Hi All,<p>I was "inspired" to post this because of TryingAgain's venting thread. Did not want to hog her thread so I'm starting a new one. Posted it in Recovery too.<p>
For those of you who do not know our story. In March of this year I found out that my new husband (We were married 9 months at that time.) I found out that during our entire engagement and marriage he had cyber/phone/ affairs with 10 women and one weekend fling. The weekend fling took place the week after we got married. He travels about 50% of the time for his work, so he was able to hide these from me pretty easily. So I have some major trust issue here.<p>We have actually been doing very well in recovery. I am still amazed today that we are together and doing well… so this brings me to the present.<p>Ok, so here I am, well into a good recovery. And now it seems that the complacency is setting in. Since July there we have had some major problems with our children. During this our attention changed from ourselves to our children. Family became the number one EN for both of us. But now, things are settling down with the kids. It is time for us to refocus on our selves. I know that I am having a hard time feeling that some of my most important EN’s are not being met. So it’s time to do some major MB’ing, time to revisit the emotional needs questionnaires…. a marital tune-up of sorts.<p>But I’m having trouble with this. I realize that part of the problem is I’ve always had asking for what I need. I just get frustrated, angry and clam up. I realize that this is not the way to handle it. But how do people handle it when an EN is persistently not met, despite it being brought up, in a non-love busting way, over and over. <p>What does a person do when they ask their spouse, using the “His Needs/Her Needs methods” for a particular thing, and their spouse does not follow through on a regular basis? Harley says that the total, radical honesty means that we must tell them over and over that they are not meeting that need until the spouse starts to meet the need.<p>As an example…<p>I would like my H to call me/email me during the day while I am at work. I need this because I get lonely and miss him. I have a higher need for it right now because I am still trying to recover from his affairs. In one of his books, Dr. Harley says that there is no good reason for a couple to go 8 hours without contact. There is also the continued need for him to account for his time. I believe that needs to be something both of us do for the rest of our lives. When I do not hear from my H during the workday, I feel very disconnected from him by the end of the day. I usually call him a couple of times a day to discuss family matters and to just hear his voice. Over the last three months it has gotten to the point that if I do not call him, I do not hear from him unless he needs something. His travel further exacerbates this. If I don’t call him at his hotel night I don’t think I’d hear from him. I cannot reach him during the day when he is traveling. He has a cell phone, but he does not really use it and never checks his message. So when he is out of town we are almost totally incommunicado. This is very frustrating because emergencies have come up about his kids and I cannot reach him until 7 or 8 at night.<p>It is frustrating because I still get very scared when he travels. I still, and will probably always need him to reassure me.<p>His response has been some to the affect of: "I meant to call/email you today but then I got so into my work that I forgot."<p>At what point do I say: "You obviously do not care to meet this need of mine and I am not going to beg. Ok, I'm not going to mention this to you again. But be aware that it is going unmet and is causing me major pain." <p>How many days, weeks, months, or years do I let this go on? The MB concepts are great. But when my H will not meet a need consistently, what I do about it. And what does it mean to our marriage? Do I use blackmail and threaten that I will leave, withhold sex, or do some other stupid thing if this need is not met. <p>How do I get it across without doing some major love busting? I know that if I majorly love bust it will hurt our relationship. I also know that there are needs, like the one above, that if they are not met our relationship will be damaged. That is probably not the right thing to say. So what is the right thing and how do we pull it off.<p>What do we do with that unmet need? How do we handle the anger, frustration and hurt it causes. <p>Thanks, <p>Z<p>[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

