Zorweb,
you said ". An affair is soley the responsibility of the WS and the OP" The affair maybe, why it happened definately not!<p>You also said
"Since you have never been cheated on, you have no idea of the depth of the hurt it causes"
WANNA BET!<p>I have been talking to my wife about the state of our marriage and my needs to feel wanted. I also ask if I could change one thing what would it be. She looked me in the eyes, smiled and said NOTHING! She was sincere. <p>Maybe the OW's hubs should grow up and realise that his wife doesnt need to wear a size 8 bikini and sit by the beach while he surfs. She is a special woman and he was not meeting these needs. I found that out over time, it was not my invitation! Their M is hurting for other reasons too. I accept that was a contributor.<p>KEVCO,
Hello have you been reading. How about saying to my wife that I am prepared to go to counselling with her if it would help with her libido etc! And not in a moment of anger, but a time of compassion. Surely that is communication.I have never suggested that I am responsible but your book came up with a 200 percent marriage and that dont figure sorry. <p>TinyDancer,<p>I am glad I made you angry, because you have me!
You said "I went into this marriage with the idea that it is forever" What you think I didnt!<p>I am sorry your hubs put work before his family! I didnt. Never would. Never will.<p>I admire and respect your loyalty, I wish I was of such resolve and strength. Or maybe the guys around didnt offer the one thing you needed? We dont know... were you ever tempted? If not you deserve my respect and admiration because temptation gets a big write up in the bible. I just gave in and each day I pray for forgiveness and strength.<p>I make no attempt to justify.
I WAS WRONG, NOW I AM PAYING FOR IT EMOTIONALLY!<p>Human Morals, weak, pathetic human morals!<p>You suggest the physical love they share is the only thing unique to the marriage. Maybe that is a flag you need to address because I would suggest any marriage based on physical love is destined for failure.<p>Lexxy2,
My wife doesnt like the OW that much anyhow. Thinks she is too angry a person. And maybe, just maybe the anger you realise she will feel is the reason I feel telling her is wrong!<p>Tmmx,
You said, "nearly every BS here understands they've been responsible for creating the conditions in their marriage"<p>You reckon, read the replies I have had so far!<p>MelodyLane,<p>I WAS WRONG, This has placed my marriage, the ow's marriage and everything else at risk. It wasnt worth it. I have developed bulimia as a condition in dealing with my guilt. I have considered suicide for the mistake I have made. And I fell in love with two women. <p>I have not found anyone who agrees with what I have done because I know it is WRONG.<p>You said "since your OW is such a fine upstanding citizen, why not bring her home so she can also be "friends" with the wife and kids?" <p>I wish u didnt say that... She is "friends" with wife and kids. We have travelled extensively together with OW and her H. Like I said, what I have done is betrayed my W, my kids, Her H, my faith and every vow I made. And now I have realised and am trying to get out of it in a manner to cause the least pain possible. Even through No Contact!! which is damn hard.

Okay, so...<p>Did you tell her????????!!!!!!!!!

whothehell,<p>Yet I did try to communicate my needs were not being met! Maybe that was my failing, not forcing counselling when I was prepared to accept her lack of interest.<p>You said "could have led to a ONS" and "when I was overcome by the most horrible, evil feeling I ever had" which makes you a better man than me. I didnt have a ONS, I have rejected many opportunities for ONS and I would suggest that was because the EN's were not an issue.<p>You say you feel like crap who.. .. hell you got women lining up for a man with your dignity. You should hold your head high for being so strong and loyal despite the issues at home.<p>Freddy,
I never ever justified my actions. . I looked for the contributing factors to my failing.<p>You said "responsibility to tell your wife before you entered into the affair. If she agreed to it, then that really is her issue" doesnt her feeling genuine remorse for her lack of drive and telling me to go out and pay for it as long as she doesnt know, say something about her view! I dont suggeest it meant do what I did in any way but it must mean something.
I am inspired that you are still on track and there is hope.<p>FairyDust,
Look out my little fairy cos your vent could cause a real 'dust up'.<p>You quoted me then misquoted me! Gimme a break, I dont believe I said "why do you only blame the OP?" in fact if anyone did they would be WRONG princess.<p>You also said, "my husband was HALF responsible (it takes 2)"
Baby let you in on a secret. It takes at least 3 to have a real affair, otherwise all you got is a relationship.<p>You then said "he is totally responsible" unfortunately contradicting yourself again!<p>Not all OP are sick and twisted like you were up against and I am sorry for your experience. The OW in my A was basically a decent person whose EN's were not being met as were mine and bad luck bought us together and I figure we were oblivious to the fact that the EA was developing and then love took over. Remember what that was like falling in love. A song I often listened to (Secret Lovers) had one line that said "How could something so wrong be so right?". . . Says it all really.<p>Assuming the Anthrax is the A and not the OP Whereas I realised the mail in the letterbox may have contained anthrax and removed it before my family ever knew of the risk. So why tell em why we got a new mailbox, only cause em pain, fear etc. I just gotta work out how to put a lock on the letter box so we are never exposed again.

