was egalitarian, was stressed hard, and truly happy then yes. If it was stars in eyes, easy times, depoendentcy, etc. then no.<P>still...The problem is that they have not understood how to change the world around them to allow that resonance to occur. If people were never happy together, I would worry a lot about the possibilities inherent in their relationship.<P>snl...Again I lean more to fit overcoming problems, than working hard to make oneself fit. And I agree that folks who marry for the wrong reasons (and many do), have less likelihood of success. <P>What is one flesh?<P>still....I am afraid that I don't buy the argument that there is one right person for us, or that there is one perfect kind of connection.<P>snl...That is not what I meant. I meant fit that merges two people into one, such that they truly bond in some fundamental ways, above and beyond simply working at meeting each others EN. They do not choose each other, they cannot not choose each other.<P>still....For a few months after the affair my wife told me that her partner had been the exact right perfect person for her. And later she began to describe problems with him that were extremely harmful to their relationship. Eventually she told me that he was so troubled that she could never marry him, even if we divorced. <P>snl..That suggests she did a poor job of assessing her love interst, and did not love him at all. So your marriage was in no real danger at all, least not from him. What if she had been married to him, and you were the om still, would she have fit you better? And if so, what should be done about that?<P>still...I think that what people describe here as the "fog" is the desperate attempt of many wayward spouses to understand and simplify their situation by denying all evidence that disagrees with the belief that they have found their one true soulmate.<P>snl...Absolutely, bs suffer from it too, thinking their spouse who is a serial affair sociopath will someday wake up and love them.<P>Choosing your spouse everyday.<P>still...I both agree and disagree with you here. I told my wife that I wanted to be married to her because she wanted me now, each day.. Not because she was stuck with me and believed that a divorce was impossible. <P>snl..Most say that, but refuse to deal with it when a ws says they are not in-love with them, and try there darndest to persuade him he is just confused. Often times they are successful, and then get to fine tune their efforts when they wander again, some never wake up and smell the roses, thinking they "love" some guy who walks all over them forever.<P>still...But I did not mean by that that each day we would feel the intense passion and togetherness that one associates with the clandestine meetings in an affair. <P>snl...I didn't mean that either, and had nothing to do with the affair.<P>still...and occassional times when we are very angry with each other, and can't stand being together.<P>snl...I don't think oneflesh bonds ever feel that way (not trying to comment on your marriage, just an opinion). And I think there are marriages where the folks never feel that way, do you think that is possible? And if so, why do you think some do and others don't?<P>still....Any marriage involves a whole range of interactions. An affair is more limited.<P>snl...Of course, that is why people divorce and marry someone else, a true love affair quickly becomes untenable cause the people want to cleave, and the rest of the world does it's best to tear em apart. No one really cares if it is true love or the two fit better together than with spouses. I sometimes think the best solution is just to require folks to live with their lover for a year, and then see which spouse they want to be with. If people knew they had to "marry" the op, maybe they would be less inclined to wander. But if they do fit the other person better, than maybe it is best to facillitate that, until one ends up with someone they will not wander from. Of course, this could all be settled by teaching people skills in mate selection in the first place, and making marriage much much harder to enter, and affairs have real legal consequences. The problem is not affairs anyways, it is how we go about marrying.<P>still...And because a marriage involves a range of interactions, and because it is so long-lasting, there will be times when it might not feel worthwhile. <P>snl...I disagree, I think this all goes back to fit and bonding. Deeply bonded people just do not ever querstion the marriage. They may fight, and such, but the marriage is never in question.<P>still....The essense of the wedding vows, to me, is that we will honestly face those hard times together, and each change so that we remain true, both to ourselves, and to a relationship in which we can resonate with each other. That is not an easy task.<P>snl...In my opinion vows are feel good events, designed to gaurantee future feelings, an impossible expectation. It is a psychological fact that sacrificial marriage is unhealthy, ALL psychologists advise against it. And that is all a vow can ever be, cause if you want to be married, you don't need a vow, it is only a tool of coercion, and sacrifice.