Well it was a long painful weekend. For those that don't know, my H came back home on 10/26 for the 2nd time, supposedly to start working on our marriage. After about 4 days, he told me (once again) that he really just wants to live here as normally as possible and "we'll see what happens." Since this mess started in March, I've been working on changing the things that I knew he didn't like about me. Tryin to improve myself and Plan A'ing as best I could. Well it seems I've failed at that. I took my H out for a really nice surprise on Saturday, dinner and a play at a nice dinner theatre. We had NO conversation in the car on the way there. He was angry that I spent the money on the show. He complained that we had to wait 2 hours during dinner for the show to start. He DID like the show (it was something I'd known he'd wanted to see), but I got a little "thanks", then silence on the way home. During dinner HE brought up our relationship and I had expressed that while we had a lot of issues prior to his A, the A had caused another issue for me. I said that I felt now he had another relationship to compare ours to. He said (as usual) that my feelings were ridiculous, and that he wasn't comparing anything. He brought up my ANGER again (he does it every time), and said that's all he was looking at. Yesterday I went on a walk for Diabetes with my very best friend in the world. She has been such a support to me. We talked about how depressed I am with my H back home and once again going back on his word to "do whatever he had to to make things up to me." Well, she dropped a bombshell on me. She's always wanted whatever I decide, whether it's my marriage or a divorce. She said she was sick and tired of me taking all the blame because my H was a complete A**hole! I said what do you mean? She proceeded to tell me that in 1989 at their wedding reception (my H and I were matron of honor and best man at the wedding), my H had flirted with another one of her friends, then a week later he called this woman and asked her out!
This was not the first time my H had done that in the early years of our M. About 1 month after we got married, I found a note where he was asking someone he was in college with out for drinks. Then when I was pregnant with our twins, I got a call one day from a woman asking for my H. When I said he wasn't home, she asked me if I was his mother? When I said "no" she hung up. Now my H had gone out with the guys the night before and had not come home until 4:00 in the morning. What would all of you had thought after he'd been out the night before and you were OUT TO THERE with his children and he hadn't touched you physically in 5 months?<p>Anyway, when I got home last night, I was pretty upset with the new information, because even though it happened in 1989, it was new to me. I guess I blew up at him, because now he says he wants a divorce, he never should have come home. He told me that when he had his A in March, he knew it was the one thing that I'd always said that I could not get over, and he really never expected a 2nd chance.<p>So I ask you, was this truly an EXIT A, and I just screwed things up for him?<p>I'm rambling, as it's early and I couldn't sleep. When I suggested we sell the house and go our separate ways, he said "YOU KNOW, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT, I'M SICK AND TIRED OF YOU WANTING THIS MARRIAGE ONE DAY, THEN BLOWING UP AND CHANGING YOUR MIND THE NEXT."<p>So, anyway, I don't think he ever intended to try to recover our M, I think he was just waiting for me to get so fed up, that I ended it for him.<p> Wish they had a crying face, as that's what I'm doing right now.<p>MOM<p> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

DARNIT! lost my post, I'll try again.<p>MOM,<p>As you've oft reminded me...BREATH!<p>I wish that there was something that I could say or do to help you through today. I'm truly sorry for the hurt that you're feeling.<p>It sounds like WS is trying to NOT be the bad guy in this thing. That he's trying to say, "See, I told you. I came home to work on the M and YOU ruined it." Please know that this is NOT true. You've worked INCREDIBLY hard on you, on your M, and on your children. Please know that the things he's saying are the FOG. He's trying to justify to himself his "choice" to leave and end the M. Hopefully, one day soon, he'll clear up and realize just what he has.<p>MOM, you're an incredibly strong woman and I admire you for your efforts in making a better YOU, for nurturing your children, and for the help you've provided to people on this site. Please know that you are loved by God, by your children, and by those of us on this site who have experienced your grace. God bless you.<p>I'm so sorry for the pain that you're feeling right now. I know that there are many here, who wish there were something that we could say or do to ease your suffering.<p>((((MOM))))<p>K

