OK, WS just sent me an email and called me to have me check it. She said she's probably going to call me later this evening and get my answer....You see, even I feel rushed.<p>I guess the option of stalling the decision to move in is out. She wants to know TODAY. I want TERRIBLY for her to come home, but I'm afraid that her timeframe for "knowing if she'll ever love me" just isn't possible. <p>Please read her email and calm me, tell me what you think, what I should do, tell me a joke, ANYTHING!!!<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I will be over on Tuesday night to do bills. I have therapy and so I won’t get there until about 6:00. I am sure we can eat leftovers or make turkey omelets or something like that. <p>I have to say that another part of my reservation about trying is the fact that I’ve hurt you so much already, and I’m afraid if you give it your best and I still don’t want you, that will hurt you even more. And the thing is, it may not have anything to do with you; it may be that my taste in a companion has changed. I know you are frustrated with me and that you think I owe you a chance. Can you see from my point of view how much that pisses me off? How I put up with so much crap that I view those times as chances? I don’t deny that you and I were great at times and that we accomplished a lot together. <p>Amazingly enough, I am trying not to think too much of OM; I miss him horribly, but he will
still be there. I took a long walk last night, and I thought mostly about the trying thing. Part of my fear definitely is the thought of losing OM. I’m sure that seems lame compared to what I will lose if I leave you, but I’m not sure anyone understands our connection. I absolutely have to get to a place where I can say that the majority of my decision is not that I’m not leaving you for him, because where would that leave me if he and I don’t work, plus the fact that I never want to find myself saying to him in a fight, “Look what I gave up for you.” That would be wrong and unhealthy. I’m starting to think I do need to “try”in order for myself to move forward with no doubts and no fears. It was quite a long
walk, as you can tell. <p>Trying, to me, means I will move in and attempt to achieve a degree of normalcy between us. It means I will allow you to try to meet some of my “emotional needs,” but I cannot imagine letting you touch me or have sex with me. Sorry. If, in a couple of weeks, I don’t feel like I am making any progress or find that I don’t give a rat’s butt about your emotional needs, which I don’t right now, then I will move back out. That’s all I can do and all I can say. That will be it. Period. Take it or leave it. If you want me to “try” this way, then let me know, and we will fetch my crap tomorrow. If you don’t, then I really don’t know what else to say.<p>More later.
WS<hr></blockquote><p>Thank you!
Kev<p>[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

I have read about MANY WSs coming home for much the same reasons...saying much the same things...the fog rolls in and the fog rolls out...<p>It is a risk...WS is putting the decision with YOU...only YOU can decide with what you feel comfortable.<p>If you do have her come back, your plan A has to be SPECTACULAR...'cause then if she leaves again YOU will know it is HER and not YOU...<p>Susan Page has a book called "How One of You Can Keep the Two of You Together" which could be really helpful to you in your plan A...give many 'experiments' to try...<p>Good Luck

You cannot repair your marriage in a couple of weeks. She will not be through withdrawal in a couple of weeks. <p>Don't do this Kev -- you're being set up to fail.<p>She has an appointment with Steve soon right?<p>She's giving it a lame (REALLY REALLY LAME) effort so that she can say to friends and family that she tried.<p>She's not trying for the right reasons. She's not following any of the MB principals. Do not let her move back in without those conditions.<p>Many people on here will tell you that there is such a thing as letting them return too soon -- without protections in place for the BS.<p>I know you want her back as soon as possible. But do it the RIGHT way Kev!!!

Dear Kevco,<p>Take it or leave it?/????? Well she is definitely trying to push your buttons. Kinda like paying the attendant, driving over those nails that let you out but not back in and finding out you forgot your briefcase on the parking stall floor, having to go back in but going in reverse.... what's going to happen to those tires? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So take it easy...... you don't need to go by her schedule. She wants an answer and you need more time to think about it. Step back and say "I hear you dear and I'll get back to you". Mean it but don't stipulate. Something may be pulling her time strings. She is not sharing this with you. <p>My H said the same thing. Over and over again. The first few times, it hurt and I tried to go by his timeframe. You know what? It was a bluff. I am not saying yours is but H's was. So I did as I suggested above and learned to say 'ok, I'll get back to you.' .....and went on my 'mad/merry way'. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Put the WS back in the wondering seat. H would ask me what I thought and I'd say, not sure yet, I'll get back to you. Then he threatened D a few times (see OW was getting mad at this point but H did not want me to know that). That's ok, the wise ones here pointed that out to me and so I was one up on them at that point. It felt good. <p>This help me take back the control over me that OW thought she had in the palm of her hand. <p>Don't let her take that away from you Kevco. Her talk about keeping her options with OM, need to be out there with her problems not yours. If you don't want OM in the picture in your relationship, then let her know. I'll get back to you...... in the back of your mind it could be when you know OM is out of the picture or on his way out. That is when I started talking with H, after he agreed to put OW out of the picture and prove it. Yep, there were a few backslides that gave me great stress but I stopped listening to his words/threats and told him to put his actions where his mouth was. In a nice way of course. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Get a few more ideas here before you go off and do anything. OK?!?!? <p>Take Care,
L.

