I'm looking for objective second opinions on a letter I'm going to give to my W. It's not a Plan B letter, more of a mid-Plan A letter. I'm most interested if I've unintentionally done any LB in it....<p>Dear (W),<p>I’m trying to cut down on the number of letters, you do realize I hope. But I think it’s important to communicate, so here comes another one. If you need a break from them, just set them aside for a while – that’s fine. Some of it you’ve heard before, but whatever I say I hope is relevant currently. My motivation for this one is just basically thinking about your thoughts and things you’ve said to me – distilling your emotions. And it’s my belief in the “Policy of Radical and Instant Honesty.”<p>I really hope you take to heart the scenario I provided to you, (W). It’s what I hope for in many ways, and it’s very achievable. It’s not based on material goods – the only thing I mentioned along those lines was a nice yard. It’s based on what’s really important to me as a person. It’s based on having a happy relationship with someone. It’s about a relationship that contains all the elements of life, put into balance. It’s about living the way I – I think we – would like to. Don’t doubt that it can’t be achieved either. If you do, I’d love to know why. And I know (OM) has similar visions. I know I ask for something that seems too little, too late to you. But it’s not just words on paper – it’s all based on principles.<p>I’d also like to talk for a moment about trust. I come to this because we haven’t talked about it a lot between ourselves yet.<p>First, there’s the trust you have for me – can I really change? All I can do is continue to demonstrate change. It’s not something that can happen completely and instantly. But it is something that I really, honestly want to achieve. As I change, the old ways become more and more repulsive to me. I hate to think of the way I was. I know you like to see the way I’m becoming – it’s slow, but sure and true. Each day you’re here, the easier it becomes.<p>Second, there’s the trust I have for you – you might wonder if I can ever trust you again. The short answer is “yes.” The longer answer is more complex. I had always given you infinite trust, beyond that which was probably reasonable for most people. I now realize that trust is something like an emotional bank account – it can go up with demonstrations of commitment, and down with demonstrations of deceit. Right now, it’s pretty low, I must admit. But it can go up. And I believe it can grow tremendously – to a level maybe as great as before. But as with anything in life, it requires time and work. It would be necessary with anyone else too.<p>Third, there’s the trust you have for yourself – can you really change yourself? Well, this one is important regardless of outcome and you know it. Unless you feel there’s something specific about me that’s flawed. If so, what would it be? If I treat you like you deserve, with kindness and attention as I’ve shown I can, would you still mistrust yourself? If so, you really need to find out why, because I will treat you as well as I can until the day I die if you allow me. And if you still feel the need to be with someone else, I have to admit defeat on this one, I suppose. But there’d have to be some reason at the core of that onion – please find it and tell me – I deserve to know.<p>Fourth, there’s the trust I have for myself – can I really change myself and allow myself to forgive and let go? I have to or I become a bitter person by default. I can’t accept that. Life is too damn short. Period.<p>I’d like to revisit my scenario for a moment. In it, life is not boring – it’s made exciting by both of us. We do things that we like, that we find fun. It’s not based on routine. It’s not based on co-dependence. And it involves continuous growth on all sides of the principles-centered triangle. There’s nothing off the table with it – it’s unlimited in scope.<p>Another topic is your desire for independence. I know you feel you can’t have it with me. Why? Why not with me but with someone else? You will need to find a way to integrate it into any future relationship – me or not. Or you will be short-changed, (W), because we all need it on some level. I didn’t realize how much it’s important to me too.<p>(W), you have to know that I believe we can overcome this to a point where we’re better and stronger. That means that it’s history, not to be used as a weapon – by either of us. You know I’m not the kind of person to use weapons of mass destruction – you know I don’t go out of my way to hurt you or anyone else on the face of this Earth for that matter. I honestly believe that a marriage that goes through this and survives is proof that anything is possible. And it becomes part of the past, there to stay.<p>I want to also make note of something explicitly. Although I’m going to try and meet all of your emotional needs for as long as you’ll let me, there’s some that I can’t do so without your co-operation including affection and sexual fulfillment. I feel like I need to point this out for some reason, although it’s obvious. You know I can meet these in spades – so I won’t talk about it anymore. You can use your imagination.<p>If you see me acting selfish, disrespectful or angry, please tell me (W). I’ve used these kinds of things in the past to grate away at our love, and I regret it terribly. You can tell me what you want, what you need, how you feel, etc. You should be a partner in the “Policy of Radical and Instant Honesty.”<p>And I also want to formally ask forgiveness for my shortcomings. I don’t expect it right now. But as unworthy as I am, I still seek it. We all seek our ultimate forgiveness, our ultimate value. By asking you, I begin the process.<p>All my Love,