<P>still....But, since all people do change, the alternative is to live through a series of relationships, each one intense, because it is with someone who matches almost perfectly our needs and situations of the moment, but each one fleeting, because it ends when we change.<P>snl....I don't think it is that ephemeral, fitting is not that fragile. If you fit someonme well, that is enough, there is no such thing as perfect, we cannot define it. But we sure know when we don't fit...right? I have a little advantage here cause of my job I have met 10-15,000 women in their own homes, married, single, diovorced, seperated, you name it, and I talk alot to people cause they interest me. I have only been attracted to a handfull at all, and many many I thanked God I was not married too, most were just blah (no reflection on them as people, just nothing pulling me). Had two service calls tonight, one woman was just blah, the other gave me the willies. Yesterday spent an hour talking with another woman, she was bright, interested in behaviour (we talked about all this stuff, love, marriage, etc.), turns out she was a middle school counsellor and loved this kind of discussion also. Riight up my alley. She was forthright, but came across polite and was very friendly....liked her alot as a conversant, but did nothing for me at any other level. I really do think people fit still. And right or wrong, the ow hit me like a pile of bricks from the first words I saw her write. I don't know for sure what any of this means, but something goes on between people, and is communicated in a 1000 different ways.<P>After a love affair, a marriage must begin anew.<P>I agree with you. And not because the old marriage was necessarily terrible.<P>snl....Yes has nothing to do with terrible or not. It ended when someone left to love another. The emotional contract was broken.<P>still....Almost two years after the end of the affair, we were re-married. That moment was an extremely emotional one for us. We both fell into each others arms afterwards, when we were alone, and cried.<P>snl...I think any marriage that is restored should do this. Actually I think recovery should begin with a divorce, so their is total freedom to rechoose, and remarry your spouse. Anything less feels like some coercion, and I guess it is. <P>still...While you are undertaking a philosophical re-examination of love, and debating the extent to which the women in your life have "fit" or resonated with you, your wife is fighting a battle for emotional survival.<P>snl...so are we all, such is life. There is nothing anyone can do to protect any of us from that pain. We can only hope people act as supportively as possible without losing the integrity of the process.<P>still...I cannot express how deeply it hurts to have been betrayed by an affair. The few on these boards who have experienced both say that it is more devestating than being raped. (I only know that all of the rest of the pain in my life, put together, did not begin to compare to it). <P>snl...I think it hurts, but there is little one can do about the pain, it is the risk we take in any relationship, marriage just intensifies the rejection. My wife (while we were dating) threatened suicide when we broke up, guess it must have hurt alot huh? Pain is an unfortunate part of life, and I doubt any spouse wants their spouse to remain with them just so they won't be hurt by rejection. Folks say you should divorce first, and I agree (in a perfect world, where we all understood this stuff perfectly). But I doubt it hurts much less to have yuor spouse serve you divorce papers, than to serve you discovery. In any event people assume I do not know what rejection feels like. Try being married for 23 years and seeing the dog get better treatment than you (emotionally), or knowing your wife still considers herself bonded to her father more than she does you. You have no idea still the emotional hell my first ten years of marriage was, I would choose my wife having an A in a new york minute. I only survived cause I finally gave the pain to God. The marriage didn't improve (just kept getting worse), but I felt better.<P>still....If you could possibly comprehend how your wife feels inside, your view of her and your actions towards her would probably change dramatically.<P>snl...I do know exactly how she feels, I have been with her for 29 years, there is little I don't know about her. Do you all(rhetorically speaking) really think I am this pathetic loser I get accused of? That I just capriciously decided one day to go off an have an affair? I did everything I felt humanly possible for most of 24 years of marriage to somehow find a way to have a loving marriage. You all know by now how intense I can be, I spent YEARS trying to get my wife to love me, and trying desperately to not stop loving her like I was supposed to do. I SPENT 23 YEARS AND NEVER LOOKED AT ANOTHER WOMAN. I gave her everything I knew how to give, I absorbed significant emotional abuse, and just gave back care and love (most of the time). I gave this woman my life. I don't drink, do drugs, watch porn, or anything else. I was involved a lot with my kids, all I did was work and come home to my family, and she still does not know who I am. You people who give me a hard time (not you still, just using your post) have not walked in my shoes, and you have no idea what you are talking about. I was a bs long before I was a ws, as far as rejection and emotional pain are concerned. <P>still...It is hard for someone to act as your soulmate when, inside, they are fighting for survival.