Whoa. Interesting email. <p>Even I, as an outsider, haven't a clue what she is trying to say. On the one hand, she seems genuinely concerned about how you will feel, but on the other hand, she says she couldn't give a rat's but what you're EN are. Quite conflicting, IMO. <p>But then she says she's only going to give it a few weeks? Sorry, but EXCUSE ME? Does she seriously expect this whole thing to just disappear overnight? Does she honestly think that if she doesn't have any feelings for you within a few weeks time, then she can make a valid decision on your future? I mean, you can Plan A all you want, but if she is putting a very short and unreasonable time limit on this, then what is the point?<p>Oh dear. I've just been very honest with you and I hope I haven't hurt your feelings or made this any more difficult than it is, already, Kev. I don't know - I guess the question you have to ask yourself is, do you think you can Plan A your bum off while she is back in the house with you? Also, has she stopped contact w/ OM? If so, it could be the withdrawl fog talking in the email. She did say she misses him - makes me wonder if she is going through that at the moment?<p>No, sorry. In my opinion, she is being unrealistic in her time-frame and is demanding far too much than you can give right now. But then how can you explain this to her w/out LB's? Okay, I just realised I have absolutely NO advice to give, Kev. But I do feel for you and hope this works out. <p>Follow your heart, love. Do only what you think you are capable of doing without going insane. And keep us posted!!!<p>venusenvy

Wow Kev, so much of that sounds so very familliar to me. I've not gotten the ultimatum, when I moved back in 7 weeks ago, I was told "do what you need to". <p>It sounds to me like much of the confused muddle I get from my W often. I've gotten to where I take anything said very lightly, it'll all change tomorrow anyway... Your W sounds much more open and honest about what's going on in her mind though. <p>Could be she's doing (what I believe) my W is and putting on the appearances of trying. Make an effort and then be able to walk with the illusion of doing all she could. <p>I guess you have really 2 options... Have her move back in and see what transpires, knowing that any outcome probably won't be final. Or tell her that you're not sure that those conditions are acceptable for you and maybe waiting a while would be better. Or that you're not quite sure you're ready to make that leap. Something to that affect.. I figure either way she'll end up doing what she will.<p>I'm sorry I can't be of more help. I think if it was me I'd opt for her moving back home. It is much harder to plan A living together in some respects (you don't get the separation to unwind and recharge) but you also get more opportunity to plan A. I wish you all the best and the wisdom to know what that is. <p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I hear several things.<p>1) her reasons for "trying". If they are true, then...<p>2) her timelines. To me, they don't fit into "trying". It's not enough time, I think she's aware.<p>It seems so close; but is it? I think this is a bid to control the situation; it almost seems that it wouldn't matter if you were there or not.<p>I think that ws who do try are often ambivelant. But the timeline of several weeks is a killer.<p>If you opt to try, I would give her tons of space with no pressure. <p>Take it in steps. A safe environment. Normalcy.<p>And, oh yea...<p>TALK TO STEVE OR JEN.

Kevco,
I'm sure that some of my 7 separations from my H ended like your W is proposing, maybe even the majority of them.<p>It was very tempting & hopeful of me to think that 2 weeks, or "trying" would do it, when my H's attitude was still very much a waffle. He wanted to move home, until he got there, then he wanted to move out, and did, until he missed the family or I seemed to be moving on, then he wanted to move home, but couldn't stand it. UGh.<p>Here are 2 waffling, contradictory statements, just in this email:
I have to say that another part of my reservation about trying is the fact that I&#8217;ve hurt you so much already, and I&#8217;m afraid if you give it your best and I still don&#8217;t want you, that will hurt you even more
and:
or find that I don&#8217;t give a rat&#8217;s butt about your emotional needs, which I don&#8217;t right now<p>One of those statements may be true, but if #1 is, then #2 is not. And vice versa.<p>Right now, she's all taker: It means I will allow you to try to meet some of my &#8220;emotional needs,&#8221; but I cannot imagine letting you touch me or have sex with me.<p>That isn't exactly trying to acheive a degree of normalcy between you.<p>I took this chance...several times, and there were some good moments even in the failed reconciliations, I'm not sure that I regret taking him back into the house when he was "trying" but so...ungiving. It was tough, and caused some hurts in addition to the A. When we finally reconciled I had a fear of both reconciliation AND abandoment that many times seemed far worse than fears & distrust of the A.<p>It really depends on you.
1)If you accept her offer, be prepared to take Plan A as a personal challenge. Grit your teeth. It might work under these rather wretched circumstances she is laying out...if she is not in contact with the boytoy (sorry "man" just doesn't seem right for 19--I'm too old).<p>2) tell her to keep her crap right where it is. You love her, and believe she needs this opporunity without you, without the boy to decide what is important to her, how she wants to live her life. And, you'll wait for awhile (you can set a mental time, but you don't need to tell her) to give her time. If or when she is ready to really give it a try, you'll hopefully still be there for her. (kinda a Tough Love thing) And you can continue Plan A.<p>3) Plan B. Cut her loose to find her own way, for the boy to meet her needs with that special "connection".<p>I don't know what is best for you. The possibility of reconciliation, even under bad circumstances is really tempting. I never liked being separated, until the last one, which I nearly continued through to divorce.

