My DW & I have been getting along great actually -- just a couple things came up dealing with some of our understandings -- my feeble attempts at a couple limits or boundaries -- she more or less confirmed a couple more compulsions -- Don't be too alarmed, I did not make another discover of A!
She has some shopping compulsion issues, & an eating disorder that came to light or focus, as a result of discussions precipitated by me because of my discovery that she purchased a calling card & we have three already with over 90 minutes. She was making a campaign this summer about us using these cards for long distance service & I agreed, but suggested we keep cards at home instead of her carrying these. She got real defensive about that, like why did I not trust her -- I said if she's not doing something she shouldn't, why make it a secret & why not use this as opportunity to give me some comfort & you earn some trust. I thought it was pretty clear that there was no real purpose for her to carry these -- we call our daughter in Philly & our family in Indiana & she is always saying she is too busy to talk to me at work, so what's the point? She had no good answer. When she mentioned making a toll call I had mentioned a couple times to use a card & she would say it is too big of hassle to deal with extra numbers. The issue has not come up for 3 months & these cards not been used. I should mention that she does not have a college degree, but she is very intelligent &#8211; I.E. she got very creative with cover ups for A's & when she found out I was checking her cell phone bill last November (actually ours -- both phones on same bill), she later confessed they made contact by leaving messages & using pay phones, & of course she has use of the phone at her work. In fact she called me the other day on her work's fax machine phone, which is in back room, away from customers, other employee traffic -- her boss & manager know about her A's & our recovery, so she is more limited than before, as these guys called her at work, pretending to be sales people. Her boss deals with all the sales people now, so her availability to speak to guys at work is somewhat limited.<p>I found a receipt this weekend where she purchased a calling card. Anyway, I was asking her about these cards we have & she said she did not know where they were & had not seen them & I asked her if she had any -- I she said no &#8211; I said perhaps we should use them, as one is expiring in couple weeks &#8211; I left one on desk. She had no comments. I causality brought it up to her again yesterday, to give her another opportunity to mention she got a new card. No comment. Yesterday I called to see how many minutes were left on the cards that we have had & I found out one of them had been used Monday evening & not the one I left on desk! -- just a minute was used and to area code of IN. When I asked her about the these cards this morning, she again said no, she did not know where they were, but said she would look for them & I asked her directly , &#8220;You don&#8217;t have any calling cards?&#8221; she said no & she followed with an irritated, annoyed tone, like are you accusing me of something(?!) tone, why? I answered that I am just wondering. I let some time pass, then I came back & told her that I was calling & found out one of the cards was used yesterday. She got very nervous, meek & confessed to finding this card on Monday in this purse size, phone directory, address book (happens to be one she kept OM&#8217;s numbers, so yes there is trigger here!). She said she called her divorced Cousin & did not get her &#8211; just machine. I said I gave her several opportunities to tell me & asked why she did not tell me &#8211; I asked what is the big deal? Nothing wrong with calling cousin? She said she did not want to tell me because I had asked the other day & if she told me found one, she thought I would get suspicious. I said I don&#8217;t understand, you couldn&#8217;t tell me that you ran across it that day? She said she knows it sounds stupid, & as soon as she told me again this morning, she felt she should not have covered it up, but couldn&#8217;t &#8211; later she said she felt like if she would have told me she would have been like scolded & she did not want that. ?? This may not matter, but this card has been out of my sight for months &#8211; never though about it &#8211; But I was looking at this address book a few weeks back & I know the calling card was not in the book then. ?? There have not been minutes used on this, so I honestly don&#8217;t understand this apparent secrecy thing?
I must have asked three or four more times over an hour and half as we discussed issues, if there was anything else &#8211; any more cards --- she repented told me &#8220;No&#8221; This was not confrontational, as I was being somewhat calmn.<p>I clarified that if we want to use cards for long distance, we&#8217;ll try it &#8211; keep cards at home &#8212; She was agreeable &#8211; did say that she liked opportunity if she felt like calling family while in car to use card. I said that I don&#8217;t understand logic &#8211; no roaming charge, but still burn up cell minutes, which on her plan is somewhat limited. She said she did not understand that --??