<P>snl..You can say that again.<P>still...Guilt is no reason at all for staying married to your wife. But hiding from guilt is an even worse reason for getting divorced.<P>snl...If there is one thing I don't do it is hide. I have kept our marital dysfunctions on the front burner our entire marriage, to no avail. And I feel absolutely no quilt. I know what happened, and I know why. I feel bad my wife is hurting, but then I have always taken care of her when she was hurting, this time I can't.<P>still...I hope these concerns don't sound too presumptuous.<P><BR>snl....??????? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] No, was fine, I do draw the line at presuming I am pathetic though.<P> <BR>jeffers ... SnL.This seems to be the appropriate thread to put this comment (finally).<P>snl....alright!!!!!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Everything returns to this statement:<P>I want to choose her over all others ... I prefer to be chosen everyday<P>This is a disposable marriage. If you look, you will find them: someone better, that is. That's just a question of statistics!<P>snl... It could be, if one has the intent to keep looking. I don't think it is linear though (thanks jl). There is a kind of critical mass, and if you fit well enough, you explode (or something) and search no more (or are vulnerable no more). The opposite is that you suggest marriage is an absolute. So regardless of who you marry, that is it, no 2nd tries, that obviously won't work either. People deceive (for the intents of marriage) all the time. There has to be a means to correct that.<P>jeffers....I think the Harley's are cognizant of the fact that there is always someone better out there. <P>snl...That has never been my point. My point is the marriage should be about intimate bonding, and that such has certain characterisitics, and fit determines the likelihood of those characteristics.<P>jeffers...When you get married, you stop looking. At least, that's what the Harley's say. Then your first marriage becomes your only marriage!<P>snl...Sure, until the marriage fails, but you exist in withdrawal instead of divorcing. You are essentiall emotionally doivorced, the psychologists even have a name for it....married but living a singles lifestyle (refering to your emtional orientation, and seperate habits as the spouses avoid each other). And what do single people do, they fall in love.<P>jeffers....Now, I'm going to assume that when you say that you want your partner to reaffirm her love everyday, that means both of you are actually looking, in order for the reaffirmation to have some meaning.<P>snl...No I mean there will be no psychological pressure to look, cause you are allready fullfilled.<P>jeffers...I try to envision a society where people hop from relationship to relationship as they find a better match and all I come up with is chaos.<P>snl...I agree. I don't think 23 years of effort is hoping exactly...do you? One should make a good faith effort to fix a marriage, I am just saying the success of the repair is dependent on how well you fit, and recognizing you don't fit that well is reason enough not to force someone (or yourself) to sleep in someones bed for a lifetime....do you think we shoul all force ourseleves (or each other) to do that if we do not want too?<P>jeffers...I would be interested in hearing what you picture your subsequent life looking like if you actually implement this "better fit" process. Go two iterations away from the present: 1) what happens when you find a better fit and leave (again), <P>snl...Not sure what you are looking for but here goes. No more walking on eggshells, no more trying to meet EN as a duty, no more loneliness. The again confuses me. If it is a failed 2nd marriage, I obviously did a poor job of mate selection.<P>2) what happens when your partner finds her better fit and leaves. <P>snl...I wish her well, and try to figure out where I went wrong. But that applies in any marriage, including the one I am in now doesn't it?<P>jeffers...What does your life look like at that point? Are you still happy? Do you think your partners are happy? Can you actually make plans for the future anymore?<P>snl....Can't get much worse (emotionally) that it already is, so your point is? I am a risk taker jeffers, I would rather try and fail, then play it safe and always wonder. I have decided (for me) marriage must be enthusiastic, passionate choice, not just a contractural settleing for any warm body to meet my EN. No one can make plans for the future jeffers if they want gaurantees, it is all a crap shoot. Remember I already tried once, and lost, I am not unhappy cause I planned on it, or want to be, I tool a chance on someone who made promises, and did not deliver, such is life, now or in the future.<P>jeffers...Our current society is nothing like that.<BR>*Conjecture here-> I submit that we humans do not favor disposable relationships, but in fact prefer to be in long term relationships. We invented lots of rules which [i]help/i] that to happen.<P>snl...I agree.<P>jeffers...More conjecture-> Happiness is more than finding the perfect person to hang out with. It is the entire web of our lives.