To begin I must thank everyone for their awesome support and responses thus far! Very helpful. Today, as I'm sure will most days for the next while, has brought another stalemate. I know that this site is adamant about the no contact with the OW rule. I do work with her and I do still care about her feelings. So today the OW and I were having a work related conversation (over the phone- and let me again state here that we are 1100 miles apart) and she told me how her husband was reacting to her going out with some other male co workers. She explained how his reaction made her feel, and I said "have you told him how it made you feel? He is the one that really needs to hear what you're feeling, not me. If you two are truly going to work on things you need to let him know what's going on inside". I told my wife about our conversation, and she seemed very upset. When I asked what she was thinking she replied, "you're still keeping it going. By having conversations like that you are not letting go of anything and you're going to start it all over again" she then told me that I wasn't even trying to "work on it". I told her that I was and she just told me that if I were really trying to work on us I would have stopped the OW in mid sentence and told her that I didn't want to hear this and that she should talk to her husband, not me. Well, I have to say that I'm sorry, but in this instance I don't believe that it proves anything about my willingness to work on us. I am working on being more loving and caring and attentive to her needs through this. I will admit that sometimes I am not the most "touchy, feely, fuzzy, wuzzy" kind of guy, but I am trying. I am also trying to be honest about the conversations that OW and I have. I will not be a complete jerk to OW and cut her off if she tells me something, either. I did say that she needed to say what she feels to her H and not me. Does this mean that I am "not willing to work on us and give us a chance"??? I don't think so. Why can't she believe that I do want to work this all out? I sometimes feel like it is never going to get any better than this. I really DO NOT want a life where I am never trusted or believed again. What I did to our marriage was extremely damaging, I realize. But do I get any benefit of the doubt again? As you guys always have, in such incredibly supportive ways......please help. This really sucks!!!

2S. Having to type slowly on this one. I stand by my original post to you. Meant every word. And now you find out how hard it really is. Now think about it. Realistically, how fast do you expect to earn her trust? Just because you've been honest with her about your feelings for someone else? Because you're willing to Partially break it off.<P>It's not even close to over - for you or for your wife. I know you've admitted what you did was wrong. But I'm not sure you have any idea what kind of devastation an affair causes. <P>Take me, for example. I'm a pretty nice person. I never yelled at him. I listened, I worked hard to save us, I tried to help, I held my tears. He was amazed. BUT....I lost 35 pounds in less than a month after discovery, I couldn't sleep (still can't most nights), threw up every meal I ate, cried constantly when he wasn't around, blood pressure went up, never stopped shaking, couldn't take care of the things I needed to, couldn't work, locked myself in my office and cried all day. Want more? I got lots more. I've suffered a number of traumas and losses in my life and I can tell you without reservation that the fact my husband loved someone else was the worst thing that has ever happened to me. Absolutely. And it's the worst thing that's ever happened to your wife.<P>The point is, this isn't a little thing. And since you can't have "no contact", you have to have no contact on any sort of personal level. Period. I'm sorry, 2S, your wife is right. I know you care about this woman. SHE knows you care about this woman and this woman knows you care about her. <P>Every betrayer on this board knows a lot more than I do about how hard it is to let go of someone you've cared about. But the fact of the matter is, you've got to care about your wife's feelings and your marriage more. It's that simple. That's what working on it is. That's what it's all about. That's how you rebuild a strong marriage. No other way.<P>That's why withdrawal is so hard. Because you ARE giving up someone you care about. Because you want to console them, comfort them, have them as part of your life. That's why you can't. Not if you want to rebuild your marriage and restore the love for and from your wife.<P>AIRHEART, NEW BEGINNING - HELP ME OUT HERE.<P>OK, so, now you're starting to really find out what's involved. Tremendous dedication and committment on your part. Putting your wife and your marriage above EVERYTHING else, even your own feelings. That's how you get through this. That's what causes withdrawal and that's what eventually cures it. That and time.<P>A lot to think about now. It's up to you. No matter how hard she tries, you've got to build the trust, you've got to get through this. There's no other way.<P>Good luck to you.<P>Lori