JR,<p>here's some objective feedback for you on your letter. I couldn't answer in detail on the whole thing - it was really too long - so I've just responded on the first few paragraphs. <p>You said 'I&#8217;m trying to cut down on the number of letters, you do realize I hope. But I think it&#8217;s important to communicate, so here comes another one. If you need a break from them, just set them aside for a while &#8211; that&#8217;s fine.'<p>This is an LB - you&#8217;re stating your intent and affirming it isn&#8217;t wanted by your wife. You&#8217;re also telling her that you think it&#8217;s important to communicate and whether she wants it or not, in this form or not, tough luck, here it is. What you could try is something like this:<p>I&#8217;m trying to cut down on the number of letters I write you but I need to communicate how I&#8217;m feeling and what I want. Writing really helps me focus and express myself.<p>You said 'Some of it you&#8217;ve heard before, but whatever I say I hope is relevant currently. My motivation for this one is just basically thinking about your thoughts and things you&#8217;ve said to me &#8211; distilling your emotions. And it&#8217;s my belief in the &#8220;Policy of Radical and Instant Honesty.&#8221;' <p>This is an LB and you might be wasting her time. Distilling her emotions sounds very manipulative and controlling you&#8217;re also suggesting that she doesn&#8217;t believe in telling the truth but you do. What you could say is:<p>There is a danger that I&#8217;ll repeat myself but my motivation is an honest one. I&#8217;m trying to understand our situation and some aspects have me confused, especially your emotions and how you feel.<p>You said 'I really hope you take to heart the scenario I provided to you, (W). It&#8217;s what I hope for in many ways, and it&#8217;s very achievable. It&#8217;s not based on material goods &#8211; the only thing I mentioned along those lines was a nice yard. It&#8217;s based on what&#8217;s really important to me as a person.'<p>This is an LB &#8211; you&#8217;re making a judgement that she may not have taken what you said to heart. You&#8217;re judging her in that she may feel material goods are not important. <p>It&#8217;s based on having a happy relationship with someone. It&#8217;s about a relationship that contains all the elements of life, put into balance. It&#8217;s about living the way I &#8211; I think we &#8211; would like to. Don&#8217;t doubt that it can&#8217;t be achieved either. If you do, I&#8217;d love to know why. And I know (OM) has similar visions. I know I ask for something that seems too little, too late to you. But it&#8217;s not just words on paper &#8211; it&#8217;s all based on principles. <p>She is doubting that having a happy, balanced relationship with you is possible. It&#8217;s also a big LB to talk about the OM. It raises the question in her mind that if you both have the same to offer, which one would she choose.<p>I read the rest of the letter and it goes pretty much the same way. You deal with the issues of trust judgementally and in a controlling way. This may be a big LB for her.<p>Sorry, but I wouldn&#8217;t send this letter to your wife. I&#8217;d seriously sit down and think about where you&#8217;re going with this. A good Plan A should avoid LBs whilst addressing the areas where you&#8217;ve been behaving badly in the relationship.<p>Sorry again, but that&#8217;s my two cents worth.
test

J.R.,<p>You should tell us a little more of your story here. You've mentioned in some of your other posts (they're really scattered around [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) that your W is not interested in counseling, or even communicating with you much at all. <p>I agree with Freddy, this letter contains lots of LBs. It seems like you're using the whole letter to "educate" her, quickly. Slow waaayy down. Use this letter to tell her how you feel. Period! And, make it a lot shorter. It feels like a lecture to me (and very condescending).<p>I have lots of communication problems with my W, too. It really turns her off when I mention "we need to POJA this". She doesn't mind doing it but, when I say the words "policy of joint agreement" I think I come off as superior or something - like I know the answer and she just needs to listen to me.<p>You can implement "Honesty and Openness" by being honest and open. You can ask questions about her feelings (if she'll let you, don't push it). DO NOT tell her "we need to be open and honest". This is the way Plan A works. She has to learn by observing you, you can't teach. It takes a long time.<p>BTW, I was only able to communicate feelings to my W through letters. It helped cut out my fear of confrontation. I'm really trying hard to do these things, rather than say we need to do them.<p>Good Luck,<p>Jeffers

JR - sorry to pile on, but I have to repeat what I said in the other thread, you should back off a little bit. The pressure on her is obvious from this letter.<p>Letters and emails are great, because you can carefully craft what you say, sleep on it for a couple days, show it here first, etc. But less is more. Make sure that she won't miss the important points. Don't put in anything negative that she can fixate on, instead of your positive message.<p>Completely avoid rehashing your history, defending your past actions, defending your viewpoints. Like Freddy and jeffers said, don't try to educate her with what you've learned. Steve Harley says the same thing.<p>There's also a chapter in the new book Divorce Remedy that really explains the need to stop pushing so hard. It will drive your wife right out. You are expressing things that she can't reciprocate right now, and that will create stress.<p>Maybe a mid plan-A letter is called for. Maybe a brief statement that you love her, want to make the marriage work, and you will try and make her feel more comfortable while she decides what to do. That this will be difficult for you, and you want to know when you've done something to upset her, or if you're pushing too hard. That she could let you know in writing or by email, if that's easier.<p>- Tom