<P>snl...I disagree, happiness is about one thing only (well two), the degree to which we fit our mate....and the success of our children. Nothing else even comes close to counting. That is why leaveing a marriage that does not work is essential to ones well-being.<P>jeffers....We are complex creatures, after all. When you talk about "settling" for a spouse you don't fit, you've reduced a multidimensional problem down to one variable. I don't see how that's appropriate, in general.<P>snl...By settling I mean making marriage work, an EN contract, you do me I do you. People in-love have a different marital experience, I want that one, and am willing to pay the necessary price....once I am sure what that price is. If one has to think up reasons to stay married, they are not in-love, they are making a calculated judgement, IMO in-love is not something you can choose, it chooses you, you cannot not choose it. Keep in mind that leaveing a marriage is intrinsically no different than entering one. A spouse is not kin, they are a stranger, one of 5 billion or so, and all your ties are psychological, if the bonding does not occur, there is nothing special about them, just some history, they are still a stranger, and you can choose not to live with them. You may care about them, even like them, but that is not what in-love is about IMO.<P>I've been thinking about this particular question for a while. I just hope this thread doesn't turn nasty like so many of the others. I also hope I beat the pack to this question. <P>Jeffers

Dear Sad_N_Lonely,<P>I appreciated your responses. It looks like there are a few issues about which we disagree. <P>(1) The most important is this one:<P>You wrote these things, which seem to me to be the heart of your struggle:<P><B>"in-love is not something you can choose, it chooses you, you cannot not choose it"</B><P><B>"Deeply bonded people just do not ever question the marriage."</B><P><B>"if you want to be married, you don't need a vow, it is only a tool of coercion"</B><P>And I could go on. To me, it appears that you want to make your decisions about life, and about your intimate relationships, based entirely on <I>your own emotions. On your feelings.</I> Shortly after the affair, my wife advocated the same position. We must be true to our feelings. Feelings don't change.<P>I disagree entirely. In my experience, we must be aware of our feelings, and consider them as we decide our life course, but we must also remember that <I>our actions will strongly influence our future feelings.</I> Thus, no affair happens because two people with a perfect fit bump into each other and are instantly overwhelmed. Affairs happen because two people who are discontented are looking for validation, and choose to offer it to each other, in a long series of small interactions that builds intimacy to the point at which they feel bonded. Each interaction helps develop their feelings of love, and each could have been avoided, had they so chosen. This part is easy, since it is intensely pleasurable to build feelings of love and share them with others. But the necessary lying, and the necessary choosing of actions that limit the role one's spouse plays while you are having an affair also determine your emotions - at best they diminish your love for your spouse, and at worst you begin to hate the spouse for being the one person standing in the way of your true happiness, and yet you can't phrase it that way, which starkly outlines the betrayal, and so you begin to hate them for a host of small crimes.<P>And so the affair grows and the marriage crumbles.<P>But you can once again change your emotions by choosing actions that will promote the emotions you want to have.<P><BR>(2) I sense a complete inability in you to see things a different way. And yet I watched my wife go through complete reversals in the way in which she viewed the world too. I know that what seems so concrete, so permanent to you is actually not. I have changed dramatically too, since the affair, in ways that I might never have done otherwise. And after you change, it is hard to relate to the emotions you once felt.<P>There is a wonderful book that you should read, called <I>An Anthropologist on Mars</I> by Oliver Sacks. He is a neurologist, and describes a case in which an artist lost the ability to see in color. The humbling, overwhelming thing that I learned was that the artist lost not only the ability to see in color, <I>but to remember in color.</I> His current situation completely altered his understanding of the past.<P>I thought of that as I heard my wife describe the course of our marriage shortly after the discovery of her affair. So much that we had experienced had ceased to exist for her. And the way that she describes it now is once again dfferent from what it had been after discovery.<P>I do not know what is true or real in your marriage. But you are probably the least reliable person in the world to objectively examine your past with your wife at this time. It might have been terrible (but then why did you stick around for so many, many years?) or it might have been wonderful, or it was, more likely, the complex mix of interactions that is typical of real life. However, while you feel intense love for your other woman, and while you feel responsibility for betraying your wife, you are probably incapable of making informed decisions about your past, your present and your future. Give yourself some peace, and some time.<P>And a good therapist can help tremendously as you try to work through this. Both my wife and I benefited from therapy enormously. An affair is one of the most traumatic and disorienting experiences in life.<P>I wish you well,<P>StillTrying<p>[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: StillTrying ]

