Hello to all,<p>I hate to bring this up and I'll probably get flamed for this but...<p>There seems to be an alarming trend here lately, actually for quite a while, in which the focus often isn't on recovering a marriage or recovery of a person who is bitten by this disease of infidelity. (That may still be a recovery story of the individual person who has no option but to move on and use MB principles for the future to have a healthy and rewarding marriage.)<p>I shudder to think of a newbie coming on this site in sincerity looking for solutions to deal with their individual needs for recovery or to have a better marriage. Many of the threads are not about that at all.<p>This is a forum that's intended purpose was to do just that. It was intended to be a tool to use to make recovery possible, whether it was for a marriage or an individual person in need. This site was not intended to be a dating service, nor a place to just complain and get justifications of those complaints. There are plenty of other sites for that and there are other sites that have a much different approach the Marriage Builders to deal with a marriage.<p>I think each and everyone of us need to take a look at our posts, to remember the intended purpose of this site. Above all to remember that the words we post here affect the many people who are reading them.<p>Maybe we all need to go back and read "Surviving an Affair" or "His Needs, Her Needs"???? Then use that information here on this site to get back to the intended purpose.<p>I know that for me this site was a God send. My husband and I are into recovery and have a happy marriage again. In fact probably better marriages than we have ever had. This site and Dr. Harley's principles can work. We just have to apply them and encourage or advise people who post her in that manner.<p>I suggest for any one new, or people who are genuinely trying to get through this whole crummy situation to go to the following two forums and read the very old posts. <p>There is a wealth of information and banter back and forth that is in line with Harley's principles.<p>The following are the links...<p>The oldest archived threads!<p>Or...<p>the Read -Only Posts <p>I sure hope this helps someone, which is the purpose of this site.<p>Okay flame away. I have my flame retardant jump suit already on. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: A blessed Samantha ]</p>

Hi Sam,<P>Yes, your reminders are well founded. There have been less and less reference to the tools available here at MB. Even for the new ones. <P>I have seen these types of posts at least on 3 separate occasions since I have been here. I don't think you will be flamed, you are doing MB and MB readers a service. <P>Thanks for realigning our thinking and objectives. Sometimes we find ourselves getting tired and start to vent. Kinda like the onset of recovery when the BS gets tired and wants to give up. Like me, been there, doing that!!!<P>I take what you have said very seriously and will put more effort in this direction. <P>No Flame..... Just a hug<P>Again thanks.<BR>L.

Well hi there, Sam... and that's **some** sig line you have there -- it's longer than mine! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] And I thought mine was chock full o' info!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>You know, I'm sure, that I agree 100% with the intent of this thread.<P>Jeepers, I wrote one with almost this exact topic title about six months ago, didn't I? And before me, someone wrote about six months before that... it is a trend alright, and not a good one.<P>I have been flamed but good for even implying that someone who isn't using MB principles should not be here. I never want to judge... I try very hard not to... because Lord knows I've been "there" which is pretty much anywhere anyone around here has been. <P>But let's face it. This is called Marriage <B>BUILDERS</B> for a reason. Isn't this place about BUILDING MARRIAGES? I thought so. <P>The problem, as I see it, is that a whole bunch of us came on at the same time, and more than a handful of us went through divorce at the same time. We all ended up over on the Divorce Board (which I didn't really agree with when it was introduced, but did see a reason to have it when a spouse had tried everything to save a marriage and needed support during the divorce process). What's happened is that new people come and see a divorce board and go STRAIGHT THERE, without trying the concepts. <P>Gosh, I never want anyone to feel "not welcome"... I certainly have felt the sting of that here... but... even when I was blasted for my choices, I was quick to offer apologies when necessary, take responsibility for my actions, and remember the reason for this board -- marriage BUILDING... and know that it usually was not a personal attack. <P>I hope I'm making sense here... I'm kind of writing and writing... <P>Let's just say that I agree... <P>(((((Samantha)))))