TryingAgain,
Welcome to the thread, although I thought you had followed it for a while.<p>You said "If you keep doing the same thing...if you keep singing the same song...you'll continue to get the same result". . . See I am the one trying to get away from the A. And the one who accepts he was wrong.<p>You also said, "You gave yourself permission to have an affair. BS did not cause affair to happen and is not to BLAME." the actions/inactions of my BS contributed to my EN's being open and thus my vulnerability. So what she did in a small was contribute, like it or not!<p>You also said "Look at the "MAN IN THE MIRROR." You are responsible for your half of the relationship. Quit trying to make us responsible for your half too. " Assuming "Us" is the BS's, maybe you should look in the mirror to see if in a small way you too contributed to your WS betraying you. Hell I did, and I did, and I accept that!<p>Orchid,
I too have been to chat rooms. Pick up joints, I been approached many times. I keep away. "Lead me not into temptation" comes to mind.<p>In my marriage I did more and more. I did cover that in a post.<p>Amazed (Curious)
I am trying to force myself to not talk to the OW. Been a couple of weeks but since being on here no contact has been my objective. yes it is hard, very hard. And yes, I did love her. But let me say, nothing like the love i had for my wife and family.<p>No I wasnt using the OW, there was many occassions when I abstained from any form of physical contact because it was convenient to me to jump and run and didnt want her to feel used.

Now before all the accusations and anger start let me clarify my situation given what I have learnt from this site.<p>There are many factors that contribute to any person becoming vulnerable enough to taste the forbidden fruit of an A. Be it a ONS or a long term A. I have learnt to accept that in many ways I have failed and betrayed the person/people I love most. I have also caused pain to another person who is suffering in her own way and for other reasons. The failings and vulnerabilities have also placed both marriages at great risk. I can see and feel the enormous pain many on this site feel.<p>I found this site hoping to find a way to deal with my decision to break up with the OW and refocus on my M. I quickly discovered the readings to be most helpful and the forum to be illuminating. I can honestly say I would never do anything to cause my wife the pain I see in some of these replies. Surely you would respect that. I feel telling her of my actions would cause that pain and yes probably make my life a little bearable for some time I agree. What is so wrong with that.<p>After my initial posting, I had hoped that my presence and the avenue for BS's to question someone who is comfortable enough and honest enough with his failings to answer Q's would be cathartic for them and I could really begin to understand the issues I face.<p>I will not walk away from this forum and I sincerely pray that God can forgive me for being human and christian enough to accept that I have sinned and must beg his forgiveness. <p>I thank you all for your responses and sharing your pain. Bless you all.

Aus, I will try to do this very carefully...We are all glad you are here,WSs and BSs alike. It is a good thing you are doing,up to a point,and we all commend you on your deciding to end the A.<p>I think the problem is with the inherent "but" seen in your posts and it IS perfectly normal for where you are in this journey. In time, you will see there are no "but"s.You had an A and you can tell everyone exactly why..because your W was frigid...because you tried to help her BUT she wouldn't be helped...til now.She is beautiful and a great friend,a wonderful mother BUT she didn't want to have sex with you. It sounds like an excuse and we who are further along know that this in itself is not an excuse. It IS a problem, a big ugly one..all our Ms had problem...people who NEVER cheat,their Ms have problems.<p>I think you MAY have some unresolved anger at your W for "making" you do this terrible thing and for having to end your friendship.<p>I think all this will come clear to you in time. And, I think, as long as you stay away from the OW, you will discover that the feelings of love you had for her will fade. Sure, I think it's possible to be in love with 2 people at the same time,for a little while. But that's just"in love", we fall in and out of love with our spouses all the time. The difference is who we choose to commit to and you have chosen your W. Committment IS a part of true,real love and it doesn't sound as if you ever committed to OW.<p>Your W is so happy now...what do you think this has to do with? Did you behave at home exactly as you always did,while you were "in love" with OW? Could your W not tell something was up and maybe didn't know what? Did your W do her changing all on her own? <p>It's very early days for you,Aus. And your feelings are somewhat confused. I suspect you do not want to hear about the "fog". A natural part of withdrawal and self protection. The other thing that will eventually happen is you will stop feeling guilty for hurting the OW...She chose,too. And bought her own pain with that choice.You are not responsible for her choice..I suspect,and don't get mad, if it hadn't been you, it would have been someone else..?Not because she is a bad person but for her own unhappiness and justifications.<p>I'm not trying to condecend to you but we have seen this all before. An A follows a certain pattern..I think My H thought what happened to him was special and so unique. Only after coming here and reading did he realize that it was common and oh so ordinary. He behaved like EVERY other WS!! HIM, who is his own person. It was yet another beginning of his continuing awakening.<p>Tell or don't tell.your choice..I suppose it happens that Ms are rebulit in this manner and further, if she knows the OW and has negative feelings about her,it will be worse for you and your W,having had an A with THAT woman!! Just protect your self and your W,aus. And realize that you don;t get evrything you want ALL the time..sometimes you have to wait for it. Sounds like you have it all now...maybe if you had waited for your W, this may never have happened.But that is yours to discover, I could certainly be way off base with that.

