Good evening everyone.<p>I just got off the phone with WS, she called to see if her sister had arrived and to have me tell S that WS is going to do her own thing tonight (movies with friends, don't think OM is involved, didn't ask, don't really care).<p>I asked her about the email that she'd said she sent me to work after I left....basically it was about her not sleeping her even though the rest of her family is. I told her that I respected that, but that I was hoping she would as part of her whole "live in the moment this week" thing. She replied that that didn't mean she was going to jump right in bed with me...made me laugh. I told her that's not what I meant.<p>Since we were already on the topic, I asked her if she had come up with anything for my request of the other night: Find a single reason why she SHOULD fight to save our marriage. She said she couldn't find anything other than to get everybody off of her back. I asked her if she realized that she'd given me several reasons in her emails of the last couple of days. She asked what I meant, so I read excerpts from them:<p>"I bawled my eyes out on Friday when I stopped by the house. We have done so much together and acquired so much. I cried Saturday night after a sappy marriage movie..."<p>"...Believe me when I say that I know I should try, that life would be much easier if I felt something, and that it would make things easier on you. The last thing I want to do is devastate you and strip you of hope for future relationships or of a good life in general."<p>Basically, she knows it's RIGHT to try, she is concerned for me, she feels remorse over the possibility of losing our history, etc...<p>BUT....she insists that she doesn't WANT to try. I told her that I believe WANTs got nothing to do with it. If I'm reading the MB principles correctly, all that is required is to CHOOSE to put your heart in the position to get EN met, and it will probably follow suit and develop romantic love. Actually, I watched a thing on the science channel a week or so ago about the physiology of love, and it said the basic same thing...<p>We can't CONTROL our hearts, but we can CHOOSE to put our hearts in a position to fall in love (I explained, much like she chose to kindle her friendship with OM, and eventually fell in love). She's just unbelieving, and she's afraid to let me hurt her again and doesn't want to believe that I am changing.<p>Again, it all comes down to time. In time, I think the A will die (at least I hope it follows the statistics, though I have a sinking feeling that it'll at the very least push the time boundries), but I don't know if I have that much love left for her. Neither do I want to just go to plan B, because I REALLY think that without having to consider me, she'll be able to have a shot at making the A work....I know that sounds really stupid considering his age, but that's just the way I feel, I think they could make it work for quite some time.<p>Oh, well, SIL is here. I better close.
K

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>Good evening everyone.<p>K</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Good evening, Kev. Sounds like you are feeling a little better today, which is a good thing.

Kevco,<p>What you need is a {{hug}}. I know not from me but you need one anyway. So close your eyes and pretend it is from the woman you married the one who loved you and will come back (someday). This confused babbling she does shows that she is not committed to the A. Will it die? In time. When? No one knows. <p>You want it now and it probably won't be. Will you continue to berate yourself as a result? Will you? That is up to you. <p>Yes, the answer is simple to you and many others but not to the WS. They want to fit the round peg in the square hole and the round peg is bigger than the square hole. They just don't get it and you can't tell them anything. <p>So stop trying. Let others see them doing this. Don't try to protect her when others ask questions or give those funny looks. Practice this because it could hurt. You need their impact to help you. <p>L

Hi Kev,<p>You do sound better this evening. <p>All your concerns are valid, Kev. But I believe you need to stop discussing your marriage or relationship with your W. Make your convo's light, don't discuss heavy emotionally charged stuff with her, and if she initiates it, listen very closely to everything she says. But try your best to keep it light. <p>You're doing so good. This is so hard. We all know what you're feeling and going thru. <p>And yes, what you wrote is true regarding the MB principal of "choice", but that's a different phase from what you and W are in right now Kev. Your W is still in deep FOG. <p>I'm so glad you're hanging in there, having the relatives there over the holidays will hopefully take some of the edge off too.<p>Take care, Kev.<p>Lv,
Jo

Feeling better? Yeah, I suppose I am....at least I'm not on the edge today. I'm just so frustrated about all of this, and I know WS is also. She had tears (of what she said is frustration) during our call, at least she feels SOMETHING towards me, I guess that's a start.<p>O- Thanks for the hugs, by the way, what's all this talk about a round peg being bigger than the square peg? You been talking to my W? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I've already committed to NOT interfering with any conversations over the weekend, and I'm sure there WILL be some. MIL is unable to help herself sometimes because of her stroke.<p>R- Good point about the part of the M that we're in. I guess I was asking her to make a decision to be in RECOVERY, and she's hearing me ask her to make a decision to end the A.<p>I know that the relatives being in town will help ME this weekend. I think it'll stress WS out. Kinda funny considering they're HER family.<p>Thanks guys, er, gals!<p>K