Hi Sam and Sheryl!<P>Boy do I agree!! I think it ought to be a requirement that the "newbies" have to read so much of the "read-only posts". <P>I know that if I had just stumbled on this sight, I probably would have went to the divorce board first. I wouldn't have gotten all of the great info from some of the people who were here before me! MB and my friends here literally saved my life! If I hadn't learned about Plan A and tried to do it, I would have just sat and screamed at my now ex. What would that have gotten me? In the long run, I would have felt worse! I would have found out that I didn't do all that I could to save my marriage. <P>Now, my marriage was one that didn't need to be saved, BUT my sanity needed to be saved! <P>I hope that people sincerely read the info on this sight. I hope that they go back and read some of the old posts!<P>Mitzi [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi,<P>Well I am newer than all of you, and i did go to the D/D board first, but only because that is what my H wanted. But I had lurked here six months before posting, and so I had done all the required reading and felt pretty well versed in it all.<P>Sadly a lot of newbies don't do that. It is up to people here to read those first posts and if there is obviously no sign of prior reading to direct them to it.<P>I think while there are some here who are not following a Plan A or B, there are reasons for that...either they don't have a WS,but an abusive or alcoholic one, or they never have contact with spouses to practise Plan A. Or their marriage is OVER, but they want to learn new skills to use in their next or new relationship. I think that's okay. <P>What is NOT okay are the posts that say stuff like, kick him/her out on his a**, or yeah, use it as a dating board (which I don't see) and flaming when people are obviously in pain. In other words, disrespectful judgements.<P>True, the boards have been rather negative lately. It seems to me there are a lot of people having great difficulty in their relationships all at the same toime. Sad, but true.<P>Also I would venture to suggest that the current world climate has people on edge, and that it can come across in some posts, though they may not even realise it.<P>I live in Australia, and I would hate to live in the US right now. I would be feeling very insecure and threatened....add a poor relationship to that and you have tension plus.<P>Just my thoughts.<P>Love and light,<P>jacky

Jacky,<P>I understand what you're saying about the people who are in abusive relationships. <P>I was in one myself but when my ex left I still Plan A'd. If you want to get technical, I plan A'd for my whole marriage. When I do see my ex, which is rare, I still do a modified Plan A. Not for him but for me. I feel better about me when I'm nice to him. Plus my kids see that I can be civil even though he hurt me tremendously.<P>Mitzi [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I know what you mean Mitzi...I am actually Plan A'ing my own mother right now, so the concepts are useful for all relationships.<P>I would still plan A my H when I see him, if I hadn't gone into Plan B...and I did that to make myself fell better!<P>Take care!

Though I probably was not a "success story" since my marriage ended, I credit Marriage Builders with saving my sanity many times. I have found so much hope and caring here. While still trying to save my marriage, I tried to adhere to Harley's principles and I know how difficult it can be. I made friends here. I cried and tried to console here. This was my "safe" place to say what I felt.

I just want to add my own little link - I think it clears up a lot of what seems to be alot of confusion over what Plan A actually is.<P>Too many people are either trying to Plan Appease, or Plan Dump 'em.<P>This is an old thread by HGBrawner, and I thought it was fantastic. I also use the Chapman's book in my recovery with my H. My love language is physical touch, and his is acts of service. I love that way of looking at things.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/000219.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/000219.html</A>

Samantha,<P>I have noticed the trend also, especially on GQII. And I have only been around since January.<P>OneDay

A blessed Samantha - I wanted to add my voice to the chorus. I agree with your observations! <P> For me, I have found that going far back and following threads is absolutely invaluable in terms of seeing how the principles are applied as a situation progresses. It helps me to " look ahead", if possible, w additional clarity. <BR> <BR> For the past two weeks or so, I've been reviewing HGBrawner's posts (member # 321, I believe). I plan to continue with this "oldies review", if you will, because the conversations are in concert with the focus of this site.<P> For what it's worth.