Shopping &#8211; our finances have been real tight & she had agreed this summer that when she bought cloths she would tell me. In the past I would many times ask about outfits she is wearing & more recently I have asked, but try hard to not make it judgmental. This weekend I had also found a receipt from the &#8220;Limited&#8221; (same store she bought outfit for her date on D/D! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ) where she spent $75 on 11/05/01 &#8211; Last night I entertained discussion about our clothing discussions I said I don&#8217;t know her outfits & I&#8217;m always asking if they are new & I mentioned, &#8220;Like the skirt she wore to church on Sunday.&#8221; She said that in that case it was new &#8211; I did not get at all upset & wanted to give her an opportunity to tell me about the two tops she got at the same time. I asked if the top was new as well? She said no & I let it go. No confrontation at all!
In her confession about the calling card, she was in distress (I mean I don&#8217;t know that it is all that big of deal?)&#8230; she said that she is stupid, that she likes how we were getting along & that she realizes that she is right back to ground zero with me on this trust thing &#8211; I suppose, she wanted me to comfort her that it was not an issue &#8211; I did not let her off the hook &#8211; I brought up the cloths thing &#8211; I said I thought we agreed that you were going to be open & honest &#8211; she said she has been trying really hard & thought she was doing better. I told her that it is not fair that when I ask if something is new, she gets all defensive, yet she does tell me when she buys something new. ??? She then told me she bought two tops & that she was taking one back. She then said she&#8217;ll keep skirt & take tops back &#8211; I said I really did not care, it&#8217;s just that I would like to know.
Again, I asked if there is anything else she wants to tell me &#8211; she said like what & I said any other purchases. We were in bathroom at the time & she pointed to cosmetic thing. $12 &#8211; I said That is not significant (she knew that). We went to formal dance 11-02-01 for which she bought two outfits & one was to be taken back. I asked if she still had both dresses & she said that she did & that she intends to take the one back & will.
I should mention that she has lost close to30 lbs. in last 20 months (lost in 4 to 5 months & has maintained loss.). This summer I took an informal accounting from one of her dressers & she had 96 tops. She is not cloths' deprived.
With the cloths thing, she became distressed and self critical &#8230; she said she is worried about money for Thanksgiving dinner & she wants to schedule appointment with Counselor, which is $25 & spends money on cloths & that she ordered diet pills from catalogue on Monday &#8211; She said she is stupid & does not now why she does this!!<p>We were talking about her cousin she tried to call & my W started crying again. She said she has been vomiting more and wanted to talk to her about this &#8211; Cousin is confirmed Balemic and has continued struggles with this &#8211; My W said she is not as bad as her cousins, but it is becoming more and more difficult &#8211; she said she really likes being thin & does not want to go back to the way she was &#8211; she can&#8217;t believe she let her self get that way &#8211; she asked me not to say anything to her boss, because her boss had asked her about that & she told her boss she did not vomit. Another secret.<p>I had given her a brochure about this 12 step program for women with eating disorders, which a fellow S-anon guy gave me. He said many of these women also suffer from SA. I told my W that I want to clarify this more and what it is about, to be sure she understands, but that I&#8217;m not going to push her into it &#8211; it is her that has to take the initiative. I cannot work her program, she has to volunter. I also explained that I may be able to get numbers from female SA if she just wanted to talk to them &#8211; I emphasized that she has to bring it up though that I can&#8217;t force it. She said she would call eating disorders &#8211; not a real heart felt commitment though. One of those statements that kind of indicates she&#8217;ll call, but a degree of vagueness that does not make it real crisp, for sure &#8211; hard for me to explain, except that if I come back & say that I UNDERSTOOD that she was going to call, she might say that she did not say that, that she was going to think about. It might have been something like &#8220;I guess I could call the person.&#8221;<p>I wanted to give her some comfort that I loved her & wanted to help her, so in my kissing her goodbye and hugs, we end up on the bed & we have sex &#8211; no surprise, I know &#8211; she definitely felt better afterwards. She said thanks, that she knew I did not really want to. She asked if I felt guilty &#8211; I said no & asked how she felt &#8211; &#8220;better&#8221; She got a &#8220;fix&#8221; You might think it would click to her?<p>Patrick Carnes book, &#8220;Out of the Shadows&#8221; speaks about how these compulsions run together.
