SNL;<p>Remember me the idealist? We have a lot in common....so I'm going to ask you some questions and some "what ifs"<p>SNL, What if your basic Maslow's Hierarchy needs are met? Should that be enough? Are we due more? Should we expect more? How far up on the needs Hieraracy do we escalate?<p>SNL, What if your spouse doesn't fall on the same step for Maslow's needs as you do? <p>What if his, say, his value is the pursuit of money and your pursuit is closeness in relationships? Do you school him? Do you try to convince him or lead by example?<p>SNL, Do you think near perfection can be attained in a relationship? <p>How do you evaluate your progress? What progress is enough?<p>What if you have experienced a paradigm shift and your spouse doesn't recognize that shift? Are you justified in leaving the relationship? <p>SNL, What if you are never satisfied in a relationship? <p>I'm anxious to know your thoughs.<p>C&I....apparently becoming more so....<p>PS...obviously had some problems with editing..am in a hurry....yes, I recognized some Freudian's in here..<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: confused&insecure ]<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: confused&insecure ]<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: confused&insecure ]<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: confused&insecure ]</p>

C&I...SNL, What if your basic Maslow's Hierarchy needs are met? Should that be enough? Are we due more? Should we expect more? How far up on the needs Hieraracy do we escalate?<p>snl...Let's see, that's the guy that says each layer of needs has to be met before we can focus on the next I think.<p>http://www.hcc.hawaii.edu/intranet/committees/FacDevCom/guidebk/teachtip/maslow.htm<p>Not sure what you mean by the question, I think for full success as a human being, the whole pyramid of needs is required. It is very interesting that he stresses the need to choose the "right" mate. That is very different than making the "marriage" (to anyone) the focus. I pretty much agree with maslows model, it is intuitively obvious, and I had pretty much come to similar (albeit not as specific) conclusions long ago.<p>C&I...SNL, What if your spouse doesn't fall on the same step for Maslow's needs as you do?<p>snl...That is a good question, maslow (like MB, or any other "explanation") is just a model, not messy real life. I would say if people fit part of the bond is helping each other along the pyramid, this is in effect an egalitarian marriage (the only kind that makes any sense IMO). To the degree one spouse is not in equality the other spouse is more and more in a caretaking or dependentcy role....the extreme of which is sacrificial marriage. In general human psychology does not do well in sacrificial mode, and sacrificial marriages are awful. One part is essentially emotional property and is entirely stripped of self-worth, they exist only to serve the other. A violation of everything it means to be human. And since God made us this way, I do not think we should deny our basic natures. <p>C&I...What if his, say, his value is the pursuit of money and your pursuit is closeness in relationships? Do you school him? Do you try to convince him or lead by example?<p>snl...I do not believe in changing a person (or yourself) to match another. I do not think it is possible, and further I think it is harmful to try. Lastly...why? Why would we do this to each other anyways, what is the point? People are of course not that one-dimensional (although it seems like it sometimes, usually such an individual has a personality disorder, and is not marriage material....no matter how benign the obsession, one can be "too" nice as well). I do not think people with different worldview can be successfully married (if we define successful as deeply bonded, totally vulnerable to each other, completely trustworthy and safe with the other).<p>C&I...SNL, Do you think near perfection can be attained in a relationship? <p>snl...Yes I do (depends on exactly how you define perfection though, nothing is absolutely perfect). I think people are way to quick to give up on life thinking the marriage they have is the best they can do. Given our poor training (and skills) in mate selection, I think it is far more likely we make a poor marital choice the first time, than making a good choice. People are fairly adapatable though, and given sufficient motivation can convince themselves they have the "right" person, when in fact it is only fear and emotional inertia that keeps people together. There is a huge fear of divorce, don't really know why, it is no different than any other major growth experience, and one should do fine if they learned their lessons well. If along the way they grow and find they truly do love in an egalitarian way their dysfunctional spouse, terrific, but to if it is not egalitarian, or even worse a dependentcy, I cannot see how that is a good thing (from a mental health standpoint). One can only wonder (and lament) the enormous loss of human potential that occurs as people put all their emotional energy into maintaining a marginal marriage, never blossoming into the human being, a bonded synergistic marriage would unfold.