Hi Z, <p>I thought you were on a plan to see Mickey or Minnie? I read your post and hear you loud and clear. Is this a guy thing? You can duplicate your request over here and probably a million times inbetween to catch all the other women across the country suffering from this great lack of reassurance. Though not a category of it's own (I feel it should be), especially when there is recovery, reassurance becomes a prominent factor in the recovery process. <p>How to relate this need to our spouses so that they see it as a need and not a nag? Hm..... maybe others can throw in their ideas. <p>I'll start, here's mine:<p>1. Like doing a load of laundry, you wash it but never put it in the dryer or hang it to dry. So while it is clean you still can't use it. Likewise the spouse that knows the other needs reassurance and claims to have at least 'thought about it' or 'I meant to call you', is just like a 1/2 done load of laundry. Is 1/2 way good enough? Well, here's another, is a 1/2 baked loaf of bread good enough? Maybe if you are starving and don't care what you eat, but eventually and under normal conditions it is not enough. In fact it is unhealthy. <p>So, the retort is 'do you want me to not even to that much'? My response: "only if you want to wear wet underwear and eat doughy bread for the rest of your life." <p>Now my question is, if this is ok for male gender, what can the female gender get away with? Or if the WS can get away with this, what can the BS get away with? I mean, let's play fair here. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Have a safe and fun trip. Say hi to Goofy & Baloo for me (they are my favorite characters). <p>L.

Great reply Orchid.<p>Wish I had thought of that years ago!!!<p>Pat

Great reply Orchid.<p>Wish I had thought of that years ago!!!<p>Pat

Hello Z,
Haven't posted here in a long time but have thought of you frequently and wondered how you're doing...<p>It sounds like you are in a tough spot. Does it make you suspicious that your H doesn't communicate with you regularly while he's at work or away on business? I mean, do you have any fears that his inability to meet this EN for you have to do with his being otherwise occupied? Or do you feel certain that it's just pure absentmindedness or inconsideration on his part?<p>I know a lot (if not most) people would not agree with my opinion of what to do in this situation...but here's what I think. Is there an important EN of his that you meet especially well that you could just kind of *forget* to meet for a few days or a week? Would that get his attention?<p>It just seems that if you've tried every polite, non-LBing method of changing his behavior, maybe you need a more radical approach, an "illustration" of how his refusal to meet your need makes you feel. It seems really odd to me that if he knows how you feel about this, he would persist in not meeting this need. And, IMHO, it's not even that tough of a need to meet. <p>What do you think?<p>Calla

Z,<p>I'm interested in the responses here as well. <p>I was gone for about half of September. For the first trip (originally due home Sept. 11) I was pretty good about calling home. The second trip she made me buy a cell phone and I called often the first few days, then slowly petered out. We got quite disconnected after Sept. It's taken all of October to gain back some of that lost closeness. I'm not going to travel again until Dec. now. <p>Frankly, I think the thing I have to do is exactly what you said. Email several times a day. Phone calls. It is distracting, and that probably is a disgusting male trait. You know, intense focus, singlemindedness...<p>I got away with this kind of behavior in the past so I think I sort of associate it with the culture of travel. Maybe I should realize that it was probably this culture that contributed to the predicament I eventually ended up in.<p>Back in June, on my first trip away after d-day, I left lots of love notes around the house. W and my D (8yo) had great fun finding them. I emailed about 10 times a day. I think we were actually closer by the time I returned. It took a lot of energy, though, and I didn't get much work done. There's got to be some happy medium.<p>Jeffers

Hi zorweb,<p>I'm glad to read that, at least, that very difficult situation that you've had to deal with re the kids is going better. No doubt the road to real healing there will still be a long one [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>As usual, I'm somewhat pressed for time, but I thought I'd throw out a few thoughts. First, this sounds like a POJA issue, but I'm not sure how to address it and it's been a while since I've had time to reread some of Harley's writings. But my thought would be that withholding ENs to force compliance will be counterproductive. Seems like it would be better to find something he'd like from you to negotiate with.<p>Of course, you may say that you're already doing all that he wants and he's not reciprocating. Maybe this is the case, and I'm thinking that you're pretty drained already. I'm not saying that you're not giving more than you're getting already, or that it will be easy. However, it seems that the best solution will involve a creative way to negotiate a positive incentive for him to give you what you need where he also gets something more from the deal.<p>One thought, aren't you both in somewhat similar jobs in the IT area? Maybe you can find interesting articles to email him and have some "conversation" that way. Have you seen TechRepublic? They have lots of mailing lists that you can sign up for where they'll email tech articles related to various interest areas.<p>It can be difficult to stay feeling connected. I feel that too sometimes. It's exacerbated when I'm working as I do tend to focus in on the job and feel less like calling my SO, especially when stressed, so I can understand how STL could get in a noncommunicative mode. I can certainly understand what it does to you also.<p>I don't have a lot more right now, but I'll come back when I have time if I get any more ideas.<p>Steve