Thanks K,
reaching out while you're hurting yourself is a wonderful thing for you to do. Time to put my focus back on God once again. Time to get ME healthy so that whatever happens, I'm a whole person. Just hurts after trying so hard for 8 months. Thanks again, I truly appreciate it.<p>MOM

Ditto...<p>You know those Waffling WH's...they want to blame and justify what they have done...they want us to take all the responsibility...the blame...make all the changes...then when they get the slightest opportunity they say "see, you haven't changed at all."<p>Bull-pucky.<p>Chin up, MOM...we've made great strides in our changes...yeah, we'll have set backs...we'll react in anger when we should have breathed and counted to one thousand...thought about what to say and how to say it...but hey, we ARE human...<p>Like I told my H on Friday...if we continue to do the same things, we'll get the same result...<p>I, for one, am cranky with your friend...you were in no good position to receive the information she gave you...maybe your H did this, but in my mind why 'kick' you when you're down...<p>I truly don't understand her motivation for telling you...<p>Now remember, MOM, this is a small blip in the big picture...don't try so hard for your H...I don't plan anything anymore...let H do it...including arranging for sitters...that way I know we are doing what he wants to do...because if I engineered it...he would also fall back on the "I don't want to be with you." line...then, I sit back and enjoy.<p>Well, I'm just free flowing this answer...hope it hasn't gone in too many directions...the underlying thought is that this is YOUR marriage and YOUR decision...watch the power that you give to others...<p>(formerly known as C A L I)

MOM,
You are in a place where you are being forced to show tremendous courage. Your husband is not. It takes very little courage to leave a relationship after all this time. Your work is not going unnoticed, like Kev said, these are all just excuses and the FOG! He does notice a difference, he is a coward. Mom - anyone can quit, throw in the towel, give up, but it takes a real man or woman to say, "You know what, I am not always "in love" with you either...I don't always have "feelings", but this marriage is about commitment and duty." You hang in there! God is doing His best work on YOU. As much as we'd like our spouses to come around, for them to see the differences in us, the good things that are happening and the opportunity for a great marriage, WE CAN'T CONTROL THEM! They have to make their own choices, ending the marriage is a bad choice, and they will deal with the fallout should he/she go through with it. It all comes full circle. This is just the excuse to do what they want, their will, their selfishness, ME, ME, ME. I am speaking from the unique perspective of being the WS and the BS, so I know what I am talking about.
Keep praying. Prayer changes things! Most of all, keep doing the work to change you, when it all clears, you are going to be a better person.

MOM<p>I'm so sorry to hear about your weekend. I can't really offer up any more wisdom than you've already received from others. The one thought I'd like you to consider is this.<p>When you suggested selling the house and going your separate ways, was that what you really wanted, or were you saying it because you were angry and hurt? I know I've said similar things to my WS out of frustration. Well, if we say things that we don't really mean because we're emotional, I think it's safe to assume that they do the same thing.<p>I agree with TA that it's a blip. One night of harsh words won't make or break things. Give yourself a break; you're human. You know that whatever happens with your M, there are many many happy days in your future, right?<p>Ok, so I did offer something even if it doesn't bear a striking resemblance to wisdom.<p>Take care of you.<p>NP