wounded,<p>I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said. Thank you. I will do whatever it takes to protect my wonderful wife and family. <p>The fog is thick right now and the pain is great for me. Her smiling eyes make it all worth while I am sure.

Aus...despite my low number of posts, I have been around awhile...I change names frequently...lately due to the fact that OW, OW's H and my H sometimes visit this site and have used my posts against me...<p>Now as to my accepting my part...I HAVE...whole-heartedly...unabashedly...and with great despair...my journey started before d-day when God revealed to me, in trainings and at conferences, my 'failings.' To my great regret, I did not act on what had been revealed...I became paralyzed...there was too much anger and conflict in my marriage at that time and my H and I were in withdrawal from one another.<p>Since D-day...I had no option but to change...no reason not to...and my personality is such that I 'fix' problems as quickly as possible...much to my H's chagrin and he now asks frequently..."Why did I have to sin for you to change..." That is why I reacted so strongly to your post. ME, BLAME THE INFIDEL? Please understand...Blame helps nothing...<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/009574.html (here is one example of the total despair I felt and where I 'took ownership' of my part).<p>There is only Choice, Action, and Consequence. You chose a certain course...your wife chose a certain course and now the piper must be paid...<p>The most important thing that I have learned through all this is that we have been socialized to be this way...just as there are no licenses to have children...no required coursework...same is true for marriage...and we faulty humans seem to 'screw' both up regularly...UNLESS WE FOLLOW SOME SORT OF 'RULES.' <p>I echo Wounded who says that while you say the words that you were wrong...when you speak of all that your wife did or did not do, it smacks of 'justification' not necessarily blame...<p>What we have to take ownership of, as humans, is there really is no JUSTIFICATION for what we do...we do what we do because we want to...AND, if we want to badly enough, we do hurtful things...we betray and lie...then we justify or blame or find any excuse as to why what we did was OKAY or really not all that harmful....<p>You have to, in order to grow...evolve to the next level...take ownership of what you did WITHOUT THE JUSTIFICATIONS. <p>I DID IT BECAUSE I WANTED TO...I felt I needed it...I deserved it...I was being selfish and I PUT MY NEEDS in front of everyone elses....<p>Your taker took over...<p>C A L I