Has she hit bottom enough to seek help? Time will tell. I&#8217;ll give her some time to come clean with calling card, but I&#8217;m not optimistic that it will happen. I offered idea that we make commitment to use cards for long distance & maybe we get another &#8211; she jumped on that and said she could get one at Sam&#8217;s club that they were cheap (she bought one for 100 minutes for $17.00), but then I said I don&#8217;t think we need one yet, we have close to 100 minutes with cards that we have had. It would be nice if she coughed up the card she bought -- ??<p>I did not bring up the things I discovered with her private use of her toys!<p>I of course welcome any insights or comments!<p>I just spoke with her & she is seeing her Counselor tomorrow, he had an opening. She is also really concerned about her relationship with our D &#8211; They had brief, but cordial telephone conversation last night, but she said she felt some tension. That is something she said she wanted to talk to him about.<p>She said she did not know why I keep her &#8211; She seems to be making the bigger of deal about the phone card "call" she did not tell me about, like &#8220;I&#8217;m guilty as charged, I don&#8217;t deserve to be trusted kind of attitude.&#8221; She is definitely acting depressed.<p>I'm wondering if I've been too tough on her?<p>Any suggestions are welcome.
HH

HH,<p>Man, if I only had your patience!!! I don't think you've been too hard on her, at least from your side of the story (there are always 2). It sounds like you were calm and respectful. You're giving her chances to make the right decisions/come clean.<p>IMHO, I think you're doing well.<p>Sorry I don't have much USEFUL input, but I just wanted to share my thoughts.<p>Good luck,
Kev

No offense HH but reading your post gave me the willies. You do sound calm and reasonable and so forth, but you also sound like you are your wifes father or something. She is an adult, and can do whatever she pleases, I don't know why she hasn't told you in no uncertain terms to get off her back, I wouldn't put up with your questioning at all, much less over and over and over. I get the sense you are trying to get the goods on her, always watching her, passing judgement on her behaviour, and so I'm sure does she..... you are turning this woman right into what you fear, a sneaky deceptive individual.....why? Not to hide anything necessarily, but to fight for her own identify from an overbearing, critical, controlling husband. SHE DOES NOT NEED TO ANSWER TO YOU FOR ANYTHING, you are not her keeper, not her boss, have no status whatsover to require anything of her. You of course have the option of accepting her or not, so if you don't like her, then leave, quit trying to make her conform to your idea of recovery. So what if she got another card, so what if she calls the om, you'll find out in due time, in the meantime focus on yourself and try to understand why you must be in control of all this. Give her some space man, let her breathe, trust her, and if she fails trust her some more, what do you have to lose? <p>Having said all that, it is not unreasonable to have expectations, but let her decide too. Give her all the cards (for example) discuss the economics of losing their value if not used, and leave it up to her. Tell her you are no longer going to check on the cards, or even keep track of what cards she has, much less what numbers are dialed....but that you do think it reasonable she tell you if she contacts om, and if she does you will just thank her for the honesty and say/do nothing else. If she has a shopping complulsion that is easy, you put her on a budget (both agree too) and let her manage it herself. The bulemia sounds serious, and it is fundamentally a control issue, when someone has nothing else in their life they can control (or percieve this) they will control themselves....that she is being driven more to this (I gather) is ominous, and may be a direct consequence of your trying to manage her life. HH I think you probably mean well, and sound like a benign controller, but man you are everywhere....ya know? Get out of her face. Of course I may be all wrong, so just ignore this if it offends you. Good Luck.