Also a reminder that there are some WONDERFUL POSTS here --> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=000554" TARGET=_blank>Notable Posts/Threads</A><P> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Yep, you could say the boards are somewhat different than even when I first came. BUT, to say it is being used as a dating service, I think, is an injustice. I have been here since May. I have not had a single date because of being a member of MB with anyone here. Furthermore I have not been hit on by ANYONE on MB.<P> I think it is fine to post a thread reminding us ALL to use the tools that ARE MB. I do not think it is ok to jump on anyone for feeling desparate, or for venting. <P> And, as you say, this is a marriage BUILDING site. Should we ban the WSes like SNL, Lexxxy, and others for their inability(at the moment)to want that? What do we lose in the process? Very valuable insight, in my opinion.<P> One thing I have noticed, the boards are set up in stages, ie; Just Found Out, D/D, GQII, Recovery, etc, etc. My point is simply that yes you have a point, but remember that people in GQII are not at the same place in their relationship as people in recovery, or even D/D.<P> Sooooo, lighten up.... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <P> Please do not look at this as a flame. It is NOT intended to be.<P> jd<p>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: jdmac1 ]

I agree with ABS. Six months ago this forum had a lot of helpful insights. As of late, it has turned into a rant/rave and poll center. I have seen a lot of bad advice given also. Some folks here have no moral compass or base. Someone experienced in infidelity or divorce does not necessarily make them an expert anymore than someone caught in a house fire makes them a chemist or physicist in heat energy. Most people want an instant fix in this forum. But the first realization should be is that infidelity lasts a lifetime. Like death, you just learn to live with it in one way or another. The eternal question is why would my spouse want to commit adultery? The simple answer is because sin is fun. But unfortunately the very nature of sin is destruction. And if you don't believe in sin, what do you believe in?

I have to disagree somewhat. I still receive insightful, encouraging advice here. I also try to give the same. I am here because I truly want to use the principles here to recover and restore my marriage. I think that no matter where you go, there will be people who are not using sites as they were intended, but for the most part, I see people here who are hurting, and people who are helping those that are hurting. This is the General Questions II forum, after all. Which I guess to me means questions...be they good or bad...about what people are going through. I also think that this should be a place to vent, as it is not so healthy when trying to recover a marriage (especially when a WS is in the fog) to vent to them. I always thought this was a safe place to do that. And, after venting, be gently reminded by folks here, that all of the pain of the situation, as well as pain of changes suffered will be worth it in the end, whether or not the marriage survives. I have learned, and continue to learn so many good things here. I don't see it as an alarming trend. I see it as an unfortunate time here, in that there are too many new people all faced with the pain of an A at the same time. We need to be able to vent, in order to learn. Of course, I've only been here since June, but I think I've seen MUCH more good here than the bad that you speak of. <P>MOM

Hi! I have been thinking about this thread very carefully, because I don't want to seem like I'm flaming. sighhhhh.... so I'm going to do my best here to get out my thoughts.<P>Lately, my taker has been taking over, and I haven't had the energy to respond much to others. We all know how this goes... depending on what's going on in our personal situations.<P>ANother thought is that yes, there seems to be some cliques on this forum - as there are EVERYWHERE in life. THat's human nature. You get to know the stories of certain ones, perhaps came on around the same time, or have certain situations you can relate with.... and sometimes it's hard to make the effort to comfort someone you're not familiar with, or make the effort to learn their story. It hurts my feelings to see lots and lots of replies to some people, and not many to my own. I'm sure lots of people feel this way. Especially when I see old-timers responding to certain people, and not to me. This is a normal cycle of groups of people, I think, so I try to accept it, and do what I can to make it different by MY actions and posts.<P>I'd like to thank ANYONE - old or new - for reminding us to stick to MB principles. YES!! THat is what we need to do. I totally agree. <P>O.K. here's the part I'm trying to be careful with... please take this with some understanding of what I'm trying to say. There's lots of older members that DON'T post much. HARDLY EVER, as a matter of fact. When this happens, the tradition of MB principles, and the type of guidance and support needed, is NOT passed along. It must be demonstrated by example. If you SEE a thread you don't like, say something. If you see BAD advice being given, say something. But to sit around and read, and then come on and fuss at us, is not very productive. TEACH by example. Come on every now and then and GUIDE the new people to those old threads that can be so useful. New people don't know what to go look for if they're not told. There's thousands of old posts.... how can they know where to go?? We should guide them to certain topics or member-postings that would help them in their situation.<P>Tell me something and I'll remember it for an hour. Show me and I'll remember if for a day. Do something WITH me and I'll remember if for a lifetime.<P>The only other thought I have is our society in general is moving towards an "instant gratification" mentality. New folks often come on looking for immediate answers and/or relief to their problems. So this affects the whole tone of the board as well.<P>And I don't think the dating thing is a problem at all. THe one recent thread that was reprimanded by Temptest might have gotten out of hand, but was intended as harmless fun and joking, I believe.<P>Well, I hope I made some sense. I just wanted to try to get my opinion out here - right or wrong. Thanks again for reminding us to stick to the principles. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Gosh...Faith1...thanks for putting into words what I was thinking...but for a change couldn't find the words...I've had a lot to deal with lately...<p>I try to put into effect not only the MB principals...but also my four agreements...<p>Sometimes I just feel overwhelmed when a spate of new folks arrive...I also try to make them feel welcomed and give what advise I can...<p>At first I felt targeted because sometimes I start threads that are off MB topics...some just for fun...some just to unload...these people have become my friends and sometimes it is nice to just 'chat' or be able to 'vent' to them...<p>Like Faith1, I appreciate so much when an old-timer posts to me...I will never forget Whodat posting to me this summer...he basically single-handedly got me to stop my path to self-destruction with his comment of "did I want to be right or married."<p>Samantha...Thank you for reminding us to stay true to MB...<p>Cali<p>[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: JustPlainCali ]</p>