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ausinfidel:
[QB]
FairyDust,
Look out my little fairy cos your vent could cause a real 'dust up'.<p><<<<You also said, "my husband was HALF responsible (it takes 2)"
Baby let you in on a secret. It takes at least 3 to have a real affair, otherwise all you got is a relationship.>>>><p>2 months prior to the A my H's exact words were "I have never been happier in my entire life". I was pregnant with a much wanted baby, he was excited, couldn't wait to tell everyone. Then I had a miscarriage. One week later we found out his father was incurable ill. Compound that with job stress and he did a quick spiral into depression. All the while keeping happy face and pretending everything was okey dokey. I had no clue to his unhappiness, he did everything possible to keep it from me. When he dropped the bombshell that he wanted a divorce (2 weeks after the A started) I was shocked. I asked why he never told me he was unhappy. His response "I didn't want you tto know. I figured it would go away." Kind of hard to do battle with a problem you don't know exists. It does take 3 to call the relationship an affair, but it only takes 2 to consent. The third person is generally kept in the dark as long as possible. Therefore that decision is 100% that of the cheater and OP.<p><<<You then said "he is totally responsible" unfortunately contradicting yourself again!>>>><p>I didn't contradict myself. Each are 50% responsible for participating in the A. The OP wasn't responsible for breaking my marriage vows. That was all his doing. Therefore, for THAT aspect of the A he is 100% responsible. My H wasn't responsible for her stalking me (he brought her into our lives, but the nutcase stuff was totally her doing) so she gets 100% responsibility for that part of it.<p><<< and bad luck bought us together and I figure we were oblivious to the fact that the EA was developing and then love took over. >>><p>I buy the bad luck part, but not the oblivious. Not a person alive doesn't realize when a friendship/coworker situation is potentially crossing a line into possible being something else.<p> As far as not telling your wife I am going to totally buck MB principles and not disagree with you there. But that is only because I am one of the few who would rather not have known. I suspected (was pretty sure) but in the end all that mattered was we worked things out and got back together and are happy. After the A Anthrax became a blabbermouth (she had been such a good little secret keep before she got dumped) and wouldn't leave me alone. All of a sudden she felt that I "had the right to know". Personally I thought I had the right to know before she started sleeping with my H, but that wouldn't have benefitted her I guess. I really wasn't interested to hear what she had to say, because as soon as he broke it off with her for good, it became irrelevant. When I stopped listening to her she got even madder. But your wife might not be like me. She might want to know, details and all.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ausinfidel:
<strong><p>You said "since your OW is such a fine upstanding citizen, why not bring her home so she can also be "friends" with the wife and kids?" <p>I wish u didnt say that... She is "friends" with wife and kids. We have travelled extensively together with OW and her H. Like I said, what I have done is betrayed my W, my kids, Her H, my faith and every vow I made. And now I have realised and am trying to get out of it in a manner to cause the least pain possible. Even through No Contact!! which is damn hard.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'll bet you wish I didn't say that. No, she isn't "friends" with the wife and kids, she is their enemy, as demonstrated by her actions. It's hard to even imagine that you let your wife go around her completely oblivious to the fact that she is doing her best to destroy her. WOW!

Hi ausinfidel,
Just had to follow up on you to see if you had actually told your W. You will know when the timing is right. Either you will tell her, or she will figure it out on her own, or someone else will tell her.<p>Can you imagine that? How would her reaction be if someone else told her, namely OW or even OW's husband?<p>I mean, you said you are having a hard time breaking it off with OW so evidently, you still have a lot of feelings for OW. What if you DO try to break it off, for once and for all but she doesn't want to break it off so out of revenge, she tells your wife? Just a crazy thought, but not too farfetched as you will find out if you do like you said and never leave this site!!!<p>OR, what if OW gets pregnant by you and that is how your wife finds out about your infidelity? That's not farfetched either, unless one of you is sterile... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>OR what if you pick up some disease and your wife has to find out that way? I mean, you guys got together, what's to stop OW from getting together with someone else??<p>The possibilities are endless. Not to mention, that is, if you believe what the bible says, that there is no sin that will not be exposed. That all of it will come to the light. Either you expose it (confess it) yourself and deal with it, or else God will expose it! YIKES!<p>I know how you feel tho. I can't talk. I have been in your shoes, knowing something and not wanting to tell only to have it exposed BEFORE I could tell. Not infidelity, but other things regarding finances in our budget that I misappropriated... BUSTED! It doesn't feel good any way you look at it... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Good luck to ya whatever you decide to do!

Aus, any news? Worried about you

Aus, I gotta tell ya, man, you're barking up the wrong tree. <p>I am in my second marriage (4 yrs almost)with a man I am crazy about. Over the summer a close 'friend' suggested numerous times that her H and I sleep together because she didn't like sex. After several months of prodding, I guess we just decided why the hell not? My H was not meeting my needs in some ways at the time even though I clearly communicated them to him.<p>You know whose fault my affair was? MINE...just like you...Mine and mine alone. I have the ability to say no, to turn around, walk away...I and I alone decided to go outside my marriage. I only found this board today and next to nothing of what goes on here but I know enough about life to know that above almost everything else you must accept responsibility for your actions. <p>This affair cost me the friend (who discovered she really didn't want it after all), the friendship as it was with her H, and my own self-respect and peace of mind. My husband does not know about it and I will never tell him. He would never forgive me and I love him with all my heart and soul. But if he does find out, whatever happens I will know that I earned every bit of it...<p>grow up.