In the hopes of helping to better yourself, I will play devil's advocate here for a second.<p>It was too bad that your H was LBing Saturday night, especially after all the hard work you put into it!! He definately should have been more appreciative. If you ever get to talk about this rationally with him, just simply tell him that it hurt you that he did not seem to appreciate the trouble you went through to plan a nice "night out".<p>Now the other thing. You KNOW you have a problem with your anger. Your H has told you that this is THE major thing that he doesn't like. You can't blow up like that. It doesn't matter if you had good reason or not, it was wrong, and you need to go run over there asap and apologize.<p>Your H REACTED to your anger. That is normal. You could have almost played the whole scene out ahead of time had you thought of it, couldn't you? You get angry at your H, you explode, H freaks, says he's done (he's waffling anyway - it's easy to do this), you're so angry that you AGREE, and you both start saying a bunch of stuff you don't REALLY mean. You're both just angry.<p>You should have brought up the 1989 thing during your counseling session. Or, if you're not going anymore, you should bring it up at a time when you are not so upset about H's reaction to your Saturday night plans. Simply tell H, you are upset about something and would like to pick a time/place to talk about it when you are both calm and not upset.<p>But, you learn, and now you can look back, and change your reactions next time.<p>For now, you must go apologize. Go talk to your H (assuming you are both calmed down). Tell him WHY you were upset (bad day, your plans for Saturday, what friend said, etc), that it was wrong to explode, what you plan to do different next time (THIS IS KEY!), and ask him if he'd still like to work things out (assuming you still do).<p>Another thing, I just learned in counseling. You MUST stop taking everything so personal. Your H did NOT say those things Saturday night to hurt you, or to make you feel bad. Whatever reason he had, it is HIS reason, it has nothing to do with you, and you must stop taking it so personally. If you had, then you would not have been so upset in the first place...<p>Same thing with the stuff in 1989, it was not about YOU. Don't take it personally. Figure out WHY he did what he did, but don't make it all about yourself.<p>(I'll do what my counselor does to me) WHY are you mad about what happened in '89? Does it change anything? Does it mean your H loves you less? Does it mean you don't want him anymore? Does it mean he doesn't want to be home now? Look at the big picture. What is the big deal, it's in the past, it doesn't change anything... Get it?<p>If you stop taking things so personally, then you will find yourself not getting so mad, and you should be able to communicate better with your H and figure out the "how's" and "why's". THAT is what you need to figure out right now.<p>Good luck MOM. You sound like you need a hug today. <<<<<<<<MMMMMOOOOOOMMMMM>>>>>><p>I really hope I helped a little...
HbH

Hi again. I just read your other post over in the recovery board... Sounds like you tried to talk to your H about it, but that he is adamant about wanting a divorce now...<p>Tough call. Are you sure he is not still angry and being reactionary?<p>Let this all blow over for a couple of days and then re-visit it. Try to be civil and talk to him about what happened.<p>I am truly sorry for your pain. I still stand by the other stuff I wrote. I am sorry if it came off as harsh. The reason I wrote it is because it reminded me of the last argument my H and I had about 2 weeks ago. We just discussed it in detail on Friday with the counselor, and it really helped us.<p>Basically, I did something the Friday before last that my H INTERPRETED as me being controlling. He took it very personal and thought I was trying to run his life. So, he got livid, stormed out, said he knew I couldn't change and that I it was a mistake to come home. Took 2 days to cool off...<p>If I was not in the place I am now, I may have screamed that I wanted a divorce, or tried to kick him out and made the situation much worse than it already was. Luckily, I could shrug this off. Your H is not in this place.<p>When we finally got to the bottom of it, it turns out that my H's interpretation was not the same as the way I saw it. I had completely different reasons for what I did, he just couldn't see it behind his anger. He took it too personally...<p>My H has a major anger problem. My counselor has been giving him some EXCELLENT ideas on this. Let me know if you are interested. <p>Hugs,
HbH

Oops, double post.<p>[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: no_patience ]</p>

Dear All,
I am so grateful for the responses received. To HBH, I apologized profusely last night. I explained to him that I hated the way I treated him. I told him pretty much word for word what you said, that I was reacting to something before I had a chance to calm down. Here's the thing, though, it was another case of his infidelity. Not that he went through with it, but that 3 years after we got married, he was asking someone else out? We were supposedly happy then, so what was up with that? I guess it hurt MORE after all that time, because supposedly we were happy then (that's what he tells me anyway). I'm trying so hard and seeing nothing from him is just getting old. Add to that a past infidelity that I just found out about, I'm a mess.