You guys are wonderful. I’m trying to brainstorm on this today and was stuck. Can really depend on you being here. I’m lucky to have found this place.<p>Yes Orchid, we are going to Orlando this week. STL is already there. I leave tomorrow morning. So I’m packing, hanging out, cleaning house, visiting with my sister-in-law and I need to go to work for 2.5 hours. What a day!!! My sister-in-law graciously agreed to fly out here from Portland and take care of the kids while we are away. Another blessing.<p>Anyway, between all of this I will respond to all of your replies. They have me thinking. I want some clarity on this before I leave tomorrow. We will have some time to reconnect and start or MB tune-up while we are on vacation. Want to have my head together.<p>Thanks,<p>Z [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Zorweb,<p>I'm sorry I can't help much here, but I do
understand your frustration..<p>Did he travel alot before you married?
or did this start afterwards? If he traveled
before hand..how did he work on building
the relationship before the marriage???

Orchid,<p>I leave for Mickey/Minnie land in the a.m. I had to some this weekend, could not abandon my team at a crucial delivery, so I got a flight for Monday. And since I’m working only enough to supervise their activities, I’m taking some very much needed time to clean house emotionally so that can be in the right mood for this trip. So far yesterday, and today, have been a very good and energizing time for me. Lord knows I’ve needed that lately.<p>I think that it is a guy thing, though I have read here about some women who seem to be the same way. I do understand his getting very involved. I do that too. I have had days that are so hectic at work that I don’t have the time to make a phone call all day. You know, he is the kind of guy who tells me several times a day that he loves me. I would die if he stopped that. One of my problems is that I almost feel guilty, like I am asking for too much. But is need that contact and the accountability from him so badly.<p>I like your half-baked bread analogy. I may use it. He does that laundry thing too. I usually end up taking it out and hanging up the cloths so that I can use the dryer. Love that man…
Your idea of reassurance being an EN of it’s own is interesting. I do think it falls under affection. Because affection is the little things, like romance, that a person does to keep the flames going. Contact with one’s spouse and reassuring them certainly goes a long was to filling the affection needs. <p>RE: Now my question is, if this is ok for male gender, what can the female gender get away with? Or if the WS can get away with this, what can the BS get away with? I mean, let's play fair here. <p>Sometimes I’m tempted to not call him anymore and see how long it goes before he realizes that we have not had contact. I did that once for three days when he was in town. He did not notice. But then I was crazy from it.<p>When he travels, I don’t know if he will call me. But the thinking is that it is cheaper for me to call him then the other way around. But it puts all of the responsibility of contact on me. It’s like he never reaches out to me. I’ve never been comfortable pursuing men. My natural reaction is that if he’s not interested enough to call/email then I should just move on because his heart is not into this marriage. I don’t know if I am over reacting but those are the thoughts I am having. <p>But I am afraid that telling him this will be a great love buster. It’s a type of withholding.<p>It’s like he knows I’m not going to leave him over this, so it’s not important to him.<p>I will say hi to Goofy & Baloo for you. I don’t know how the week will unfold as STL is working some during the week. So I will have some time alone to work out, pamper myself, reflect, read, etc and maybe even log on here once or twice.<p>Z

ThornedRose,<p>He traveled about once a quarter before we got married. But he lived in MD and I lived in NM. So ours was a long distance relationship. In May 2000 he changed jobs to get one that would enable him to move here to NM when we married. You asked how did he work on building the relationship before the marriage?<p>Let’s see, we talked on the phone daily. We emailed each other at work daily and some times called. We chatted on IM daily, sometimes for hours. Then two or three times a month one of us would travel to visit the other for either a long weekend or for a 1-2 week vacation. We also took two vacations, one to Seattle and one to Orlando.<p>Your point is noted and well taken. He did what he is not doing now. We do talk when we are both at home of course.<p>You have helped a lot
Thanks<p>Z

