I've read so many posts about A's and WS's and have seen a vast variety in lengths of time in which the A lasted. My H was in an EA with his OW for about a year prior to it becoming a PA which lasted for nearly three years. I was not cognizant of the time frame of his A but was rather suspicious about his involvement with our mutual "tenant". He denied ALL and I truly wanted to believe him to save myself the agony of knowing the "truth". He came clean with me late this past Spring and we've been on a radical road to recovery. Radical because he is not living with me through no choice of our own. My H is incarcerated and has been for the past two and a half years. Yet, he is being released in early 2002. Therefore, attempts to totally reconcile have been met with obstacles, to say the least. <p>Despite my rattling, my attempt is to learn how many others who post on these forums have dealt with long term A's? I'm so afraid that he will not be able to forget about this woman due to the many years that they had bonded with each other. Do long-term EMA's have a more devastating effect on a marriage? What are the probabilities of the marriage being saved? Too many questions.....

Hi GeezLouise:<p>My WS also has been involved with the same OW for years...she has been in and out of our lives...married twice, divorced, still currently married (Husband lives upstate while she claims they have an understanding)...in jail (DWIs)...in rehab...but like a bad penny she keeps coming back. <p>I will say that once since the A has become public its intensity has deteriored considerably.
OW is now living with someone else (also not her husband) but WS has burned so many bridges it may never be possible for him to come home again. <p>I think it's a good sign that your WS never left you for the OW...that implies that he still wanted the marriage enough to try to stay in it...and apparently didn't want the OW relationship enough to get out of the marriage.<p>No one can give you guarantees about what will happen...I think you probably have to give this marriage one last chance...if he is willing to give up OW...now that is the only way...either give her up or you need to get out...because if he can't make the break from her after this long separation...he may never be able to without living in a day to day situation with her...and after 4 or 5 years of this, I'm sure you don't want to have to endure that too.<p>I wish I had more hope for you...but I've got more for your situation then I do for mine.
I hope it works out for you.<p>Faye

My WH had a A lasting one and half years. It became PA in 6/2001. OW dumped him for OM and now the fog is lifting.<p>
SLH

Read my signature line. I feel very down today. I can relate to you.

My H's PA began 4/98, lasted 18 months, followed by contact until 2/00, still see each other at work. They played on a pool team together fall 96, I suspect the EA began beginning around then but they knew each other before that even.<p>We've been back in the same household 18 months and doing good. One spouse can keep the marriage at the point of reconciliation for quite some time, Plan A, Plan B time frames consider 2 years after discovery. Once the A is over, the marriage can recover if both partners are willing to put in effort.<p>I think the longer the A, there are 2 factors that enter in:
--did reality enter the relationship or was it still secret? That keeps the fantasy alive and prolongs the A.
--behavioral patterns, habits are set with the OP and withdrawal can be harder if it is not the WS idea to end the A.<p>If your H has ended the A and is willing to work on the marriage with you--counseling, accountability, honesty--you've got a good chance to make it work.

Well, what can I say right now.. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] but I'll let you know when I get there.