Just an update...<p>Scott and I talked last night. I apologized again for my outburst. He said "thanks for that, but it doesn't change anything." We spent about half an hour with him justifying why he thinks we should get divorced. I spent the time reiterating what he'd told me Saturday; that when he moved home a week ago Friday, that was day one. So I told him it was nice that he'd stuck in there for 9 days, after I'd stuck with him for 8 months. He's SO emotionally detached, I don't think there's anything I can say right now that can get through to him. He said the reason he did NOT feel he should leave was that when the A was going on, he left (in March, when he convinced me he was leaving so we could "start over"). When I asked him in September to leave (because he was STILL lying and contacting her) he left. He said it's my fault now that he wants the divorce, as the A is no longer an issue (WHATEVER), so he's not leaving. He's also back to "with the exception of the A, I REALLY like who I am. I don't think I've done anything wrong in our M." Also, he said that he felt like I was going to make him "tow the line" forever. He said "I've been calling you in the mornings and at lunchtime to make sure you know where I am, and THAT's not enough for you." I said "Scott I have appreciated the phone calls, as that will really help in the long run to rebuild trust. However, as for the rest of it (helping me to know what NEEDS she was fulfilling, etc.) you have not been interested in any of that. I don't consider that me making you "tow the line" at all." <p>Later when we were in the garage having a smoke, he says "oh, I'll be going to Holly's at lunchtime tomorrow to help her with her icicle lights." I said "Scott, if you're divorcing me, you don't need to keep "towing the line" by reassuring me of where you are. It really shouldn't matter at this point, should it?" It was almost comical. We're done talking, I'm making dinner (in tears) and he's telling the kids about how mom's making something new tonight, hope we all like it! He went on the rest of the night like NOTHING WAS WRONG! That's why I think he's emotionally totally detached from me. When I said I was going to bed (at 9:30, not after the news like usual), he said "why are you going to bed?" I said "I'm tired, goodnight." Then this morning, he's all cheerful and says "well, Oakland won, so I won my football pool!" I said "that's good for you." When I left this morning, I was telling him what I'd taken out for dinner, what I was planning to make with it, etc. I explained that I wouldn't be home until 6:00 (he'd forgotten from last night to this morning, that I have my counseling at 5:00), he just looked at me all funny. I said "I've got counseling at 5:00, I'll be home at 6:00 if you want to just wait, and I'll make dinner." Then I left, with a "have a good day." <p>My cell phone rings at 7:15. He says "just called to say good morning." I say "good morning!" He says "I guess it's just a habit now, me calling you." Then we went on to talk a little about the traffic. Once again I say "well, have a good day." He says "you too."<p>What kind of sick game is he playing with me now??????<p>For me, I'm trying to detach right now until I get more advice from my counselor. Get myself healthy by Plan A'ing I guess. Don't know how to do that with him anymore, but I guess I'll concentrate on me. I'll try to be as pleasant as possible. When I asked last night if he thought maybe he wants to wait until Spring to sell the house and divorce, because maybe he still has hope for us, he said "if you ask me that right now, NOPE, I don't have any hope for us." Then 10 minutes later "wanna go have a smoke?"
[img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Wish my C appt was for 4 hours today, instead of just 1!!!<p>MOM

MOM,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> He's SO emotionally detached, I don't think there's anything I can say right now that can get through to him <hr></blockquote><p>You're exactly right there. There's absolutely nothing you can say or do to get through to him. You've told me that VERY thing. We can't speak rationally or logically with them, it won't help- only hurt.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> He's also back to "with the exception of the A, I REALLY like who I am. I don't think I've done anything wrong in our M." <hr></blockquote><p>It sounds like he at LEAST knows that the A is wrong, if he doesn't completely BELIEVE it. Let that point eat at him a while, don't enable or justify for him the A. Be kind (I know you are). If you can stand it, Plan A (FOR YOU!)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Also, he said that he felt like I was going to make him "tow the line" forever. He said "I've been calling you in the mornings and at lunchtime to make sure you know where I am, and THAT's not enough for you." I said "Scott I have appreciated the phone calls, as that will really help in the long run to rebuild trust <hr></blockquote><p>Looks like he's trying to blame shift here....YOU'RE making me "tow" and causing the A and DV. NOT TRUE!!!! You know this, he's trying desperately to resolve the conflict within him. I DO see some promising signs here though. He's calling you and making an effort to meet some of your needs to know where he's at. Take that and don't expect more....remember, Plan A, EXPECT NOTHING!<p>Try not to be demanding, I of all people know how hard this'll be. Remember, we're here for you, make demands of US, expect support FROM US.<p>I wish there was more...<p>((((MOM))))<p>Kev

