<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

I think your W seriously lacks in consideration. She has got some underlying issues here.<p>That said:<p>I, too, am often silent when H acts like an [censored] with my child. I guess I feel it's better than starting a big argument that will turn into a huge fight. Like last night, my daughter was out playing and ate dinner at one of the neighbor's. When she came in, she saw a piece of pie on the counter and asked if she could have some. H said no, you can't because the kitchen is closed. Mind you, this is the same jerk that eats 2-3 times after dinner sometimes. He just does it so he can bully her around. But I let him do it and then later in the bedroom told him that he was a jerk and I hated his behavior. He is a stingy person---one thing I just can't tolerate. And he thinks it's perfectly okay.<p>He did tell her she could have some pie, after he was an [censored] about it, but she better not leave a mess...how much mess does a fork leave?<p>So, while I can't help ya, you know you aren't alone in this leaky boat.

OOOO,<p>I don't know if I will give you the right answer but here's my opinion. <p>I found that after D-Day, I was so unsure about things that I kept my mouth shut most of the time for fear of what might happen. I was afraid that I may drive him further away. I conditioned myself not to respond or to try to avoid moments like that by controlling myself and the children. The children are the unfortunate reciepients of some very strange behavior. Mine were confused by their father's behavior at times.
You have to be very careful about what you say to your child when it comes to another parent. You don't want to appear to be taking sides or to pit your child against your spouse.
I understand that you realize saying something to your wife about her behavior in the theater would further aggravate things. But when it comes to the kids you could just say, "be a little easier on her she's just a child" or something like that. Be sure not to correct your wife in front of the kids. It undermines her authority. I also think that a child, does not have the right to correct a parent, especially over something like talking in the theater. It's disrespectful. What behavior will she critisize next? I'm not saying that your wife was right or that she handled things the best way. But I can see whre she would have gotten frustrated from having a child correct her on her behavior repeatedly.<p>just my 2 cents.