I AM extremely hesitant to post on this topic, but maybe what I have to say will help.<p>I have been in an on again, off again EA for the past 10 years [nearly]. We met in 1992. I fell in like, he fell in love. He wanted marriage and I did not. [He's 11 years older]. I felt that I was too young. So we parted as friends.<p>He married the next woman that he met. She was a single parent and they had a child (a son) together. I knew that he was married, but he didn't know that I knew. We had dinners, long emotional talks on and off for the next several years. He often cried on my shoulders about how hard his marriage was, she's not who I thought she would be, etc. But he kept working on the marriage as he does not believe in divorce.<p>I dated lots of other people, got pregnant and had a baby. When my son was a few months old we consumated our relationship.<p>We were on again, off again for a long time. Basically every time she called he went running back home. He wanted desperately to make his marriage work, but also wanted love, attention and affection in the mean time. I had other relatinships, but when they would fall apart he was always there for me (sexually and otherwise).<p>Finally last year he commited to staying with his W no matter what. I told him that that was fine with me as long as he did not neglect my needs. My needs were few. Fun, sex, love, affection. We made a deal and life was fine for about a year.<p>Then he decided that he didn't want 1/2 his life with her and 1/2 with me. He wanted me completely. <p>Problem, I was happy with the way things were, and apparently so was his wife.<p>He had a huge emotional breakdown and ended up in the hospital. His entire family knows and is accepting of me. They see me as his "good friend" and say things to him like "do what you need to do, but don't leave your family." <p>I have grown tired of being the "good friend" and have moved on. He is still my friend. We speak about once a month or so. He wants desperately to work out his marriage, but honestly his love bank is just about empty. I have on idea what'll happen then. Our shared history is just as deep and in some cases more meaningful than the one he shares with his wife. I still love him and want what's best for him. I don't know that we'll ever be together. I don't know that I even want to be with him long term. I'm dating another person who I care for VERY much, but I still compare him to my MM.<p>All of that to say, if he's committed to you and you're committed to him, there's hope. The question becomes are you willing to try and make your marriage work?

Katie Scarlett,<p>I may be torturing myself by asking these questions. I really mean no harm to you by asking I just hope to gain some wisdom out of this. <p>If you are tired of being the good friend
and he wants desparately to work on the marriage
and hes commited to staying with his W no matter what
then
why are you two still in contact every month. <p>How do you know that your shared history is just as deep and in some cases more meaningful than the one he shares with his wife?<p>How do you know his wife was satisfied with the ways things were?

Why contact? I love him. I have known him longer than any man I have ever had a relationship with. I want to know that he's ok. I have said to him "if you don't want to hear from me, let me know." He has NEVER refused my call. When things are going well with his wife he won't speak to me and I accept that. HE'll just say, "i'm fine and I can't do this right now." And we go on with our seperate lives.<p>Also, he wants to work on his marriage. She does not. She does enough to keep things status quo, but God help him if he wants her to be "wifely" [ie, show up at family functions, cook dinner]<p>A great deal of the major events in his life have been shared with me and not her. Valentines Day he was with me. Christmas he was with me (and my family) early in the day and with his family later in the day. He didn't see her until late Christmas night. <p>I think that his wife is satisfied with the way things are because she knows and does nothing about it. In fact the only time she seems to care is if it keeps her from doing something that she wants to do.<p>He's something of a sugar daddy. She was a poor singel mother when they met. She'd be nuts to leave becasue now she has nothing to worry about financially speaking. Plus he lets her live the life of a single woman.<p>Ok, he's a sucker, but still a good guy.<p>I am very successful on my own. I don't need his money. I fell in love with his heart. Little by little over the years my respect for him has been severly eroded. Still in all I wish him well.

I hope this doesn't turn into:<p>But...why Katie Scarlett... Why is the sky blue?<p>1) How do you know she doesn't want to work on the marriage<p>2) How do you know she doesn't want to show up at family functions or cook dinner<p>3) What did he tell his wife where he was on Valentines and Christmas - Probably at work or something.<p>I guess what i am trying to say is all you know about her is what he tells you. <p>But I can relate to his W also in that:<p>1) I no longer want to work on our marriage as much as I use to.<p>2) I too don't like going to family functions sometimes because it all feels like such a sham.<p>3) I use to believe every sorry excuse H came up with.<p>Its just so sad. When you are lied to for so long and you believe everything you hear until reality continues to slap you in the face. I don't know what I would do if my H contaced OW AGAIN. I think I would just take him up on his offer for him to move upstairs in the spare bedroom until the kids are out of high school. I just feel like I am prostituting myself to give my heart and soul and body to him. Yet he continues to contact her. Meanwhile, he swears his undying love for me and swears I am the only one he ever wants to be with. Probably tells her the same thing. <p>None of this (my problems) is your fault. <p>Has his W tried to contact you? <p>I would love for the 3 of us (Me, OW and H) to get together and let him say once and for all what he wants. How would you react to this? Is this something I should suggest. It's like, he HAS to choose. Then the one he doesn't should accept No Contact. What do you think?