SNL-<p>I have to respectfully disagree with you. If HH WS has comitted to working on the M (and I don't recall if that has been said), I absolutely DOES NEED TO ANSWER TO HH FOR EVERYTHING. This goes to the concept of radical honesty. If she's not going to be honest about a phone card or a skirt and two shirts, how is HH supposed to then trust that she's not using the card to call OM.<p>It's these baby steps that are supposed to lead to a greater trust and respect. Granted, during the A, and during Plan A (and Plan B) the BS must not expect anything, must not demand anything....but I don't read this situation as being in any of those states (I could be wrong there). If they're in RECOVERY, then I think HH has every right and WS has the RESPONSIBILITY to meet these "requests" for radical honesty head on.<p>Just my $.02.<p>Kev

kev, I am not disagreeing with how recovery works, I am saying HH cannot make her do so, and by continuously being on her back he is being coercive. She (and the rest of us) are all sovereign human beings and answerable to no one, unless we choose too, and in the way we choose. HH is usurping his wifes self-determination, he is doing it skillfully, and ostensibly in the interest of his marriage, but I don't really believe him, I think it is about him and control. Maybe I am wrong, I hope so, but I calls em as I sees em, and folks can do with it as they will. I have a lot of experience with controlling behaviour in all it's subtle incarnations, people object sometimes to my observations, sometimes vehemently object, frankly the more vehemently they object the more likely I was correct. I doubt I am always right, but I am certain I am right far more often than not, kinda like a bloodhound re controlling behaviour. This doesn't mean someone who is exerting too much control is a "bad" person, it is just my assessment of how they are proceeding, many controllers are in high states of denial, just refuse to accept could be true...... but I will tell you this, you don't always see control by observing the controller, sometimes it is more obvious by observing the behaviour of the one the control is directed at. We all "control" it is the nature of being human, but it must be acted on in psychologically healthy ways, and that is the test. IMO HH is focused far too much on his wifes behaviour, and not nearly enough on his own, he doesn't seem to understand interrogating his wife is not ok. But what do I know, I am just a foggy ws.

Kev,<p>Thanks for your support. I must say I was a little shocked to read Sad_Lonelies comments.
But she has a right to her views & I always interested in others perpectives.<p>Sad_Lonely:<p>I do not have time to summarize an indepth summary of me & my WW relationship, or the but I feel I have been totally manipulated & controlled, but I am not expert. Perhaps I am controlling & in denial ??
Thanks for your reply. I asked for it & you gave it to me --- sometimes I whine & vent and need some constructive criticism & other&#8217;s perspectives &#8211; that is why I post &#8211;thanks for your feedback. Perhaps I went into too much detail in an attempt to give a full, accurate picture of what transpired. With that I feel a couple of my points were perhaps not understood the way I saw it. <p>One point is that she seems to have made a bigger deal out of this than I would have expected actually. Is only thing I felt you may not have captured. I mean I still don&#8217;t understand her apparent need to fib about using a calling card to call her cousin?!<p>I agree that I need to go back & focus on my program &#8211; that is why I mentioned that I had lost track of the cards for a couple months &#8211; I can&#8217;t fix her or work her program.<p>Given our history I do think I have a right to ask for some openness & honesty. This was a big, big issue, which she more or less agreed to when I emphasized I was not going to grill her about all the details of the past, but try to focus on the here & now. Even after 5 couples counseling sessions with counselor urging the adoption of some kind of marriage enrichment program, my DW does not whish to participate. As per a counseling session, she pretty much wants to sweep it under the rug & move on &#8211; I tried that method 20 years ago with first D/D &#8211; I don&#8217;t think it worked real well. I know I can choose to just give her the boot &#8211; I&#8217;d like to try & work through a recovery.
About a month ago she did actually said that she is comittted to me & she has shown more affection & admiration, which are tow things I have mentioned & she initially said she just could not change that way. Believe me, we have come a long way -- that is why I'm questioning myself a little & asked the questions.