Kev,
I have to say I agree that she is setting both of you up for failure. If that is her definition of trying (two weeks - I'll see if I have any feelings for you) there's no hope of her moving back home working.
I'd try to put her off for a few days until you can talk to one of the Harleys and get some serious advice. Tell her something to the effect of it being a huge and very important decision to make and you want to do what is best for the welfare of your relationship. Let her know that you're not comfortable making that kind of decision without giving it alot of thought. You can't let her control the pace of your working through this. She wants it to fail. She's trying to find a way to make you see that it will fail.
Don't let her force your decision. Take your time and consider all of your options. I would absolutely not accept the terms she just gave you. There's no way that will turn out well for you even if you can do a flawless Plan A for two weeks it's not enough time for her to see things clearly.
Just my opionion.

Kev,<p> Sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen to me. If were me, I'd buy some more time and I'd do that by asking some her questions to better help you understand what she has in mind. Some of the things I'd want to know would be;<p>1. Is the boy toy still in the picture during this time (at all?)?
2. Is total honesty part of the deal?
3. Is it really that she doesn&#8217;t care about your ENs or is she just not capable of filling many of those right now?<p>Her tone sounds extremely cruel in the email, so I would assume the answers to those questions would be enough to give you a direction, even if that direction is "I'll have to give it some thought and get back to you"<p>Good luck
HI

Well, as of last night, they decided to take a 2-3 week "break" which she then tried to force upon me....see my other link for THOSE details: Right here<p>I agree whole heartedly, two or three weeks is NOT enough time for her to do anything but miss OB. She's not going to just wake up with an apifany and say, "I LOVE KEVIN!!" AH, wouldn't that be nice.<p>It is very tempting to have her move back in. Even if it's for the wrong reasons. Simply put, it will give me an opportunity to Plan A better, she'll SEE DAILY the changes I've made (rather than once a week). It'll give her something more to miss when/if Plan B comes. If she does decide to leave, then I can ask her what I did wrong....her answer would have to be nothing. Just like Steve said- she wants to divorce you for the way that you ONCE treated her? How lame does THAT sound.<p>I'm leaning the other way though, as hard is it is. I don't think I can stand for less than 100% effort, and if that includes having sex, well darn it, I'll sacrifice it. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I think it DEFINITELY includes a MB style NO CONTACT letter. I don't think I can allow her to just tell him, "ok, I'm going to move in with him for three weeks, then he'll give me the divorce and WE can be back together again." NOT FAIR- to ME, HIM, HER! She must in no uncertain terms tell him it's over, that she's going to work on her marriage, that that's what her heart tells her to do.<p>I don't think I can allow the shortened time frame. It's all or nothing, isn't it? Either she's IN or she's OUT. She can't be "in for three weeks." NOPE!<p>Sounds like I'm rapidly approaching Plan B, but I'm going to NOT make these "demands" today. I'm going to TRY to put this decision off until she can talk to Steve. Otherwise, I'm going to tell her something like, "I'm going to leave the decision to move back or not up to you. It HAS to be your decision, but I don't want you to make it unless you're prepared to give 100% effort. This is your home too, and you are welcome her ANYTIME, but I just don't want you to do anything half way. It's not fair to ME, it's not fair to YOU, it's not fair to OM."<p>Something like that.<p>Your continued support is WELCOME!<p>OH, and Venus, the truth is ALL I ask of people (on this board or otherwise), thank you.<p>Kev

kevco-,<p>Could you disable both of your battreies for 2 weeks ?. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ... LOL !!!. She is still in her fog alright. I do not think you are ready for plan B, too short of plan A but you are the only one could answer this. I am probably in the minority to vote for let her in just because it will give you more access to her and show her that you are a changed man. Even if she walk out not because of your LB hopefully, you plan a seed back in her heart. Remember in plan A she is in the driver seat not you. I am more worry that you will LB more than what is her motives or risk of her to walk out again.<p>In any case, you could still buy time buy thinking about it and let her know your worry about too short of a time.