yeah I know still, I know. The first eppiphany was that I will never figure this out, that I have to make a life decsion based on incomplete information, and I have pondered the significance of that too. The 2nd eppihany was that I am not sure I can even trust my perceptions, and what does that mean. These are the 2 things that make you want to jump off a bridge, if you know what I mean. I don't particularly enjoy being so discombuberated, it actually sucks big time. I just didn't know how to integrate everything into a coherent picture. Then on top of this you have fears about satan tempting you, but maybe he tempted me to marry the wrong person in the first place. Ya see that is the problem, anytime you preconcieve the outcome, you taint the process. And there is an overwhelming bias toward providing information only designed to keep one married, only designed to make one focus on what was good about a marriage, to steer one to that choice...."cause it is for the best doncha know".....well I know that is not true. I know divorcing is often the best choice too, that there is no logical reason why a marriage should just exist (as the best outcome for ones mental/emotional well-being), so that is an inadequate reason...and round and round one goes. You state your position based on your outcome, but really don't know if you (and your w) would have been better off divorced. You can't know that your (and her) life would have not improved, you just assume it wouldn't have. Nor do you know your current marriage will continue to work, you just hope it will. So leaveing and staying become the same choice, the future is unwritten, and unknowable. You weigh what you have now with what you may have, the same process we use everyday to make choices, the same process you used to choose marriage in the first place, and to choose to stay in it.... and maybe along the way you gave up parts of yourself you shouldn't have, to make yourself fit, to settle for what you had rather than start over.<P>It comes down to why be married, why stay married, what does that mean, and that is what you see me doing due diligence re these issues. I made a huge mistake once, I made a life decision against my instincts, and with a very poor undersanding about life. I was young and my ignorance can be excused, I am a lot smarter now, and it would be rermiss of me to just "do it". The process is agonizing for sure, I regularly vacillate between just running away, or doing whatever my wife wants just to get this over, but I won't. I will stick it out, it is bearing fruit, I am becoming more certain of how to proceed, and I believe in being in control of ones life. Leave or stay, I want it to be a proactive informed enthusiastic decision, and in full agreement of both my rational and emotional decision making processes.<P>still...It looks like there are a few issues about which we disagree. <P>(1) The most important is this one:<P>You wrote these things, which seem to me to be the heart of your struggle:<P>"in-love is not something you can choose, it chooses you, you cannot not choose it"<P>"Deeply bonded people just do not ever question the marriage."<P>"if you want to be married, you don't need a vow, it is only a tool of coercion"<P>And I could go on. To me, it appears that you want to make your decisions about life, and about your intimate relationships, based entirely on your own emotions. <P>snl...After a lot of study I do believe those things to be true, and intend to act on them. And they are indeed the important emotional components one should listen too. The rational part is making sure you interpret them correctly, cause emotions are not as precise as reason.<P>still...Shortly after the affair, my wife advocated the same position. We must be true to our feelings. Feelings don't change.I disagree entirely. <P>snl....Feelings don't change if they aree the right feelings. I could prove that, but it seems unnecessary. Your wifes problems re the om were typical, she let her emotions cloud her reason, and the feelings were misinterpreted, she did not do her homework. I don't have that problem. I have the opposite one, I distrust my emotions, and try to live by pure reason, that was a mistake. You need both. I got married cause I thought I should (reason), not cause I wanted to (emotion). And here I am.