My W found out that I had a P.I. follow her last night and a couple of weeks ago. I wanted to find out if OM was in an after work program with her. He is. Before she left the house this morning, she said "the guy you had follow me last night wasn't as good as the one you had two weeks ago". She left before I could respond. I guess I blew it. Major LB! Nothing I can do now but plan for a divorce.<p>sad dad

sad dad-<p>So do think that the spy games triggered her finally filing for d? I'm glad you posted this. It gave me a reality check. Here, 7 months after D-day, I was thinking of trying to record my W's telephone conversations because I wanted to try and figure out what she was saying to her friends about us. Your post helped me realize this probably isn't part of a good Plan A and radical honesty. I realize that this really isn't how I'm going to become a more attractive spouse and how I'm going to improve myself.<p>Sorry things are not going well for you. I still don't think this is necessarily the end for you guys if you can avoid the anxiety and trying to figure out her actions rather than working on yourself and being the best father you can be.
SG

I suppose it is somewhat of a LB to be caught in a LIE, however, these are things that you have a RIGHT to know since it directly impacts your life. Did your wife tell you that the OM was in this class with her? If not, then why would she withhold this information? It seems to me that you were proven right in hiring the P.I. since you discovered that your WS was not telling you the truth about contact with the OM. Radical honesty works both ways, you know.<p>I have placed spy software on my H's computer and it is has been a major positive benefit in our recovery. Now I have proof positive that he is telling me the truth about his activies and I no longer worry - I have fallen back in love with him because of it. <p>However, I would never feel guilty or embarassed about doing it because I have a right to know about the fidelity of my spouse since it directly impacts my life. He has no right to withhold such information from me and until he has reproven himself to me, I will continue to protect myself in this way.

HI SD- I believe that you have the RIGHT to know where and what your spouse is doing. After all- affairs just arent as FUN when they are closely followed!Removing the secrecy lets the sun shine in.I think continued lying and dishonesty ( this includes avoiding answering questions and lies by ommission) are a form of emotional abuse to the BS. Your wife was behaving this way for a LONG amount of time BEFORE you hired a PI.If your W would end the A you wouldnt need to resort to these types of measures. But our legal system being what it is it requires proof of fault. You have alot at stake with custody of your daughter. Dont be so hard on yourself. Without your W committing to live a totally honest life with you wont be able to recover your marriage. lifeismessy

This is a toughie, unbeknownst to me my wife had hired a pi and discovered some things prior to actual D day. I was surprised, but I did not think she did anything wrong, I know it wasn't with malicious intent, she was just trying to find out things I was concealing from her, which since it affects her life, I could not really be angry about. Our problems lie elsewhere, as do yours. <p>My advice, simply tell her yes, you know she is not being forthright with you, and hiring pi is part of how one uncovers truth when it is not revealed otherwise.....ask her if she thinks that is inappropriate, and what would she do in similar circumstance (however, I would not pay the pi, he is obviously inept, and did not perform PI standards). Tell her you only did it out of desperation to try and save your relationship, and you are still willing to do so. It is not a LB sad, it is only ammunition if she has no intention of reconcilling with you... but the fact is no one really needs ammo, cause we are all free to do what we want anyways, including leaveing a marriage. She knows you did nothing wrong, and will have no impact on her decision. <p>However, telling you is interesting, strategically there would be no reason to tell you, in fact better not to tell you she knows she is being watched. I would conclude 2 possibilities, 1 is that she is really done with you, feels kind of hateful, and was just rubbing your nose in how she is smarter than you, and will give you no ammo against her. The other is she (somewhere down inside) has not given up, and is validating your efforts to still fix things. If the former, not much you can do but get smarter and redouble your efforts to get the evidence you need to protect your daughters interests in a custody sense. If the latter than asking her in a CALM, non LB way how she felt about your doing this, may....MAYBE give a smidgen of insight. Remember it ain't over till it is over, even after divorce, if people find they really are in-love they can reconcille, so do not burn any bridges in the heat of the moment. But do not be a wimp either, fight, but fight fair, and with dignity, and accept she just may not want to be married to you, but you can get along, and co-parent successfully. <p>Keep a diary/letters for your daughter to read someday, so she knows how her dad felt and dealt with this. Maybe even print your posts, someday when she is old enough to understand this may make a difference in her life, and her marriage. On occassion earlier in my marriage, and when things were difficult, my w would threaten to leave me, and take all the kids, she knew this terrified me, and she did it to exert power over me, I know how you feel about your daughter, it is a paralyzing fear, especially for a man, cause you know you are pretty much powerless, and must depend on the reasonableness of an estranged wife. I thought about kidnapping em and dissappearing, all that crazy stuff. Tell your w you are scared for your daughter, and want to be a full part of her life, for your daughters sake, and that is part of why you are acting like you are. Suggest if you can work out an acceptable custody agreement, you will not stand in her way, and make this as painless as possible, not try to interfere with her life etc.... at this point you have nothing to lose. If she is going to diminish your role, the odds are you can't prevail. <p>I don't know your w, but if she is capable of vengeful behaviour (hopefully not, maybe she is just tired of your efforts, and needs space), she could use custody to hurt you, so you must assess that too. Keep in mind that at some point13-14 the courts will allow your daughter to choose to live with you. If you have done a good job till then, she might just want to see who her dad is (if you have been denied co-parenting opportunities), lots of things to consider sad, and you do have choices, don't forget that, you just have to accept the limitations of your options and work within them, don't panic. Also in this day of computers and internet, you will be much more able to interract and keep in touch with daughter, lots of pssibilities there...we all know how powerful relationships can be on-line. Just be the best sad dad you can be, you allready know your wife has to be left alone to make her own choices, proceed with dignity, and confidence, and leave the pain and angst up to the Lord. Good luck.