Thanks Kev,
I thank God every day for the people here. I would have gone absolutely crazy long before this had it not been for all of you!! The voices of REASON when we feel unREASONable!! God Bless you!! It's got to be like a mantra: Plan A, Plan A, Plan A, Plan A!!<p>MOM

MOM, give it some more time. It sounds like your H is still confused. My guess is that he feels like he can't make the right decision, so he's waffling, trying to wait and see if someone makes up his mind for him.<p>Most likely, your outburst the other day made him make up his mind. It "helped" him decide what to do. But now, after the smoke has cleared, he's confused again and doesn't know what he wants. He's not going to admit he doesn't want a divorce until he's SURE, he's probably sick of going back and forth and he probably felt a sense of relief to finally "make up his mind", only to now feel pulled back towards uncertaintly.<p>The best thing you can do is plan A, and NO MORE outburts. If you need to vent, please do it here, at counseling, or with a good friend...<p>Stop nagging him about the divorce, just let things simmer down. Keep working on yourself and don't put too much effort into trying to understand your H. <p>You have a lot of questions about what happened in '89. Stop letting your fears take over for you. You heard a RUMOR from someone about something that happened over 12 years ago. What are the circumstances? Would your H have gone through with it? What was going on inside him? Those are the things you need to know, but right now, you aren't going to find them out. So, yes, I am saying it, you need to just drop it until you guys are further along in recovery and you can talk openly about what happened.<p>This is not another case of his infidelity. You don't have enough facts to back that up yet. When you get some, okay, maybe it is horrible. Maybe he would have slept with her, maybe your husband is a pig, he was perfectly happy and was always hitting on women. MAYBE, he just had low self-esteem and it felt good to know another women was interested in him, but he wouldn't have actually done anything. I don't know, but from what you've told us so far, you don't KNOW, so you can't judge him until you find that stuff out.<p>I am truly sorry that you had to find out about this stuff now, it was very inconsiderate for your friend to tell you that stuff. I realize she was trying to help, but in reality, she just made it worse for you. She made your fears grow, your anger build, and your trust diminish even more.<p>I am very proud of you for realizing your mistake and coming clean. You have nothing to be ashamed of. All this takes practice, and you are learning by doing. (Man, do I know how THAT is...)<p>Your husband has a lot of work to do if he wants this marriage. You have done an EXCELLENT job!!! You have nothing to be ashamed of. You are dealing with a waffling husband. It SUCKS. I've been there, and the only thing worse I think is when they're pining over their "lost love". <p>You will get through this. Talk to your counselor, keep working on yourself, and let your H deal with whatever plans he has in store for himself. <p>I am hoping and praying he will chose to re-commit and work on the marriage, but it sounds like he is not there yet. I am sorry for that. I hope he gets his head out of his butt soon before he loses you, his prize possession.<p><<<<<<hugs>>>>>>
HbH

Thanks HBH!
You're right, I AM his prized possession. If he never realizes it, then it will be time to end the M. I am going to continue to try to be the kind, loving person I KNOW I AM. I will eliminate the outbursts. I was able to eliminate them while he was gone, I don't want to change that just because he's back. Can't wait to get to counseling tonight! Thanks again!<p>MOM

You go girl!!!<p>That's the kind of attitude you need to have!! <p>I know you can do it. You did SO good while he was gone, I know you can keep it up, it just takes practice...<p>HbH