Kev,
Sounds like you have been through some times here the last day or so & I'm glad you are hangin in!
Orchid is a very wise person on this stuff, I highly recommend paying close attention to
her words!
Also, -- the Dobson book -- I have a sense it could help. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] If nothing else it gets you focused on your healing, while developing another strategy -- Someone told me that we can't make them love us --(I see myself in similar boat as you!) -- The Dobson book takes a slightly different slant -- Perhaps it would help to show some independence. Not quit as obviuos with intent to please -- she is doing nasty things to you, so she would naturally feel guilty about receiving all this "needy" kind of attention. You speak in terms of her giving you so much time, how about you reverse the tables & tell her that you will give her so much time? Just a thought -- you know you & her/ Reverse psychology kind of thing. Hmmm ... Dobson book might help. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
The science program about love you spoke of reminds me of one I saw -- they spoke of physilogical charge we get with new stimlus -- infaturation thing -- new relationship, expires in 6 months, is W close to this time reference?
Do you think she now has a higher need for Sexaul Satisfaction -- I know it is not right to have sex if feeling are not there, but perhaps a serious romantic, highly charged, physical involvement would have a positive effect towards you. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] We all have needs you know. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] You know I have my thoughts that this may be a drug for her right now -- why not you be the supplier! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Perhaps you make it a game -- tell her that you don't want to get this confused with real feelings, That this is more about lust than love right now, but that you miss her physically & ... well, you know ... make it hot & maybe a little dirty (in nice way!). [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
Keep trying what you think is best, but keep researching, never one best way.
Prayers,
HH <p>[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]<p>[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

HH,<p>In answer to your questions about the physiology, The PA is about 2 1/2 months old, the EA, I don't know about.<p>I'd like nothing more than to have ANY physical contact with her (except that I'm pretty freaked out about STDs- she MAY have been exposed to HPV- through her girlfriend and some playful - yeah, right, it made me FURIOUS- kissing). She's pretty adamant that THAT'S NOT going to happen....it's not like I've made any overtures or anything, but she's made a point (last night being the most recent) to tell me she's NOT going to sleep with me. Good thing is, I didn't ask, and so I don't feel any rejection for it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>K<p>[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]<p>[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>She had tears (of what she said is frustration) during our call, at least she feels SOMETHING towards me, I guess that's a start.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Kev -- Can you give it a rest? Causing her tears of frustration is not helping your cause. <p>As a WS who's been there -- having a H always wanting and starting heart-wrenching relationship discussions is emotionally and physically draining and EXHAUSTING. Do you want every conversation with her to be so heavy and deep? You want every conversation with her to cause her pain? You want to show her every time how wrong you think she is? How you've got the right path all figured out?<p>Plan A Kev -- is not to convince her how wrong she is and make her change her mind. Especially because these conversations you're having are a LB'ing minefield. <p>Make the changes in yourself that will please your wife and DEMONSTRATE them to her (NOT TALK ABOUT THEM!!!) Take the time to SHOW her that you can be the man to make her happy.<p>Nothing would please me more than to see my H get himself together -- to the point that he has confidence and strength and an inner happiness -- WHICH IS NOT DEPENDENT ON ME!!! I am sick to death of being the sole cause of whether or not he has a good day. I do not want that kind of power over him.<p>Weakness is not a turn-on. Know what I mean?

The Dobson "Tough Love" thing might have more to it than we think.............<p>Today I got a call from H, after he requested to speak to me from the kids' telephone call, which I declined. He phoned back. I said that I had told him I didn't want to speak with him, and I said so again in the phone, ready to hang up.....he just HAD to speak to me about stuff...he could easily have emailed me. So I found it heartening in a way....but I am at the stage where I don't want him back anyway....I am so angry.<p>Just a thought.

Hi Kevco --
I am new at posting here, but I so understand the position you are in. I see it simply as a choice to remain committed and then the feelings will come. My WH doesn't see it so clearly (obviously because of the "thick fog"). Just thought that I would say that you are not alone. Hope you have a good Thanksgiving!

Lexx,<p>Just so you know, I HAVE let it go. Though I did ask the question last night that sent us into a half hour spiral, I DIDN'T INITIATE THE CONVERSATION!!!! I WASN'T THE ONE WHO BROUGHT UP THE F'N RELATIONSHIP!!!! (that anger is NOT directed at you)<p>I would LOVE to have a normal day, without all the relationship talk/crap. In the last 4 weeks, since I really committed to Plan A, we've had maybe two such days. Through all that time, I haven't been the one bringing it up. Now, maybe I DO allow myself to get drawn INTO the conversation, but what am I supposed to do? Just tell her I don't want to talk about it and carry on- I see danger in that, she may well think I'm withdrawing AGAIN just like the last year.<p>Lexx, if you have a suggestion on how I can avoid or get out of these discussions, by all means, share it. I guess I'm just going to have to tell her that I won't talk about it, but I WANT TO talk about it.<p>I don't know, gotta go to sleep. I'm sick and tired (no, really).<p>Thanks,
K