<P>still...In my experience, we must be aware of our feelings, and consider them as we decide our life course, but we must also remember that our actions will strongly influence our future feelings. Thus, no affair happens because two people with a perfect fit bump into each other and are instantly overwhelmed. Affairs happen because two people who are discontented are looking for validation, and choose to offer it to each other, in a long series of small interactions that builds intimacy to the point at which they feel bonded. Each interaction helps develop their feelings of love, and each could have been avoided, had they so chosen. <P>snl...This is the part that makes me crazy. You accurately describe how we come to see how we fit with someone, but say we should not do this cause we might realize (although I think people already know) we do not fit in the marriage we are in (are unhappy). So how do we figure out we might need to leave a marriage? How do we come to realize it may be not just a little better, but a lot better if we do leave, heal, and use our experience to choose more responsibly in the future? Using your approach one would never leave a marriage, would never even know their unhappiness was not ok, was not the way it was supposed to feel. Interacting with other humans is important still, it gives you reality checks, and as you pointed out, you are now different, your marriage fixed, precisely cause of the affair. So when people say one should never allow any focus on another human being, it just means they do not want their marriage to be challenged and found lacking IMO. I have no fear of losing a spouse, never have, I intuitively have know since I was a small child you cannot gaurantee love, it must be completely voluntary and tested everyday.<P>still...This part is easy, since it is intensely pleasurable to build feelings of love and share them with others. But the necessary lying, and the necessary choosing of actions that limit the role one's spouse plays while you are having an affair also determine your emotions - at best they diminish your love for your spouse, and at worst you begin to hate the spouse for being the one person standing in the way of your true happiness, and yet you can't phrase it that way, which starkly outlines the betrayal, and so you begin to hate them for a host of small crimes.<P>snl...Yes their are consequences, good ones, and bad ones. An affair is just like every other life experience, it is what you do about it that counts. And IMO, finding you love another is not a terrible thing, it involves the same process you supposedly came to find your spouse with, it can't be wrong, it is what you do about it that is right or wrong. IMO an affair has seasons, stages, just like any love, and since it arises while one or both parties are married, what does one do. IMO the proper thing to do is understand a real relationship does not continue on in secrecy and hurt to the bs. One goes back to the marriage, is truthful and restores the bs dignity by making themself available for reconcilliation efforts, or whatever the bs needs to heal, and the marriage is then examined and restored or ended. This is not that complicated, and that balances the pros and cons of affairs affect on human beings. Those who try to continue on, and get stuck in the secrecy mode will experience the negative consequences you suggested, to the detriment of ws, bs, and op. That is what responsibility is about, what you do about the feelings.<P>still...And so the affair grows and the marriage crumbles.<P>snl...The instant you feel romantic love (not lust, or neediness) for another, your current marriage is ended...forever. If just before you realize bonding has occured (and in my opinion there is a very small window of opportunity to stop the bonding, which has a force of it's own, as it should be if it is to mean anything) you somehow arrest the process, that might be acceptable, but I am not sure about that. If you can love someone else, and not love your spouse, myself I am inclined to encourage one to explore that, you have no idea how much I do not want to be settled for, I want to be chosen above all others, and I am willing to have that at risk everyday of my life.<P>still....But you can once again change your emotions by choosing actions that will promote the emotions you want to have.<P>snl...You cannot make yourself be in-love with anyone, it is a process not under human control IMO. But you can make yourself srttle for someone, by focusing only on positive stuff, and that is a choice we all can make, it is a different kind of marriage, but I am not going to say it is wrong. However it is not oneflesh, and it is not what I seek. And is the source of my question why even be married, if it is just about having your laundary list of EN met.<P>(2) I sense a complete inability in you to see things a different way. <P>snl...??????? It is my willingness to see things a different way that let me love another. I thought I was hopelessly imprisioned for the rest of my life, and was daily doing battle with myself to not agree to my wifes requests for divorce, trying to figure out how I could live such a lonely empty life forever. It tool a concious effort to tell the ow I loved her (and to admit to myself my marriage was wrong, and hopeless). I knew there was no turning back, I did not fall in to this. I did not understand in the beginning where the friendship was going, but I knew where it was when it got there, and I chose it, conciously, willingly chose it. Not fog, not a moral breakdown, not temporary insanity, a reasoned decision, a deliberate choice to listen to my heart. I really expected her to send me packing when I told her how I felt (and told her she should send me packing), but to my amazement she felt the same, up till that point in my life I had truly thought no one could love me, strangely enough she had the same fear.