Oh, Z ... I thought STL well aware of MB !. Where is the care ?. Yes, unmet En drains your L$ and extended one will cause resentment. Communicate it to STL also get third person view such as Steve's or Jenni's help if it is needed.<p>Actually one of my WW's EN is Conversation and way off the normal chart ... I learn how to chat w/ W and call W from office during the day too. It is hard but I rather filling W's EN than let OM does it [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] W thinks I have A ... fogese talk try to justify hers. Get STL a palm pilot, I block time to call W, and it will beep on scheduled time. This way whereabout is not a question anymore and no meeting on the way.

zorweb,<p>are you around this week? do you have access to the net?<p>- Freddy

Calla,<p>I’ve been thinking and wonder about you too. Would love an update you. How’s it going?<p>RE: Does it make you suspicious that your H doesn't communicate with you regularly while he's at work or away on business? <p>I’m not sure that it makes me suspicious. He does have the tracking software on his computer so I can verify that he is not chatting or emailing anyone. So that gives me great comfort. His installing that software was a great gift to me.<p>RE: I mean, do you have any fears that his inability to meet this EN for you have to do with his being otherwise occupied? <p>Again I don’t necessarily feel that he is occupied with another person. I do think that he is otherwise occupied in that I think he is focused on work, his kids and a new computer project he is working on. I get the same sense of detachment that I felt when he was having affairs. But I really do not think he is involved with anyone.<p>RE: Or do you feel certain that it's just pure absentmindedness or inconsideration on his part? <p>Absentmindedness.. yes. He concentrates so deeply on his work that it is hard to get his attention. Sometimes I have to almost shake him to get him to return from the world he goes to when he works. He literally leaves this world and is living in his head when he does this. His family says he’s done this his entire life. He does not only forget to call/email me. He forgets to go to doctor appointments, forgets to make important calls about the kids. When he is in his own world he forgets much of this one. I keep his personal (doctor/dentist) appointments in my calendar so I can call him and remind him to go.<p>He is sort of a sweet, Jerry Louise absent minded professor type. Mix that with Rambo and you have STL in a nutshell. Hey he stays that I am the typical blond… dahhhh. So I can say this. <p>I do also think that there is a little inconsideration going on. I’m not going to leave him over it so it’s not important enough.<p>But when I have told him this he looks hurt. He says that he does not know why he is like this, he has always been like this. (ADD maybe?)<p>Not meeting one of his EN’s for a while might work. But I am afraid that it will build animosity. Now that I have read this MB stuff, I can see it working like I have a microscope. As I feel bad about him not meeting my needs, I feel myself pulling away. Perhaps it’s a self-protection mechanism. But isn’t that how Harley says a marriage starts down the path of destruction? I am so glad that we have the MB concepts to fall back on because they have given me the awareness to catch this before it turns into a BIG problem. I guess it’s proactive marriage building?<p>RE: It just seems that if you've tried every polite, non-LBing method of changing his behavior, maybe you need a more radical approach, an "illustration" of how his refusal to meet your need makes you feel. It seems really odd to me that if he knows how you feel about this, he would persist in not meeting this need. And, IMHO, it's not even that tough of a need to meet.
If I were to throw a LB’ing fit I believe it might get him to pay attention for a short time. But it will not have a long-term positive affect. There has to be a way.<p> One thing is that I think the communications become mechanical. OK, so he’s going to call me once in the morning and once in the evening. Now what is he going to say? “HI I love you, I’ve checked in. Got to go back to work.” Anything more involved takes some effort. Maybe that is why it is hard to find the umph to call. Because it is not just the phone call, but there is the time/energy needed to come up with a topic. He is so focused on work that he cannot change the direction of his mind.<p>Yes I do think it is odd that he knows it is a very important need of mine but it is not important to him. <p>What comes to mind is my ex-h. If I had asked him to do such a thing, his response would have been that he might have done it if I had not asked. <p>But now that I have asked he feels manipulated and controlled. So there is no way in hell that he would do it now. Not that STL would talk to me like that in a million years. But I wonder if there isn’t a little rebellion in there.
You know, in many ways he is such a sweetheart. <p>And I do know that he is truly absentminded. I wonder if there might not be another way to get some of what I need to take the pressure off of this. Though we do need contact when he is traveling.<p>Glad to see ya,<p>Z