<p>C&I....How do you evaluate your progress? What progress is enough?<p>snl...This is hard to assess, cause we have such little experience, usually getting married young, often isolated in lonely unfullfilled marriages, (often with controlling individuals, locked in a toxic dominance/submissive dance) but nothing to compare against. It is almost a bootstrap operation. One goes through stages.<p>1. someone realizes they are just existing, that there is no joy with spouse, (folks usually shift focus to kids, family, friends, social advocacy, etc.). They even may realize they feel 'bad" about themselves. This doesn't mean they think ill of spouse, this is about themself.<p>2. Folks usually start asking others about their marriages, reading books, etc, realizing that not everyone lives their lives walking on eggshells, or being mom/dad to spouse etc. etc.<p>This is kinda the awakening phase, it usually leads to relationship "talks", counselling, marriage weekends, and so forth. If things are really ok, and just need a little tweak, this might fix things.<p>3. But more likely someone digs in their heels and the manipulation starts. It seems far to often marriages consist of a dominant/controller type person and a submissive/accomodating type person. The submissive is the one who gets disillusioned cause they are the one dieing, the other is not healthy either, they just don't know it, but is satisfied with the status quo. This used to confuse me, it just seemed so evil. But too many of these folks are clearly not evil, and are often well thought of, well-liked, successful, even good parents, they just are hell on their spouse's well-being. Even their spouse often admires them. The problem is more complex than simply not caring, or being some evil controller, the problem is poor fit. The spouses do not have the same psychological profiles (same meaning similar/compatible), this is becoming more and more clear via large scale temperament models and studies. They essentially do not speak the same language. They literaly judge love, marriage, bonding, and such by different standards. Once exposed, with enough motivation, and hard work people can learn each others languages, IF they are close enough to start with. And so we enter the world of MB and similar approaches to marital conflict resolution.<p>4. If that works, fine, everyone goes home and lives happily ever after. But many times it does not, can not, will not ever. And that brings one to a moral crisis. Such a marriage will always benefit one more than the other, the "content" one will "fight" to preserve the marriage, but you can only get progress by threatening to leave (in one form or another). This is makes for very unhappy campers. Outwordly the world says gee karen... gee Jack, you have it so good, why aren't you happy? They don't GET it, and they make the unhappy person feel all guilty and selfish for not accepting someone elses assessment they should be happy. If you find yourself asking why am I not happy, that means you have a problem. If you vigorously try to bury these feelings, just see your spouses "good" points, try to convince yourself their is something wrong with you, take anti-d drugs to "cope", then you are in a marriage that does not fit. Your subconcious, is screaming at you, this is not good, you are dieing, DO SOMETHING. So people do a few things, get angry, live a seperate life, but married (armed neutrality), fall in love (with someone else)....all because divorce is unacceptable. You made a vow, and by gosh you are gonna keep it even if it kills you....well, call me a heretic, but IMO that is not what vows are for.<p>5. Another thing about crisis, or pushing hard on a spouse, is you find out what they are really made of, what is behind the mask, what they are hiding. I LOVE LOVE LOVE radical honesty, it has saved my life. I did not know how to handle the huge conflict between my feelings and my programming (marriage is inviolate). The conflict was killing me inside, that was the key. Radical honesty and poja takes you to the truth. If both parties do not enthusiastically choose the marriage (and radical honesty requires they dig deep and reveal their true feelings) then maybe they should end it, if not, they accept that the less enthusiastic party is essentially an emotional slave. IMO marriage is simply the legal framework our culture uses to facillitate the bonding human beings do. The bonding can be a quid pro quo, meet each others EN enough to continue, accepting the special passion, the spark, will never be there, we call that love, caring, agape......... or the bonding can be the oneflesh, the other half, the totally vulnerable safe kind of connection we call in-love, the passionate love described in the Bible (song of solomon), AND the agape love in 1st Corinthians. It is a choice, we have freewill. The problem is acute when one who is willing to settle, is married to one who chooses passion. That is an irreconcilable difference.<p>How do you know....Well there are some thought questions, some are brutal, but if one answers them honestly, they give you an idication.<p>a. Would you be happy or rejected if your spouse told you they wanted out of marriage, or found someone else.