I'll try to be brief with some background - realize I didn't provide much..<p>Married at 23, now 31, W was 21. No kids yet. Recently moved to a new city, W got a new job in January. She met someone there in about April, started an EA maybe in about May or June. Revealed in early September. Was a shocker for me - appeared to be happy. I responded typically - lots of emotion. But I quickly cooled off, got into a mode where I was willing to accept her reasons and was willing to work on us.<p>Over the last 2 months, more and more has come out. She had another A starting before we were married and continuing after for about a year. We started therapy with separate sessions about 3-4 weeks ago. I came across MB just recently.<p>She works closely with the OM, and loves her current job. We moved 2000 miles for it. She now claims she loves OM too.<p>She's been waffling about what to do - stay or go. She's admitted that her "head" tells her to stay, but her heart doesn't know what it wants. I've been walking on egg-shells, not wanting to come across as pressuring, LB'ing, but also knowing that I can't make progress without some level of communication and addressing issues - she's not willing to reveal her EN, or even admit that I can fill them (that would pre-suppose a commitment to "us"). She blames most of this on herself and keeps trying to say that I'm a good person, but still wants to go. She's made herself emotionally distant from me, but is still willing to spend time with me and appears happy when I do kind things for her or show "promise". She's cut off affection / sex.<p>She's openly admitted she wishes she could have both myself and the OM. She's very aware that there's many, many problems in being with the OM. She admits she doesn't love him like she loves me. Some of her big fears in staying is for whether my changes will last, whether we will slip back into "old ways", will live a boring life (new guy is "fun"), etc. Some of her biggest fears in going are the uncertainty and in losing me, frankly (I've told her that we couldn't maintain contact, etc.). We do talk quite openly about things, and this letter would be something she'd be quite willing to read, and we'd talk about it a bit, but I agree - too "preachy". That's why I put it up, to get some sober second thought. I realize now I've been LB'ing at times, even when I thought I was avoiding it. I've been trying hard to be patient and kind - no arguing at all.<p>I guess part of my problem is wanting to attack the whole problem at once and solve it all - as tends to be my way! I realize I can't do that, though. Small bites, no LB. Reflective listening. Change myself. Work in my circle of influence. Since I've only really discovered the whole Plan A/B concept recently, I guess I've been doing a busted Plan A till now. I'm going to work on a solid Plan A going forward. I can see myself doing it for as long as I can. If she decides to go, I'll default to B - my feelings will allow that at this stage.<p>I think I'll rework the letter into smaller chunks, focus more on my feelings, and use it as a framework for discussion more than a lecture. But it does contain the nuggets of things I think need to get addressed somehow, some way - so I'll need to do some more thinking on how to approach it.<p>Thanks for the replies - I knew it'd help!

J.R., <p>The extra info helps, a lot.<p>You'll find, as you read here more, that your story is very similar to others. The feature in your favor is that your W does not seem to have lost her love for you, that's why she says she wants you both.<p>One of the things you need to do is go back up to the main site and read everything. If you've already read it, read it again! A very good thing to do is click on the "Marriage Talk Radio" link and listen to Dr. Harley himself. Also read the posts in this thread General Welcome for All New Builders .<p>I'm suggesting this so that you slooowww down and realize the inevitability of this whole process. You are not in control. The only thing you can actually do is drive your W away while the affair runs its course. For a problem solver this is a hard realization.<p>In some ways you really are in a competition right now (with OM). She's even telling you this. If you can, find out what she does with him that is so "fun". Can she do those things with you instead of him? You have to be subtle here, no "me or him" ultimatums.<p>Like you say, she isn't sure she wants to "work on" the marriage. Don't waste your time laying out issues you think you "need to work on" even just to lay the groundwork. Even if you think they are "nuggets" of gold. She isn't to that point yet. It will only emphasize more that OM is "fun" and you aren't. Save that stuff until after she commits to the marriage again.<p>Talk about how you feel about her, if she can stand that (some can't). Get her to talk about the things she likes about your relationship - or used to like if she thinks things have changed.<p>The common complaint is that the WS doesn't think you can really change. You can only prove this by doing it, not saying it -- and it takes a long time.<p>Try to spend more time together. This obviously has two effects: she can see the changes in you and she spends less time with OM (although it's not clear she spends nonwork time w/OM). <p>After I found out about MB I tried to apply what I had learned in earnest, my W later said I was smothering her. I followed her around to give her continuous affection, I would drop what I was doing and stare at her when she make the slightest sound so I wouldn't miss a chance to fill her conversion EN. I did this for about a month - I'm sure it kinda little eerie. Then my brain kicked in again and I toned down a bit - she liked that much better.<p>You seem to understand the MB approach. Mostly, you make changes in yourself and then you wait. Patience is a big virtue here.<p>Jeffers