I have a lot of experience with this too as the H of a woman who has a difficult time being challenged re her behaviour. And like you, I tried hard to stay out of such incidents with kids, knowing it would get 10 times worse. It is a lose lose situation. The kids want to know why one parent lets another get away with inapropriate behaviour....I mean would you let your w hit daughter? Of course not, but this is verbal abuse and you let em. In my case, I assessed the seriousness of the issue, and if it reached a trip wire I intervened, told my wife in no uncertain terms to knock it off (after the usual polite attempt which never worked), and let her turn her wrath on me. <p>I also had to fairly early on make it clear she could never get physical with the kids, that I would clean her clock if she did, and I had to enforce that a could times as well..... until they were big enough to defend themselves. Let me hasten to say my w is not particularly physically abusive, it is just when she got really enraged she would attempt "physical discipline" or actually engage in a fight just as if she were one of the kids herself (if you know what I mean). I only had to restrain her a couple times, but it was pretty awful.<p>I don't know the "approved" psychological solutions to this oooo, but I have an opinion. Anger (which is what your wife is essentially using) is a control mechanism. IMO you do not let someone get very far with it, you set very strict boundaries, and when violated you confront them, nose to nose if necessary. First you try reason, hopefully having some kind of tools from counselling about the issue. If that fails you tell em they must stop, and if they don't you remove (if possible) yourself from the situation, or remove them. But whatever you do, you always communicate to them you are not ok with their behaviour (not an argument, you just tell em), that if they continue this behaviour your responses will become more and more ridgid until you finally plan b them. The price of anger should be you lose your family.<p>After these episodes (some of which I stayed out of too) I would go talk to the child, and tell them it was not ok to be treated that way. Even if they weren't completely right. I would also try to validate and discuss whatever the issue was, and make it clear I would (as much as possible) try to make things right. I would also explain their mom loves them, but that this is her problem, that she never learned good coping skills, and feels threatened when challenged. She grew up in an emotionally abusive home, and was always wrong, was critized alot. I also try to use this as a learning experience, pointing out that even if they are growing up with some not so good examples of how one copes, they at least can see how not to cope. Hopefully as parents someday they will remember this, cause they all (now as young adults, and teens) have anger/selfish issues.<p>It is also important you stand up to your w. You are the head of the family, and it is very important your children do not see you as subservient, and controlled, by your w. They should see instead your w follow your direction, or at least have boundaries and repercussions imposed by you for her willful inappropriate behaviour. This meant (in my case) a gauranteed level of tension for our entire marriage, whether I did right, I do not know, but it feels right. However, it also played a large role (the constant tension between w and I) in the emotional withdrawal of our marriage. IMO after some point, you (the angry one) should realized this is not working and stop it..... IMO you do not use anger on people you love, it is indeed about you, and your needs above all others, and is a legitimate reason you lose your spouse and children. My w was relentless, she never gave it up, only now....because of my A, and the realization I left her, has she decided to change.... again not about me, but because she doesn't want to lose something. I don't understand angry people, I do understand anger, but not people who live their intimate lives this way. She rarely argued or abused anyone else, most folks find her pleasant, and helpful, was only me and the kids....for some reason if you are two close to someone, inside their inner defenses, they feel a strong need to keep a wall up, and that wall is anger, somehow it seems they feel it protects them. Somehow they feel if their family challenges them, they are not loved, and they react with anger I think.<p>As for your particular circumstance this time, the solution would have been to take the kids and move to another part of the theatre, telling your w she was not invited. If she made a scene, then you simply take the kids and go to the lobby, or go home. Anywhere along the way she is free to be reasonable and negotiate a solution. As for how to communicate there are all sorts of books and stuff, even MB stuff. Obviously you do not LB, or chastise her, you simply indicate calmly her behaviour is unacceptable to you.<p>This will obviously result in a crisis, as she challenges your resolve, you actually have to be willing to let the marriage end, and she has to know you mean it (if it goes that far)...otherwise settle in, cause if you don't make it clear this boundary exists, she will control all of you forever....She may experience her own eppihany somewhere along the line, but that is pretty rare. Mostly angry people only respond to consequences, and right now, there are none. I did this with my w, but did not go all the way, I was never quite able to put the marriage on the line (for the kids sake, I often wonder if I erred)...but I did do it to the extent if she got physical with them I was going to intervene, and if she wanted to divorce me fine. I also made it clear I would (when I saw the need) intervene in verbal confrontations and overide her decisions, and if she didn't like it, she could divorce me. She threatened alot, but she never filed, and she I wouldn't, so instead she continued at the level I would put up with...... in hindsite I think I screwed up, but I was afraid of losing my kids, and I think I was emotionally dependent as well...so I didn't make the boundaries tough enough. Keep in mind the angry person may not give it up, they may choose to leave you if you will not be controlled, but then if they do, one has got to figure that is probably for the best.

Well Well,<p>When the children are involved...<p>Moving to another part of the theater? Would have caused a huge problem. Asking your W to 'shush' would have been another huge problem. Letting your daughter hash it out with her was in my opinion the best way to handle it. It didn't sound to me like the daughter was being the least bit disrespectful. As for a child correcting an adult... I believe its okay. If the adult is portraying behavior that adults wouldn't tolerate from their own children, I think by keeping the child quiet and restricting their freedom to speak is wrong. AS LONG as the correction isn't disrespectful. If it was off tone, you might could have interjected a thought to your daughter, that the embarrassment she felt is a valid reason for being upset and her complaint was notated and could have been left at that, or openly discussed at HOME not in a vehicular trip, where you attention should be at driving and not the dispute. (Safety note... ALL argueing, fighting, regardless of individual should be done while the vehicle is parked) And you could have used that to qwell the dispute until everyone was safe at home.<p>Other than that... OOOO I think you did the right thing.