I want to be fair & I don&#8217;t want to be the controlling &#8220;father image&#8221; you described. Perhaps if I expanded a bit you may get another perspective or perhaps not, but I feel compelled to offer a bit more background.<p>It may not matter a lot, but I should mention she confessed to having sex with two guys, many of those times in our home; although she says they used the guest room &#8211; you might say she was being both hospitable and considerate of my sensitivities! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] During this same period of time she & I enjoyed a very active sex life. She says the first guy seduced her & although when he did not call back & she pursued him with numerous calls, even when she was visiting her cousin 300 miles away, those records show she made calls to this guy 11:00 & 11:30 at night. And,according to her confession the second guy got involved when he came to the house & said he knew what she & his friend (the first guy) had done, so she invited him up to the guest room. I mention this because it is interesting that when we last spoke about this (about 4 months ago), she said that these guys were predators & she did not feel responsible. Another reason she offered at the time of confession was that it was exciting and she got caught up in a game of sorts. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Her statement that is supposed to give me comfort that she is committed to me is that if this happens again, she&#8217;ll tell me. She won&#8217;t keep it a secret.<p>Now, when she has difficulty being open & honest about using a calling card to call her cousin, do you really expect me to have a high level of comfort that she&#8217;ll be open & honest with me about a contact with another guy?! I&#8217;m no expert on Harley&#8217;s &#8220;Policy of Openness & Honesty&#8221;, but this just doesn&#8217;t seem right to me. ??<p>The cloths thing &#8211; I&#8217;m in commission sales & I have to admit, we are in the pits financially &#8211; took second mortgage to do house repairs & consolidate debt last year, have credit card debt of around $10,000 & we are behind on virtually everything. So, yes when she insists on buying a new dress for dance & it&#8217;s been three weeks & she has not taken back second dress &#8211; and she goes to this mall all the time -- I have not said a word about that until today. I wonder about her priorities. Budget for clothes? This sounds a little controlling to me. I have always tried to talk about moderation.&#8211; Practicality. I have never been overbearing about anything, including any statement or demands that she not buy cloths. Now maybe I&#8217;m a little backwards here, but if I notice one of our friends wives wearing the same outfit to a dance two years in a row, I&#8217;m not going to question if I should hang out with them. Maybe this is just me. She is one that said she would cut back spending &#8211; I did not insists or demand &#8211; I have just asked that she tell me &#8211; a little openness and honesty &#8211; keeping this a secret from me I don&#8217;t see how this helps either of us. ?? We are still married. Not two independent entities.<p>Anyway, I suppose I could just go forward & never question anything & maybe nothing will ever happen again or maybe next time I&#8217;ll get a call from an angry wife or all of a sudden I have a severe burning sensation when urinating & wonder why that would happen?? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Or, perhaps I continue to look for better ways to try and better the marital relationship & get some of my feeling or needs incorporated, cause I know that if I never call her at work, never ask her any questions, never ask her to do anything differently in how she treats me & I continue to be sexual with her two times a day, as far as she is concerned things continue as is &#8211; no problemo! Don&#8217;t I have any rights to have a say in this arrangement?<p>It&#8217;s when I try to bring up a point that is for me, problems croup up. I cannot always rollover & ignore things that come up. <p>I&#8217;m just trying to protect my feelings & do what I think is prudent. But if I&#8217;m truly Mr. Control person here I need to know that to &#8211; I certainly don&#8217;t have this all figured out; that is why I post.
I am many times a slow learner, so don&#8217;t hesitate to bang me over the head if you feel necessary!<p>Thanks,
HH

Hmm HH I am 51 too, live in the midwest (MI), and been with w 29 years, so if you are also a typical middleclass wasp (or catholic) we have very similar "eviroments" and cultural conditioning (whatever that implies). Indeed I can only respond to what is written, and your post was well....nevermind have already addressed that, now on to the additional info.<p>HH....One point is that she seems to have made a bigger deal out of this than I would have expected actually. Is only thing I felt you may not have captured. I mean I still don’t understand her apparent need to fib about using a calling card to call her cousin?!<p>snl....Upon reflection my opinion remains unchanged re this issue, it is almost classic. People often "fib" and conceal seemingly (and often is true) trivial stuff, it is definance, and a desperate attempt to feel in control....I would say you trigger this in her (in part... with your additional info would surmise she has plenty issues solely her own as well).