No offense to anyone here at all but for one thing, I miss Mike AKA Waiting for Her. He had a way of getting me back on track when I sank into the "blues", He didn't just tell what I needed to do, but truly offered ideas about what to do. <P>I have received all kinds of advice here and yes I'm guilty of heading straight to D/D board and camping out. I did however read all the Harley material and have been encouraged my many on this board to seek God's wisdom. That is truly the only way to recovery even if we tend to forget it.<P>Good reminder for all. BTW I have noticed the change in this forum lately also. <P>just my $.02<P>PP

Hell, most of y'all know me - I don't care if I get flamed [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I was getting ready to do a post on this very subject.<P>I can certainly see your point, Samantha. I have noticed this trend also. Marriage Builders has become VERY popular lately - this is a wonderful thing. I've seen the banner for MB on quite a few other websites that I visit. When I started here a couple of years ago, the only way people knew about this website was by reading one of the Harley books. Therefore, most everybody that came into these forums could tell you the top ten EN's, Plan A, and Plan B in their sleep. Now, a lot of people see the banner, click on it, and jump headfirst right into the forums without getting familiar with the MB concepts. They're just excited because they've found people who they can relate to, people who are in the same position that they are.<P>Now don't get me wrong - I'm happy to see so many people coming here. These people are in tough positions, and want to find out how to make their marriages work. I'd love to see more "old-timers" posting to these folks - we've been around the block (a few times), and we can point people in the right direction. We can help so many people because <B>we have all been there.</B><P>Personally, I think that the moderators should make knowing the Basic Concepts a prerequisite for registration to MB (that would eliminate probably all of those TOW idiots that we get every six months or so - but that's a whooooole other post!)<P>As far as "cliques" go, I don't think that any of that is intentional. People are more apt to respond to somebody they either have "known" for a long time, or whose situation is close enough to theirs to where they feel they can contribute something worthwhile. Over the past year or so, I've seen newbies complain a lot about these cliques - then you look at their profile, and they've never, ever posted on somebody else's thread! The more people that you try to help, the more help you'll get when you really, really need it. I've started monster threads, and I've had topics that only received a couple of responses. Big deal. Instead of being upset about not getting 25 responses, make the most out of the responses that you <B>did</B> get, and be sure to pass on your wisdom to others. Give and ye shall receive! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Carolina Belle ]

So, I did a little search, and lo and behold, the thread I began had almost the same exact title - LOL - and was begun in April, 2001... yep, six months ago... <P>Here's the link --> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=008311" TARGET=_blank>Click Here</A><P>Just an FYI... if you have the time to read. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]