Mr. Lucky,<BR>Yep, I know what went through your wife! Yes, I would have been mad also, No contact means, No contact! I hear what you say about the job, but Yes, you should be doing what your wife asks of you. That's how you build trust, build respect, get the benefit of the doubt again. It should only matter wht your wife thinks at this point. Right?<BR>ANY, conversation gives the OW attention, embarresses your wife that you are still talking to her. Bottom line.......it is contact of the wrong kind. You don't need to help the OW, or feel sorry for her. Feelings should stop. Now you wonder if what you said to her helped or how it turned out. You will still think about her. RIGHT?????? Infact you should even say, "______ I'd like to keep this conversation about work only."<BR>I wouldn't get angry or question your wifes needs or wants about any thing right now, This isn't her fault. You will blow it every time. She is in a very upset mode.<BR>When she starts seeing you give your all to her, things will slowly change. You will be happy that your effort will make a difference. You will want to please her more, she will become the one you concentrate on, and you won't worry about hurting the OW, Infact you will wish she never existed, that she also hurt your wife and family. But you are the one, not her, working on putting it back together. You are the special one now, but mostly it is your wife who is Special.<P>Almost Happy<P>-------<BR>TIME

Hi, 2S. I was the betrayer in my marriage, and I feel like the advice I'm about to give (like lostva has said, she pretty much said it all) is kind of redundant, but..<P>Your wife has suffered an enormous blow, the worst. She IS right, and I don't think you realize the complete pain she's going through. You can't rush her through this to the point of trust, you have to ride with her, not pull her through this really painful time. I've realized this from my H, and this realization hurts me because I know just HOW BAD this can be. You can hold her hand and tell her you love her and don't talk to the OW, the OW's feelings <B> don't </B> matter, your wife's do. I went through withdrawal, but I guess I got over it pretty quickly, and reading this board and all of the withdrawals, I can be happy for small miracles. You need to get a good dose of patience, and willing to weather the storm here, my friend. I've been there a year now and it's looking <B> much </B> better. But it takes time and patience and a willingness and a love for your wife to get through it. And NO CONTACT with the OW. I can understand your wife's mindset now, in retrospect.<P>Give your wife your love, your patience and let her grieve, even if it means anger. And please sever all contact with the OW. That is so important! <p>[This message has been edited by Connor (edited November 10, 1999).]

I'm here lostva...<P><B>2 soulmates</B>,<P>I don't know if you remember this, but I am both betrayed and betrayer. As betrayer, I work with the OM, and not 1100 miles away, but 20 feet away. Both of us need our jobs, and my H, for one, does NOT want me to quit. So, I understand where you are coming from. <P>That said, I can't add more to the words of lostva, almost happy, and conner as far as what your W is feeling. My H and I reacted very differently to each others affairs. I hunkered down and prepared for the fight of my life, and my H retreated and turned into a skinny, sick, devestated man. But as for what you can do, I have some advice.<P>DON'T talk about <B>ANYTHING PERSONAL</B> with the OW.<P>DON'T call her unless it is <B>completely and totally work related</B>. Boy, did I recently have a lesson in this one!!<P>DO tell your W often that you love her, that she can trust you, that you want to work on your marriage, and...<P>DON'T bring the OW into the conversation if at all possible. Ever. I'm gonna go out on a limb with this one, but I've learned it through hard knocks. Just because you think of OW and are hurting because of the withdrawl, it's better (IMO only, not a Harley principle) to NOT say anything to your W. I, and other betrayers who post here, have told our spouses (whenever we were down, sad, depressed, etc.) that we were thinking of OP and were sad about them. All this in the quest for honesty. I don't believe it served a purpose except to hurt our spouse. I'm not saying to lie. But saying you can't talk about it is better than hearing how you miss the OP all the time. <P>DO give this TIME TIME TIME... that word we ALL hate, betrayed and betrayer alike. We want things to get better right away. Especially, I'm sorry to say, the betrayers. I had what our conselor called "an affair lite" because it was very short (3 months) and produced one hop in the sack. Affair lite or not, it about killed my H. It's been nearly six months since it ended and we are struggling like you can't beleive. He's done some really mean and stupid things in the depths of his pain, and I've become a physically sick woman. <P>Infidelity is serious business and the repair and rebuilding has to run its course if it is to work at all.<P>I wish you blessings on this journey.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

I have to agree and from experience. MY w works with om and after the affair ended, said she didn't need to talk to him at all. <P>But as time (1-2 weeks) she started talking to him more and more , said nobody else was talking to him and the next thing I know she is sneaking around to see him and sleeping with him even while we are attending joint counseling to save our marriage.<P>So you must break all contact.I understand it must be hard. But give your wife some peace by ending all contact with ow. Continue to be honest, but break the contact.

If you are discussing work with the ow & she brings up ANYTHING not specifcally related to work. You need to tell her, "I'm sorry, I can't discuss this with you" and leave it at that. No need to explain anything further to her. You don't need to tell her to go to her husband, etc.<P>[Quote]Why can't she believe that I do want to work this all out?[Quote]<BR>Give her one good reason why she should believe anything you say? You are going to have to prove to her many times over & over in actions AND words that you want things to get better. Just saying it a few times will not do anything.<BR>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited November 11, 1999).]