<p>HH...Given our history I do think I have a right to ask for some openness & honesty. <p>snl.... Of course you do, it was how you were asking I was commenting on in my round about way.<p>HH...This was a big, big issue, which she more or less agreed to when I emphasized I was not going to grill her about all the details of the past, but try to focus on the here & now. <p>snl...That was big of you, considering you do not have the means to grill anyone about anything without their participation. First rule of engagement, never make (or imply) a threat you cannot deliver on. But I hear ya, assume you were saying you would not be a pain in the [censored], and confrontational. And that you would APPRECIATE her being honest and open. The point being you were communicating you would do your part to create a safe atmosphere for her to do that...right? Hope that is what she heard, I am not sure from your phraseology, this might seem nitpicky, but I am saying HH the difference is huge (and particularly to a ws).<p>HH...Even after 5 couples counseling sessions with counselor urging the adoption of some kind of marriage enrichment program, my DW does not whish to participate. As per a counseling session, she pretty much wants to sweep it under the rug & move on – I tried that method 20 years ago with first D/D – I don’t think it worked real well. <p>snl...You are right, the rug solution never works. If she is recalcitrant you tough love her. There are no other options, the consequences are immutable, you don't participate (in a recovery program that makes sense, is subject to review, may or may not include counselling), you lose your spouse, end of story.<p>HH...I know I can choose to just give her the boot – I’d like to try & work through a recovery.<p>snl...Why?<p>HH..About a month ago she did actually said that she is comittted to me & she has shown more affection & admiration, which are tow things I have mentioned & she initially said she just could not change that way. Believe me, we have come a long way -- that is why I'm questioning myself a little & asked the questions.<p>snl....A 100 miles is a change, but on a 10,000 mile journey doesn't amount to much, you have to assess whether your w efforts are significant changes, or just telling you what YOU want to hear...ya know? That is what happens when a strong individual leans on a weaker one to hard.<p>HH...I want to be fair & I don’t want to be the controlling “father image” you described. Perhaps if I expanded a bit you may get another perspective or perhaps not, but I feel compelled to offer a bit more background.<p>snl...Ok, but are you trying to convince me or you?<p>HH...It may not matter a lot, but I should mention she confessed to having sex with two guys, many of those times in our home; although she says they used the guest room – you might say she was being both hospitable and considerate of my sensitivities! During this same period of time she & I enjoyed a very active sex life. She says the first guy seduced her & although when he did not call back & she pursued him with numerous calls, even when she was visiting her cousin 300 miles away, those records show she made calls to this guy 11:00 & 11:30 at night. And,according to her confession the second guy got involved when he came to the house & said he knew what she & his friend (the first guy) had done, so she invited him up to the guest room. I mention this because it is interesting that when we last spoke about this (about 4 months ago), she said that these guys were predators & she did not feel responsible. Another reason she offered at the time of confession was that it was exciting and she got caught up in a game of sorts.<p>snl...Whew, HH, that had to be a brutal thing to hear...do you believe her? Do you think she really did it? Do you have any independent proof, did you talk to the om (I would have). If it is true, I would probably divorce her. <p>HH...Her statement that is supposed to give me comfort that she is committed to me is that if this happens again, she’ll tell me. She won’t keep it a secret.<p>snl...I am not saying don't check up on her, only don't grill her, or intimidate her. Keep it to yourself.<p>HH...Now, when she has difficulty being open & honest about using a calling card to call her cousin, do you really expect me to have a high level of comfort that she’ll be open & honest with me about a contact with another guy?! <p>snl...Nope, I sure don't think that she is to be trusted if she lies, I am just saying your behaviour muddies the waters.<p>HH....The cloths thing – I’m in commission sales & I have to admit, we are in the pits financially – took second mortgage to do house repairs & consolidate debt last year, have credit card debt of around $10,000 & we are behind on virtually everything. So, yes when she insists on buying a new dress for dance & it’s been three weeks & she has not taken back second dress – and she goes to this mall all the time -- I have not said a word about that until today. I wonder about her priorities. <p>snl...I believe I said put her on a budget (just don't lecturer or grill her). Harley (or someone) talks about this is a book, supposed to poja it, not demand it, a touchy path, but doable apparently...in any event, someone has to watch the store IMO.<p>HH...Budget for clothes? This sounds a little controlling to me. <p>snl...Only controlling when no legitimate cause.... otherwise is CONSEQUENCE and one we all understand.