Thanks to all of you for replying. I feel better now than I did a few hours ago. The facts are simple. She know's I know they were in this program together last year and that's how this whole thing with OM started. She would go out afterwards and stay out until after 10:00 or 11:00. The program is voluntary, she's in it by her choice. She could have told me he would be in it again this year, but she didn't. I didn't ask because I had no reason to expect the truth. I found out she is still in contact with him, which is all I really wanted to know. <p>I'm sure she is angry at me, but under the circumstances I'm sure she would have done the same thing. Who wouldn't? I'm not going to beat myself up over it. I trusted her completely for 6-1/2 years until she gave me a reason not to. If she's divorcing me to be with him, just tell me. I need to know so I can have closure and move on.<p>sad dad

SD,
I agree with everyone here. Sorry that it happened. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You did what you had to do, so don't worry about it. <p>I'll be watching for another update.<p>[ November 11, 2001: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Hi, <p>I don't think you LB'd. I would tell W that she's right, next time I should pay more and get a better one!!! <p>My H asked me if I hired a PI to follow him and OW. I said "good idea, I'll think about it." Already did it but hey, I didn't deny them their right to speak, just defused their hot air.<p>You can turn this around for your benefit and not head straight for the D. You are playing into there hand if you do. <p>JMHO,<p>L.

Orchid,<p>Interesting reply. I have no intention on heading for D, I just wanted to know the where they stand.<p>How can I turn this around to my benefit? I'm going to have to discuss this with her tonight.<p>sad dad

Hi,<p>Your quote: "How can I turn this around to my benefit?"<p>Well, she may not be too helpful in this matter since you are the one who may benefit. So, just don't fight their words, agree where you can (even though you don't agree with the concept), agree that they have a right to say it, then just leave it at that. <p>ex: WS: Did you hire a PI to follow me and OW?
BS: Not yet, but that's a good idea.<p> WS: I can move out and divorce you if I
want.
BS: You are correct. That is 'your' option.

NOTE: Under these circumstances it is
important NOT to show your emotions
and not give more info. <p> WS: You can't control me.
BS: You have a point there. Guess it goes
both ways. <p> NOTE: Again don't show emotions. Give a
bit of data but not too much. <p>Get the idea? Becareful, the WS could throw back that you are being sarcastic. If they do, say, 'you could think that way, but .....' or say even less. I used the humming sound a lot. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>L.

Orchid,<p>Just so you know, my W has alreay filed for D, although I've haven't been served yet.<p>I have to respond to her comment. Maybe I'll just say something like "You're right. Maybe I should have hired a better P.I." and keep the discussion to a minimum. There's no reason to make a big deal about it. She'll be angry, but that anger is misplaced. I did what I needed to do because her relationship with OM affects my life and my daughter's life.<p>This could all work to my advantage as it could make it harder for them to maintain their relationship if they think they're being watched. He was already paranoid based on something I know previously.<p>sad dad

Well, I followed Orchid's advice. I told my W, "regarding your comment this morning, you're right. I should have hired a better P.I.". She didn't respond. There was no reason to deny what she knew was true. I may give her a note or send her an email saying something like:<p>"I may have done some questionable things this past year, but everything I did was with the hopes of saving our marriage and keeping our daughter's family together. I have no need to defend these things nor do I feel guilty about doing them. I did what anyone else would do in my situation". <p>The questionable things were planting a tape recorder, hiring a P.I., snooping, etc. <p>I don't know, maybe I should just drop the issue.
Any thoughts???<p>sad dad<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

Hi SD,<p>Now you get to be patient. For me, the WS's reaction was in slo mo mode. Took about 3 days to see a reaction, sometimes even longer. <p>Did she have any expression on her face when you made your statement?<p>L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad dad:
<strong><p>"I may have done some questionable things this past year, but everything I did was with the hopes of saving our marriage and keeping our daughter's family together. I have no need to defend these things nor do I feel guilty about doing them. I did what anyone else would do in my situation". <p>The questionable things were planting a tape recorder, hiring a P.I., snooping, etc. <p>I don't know, maybe I should just drop the issue.
Any thoughts???<p>sad dad<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I wouldn't call those things "questionable" - I would call them a SANE reaction to living with an untrustworthy person. It would be "questionable" if you did NOT take steps to protect your interests against an untrustworthy, dishonest person. It's unfortunate that you were put in that position in the first place. I should add that there is no virtue, whatsoever, in putting your head in the sand and acting as if an untrustworthy person is trustworthy.

Orchid,<p>I said it as she was walking past me. She continued walking and sat down on the couch. I went upstairs to watch TV. <p>melody, <p>You're right. "Questionable" is not the right choice of words. Maybe I'll reword it as follows:<p>"I may have done some things this past year that you resent, but everything I did was with the hopes of saving our marriage and keeping our daughter's family together. I have no need to defend these things nor do I feel guilty about doing them. I did what anyone else would do in my situation". <p>Should I even bother with this note/email, or just drop the issue and stick with my original response?<p>sad dad<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad dad:
<strong>
Should I even bother with this note/email, or just drop the issue and stick with my original response?<p>sad dad<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I really like the way you worded this email but I thought your earlier remark to her was very appropriate: short, sweet, undramatic, and without any inappropriate guilt or groveling.

melody,<p>Is that a "yes" about sending the email, or should I drop the subject? Maybe I'll just save it for my plan B letter someday.<p>sad dad

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad dad:
<strong>melody,<p>Is that a "yes" about sending the email, or should I drop the subject? Maybe I'll just save it for my plan B letter someday.<p>sad dad</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You know the sitution better than I do but I would send the email. I think it's well written and to the point. You make it clear that you want to resolve the problems in the marriage but you also make it clear that you don't feel guilty about taking steps to do so.