Not heard,<p>I don't want to torture you. And it's true, I only know 1 side of the story.<p>We are a bit different in that I don't see this as a contest between her and me. She wins! She can have him. He and I want COMPLETELY different things. He want's a really traditional wife just like his mother. Long suffering, loving, at his beck and call. I'm not that woman.<p>I want a friend and lover. NOT A HUSBAND!! {I guess I should say not my OWN husband). I am unwilling to make the level of compromise necessary to be a good wife. We've had LONG talks about this. I don't want to be the kind of partner that he needs. <p>Our relationship has gotten to the point where he doesn't even have to give excuses for why he's not home. In the beginning I would hear him on the phone with her making his excuse. When we were spening a lot of time together this last time around I think that she's so fed up that no cover story was required.<p>Before I EVER came into the picture, she had left 4 times. She took the kids and disappeared for a few weeks one time. She contacted him and said "it's over." Later that same week I spent the night and we had sex for the first time {after a 6 year on and off EA).<p>She came home and said "lets work it out" and I was persona-non-grata for like 6 months. Then things fell apart and I was having a hard time with my boyfriend. So that time we were both cheating. And let me tell you that in some ways it was wonderful and in some ways it felt like sh-t!<p>It was good to be with him and feel completely accepted and understood. At the same time I kept asking myself "how come I cannot connect with my boyfriend like this?" He was asking himself the same question about W.<p>MANY, MANY, MANY nights I have held him while he cried and grieved his relationship with Dawn. Many nights he wished that I was her. I'm not talking about sex, i'm talking about companionship. He has said to me a million times "I have screwed this up..."<p>During the time that he was really trying we have had zero contact. For as long as 2 years at a time. Then it falls apart again and he reaches out to me as a friend.

I've probably already said to much, but feel that I should add:<p>My commitment was/is one made to him and to our friendship. I never sought the greater good of their marriage. I saught the greater good of me, and of my friendship with him. <p>He and I have discussed on more than one occasion the fact that HIS commitment was to one of marriage and that it's not my job to take care of his marriage. I have told him over and over that if he felt like contact with me was not in his best interest, or in the best interest of his marriage then he should let me know.<p>There have been times that he's said "not now-Katie." And I have respected that.<p>Once after a long seperation he called me. I asked him over and over, what about W. Where does W think you are? Etc. Finally I had to ask myself "why am I fighting for a marriage that i'm not even in...ESPICALLY when he isn't."<p>So we came to an understanding of certain ground rules and our relationship continued.<p>For the record, I am NO LONGER TOW.

Dear Katie,<p>I wrote a post to you at noon today, then deleted it, because I felt bad about was having trouble being understanding of your situation. I see now that I was not alone in reacting to what you said.<p>Katie, you are saying you love this man who has wanted his marriage to work for 10 years. He worked on his marriage by sleeping with you? For years? You show your love for him by selfishly using this man you "love" for sex and fun, I believe you said. You don't want a husband, just a friend. And you assume that the betrayed wife is satisfied with sharing a husband who works on his marriage by having sex with you. Excuse me, I am seeking the logic here.<p>For goodness sakes, what you feel is not love. It is selfish exploitation of a weak man.<p>May I challenge you to prove you love by getting out of his life? Continue to leave this poor foolish man alone. I see selfish manipulation on your part, not love. How can there be any peace for any of you? This may be the most disfunctional set of relationships I've read about here. Pathetically sad for you all. <p>May you find the decency to leave these people alone for good.<p>BTW, why are you visiting a marriage builders site?<p>"I saught the greater good of me.." quote from Katie. Enough said.<p>
Estes<p>[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