<p>HH...I have always tried to talk about moderation.– Practicality. I have never been overbearing about anything, including any statement or demands that she not buy cloths.<p>snl...So you say, your post sounded overbearing to me. But I will take your word for it.<p>HH...Anyway, I suppose I could just go forward & never question anything & maybe nothing will ever happen again or maybe next time I’ll get a call from an angry wife or all of a sudden I have a severe burning sensation when urinating & wonder why that would happen?? <p>snl...Those are the risks you take in remaining with this woman. Trying to cover yourself will only fail, and in the trying you make the failure more likely. You can only control you. I am not suggesting you be a voiceless doormat, by all means communicate, just do not educate, interrogate, judge, etc. <p>HH...Or, perhaps I continue to look for better ways to try and better the marital relationship & get some of my feeling or needs incorporated, cause I know that if I never call her at work, never ask her any questions, never ask her to do anything differently in how she treats me & I continue to be sexual with her two times a day, as far as she is concerned things continue as is – no problemo! Don’t I have any rights to have a say in this arrangement?<p>snl...Cute. Of course you have expectations, and act like someone in a marital recovery. But her participation has to be completely voluntary (and not subject to your inspection), that is my point. Let her be, she either does the work or not, if not, you leave......<p>HH...It’s when I try to bring up a point that is for me, problems croup up. I cannot always rollover & ignore things that come up.<p>snl...It could be (and quite likely is) your wife is manipulative, the question is why, how much of it is in reaction to you, how much is her, what is she willing to change etc. The only wildcard here is YOU. YOU change, to the degree you want, and you watch, you see what she does, it either works or it doesn't. <p>HH...I’m just trying to protect my feelings & do what I think is prudent. <p>snl...YOu cannot protect your feelings, that is part of the deal, you gotta put your neck on the chopping block, or it will never happen. Bit prudent is ok IMO.<p>HH...But if I’m truly Mr. Control person here I need to know that to – I certainly don’t have this all figured out; that is why I post.
I am many times a slow learner, so don’t hesitate to bang me over the head if you feel necessary!<p>snl...I do think you have control issues HH. Not that you are hateful or hurtful. But I am only commenting from a small amount of evidence, I can't know how you have lived your life, but clearly something is amiss. Content married women just don't suddenly invite essentially strangers into their homes for sex. This was an incredible act of aggression against YOU. Your wife is either extremely angry with you, and wants to be thrown out (not having the guts to leave on her own), or is a seriously disturbed woman. One scenario is that you have caged her in a soft, but very real cage..... my goal here is not to judge or analyze you, just give you a point of view, food for thought....good luck.

SNL,
Good points --lots of food for thought -- thanks!
I really do appreciate your insights -- I could definatley use some help, like I said I don't have it all figured out!
Get back to you later!
Peace,
HH

You gals are being tough on me! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
I don't mind, perhapsI deserve a slap in the face. and I know you care!
You are wearing me out a little here, as I'm not the speediest typist!
Here is reply I made back to BINthereDUNNthat (on other thread, (OK,I'm gready, looking for a lot of attention!) bless her heart!
BtDt,
Ouch! Sorry -- you know I've been working hard at not obcessing!
For the record, the top count was unofficial. I counted the number in one stack and the number of stacks per drawer. I did not take pictures to confirm additions at later date!
Please refer to this same titled thread on General Questions II & dialoge with SLN as I've been leveled with similar charges there.
In my defense, the questions came up on this phone card thing. It has not been a constant burrage of questions (sp?).
I should also mention that for years I have felt a need to chat occasionally with my DW during the day (you'll probablly remember other post about this) and she would get annoyed at me & insist I not call -- even on her days off at home. She had her own world on Wednesday's & Friday's & she would get made when I asked her about her day & believe me I have worked hard for years to ask the questions in non-threatening, non-judgemental ways! Even when she was/is away visiting friends and family, church events &/or trips with boss -- last 15 months or so, she's been on her own trips for a total of around 5 weeks. Her typical thing is, "Don't call unless you have something really important to say!"
I have called my WD during the day a total of about 5 times in last three weeks! Two of those this last week, & she has changed her tune & told me that she did not mind me calling her.
You know that my DW works three days a week. I typically wash & dry the cloths, she folds & puts away, I iron my own shirts, help with vacuming, do the toilet thing & do the trash -- I'm not really like Archie Bunker!
But I can definately use some tips -- My delivery could definately be improved!
Thanks for caring!
HH