<P>still...And yet I watched my wife go through complete reversals in the way in which she viewed the world too. I know that what seems so concrete, so permanent to you is actually not. <P>snl...Then you misunderstand me, I am lost and adrift, I don't know anything anymore for sure, and that is very distressing. But I am getting there, I think I understand the basic prionciples involved now.<P>still....There is a wonderful book that you should read, called An Anthropologist on Mars by Oliver Sacks. He is a neurologist, and describes a case in which an artist lost the ability to see in color. The humbling, overwhelming thing that I learned was that the artist lost not only the ability to see in color, but to remember in color. His current situation completely altered his understanding of the past.<P>snl...Interesting this is precisely the imagery I use (how to understand color when you have no capacity to even know it exists, and cannot experience it yourself), when I contemplate the mysteries of life. That one did know color once, lost it, and doesn't know one lost it is an interesting twist. Look it still, I realize I can assume I don't know anything at all, and just select someone and do what they tell me to, accepting their representation I am essentially temporarily mentally incompetent, and if I just trust them, it will get all better.......is that what you are suggesting? If not, how do I make a rational decision if I cannot trust my feelings about my circumstances? Why should I trust any feelings for my wife then too?<P>still....I thought of that as I heard my wife describe the course of our marriage shortly after the discovery of her affair. So much that we had experienced had ceased to exist for her. <P>snl...And maybe that was the truth. I have come to believe that human beings are capable of incredible denial to cope with the present. I could easily describe my marriage in much more positive terms, and probably would if I was arguing the keep it at all costs position, indeed it is sometimes a matter of perception. Many do this, and we look at the reality they live, and how great they say it is, and the contrast is stark sometimes. This place is littered with folks (including you) who thought they had great marriages, they had great pictures, clearly there were serious problems just going ignored. So what is the standard? It is the mental health of the people in the marriage, and upon close examination one finds many so-called satisfying, happy marriages are not so at all, they are illusions, denials, pictures, and finally they self-destruct. I doubt your marriage was nearly as happy as you think it was, if it was, an affair would never happen, especially with om who was not worthy. I don't believe the ws who say they really love their spouse, and don't know why they had an affair. These things are not mysteries, EVERYTHING happens for a reason, many just are incapable or unwilling to deal with the reasons, so it gets swept under the rug, and many folks oftentimes just settle and try to ignore the issues. I am not put together that way, I have to know everything, and that of course is a factor in how well I fit someone. My wife is not nearly as concerned with such things, she just wants the here and now, and just meet needs without wondering how well we fit, and just work around any incompatibilities, I can't do that.<P>still....And the way that she describes it now is once again dfferent from what it had been after discovery.<P>snl...Of course, how could it be any different? She needs to feel in her own mind all is well, as do you, and that will definitely color your perceptions (as it does all of us).<P>still.......I do not know what is true or real in your marriage. But you are probably the least reliable person in the world to objectively examine your past with your wife at this time. <P>snl...On the other hand I am the most knowledgeable about it, and certainly the best authority on what is real to me...right? How to balance that with the least objective is the dichotomy of personal choice...when to do what we think best, and when to do what others tell you.<P>still....It might have been terrible (but then why did you stick around for so many, many years?) <P>snl...The usual, vows, hopes, kids, denial.......<P>still...However, while you feel intense love for your other woman, and while you feel responsibility for betraying your wife, you are probably incapable of making informed decisions about your past, your present and your future. Give yourself some peace, and some time.<P>snl...That is exactly what I am doing, why I am still here, and you are right, I learn new things everyday. I do think time is a very important component in all this. But the time has a season, and if the feelings do not change....what then?<P>stil....And a good therapist can help tremendously as you try to work through this. Both my wife and I benefited from therapy enormously. An affair is one of the most traumatic and disorienting experiences in life.<P>snl....Had lots of counselling, and doing the harleys now. It is indeed valuable to submit oneself to professional scrutiny.<P>still...I wish you well,<P>snl...Thx, you too.