Dear Aus,<p>I hope we hear from you soon. In regards to telling your W, I would like to share a true story. <p>My grandmother,I have shared this story before. My grandmother was the strongest woman I know. She held up her family against the greatest odds. <p>My grandmother was married twice and widowed twice before she was 32. Her 1st H married her when she was 19 and a picture bride. Her H's aunt (an older lady) with whom my grandmother and her 1st H lived with was having an A with her nephew (by marriage and a much older woman). The aunt basically seduced the young man (in his early 20s and she in her early 40's. Basically made the sex (A) a requirement for he being allowed to live in their home (yep the aunt was married to his uncle and the uncle was still alive and kicking). Evidently my grandma's 1st H was a kind of nice but spineless man. <p>Here is the hard part. My grandmother never knew this until after their 2nd daughter was born. The way my grandmother found out was when she went to visit this older aunt, who just happened to give birth to a son about the same time my grandmother had her 2nd daughter. hmm...... during this visit (done out of respect), the aunt asked my grandmother to be a wet nurse and breatsfeed her child since she was 'dry'. Since my grandmother was nursing anyway and felt obligated, she agreed. While my grandmother was visiting with this aunt, feeding the aunt's son and visiting with a few other neighbor ladies (these other ladies knew of the A). The OW aunt proceeds to ask my grandmother, say who do you think my son looks like? My grandmother said Uncle ______. The OW aunt said no more like your H. Then the OW aunt laughed. The other ladies sat there in horror. Then the OW aunt told my grandmother that the baby she was nursing was in fact fathered by my grandmother's H. At that point my grandmother removed the baby and returned him to the aunt and left the house. <p>Can you imagine the pain my grandmother went through? Let's add to that. My grandmother soon became pregnant again, just days before the birth of their 3rd child, her 1st H committed suicide, he was too ashamed of what he did. The OW aunt had no remorse down to her death. The boy grew up knowing what his mother did. My grandmother was nice to that boy. He respected my grandmother and wished she was his mom instead. <p>This story is for real. No point exaggerated. My grandmother later married again and this time she had 4 boys. This 2nd H was my grandfather. She had a happy marriage with him. <p>The point is that when the BS has to learn of the A from someone else, the pain is intense. As you can see, some OWs might act nice but really really are not. <p>I have not seen 1 situation yet where having the A was a good thing for the BS. <p>
Hope this info helps. Please post and let us know how you are doing. <p>L.

Hurting, Hurting a whole lot, that is what I am doing.

Aus, Did your poor W find out? ANd, WHO are you hurting for? Hope it gets better...

I see the ignorance and it pains me for you. It is also causing me to question the rationale and merit of following the threads.<p>My W is not someone I would ever place in the "poor" woman category.<p>The reason I am hurting is that I have fallen in love with two women. Easy as that.<p>Try giving up one of your loves and see how it feels. Right or wrong, it is real.<p>I dont think I would leave my W for the OW for several reasons.<p>1. She is a nicer person
2. She is better looking
3. She is better in bed (when it happens)
4. She is simply wonderful<p>So why the OW, because she made me feel special, wanted, needed when i needed it, and wife couldnt provide it, and I fell in love with her.<p>I know it is wrong, I fell the shame but it is real and so is my pain!

There is an article mentioned on other threads from www.smartmarriages.com called Shattered Vows by a woman named Glass, I think.
She suggests that the person who has the A is not the person receiving less in the M but the one who is giving less. Also, that the A holds up a reflective sort of mirror type thing and the WS likes what he sees in the mirror.
You do not develop love for a person whose only quallity is that they "wanted" you is it? I'm not being flip here, I really don't know.Doesn't there have to be more...caring and sharing and admiration and respect? Isn't THAT what love is somewhat comprised of? Does that mean that every man who wants me, I should feel love for? I actually don't, at all, because any man who would suggest so strongly to a married woman their sexual desire for her, is not a man I can admire!!<p>Sorry, went on a tangent here, I'm sorry you are hurting,aus, but I think,you should run to a counselor...I wonder if you can do this alone without it. ANd don't worry, most of them will tell you not to tell your W,since it's over...if it's over. But they can help you see some stuff more clearly about yourself...Take the help, bud...

aus,
I feel your pain, man. I understand where you're coming from. I love my H dearly--but I care very deeply for the OM, as well. He was a close friend and stuff just happened. And it pains me greatly that one of your compelling (#2, I think) reasons to stay with your W is that she is better looking. That really seems pretty shallow to me.<p>I think the thing to ask yourself is this: how you feel when your W finds out? I ask myself this all the time and I almost cry when I think of how hurt H would be. And I know I'm gonna have to end this before it happens.

I agree that #2 is shallow but I have been flamed because I fell for a "younger woman who has yet to mature into a woman who may no longer have her body or her looks."<p>It is not always looks or physical attraction that brings on the A. For that reason I raised the point and that reason only.