OOOO,<p>for once i am not nagging. shock [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>questions? how old is your D? and if I remember your children don't know about mom's A but do you think she might know?<p>give me answers & I will tell you why I think what I think<p>but I will be gone till late this afternoon, off to class & to visit computer lab I can't open an assignment & I can't do excel when these are finished I will be all but finished with my online class. JOY JOY JOY JOY

h2y...Moving to another part of the theater? Would have caused a huge problem. Asking your W to 'shush' would have been another huge problem.<p>snl...This precisely what angerholics rely on, and why you must not give in to the manipulation. Not doing anything is conflict avoidance. The time to act was when the incident was happening. The natural consequence of being disruptive is to seperate from the disruptor. If she made a scene, that in itself is useful information, and would result in additional consequences. He might have tried asking her to step out into hall for a moment (assuming kids old enough to leave), and explain to her she must stop talking or a. we are going home..... or b. she is going to sit by herself. She can get as mad as she wants but she has no power to prevent him from taking action. If she still wants to escalate this into a full blown altercation (and does not resolve it satisfactorily later), then he can simply wait it out, go home, and file for divorce, there is no reason to live like this. That is what angerholics rely on, they will keep upping the ante until you cave, you have to challenge them all the way, or they will never give it up. This is particularly hard if the genders reversed, women have a harder time with angry men, but there is no excuse for a man not setting boundaries on a woman, there is nothing she can do to stop you (in the primal sense, and what we are genetically hardwired to expect).

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by OffOnOnOff:
<strong>Thank you all for your opinion so far.<p>diddallas,

sing,
My daughter is almost 14. She knew about my wife&#8217;s A, but I don&#8217;t know how much she understood that. She might understand more than what I expect. She knew there was a man that her mother referred to as her friend involved and her mother came late to pick her up from school from time to time was because her mother was seeing or having lunch with this man.<p>[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Okay, the reasons I wanted to know your D's age and if she knew about the A. By being almost 14, she more than likely understands more than you would like. even with your sleeping arangments she know's that your relationship with your W is different than what her friends' parents relationship is.<p>My point that she may feel that your W has no right to tell her what to do. Your W was bothering your D at the movie, your D knows that if it bothered her, it most likely bothered other people, when she pointed this out and your W freaked, your D most likely thought who do you think your are.<p>My OS (yes my problem child) really doesn't think his dad now has any right to tell him what to do. If you can cheat dad, why can't I drink or smoke , or whatever, what makes what I am doing wrong. Of course what my son does or likes to pretend he does is illegal for someone his age, what is dad did is just morally wrong. <p>Sorry what should had been a pleasant outing was ruined. My boys and I had a date for Harry Potter and we had a great time. <p>Hope your holidays go well.<p>also remember ya'll are now dealing with a teenager, these are the yrs that make you long for the day they leave for home. There are days I could give you a count of how many days my OS has left at home. He has about 530 days till graduation. I didn't know, I had to figure it out [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi, <p>Me and my 2 cents here. Are you collecting? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Ok, my take is that you need to let both your children know how you feel. They need to know where you stand. You can do this discussion together or separate. You may also find out how they feel, especially your son. <p>Then at a later date either in person or in writing, you let your W know that you have disucssed this situation with the children and since you would not tolerate anyone else acting this way, neither should she be allowed to abuse your daughter and teach your son how to be rude in the theatre. This in a sense would not be a direct attack on her but rather responding to an act that you both would not tolerate from any other person. Then you could end it by saying something like, if your W feels she is different and should be allowed to behave like this, please let us know so that you can notify everyone else so that they would not be offended in the future when they witness her rude actions. They (whoever they is) can just chalk it up to hey that's how that woman is, kinda child like and likes it that way. Even her kids know about it. <p>Is that Brash? Yes, it is for me when dealing with that kind of attitude, tolerance is not a good thing. However, when and how you choose to deal with it is your choice and you can catch them unawares by planning wisely.<p>JMHO,
L.

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>