<p>b. Do you care all that much if spouse is with you or not....... or worse yet, look forward to when they are gone (to work, errands, their own hobbies, whatever). People in-love are hooked at the hip, they hate being apart and mark time by when they are next together. They talk to each other often on phone when apart, etc.<p>c. Do you look positively at the possibility of a new relationship with another?<p>d. Do you find yourself unable to find much to talk about when alone with spouse? (other than mundane routine stuff). Or worse, don't even really care to make the effort.<p>e. Do you passionately desire them (not sex necessarily), but love sitting close, love waking up next to them, have some body part (foot, hand, back) touching while sleeping, etc.<p>f. Do not want to grow old together, are scared of being old together, and maybe dependent on them.<p>g. Would be sad, and regret their dying, but would not really be that hard to recover from. Or worse, look at it as a release (one much more acceptable than divorce).<p>h..... well you get the point, these are not fun contemplations, but they bypass our cognitive denials re our lack of desire for marriage, and explore the emotional truths of our bond. Bonded people do not feel these ways....ever. Nor do they have to banish such thoughts immediately to the gulag.<p>Progress is measured by where you are in this process, which way you are moving (or not moving at all), and how hard you are trying to deny you really do not want to be there.<p>C&I....What if you have experienced a paradigm shift and your spouse doesn't recognize that shift? Are you justified in leaving the relationship? <p>snl....Yes. But it is unlikely people in-love will ever experience a paradigm shift making them want to leave IMO. They are part of you, any paradigm shifts will affect you both, and be ok. What happens instead is the majority of marriages are dependentcy's, or contractural quid pro quos, and they are put into crisis by the paradigm shift (or more accurately, someone wakes up and tries to reconcile their heart and their mind). If the other party is agreeable to amending the contract they may survive. But oft times the paradigm shift is that one realizes they made a marital error, there is no recovery possible. The alternative is to make divorce (and affairs) punishable by death, and force everyone to make the ill-advised choice of youth your only choice. Of course then people would be far more careful about who they marry methinks.<p>C&I....SNL, What if you are never satisfied in a relationship?<p>snl....I think this is a red herring for the most part. There is a huge difference between being mismatched (temperament, worldview, basic psychology), and being matched. Humans are not wired for perfection. I think we can match a certain sub-set of our species, and within that set we will be "satisfied"........someone who seeks perfection suffers (by definition) a personality disorder, hopefully they will not marry anyone, and/or we will all be perceptive enough not to marry such people. <p>C&I....apparently becoming more so....<p>snl...That is the start C&I, as you come to realize there is more to this than simply just "do it", love is just a "decision", it gets very confusing. Not to mention even asking such questions often earns us the ire of our rules oriented brethern. But psychological realities do not go away just cause we want to deny them, and for some of us the need to understand is well..... a need I guess. But truthfully, I do think we really do need to do some reality checks, and realize that choosing a mate right or wrong has consequences, ones we cannot escape. If we are going to pay a price, we should at least know what it is methinks (be it staying or leaveing a troubled marriage). While nothing is for sure, we can certainly do a lot more toward understanding all this stuff than we do. I sort of understand, but still puzzles me, why people are so reluctant to peel back the onion and face the truth about themselves and their current mates. Trying to fix a marriage, without understanding if it should even be a marriage first, confuses me, seems like putting the cart before the horse......further thinking we should just settle by default to whoever we are married too, diminishes the value of human relationships, regulating marriage to nothing more than happenstance of dating, and very shallow understanding of what human bonding is about. It is no wonder so many marriages are lonely, or end in divorce, or experience affairs, or any of a number of other marital dysfunctions. I find it almost impossible to understand how people can be married, say they love each other, yet not even be able to connect on the most basic levels. Hurt each other, ignore each other, neglect each other.....and we just say they do not know "how" to meet needs........I don't think so, I think for the most part they just are not motivated cause they do not fit. I don't think passion is a fleeting emotion of youth, I think it is also the fire of mature love, and when it is absent people are not in-love. Whether one insists on being in-love as a condition of marriage is an individual choice we each make, but the most successful marriages are in-love, by any standard we care to name.