Estes,
You'll get no argument from me on anything that you have said. I'm here to understand. I lurked here for a while before I ever begin to post because frankly i'm fascinated!<p>That probably sounds strange to you, but it's true. I am a small town girl who moved to Manhattan with nothing 10 years ago. I was FULL of unbridaled ambition and made it my business to get who and whatever I wanted-reguardless. And I have.<p>My college roommate dreamed of being somebody's wife and having a family. I used to think that she was INSANE! I wanted a fancy apartment, world travel, nice things, etc.<p>In that process, I found a man that I wanted and I had him. There were times that it mattered to me that he was married and there were times that it didn't.<p>This year I turned 31 and began to take stock of the kind of life I have lead. I am the single mother of a 3.5 year old little boy and i've had to ask myself what I kind of life I was giving him. As a child I was given everything I could have ever wanted materially, but had busy, professional, absentee parents. I want to be a real mom for my boy. I want to give him a real home with real meaningful values. Something that I still seek for myself.<p>I am retiring in the Spring and will be a stay-at-home mom. I'm selling my apartment in the city and buying a home in the surburbs. It'll be a new, strange and exciting life for me.<p>So, historically, I have been a self seeking, unrepentant OW. Now I seek to be something more. It is, as i'm sure you already know, a process. [Hell, i'm a NYer. Just being nice on a regular basis is a process. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ]<p>Anyway, there are certain values that you guys just assume that everyone has. Like "don't sleep with someone's husband." I never learned that. Or at least I never saw the value in it. In my mind, if I wanted it, then it's my job to go after it. And if the guy is weak, all the better. My values have served me VERY well in business. But i'm finding there's not a lot of use from them as a parent. Nobody appreciates cut-throat on the playground.<p>So, i'm here as student, listener, observer. And maybe, someday, i'll make somebody a 1/2 way descent wife. [altough truthfully I still stuggle with trying to understand why anybody would want to be that. Espically considering you can get all of the perks without the resposibility-if you play your card right.]<p>Still learning,
Katie Scarlett

You know I reread what I wrote and I think that somebody will read it and think me cruel and heartless. <p>I'm really not. If you met me you'd think "girl next door." Mother's love me. It is only here [in a blind forum]that I can be really, really honest with myself and others.

Katie Scarlett,
Can you answer these two:<p>1) Has his W tried to contact you? <p>2) I would love for the 3 of us (Me, OW and H) to get together and let him say once and for all what he wants. How would you react to this? Is this something I should suggest. It's like, he HAS to choose. Then the one he doesn't should accept No Contact. What do you think? <p>I don't see that his W wins. You say your not TOW. The continued contact hurts too. My thing is I have always said if you want to be with her then GO! But he never goes. I think it would be easier if he did. <p>The kids is what makes me stay too. He has put them through soooo much hurt. I am not that selfish. I can't just think of myself. I have these 2 great kids that didn't ask for all this trouble. <p>You say your here to learn and you are at a point where you are re-evaluting your life and your morals. Have you ever been to a Bible believing church? Would you consider it? I would be dead today if it weren't for my relationship with the Lord. Just a suggestion.

Katie Scarlett,
I think my H OW is a lot like you in that she doesn't care that he is married. However she is not successful in the working world. I am the successful one. I think it helps my H confidence level to be "above" her. <p>Are you from a broken home? OW was - her dad left with OW and her mom was in so much pain that she couldn't help her with her pain. That is another reason it just doesn't make sense to me. <p>My H sent her a No contact on his own free will. I didn't ask for it. He also cc: all our friends and family. I then sent her this email: <p>OW,
H sent you an email that said he has hurt some
people by continuing an inappropriate relationship
with you. H is a grown man and he is responsible for his own actions but you did play a part in it. My God says to love you and bless you and pray for you. Although I am mad at you I will pray you will never have to go through the pain and heartbreak that my family is experiencing now. I did feel like I had a
responsibility to share my heart because me and my
kids are real people with real feelings and real hurt.<p>W<p>She never replied. Also, when they were in the title of "just friends" i called and asked her if he was seeing anyone - I was so naive. She said I needed to talk to him about that. I said I did and he says hes not and I am the only one. She said she wasn't comfortable having this conversation with me. Meanwhile she was sleeping with him. <p>It just hurts so bad. What about just human compassion? I have a lot of HATE for her but I still attempt to treat her with respect as a human being (my email to her). I would never set out to intentionally hurt someone. I wouldn't want my actions to cause pain on someone for my own self serving purpose. <p>Please help me understand.