Feddy,<p>I do think that I will have access to the net this week. Do you have something in particular in mind?<p>Z

Z,<p>I understand you so well with what you're going through. My H is the same absentminded soul as yours is.... by any chance, is STL an Aquarius too? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am having the same problem with getting him to meet my most important EN right now. Housework. He's not working right now, so I expect him to share in the household responsibilities. However, I always have to ask him. I HATE that. Pre A and pre MB, I used to remind him regularly, and he'd ask that I did. But at some point, the same request over and over again turns into nagging. I'm in a catch 22 over it all.<p>The other problem I'm having with H is the excessive amount of time he spends with his buddy. I recently posted about that one, and we're still in a rut over it.<p>I will admit, that I'm a bit too lazy this weekend to look more in depth into the MB material to see what's there to help us. But I do appreciate you starting this thread... it's allowed me to vent a little bit, and to let you know that yet again, you're not the only one out there dealing with it. (and I have to admit, I'm with Orchid... I think it's a guy thing! LOL [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>Karen

Topie,<p>Yep, but we love them don't we? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I've been reluctant to post here about this for a while because I don't want STL to feel picked on. You know I love him dearly. But this is the right place to come and get support, to dump and vent so that I can take a healthier approach with when I talk to him about this again. And at some time he will probably read this thread too. Radical honesty?<p>I did think that a thread on meeting needs, negotiating them, etc could be a very good topic. I know that I'm getting a lot out of this today.<p>As for some ideas that might help. You might want to read Leilana's response about being creative to me on the thread in Recovery. <p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=004934 <p>Z<p>[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

I don't think it is a guy thing not too (but may have some gender bias). I think it has to do with lots of things, (too much to go into here). But as a practical issue lets just say it is completely innocent, and just not who stl is, means nothing in itself (however I do not believe that is true). Then the issue become behavioural modification, linking the email/call to something....like maybe calling everyday at lunch time, or a different time for each day of the week (so he gets used to relating it to time of day), or make a game out of it, he has to call you each day to get the next clue and solving the puzzle generates a reward he would like, or you um...... I dunno, study up on something that interests him, and each day he finds out a new factioid and you can "discuss" it......... anyways you get the idea. Also I wonder if he checks in at work on a regular basis, if so why not call youjust before or just after, anyways the point being if he can remember to call in to work, why can't he remember to call you? And frankly stl, I'd be worried to if I were Z when you are out of town and she has to "catch" you in the evening, what the heck is that about anyways? You should be calling her, hanging out with her a bit, and she should have no trouble tracking you, as well as knowing your evening agenda, and where you are. What do you do in the evenings anyways?

Redhat,<p>STL is well aware of MB. And I think that if you were to ask him he'd say that he does practice the MB principles. But he is human and therefore subject to being forgetful. He actually does follow them in almost every area of our life. There are a few that need some work? fine tuning if you will. I threw this one EN out as an example.<p>I plan on POJA'ing this with STL while we are on vacation this week. Hopefully I'll have my head screwed on straight and will be able to be creative (as per Leilana in her response to my thread in Recovery). I would very much like to get Steve or Jenni's help. This might be a good idea for next week when we get back.<p>The palm pilot sounds like it might be a good idea. I'll look into it. Actually I think that his cell phone has a planner application. But I don't think he uses it for that.<p>Wow, sounds like you are doing a great job to meet your W's Ens. That's inspiring.<p>Thanks<p>Z

SNL,<p>I know what STL used to do in the evenings, before D-day. That was his chat/phone time with his OW'en. And then there were the times he had dates with some of them. Oh yes, and he did some work too on the computer to prepare for this next day.<p>Now he is almost always in the hotel when I call him.<p>He does not check in to anyone at the beginning/ending of his day. But he does have definate beginnings, lunch breaks and endings to his day. He usually has internet access so he can email easily. So there are times when he could associate a planned contact. We have discussed this in the past. It does not seem to work.<p>Z