2S:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I will not be a complete jerk to the OW and cut her off if she tells me something, either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Believe it or not, that might just be the most noble and beneficial thing you could do. From reading Dr. Harley and the experiences of many here, I'd say that the best way for your OW to "get over" you would be for you to act like a complete and utter jerk. Better yet, have a nasty (verbal) fight. Or several.<P>Voila! Your account in her love bank plummets big time! Soon, you'll go from a "sweet, understanding soulmate", to "I can't believe I thought I loved that [censored]!" This would benefit OW in her efforts to work things out with H.<P>Of course, it won't help YOU to "get over" OW, 'cause you'll know the blow-up was staged. But OW will probably act much cooler toward you, and if you're lucky, might reveal a nasty side of herself. Cha-ching! Withdrawals to her account in YOUR love bank.<P>And your wife will almost certainly feel good when she hears of your nasty "falling-out" with OW. She needs reassurance that it's really over, and this would go a long way towards that end.<P>See? Sometimes "jerk" is definitely the way to go! <p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited November 11, 1999).]

I didn't read all of the responses on your thread, and scrolled down to "add reply" as soon as I read the part about her telling you about what her husband thinks......<P>Bad bad bad no no no wrong wrong wrong<P>Can you change jobs? Because if you can't then you have to do something extreme.<P>No contact means No Contact <BR>And you talking to her because of work is just going to keep you in withdrawal and mess up your marriage. You have 2 choices. No contact or No marriage.<P>Neither of you are respecting your marriage. You aren't being fair to your marriage if you talk to her about work, or about her husband, or about anything.<P>Would you talk to a perfect stranger about her married life? no. This person is not a perfect stranger. You don't have the ability to not talk to her like a perfect stranger any longer.<P>Don't talk, and don't listen to OW. Period.

HHHHEEEELLLLLLOOOOOO!!!!! Am I and possibly TNT the only ones here seeing that 2S is actually keeping the affair alive?!!!<P>What is it that starts alot of affairs anyway? When one person starts to confide in another and the other comforts, consoles, or advices the other. The advice <P>quote--------------------------------------<BR>"have you told him how it made you feel? He is the one that really needs to hear what you're feeling, not me. If you two are truly going to work on things you need to let him know what's going on inside"<BR>-------------------------------------------<P>Effect on OW? 2S is so caring and understanding, I wish we could be back together. Frustration mounting here.<P>2S: Did you read my response to your other thread? If so you know why, not withstanding what everyone else has said, you must stop ALL contact with OW. ALL! Forget work, transfer to different dept. or ask for another contact.<P>It's your choice your marriage or OW. You can't have your cake and eat it too.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited November 11, 1999).]

I'm just jumping in here long enough to say this:<P>I cannot quit my job, nor does my H want me to... and the OM is there. <B>BUT</B> my H and I are praying that the OM will go somewhere else, and I, in the meantime, am only talking about work related things. No talk about my marriage, his relationship, or even health related issues that aren't discussed with the office as a whole. To stay at work <B>does not keep the affair alive</B> unless <B>I </B> want to keep the affair alive. I have enough trouble keeping my <B>marriage</B> alive.<P>I understand that the best solution would be to find another job. Sometimes circumstances do not warrant it. In my case, I waited 7 years for my job in a small community. We need the money, and I couldn't make what I'm making her EVER at anyplace else around here. We have teenagers getting ready for college (18,17) and a son with special needs who is finally seeing the light, partly due to some things (like this computer) that we've been able to purchase (he's 15 this month). <P>My H told me NOT to quit. Just wanted you to know!! Working with the OP is difficult, at best, but it can be done! But everything has to be open, honest, and above-board. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

2S,<BR> I am recently on the otherside of your fence. My wife has said she wants to work on the marriage but stay in touch with the OM.<BR> Trusut me when i tell you your wife can't accept that. Marriage is comprimise, but this isn't a point to comprimise on. I am trying now to convince my wife to stop all contact with OM, but all I am getting is "I will try". Take it from me. It doesnt sit well with your wife when she hears that you are talking to the OW..<P>Roy

Man, did I ever hit a nerve here! I thank each and every one of you for being honest with me about your opinions and experiences. There were some that kinda stung I must say, but hey, that might be what it takes. Thanks especially though to new_beginning for being open to giving some needed support. Thanks again guys for being there!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>We stumble and fall sometimes, and that hurts. But it is the most incredible realization when you look and see that it was your spouse that picked you back up......<P>Take care of and Love each other.....Arik<P><BR>