#1-Has his W ever contacted me? Yes. A LONG time ago she left a message on my voice mail at home. She said, "hello, this Mrs. MM. Please return this call at (her work phone number)."<p>Let me just say that I have built a VERY successful career based on facing down challages that nobody in their right mind would face. So I was VERY anxious to call her back. To me it was a challange. I called back RIGHT away. (Honestly, it felt like a game to me. A conquest if you will) PLUS I had been DYING to talk to her. Like I said, I never thought of her an the enemy. It was high drama, entertainment. PLUS I felt like "who the hell is SHE to be calling ME. She NEEDS to talk to her husband."<p>It took the the rest of the afternoon to get her on the phone. She answered and I said "This is Katie Scarlett, returning your phone call. How can I help you?" She sat there for a moment in stunned silence. Then she said that she didn't remember calling me. I asked several times if she was sure that there was nothing she watned to ask me. She said "no." And so I hung up. Disappointed.<p>I was SO curious to know what kind of woman she was. Like I said, it was a game to me. I NEVER thought of it from the point of view that it was this woman's life.<p>Several years later I called him cell phone and she answered. She asked who it was and so I gave her my full name. She paused and handed him the phone. He was PISSY to say the least. He was sort of trying to keep it quiet and I didn't care who knew.<p>#2-Would I want to meet with the 2 of them. SURE! I admit that i'm a narssacist [sp?]. I'm not that invested in this in a certain way. I'd love to just know the truth. If I never spoke to him again i'd be sad, but if he's happy then that's fine. I'm not invested in making a life with him. I have another [single] boyfriend now.<p>#3-Am I from a broken home? Yes. My mom is the queen of all self-righteous, narssisicm [sp?], and my father's 5th wife divorced him a few years ago. My family is VERY, VERY religious. VERY! My mother has never remarried.<p>#4-I was raised in the church. And frankly, am not impressed. I believe that there is value in the bible and spiritual teachings, but have gravitated towards more eastern paths. They don't advocate being TOW. So i'm studying.<p>Frankly, I have seen more sin and godlessness done in the name of "i'm a christian" than anything. So i'm really not impressed with bible thumping folk. In my estimation, the difference between me and "believers" is that at least i'm honest about what i'm doing. TOO many of them are deluding themselves into believing that if nobody knows then it's ok. That appearences are more important.

Not heard,<p>You said:<p><strong>"It just hurts so bad. What about just human compassion? I have a lot of HATE for her but I still attempt to treat her with respect as a human being (my email to her). I would never set out to intentionally hurt someone. I wouldn't want my actions to cause pain on someone for my own self serving purpose. " </strong><p>Historically, my thinking on this has, nobody ever stopped to make sure that I wasn't hurt becasue of their own selfishness. So this much time later, why do I care. You'll get over it. I did.<p>I honestly don't know what to think now. I don't want to purposely hurt anyone, but how can I be sure that my needs will be met unless I make sure that they are?<p>So if other's get hurt in the process there's nothing I can do.<p>[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

Dear Katie,

Thank you for answering my post. I am impressed with what you are doing - rethinking the value system and goals you grew up with.<p>As your upbringing influenced you, mine influenced me. We could not have learned a more greatly different set of values.<p>I was taught be word and example to be considerate of others. I was taught that a properly raised person sacrifices her own wishes for those of others if it would help another. Example, if there was one piece of cake left, you should never take it yourself is someone else wanted if. My parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles treated me the way they taught. I am eternally grateful for my relatives and the values I received from their example. I truly cannot imagine relating to people with a "me first" attitude.<p>How our experiences form who we are!! I'll write more later as my students will be arriving soon.
I am interested in what you are doing.<p>BYW, what approach to life do you want your child to have? Which approach will make him/he a person with more peace in his heart?<p>Estes