SnL,<P>Thanks for the response. I wasn't sure how you were going to interpret some of my statements, so now I know how to clarify them.<P><B>Fit and Quality of a Marriage</B><P>We can use Keirsey as a model and decide we "fit" with someone on the basis of our Keirsey temperaments. You have pointed out in other posts that you believe that people really do separate into small numbers of classes (like Keirsey). <P>The Keirsey distributions are very broad. I would expect that there are millions of people out there in the general population who have all four parameters very close to mine. I assume that I fit my W enough to produce the "nonlinear explosion" of in-love feelings in her. There are millions of people out there similar enough to me to produce the same feelings, or stronger if they fit better. In fact, if the in-love feeling is really nonlinear (as you suggest), then the people who fit better are going to produce <B>much stronger</B> in-love feelings than I do.<P>This was the basis of my question about hopping from relationship to relationship. <P>If you find someone above the in-love threshold do you stop there and protect yourself from the "better fitters", OR, do you leave yourself open? <B>I submit</B>, that if you do not protect yourself, you will eventually meet a better fitter, then you will be in an interesting situation. <P>Another comment about fit: you did mention that fit represents potential for the marriage. I'm going to assume that to get the <B>best marriage</B> out of a given couple you still need behaviorism (ie MB principles) to build the maximum bond possible.<P><B>When do you leave a Marriage</B><P>This follows from the previous topic. People do purport to be able to measure "marital quality". The distributions run from terrible to fantastic, with most marriages falling in the middle. <P>Most here (and the Harley's as well) seem to agree that not all marriages are worth having. <B>I believe</B> you we each have to look at our own marriage and decide whether it is worth keeping. <P>I think this is what you meant, SnL, when you talked about choosing each other on a daily basis.<P>I disagree with your claim that marriages with good "fit" never have rough spots. I can post a link, if you like, about studies of longterm marriages which show that even marriages with the highest level of satisfaction had to survive down periods. <P><B>I think</B> that this means that when we evaluate our marriages that we do it after we make it the best it can be (by using MB principles, for example). We wouldn't really discard a marriage based on a bad day, or week (read PMS here-LOL), or month....<P><B>I personally</B> do not think it is <B>ever</B> ethical to leave a marriage in order to enter into a <B>perceived</B> better relationship with someone else. The thought comes to mind- why stop at the second one? <P>----- <B>real conjecture here, ignore if you like</B><BR>I am unable to tell if you are trying to leave your current marriage because if fails the quality test, OR, because you perceive that you could have a better marriage with OW. <BR>-----<P><B>My comment about "settling"</B><P>"Settling" <B>to me</B> means you aren't looking for a better relationship anymore, even though it's probably out there. At that point you make your current marriage the best it can be. Most of us "settle" at some point.<P><B>Happiness is multidimensional, in general</B><P>I stand by this statement, let me clarify.<P>During the time of my life when I was doing fulltime research, I was intensely happy. All I wanted to do was my research, feelings for my W were a very small part of my happiness. Many of the other scientists that I worked with seemed to behave the same way.<P>Now, I seem to have a different mix of priorities. They have evolved steadily over the years.<P>If it's multidimensional for me and one dimensional for you, then it can't be one dimensional in general. <P>The important thing here is that the Harleys are quick to point out that what matters is your "individual" makeup. <P>I guess I'm done now.<P>Jeffers<p>[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: jeffers ]

This just gets better and better. I am overwhelmed.<P>You have helped me see my WH in such a different light.<P>Thank you,<BR>Cali<P>BTW...I don't want to say that the love for the OP is right...because that's neither here nor there...but what do you think of this analogy...<P>When we have a child we love that child...when we have another child our love for that child does not diminish...we can have another and another and so on...and love for each child does not diminish...<P>We are socialized to believe that we must cleave to one person...we marry one person...to love another of the opposite sex in a romantic way is BAD....<P>WSs must, because of socialization, not love spouse because they love another...<P>Don't we get to a place where we decide, okay you love another...does it have to diminish your love for me? Then WH has to make a choice, because of socialization, to stay in marriage or not...<P>WS...I think that is your dilemma...your choice...not which to love...because as BS I have to believe you still love me and you love OP...but with which to build future...<P>Cali