SNL,<p>Interesting views...thought provoking. Initially, I have but one question/comment.<p>You stated: <p>2. Folks usually start asking others about their marriages, reading books, etc, realizing that not everyone lives their lives walking on eggshells, or being mom/dad to spouse etc. etc.<p>This is kinda the awakening phase, it usually leads to relationship "talks", counselling, marriage weekends, and so forth. If things are really ok, and just need a little tweak, this might fix things.<p>But I'm oft seeing that this "phase" with the "talks" is missing in many of these posts (and in my particular situation as well). It seems as if all these steps may be occuring, EXCEPT this one and the BS just gets slapped in the face one day with an "I love you, but not IN LOVE".<p>Basically, my thought is that shouldn't one be afforded the opportunity, doesn't the WS OWE to oneself, as well as to the BS this courtesy (if indeed there was ever any love). How/why is it that this is being skipped, and how can it (and by whom should it- probably not the BS because it will be discounted) be approached.<p>Thanks,
Kevin

snl...2. Folks usually start asking others about their marriages, reading books, etc, realizing that not everyone lives their lives walking on eggshells, or being mom/dad to spouse etc. etc.<p>This is kinda the awakening phase, it usually leads to relationship "talks", counselling, marriage weekends, and so forth. If things are really ok, and just need a little tweak, this might fix things.<p>Kevin...But I'm oft seeing that this "phase" with the "talks" is missing in many of these posts (and in my particular situation as well). It seems as if all these steps may be occuring, EXCEPT this one and the BS just gets slapped in the face one day with an "I love you, but not IN LOVE".<p>snl...These are just generalities kevin, life is rich in diversity. Many times people do attempt this phase and are rejected by spouse (they won't cooperate). My w and I did this for years, hundreds of hours of counselling, seminars, endless relationship talks etc. But others may only pause briefly. Also I did not talk about affairs arising out or personality disorders (which are many), I am more interested in "fitting" of otherwise "normal" folks who as individuals general conduct themselves well, it is as a couple they experience problems, a sort of negative synergy.<p>Kevin...Basically, my thought is that shouldn't one be afforded the opportunity, doesn't the WS OWE to oneself, as well as to the BS this courtesy (if indeed there was ever any love).<p>snl...Yes I do think there is fairplay, and acting in a fair manner is ethical. I do not think one can (nor should) artificially prevent the circumstances that may lead to loving feelings for another. But if you should find yourself in such circumstances, and explore it, you incur a consequence to the bs. It is a difficult area, love is never a bad thing, nor should we try to bind each other, relationships should be freely chosen and renewed everyday, the notion of gaurantees disturbs me. I do not want someone to love me cause they owe me, I want them to choose me above all others, everyday, and I am willing to take the risk they won't one day (by not binding them with rules). But one does incur obligations to treat a spouse respectively, and maintaining a secret relationship indefinitely is not respectful.<p>kevin...How/why is it that this is being skipped, and how can it (and by whom should it- probably not the BS because it will be discounted) be approached.<p>snl...Like most things, ones peers have some authority. I regularly opine against secrecy (not ever telling), and I support the MB doctrine that an affair must end or the ws must leave. There is a time frame for this, it can take a while, but one should be moving toward no contact, or seperating from spouse. It is just not right to subject a spouse to your A activities as some sort of right or something. IMO ws who attempt to do so (beyond a reasonable plan a effort, and time to break it off in their own way) need to be dealt with forceably, but each bs must decide for themself how to proceed. I really don't think any ws worth getting back will object to a bs asking them to leave, or serving them with divorce papers in a calm matter of fact manner if they won't stop the affair. They will either stop, or leave, but if they leave they were going to anyways, or continue to not act in good faith.