kevco,<p>I think you should strongly consider Plan B. You stated you are starting to lose the love for your W, and that is a prime indicator of needing the relief provided by Plan B. <p>Also, your W is still conflicted, so that is a very, very good sign. She is fence-sitting. Plan B will also allow the OP to have to meet ALL of her needs, IF he can. You know, there has been no true consequence for her up to this point. If you go to Plan B, she will have to do it all alone - no more kev to pour her heart and troubles onto. Also, it will take away the opportunities for you to LB (educating your spouse, according to Steve Harley, is a MAJOR LB), because you won't be talking.<p>I know Plan B is scary - I personally was terrified of it. But truthfully, in the long run, the WS is the only person who can decide if they will return to the marriage. Plan B will help your WS get to that decision and end this triangle nce and for all: either she will miss you terribly and see that the OP can not meet all her needs and she will want to reconcile, or she will not miss you because the OP can meet all her needs, and she will continue to nurture that relationship and you guys will most likely end up divorced.<p>At this point, you have done all that you can do. Further interactions between you and your W are likely to erode your good Plan A, and/or further rob you of the remaining love you have for your W.<p>Please review a post called "The Misapplication of Plan A" by Distressed. Please consider going to Plan B very soon.<p>Good luck, Desiree<p>[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Roll Me Away ]</p>

Come on Kev.....<p>Go back and look at your first post on this thread.<p>"I asked her about the e-mail...."<p>"Since we were on the subject, I asked her if she had come up with anything from MY request of the other night...."<p>Those are topics YOU are initiating. Plus you're referencing that you gave her some kind of little homework assignment -- that SHE should come up with reasons to fight for the marriage. Then when she didn't have a good answer for you -- you fed all her words back to her.<p>I know you're scared and you want to keep the connection. But its not going to work in your favor if your interactions with her are laced with heavy sadness or frustrations.

I agree with you to a large degree about the "choice" thing. I think we can all choose to be "in love" or to just stay in a relationship for other reasons even if we don't feel "in love." I am willing to do that with my H because we have so many reasons to do so. He is not willing to. He thinks he should "feel" the "feeling" and since he doesn't it means the marriage is dead and we should move on.
I don't "feel" the "feeling" either, but THAT IS OK - that is what mature love is. We have been married 15 years and have 3 kids and feel a whole lot of stuff - the giddy, breathless tingling just isn't one of them.
Mostly, what I feel for him now is sorry. Because we are going to get this damn divorce and he is never going to be happy and satisfied because he going to keep looking for that stupid "feeling" and he going to miss a whole lot of really fabulous stuff while on his mission.<p>My point to you is this: She is choosing. You just don't like her choice. She is choosing to NOT stay married to you. Just like my husband is choosing. Sure, you are right. She could CHOOSE to work on it and hope the feelings come back. But, she isn't. Whenever we give people choices they may make the one we don't want. Your wife is making that choice. She may not even be fully aware of it yet, but she is. <p>I think it may indeed be time for Plan B. If if fully pushes her off the fence (on the other side, away from you) then it will only speed your recovery. Drawing out the amputation won't make it hurt less. However, it may push her the other way. Right now, she has the best of both - you and the teenager eating out of her palm. Why make a choice if I can have both? <p>Think about it.

Hi Kev,<p>Thanks for the reply to me (C in MA) on our suject. SOunds alot alike. Right now, the only advice I can give is similar to what yoiu told me. Keep trying with the positive reinforcement, and to support as best we can. There is an excellent book (that is spiritually-based) called Marriage on the Rock-God's design for a dream marriage(JImmy Evans), that has a lot of the same principles as Dr Harley's, except that it also says that if we continue to let our feelings run our lives, the person will be tormented by an emotinal roller coaster, and will not be happy. It also says that sometimes you need to trust in God and do the RIGHT thing, regardless of how you feel and have a willingness to work through the difficult times, and let the two of you spend quality time together to build up some positive feelings, etc. Right now, my ex is in the gray phase, and is taking her "time out" from the OM hard because he was her crutch (sound familiar?). I refer to him as such with her, and I said the only reason why you feel the way you do about me is because you won't let me be your emotional support. That's why I am on the outside looking in. I did say that it is interesting that you have been w/ him about a year, and you are still not happy? What does that tell you? SHe finally is going to her counselor for self-therapy. This may be good or bad, who knows. It seems that she has learned from her past to keep things inside and let them build until they explode, and that's what happened to us. Sound familiar? That is probably why we are all where we are right now?<p>I wish everyone the best. I told my ex half-kiddingly-Maybe we should go to the Orlando seminar on Marriage builders. She said that may be a possibility. (Where did that come from?).<p>All the best to everyone! Make it a good Thanksgiving! My prayers are for you!<p>Paul