I agree with you in that I wouldn't want to be loved because it was OWED to me. What I think IS owed to me (and every human being) is the opportunity to know and be told that we're not meeting an EN. Basically I think we (as humans, but more within the American society) are a lazy animal, and that if not continually reminded to strive (to meet these ENs), we'll take them for granted. <p>This act of taking the ENs, and ultimately the marriage, for granted probably happens nearly 100% of the time at some level. But for a WS to "give up" and go to SUCH an extreme (allowing themselves to fall slowly out of love without putting up a fight, and ultimately engaging in an A) seems at the least self-damaging, if not self-destructive. Now, don't get me wrong, the BS has a great deal of responsibility in this as well. They (I) should realize that they're not meeting a need and attempt to understand what that/those needs are and how to better meet them, but that discovery is difficult, at best without feedback.<p>I don't know what the answer is, but I'd sure LIKE to. <p>I've been asked, "why did it take this to make you come out of it." To which I replied, "If not this, then what?" I can find no greater eye-opener or motivater than the possibility or realization that one may lose (or may already have) one's spouse (often one of the single most important parts of the BS).<p>I for one know that these days will leave a permanent chapter in my memory. I'll probably think of it daily for MANY years to come, and ultimately, maybe that'll eliminate some of the inate laziness in nurturing any future relationships (w or w/o WS).<p>SNL, I think you have some interesting and fascinating ideas herein and in the other related thread. They will provoke much thought in me during my self re-discovery. Thank you!<p>Kev

SNL;
I'm getting a bit of circular logic here....which may be why I find my marriage all together confusing. Actually, I understand your points and agree with them, for the most part. I made the following list to give myself something to ponder. It now occurs to me that the list is an illustration of why an idealist [or a rationalist] may have a harder time accepting status-quo than some. <p>First Circle; It is okay to reach for self-actualization....but it is not okay to expect your mate to come with you...<p>Second Circle; It is okay to caretake...but not to be a caretaker.

This is the real puzzler;
Third Circle; It is NOT okay to try to change your mate....but it is okay to strive to attain perfection in a relationship....<p>More later SNL---need to digest this first.
Thanks again for your thoughts....they are some I wouldn't have come to on my own.
C&I

Yes, my contemplations are viewed as circular on occassion, and may even appear so. But IMO that is a consequence of this medium, it is impossible to fully write out all this stuff, hence it is discussed in bits and pieces and can get confusing trying to follow all the threads of thought, and the focus shifts. But it is coherent, it is coming together in my head, and that is why I want to write a book. Who knows I may even publish it. Bottom line is it DOES matter who you are married to, in understandable, discernible, measureable ways. And by observation a conclusion that people often marry the "wrong" person is pretty much a given. The alternate explanation that we are all just selfish sinners and do not know how to love is not very satisfactory, and violates the notion we are how we are cause that is how we survived long enough to invent computers, and argue over this stuff. I do think emotions/feelings are far more important than people want to deal with........why? Cause we cannot control those truths, denial only works on our cognitive side. Denial is the achilles heel of rational thought, and rejecting cognitive thought in pursuit of our emotional highs, is the achilles heel of feelings.........you need both, working in harmony to navigate life successfully methinks. But it is a hard skill to learn. I think socarates got it right, you ask questions, lots of questions, everything you can think of, you ponder and pick at the answers and conclusions, and eventually the truth is revealed. Those who only ask the questions with answers they approve of, will never find the truth, and doom themselves to wondering why their life is always messed up. Lastly after all this intellectual work is done, where is the feeling input? It is in the courage to follow your dreams. After your mind has done due dilligence on those dreams [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I haven't um...... been so motivated in years, I had sunk into a very dark lonely place, a place where being a rationalist dreamer was not appreciated much, where duty and rules reined supreme. I don't know what the future holds, but whatever it holds, it will be proactively chosen. I also know whatever the ow might be or not be, she pulled me from that pit, at great price, and risk, to herself, and I will be eternally grateful for that. I did the same for her, (and now pay the price) but ya know, sometimes that is how life works, salvation often comes in very odd packages.<p>[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Now this is a conversation I can really relate to...some of the things stated here are my thoughts exactly!!!!!!!I cant reply at the moment, but I hope this is still here when I come back.Sincerely, Esta

Esta,<p>There's more of the same in the post "More from SNL on WS psychology".<p>Later,
Kev