kevco,<p>Anger. Anger. Anger. That's all that's in that letter. Her anger and resentment, all directed at you. Her terms are, you bust your [censored] and any slight hick-up and I walk. You'd have more fun playing Russian roulette with 5 chambers filled [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My read is 1) the A isn't dead yet, so she's still in the fog 2) your Plan A does seem to have had an effect but it needs more time. And, MB principle, NO CONTACT with OP. Otherwise it won't work - you have no chnace.<p>You could try saying - when you're ready to break contact with OM, I'm ready to talk about living together again. Don't fall into her traps, and then keep the communication channels open....<p>- Freddy

kev- My H did a similar thing- was in a SERIOUS EA/PA last year and didnt know if he wanted our marriage but was leaning toward NOT. After he moved out for a month he said he wanted to "try' and moved back in. But his heart wasnt IN it at all- he said what I wanted to 'hear' but he slept on the couch, would barely touch me, wouldnt confide in me and generally made my life a living hell for the next 6 wks alll the while claiming he was 'trying' !!!!- he then filed for divorce on me at the urging of OW then finally snapped out of his blinding fog and cancelled the D papers. Even after THAT he didnt be intimate with me for another 2 mo until we went thru therapy together and he had to 'wait until his feelings for me came back.' This whole thing takes ALOT of time to work thru- even with your W cutting off her affair completely and going to therapy its a long long road. A few wks to decide to break up a marriage is not nearly enough time to heal this serious of a gash. Personally I wish I hadnt put myself thru that time when he moved back in but was not ready to re-commit. That made our reconcilation MUCH harder and I think it was emotionally damaging to me. lifeismessy

Kev -- you're not ready for plan B yet.
Plan A takes a long time. You can't just talk the talk....you gotta walk it too. And you haven't done that yet.<p>You've told her you want to change, and heck you may even have done some things to show her. But it will take a long term committment from you to demonstrate all the changes. Of course thats easier for you to do if she's at home -- but not required. And not even advisable if she's giving you a 2 week time frame.<p>Just pass on that very nice offer of hers, and continue to plan A her. <p>Pray that Steve will reach her next week. I hope that he can talk with her about the withdrawal she is/will be experiencing. So that she can reach the conclusion herself that 2 weeks is not fair to you. (obviously you cannot educate her on this....LB!)<p>Good Luck Kev....stay strong

I dunno kev, I don't think it is quite so bad as folks are saying (I could be wrong though), I do understand what your wife is saying, and there is a good chance she is being as sincere as possible. She is concerned about getting your hopes up, and that is part of being a ws, we aren't all hatefull sociopaths, you are allready hurt, the damage is done sorta, and why hurt you again? Plus she is probably a little scared of getting sucked back in to a situation she has decided to leave, and even after discovery she has not had a change of heart, so that is 2 rejections for you now. I wouldn't worry too much about the time line, you got nothing to lose, you want to plan a her, is easier if she is around you. Sex, forget the sex, you got no right to it anyways, no one does, is a gift, and if you reconcile it will return. She said all the right stuff about not trading one person for another, but was honest about her feelings. What more do you want? Yes the timeline is way too short, and if you can point out your concern about that in a clinical sense, without making any demands, she can contemplate that. Maybe you can suggest a monthly evaluation conversation about continuing, fine tuning the effort, that should reassure her she can go anytime without your guilt trips, staying having to be mutual agreement. Make no demands kev, except possibly about no contact, IMO contact makes it really hard if the ws thinks they can do so, I would make it a deal breaker. I did not stop contact for 5 months with ow, but it was all phone contact, and I made it clear to w I would continue till I understood what had happened. Was mostly just conversation about our circumstances (and mutual support as we withdrew), and what all this and life was about, no plotting against spouses, just doing what friends in hard places have to do. Not saying that was right or wrong, but it is unrealistic to expect a ws to just walk away from someone they have feelings about. But it had to end, and it did. Don't know where your wife is on this stuff, but definitely romantic contact, physical contact will not work. As long as she is committed to that, I say go for it. If it doesn't work, you plan B, and see what happens.

Kev,<p>I read all the threads on this post. I agree with Lexxxy, do NOT let her move back in. It's a setup, with you the sacrifical lamb. She'll be able to say "well, I tried, I gave you a chance" ... NOT!<p>I say you continue to Plan A for a bit more than it's Plan B time. <p>Let her know you gave her email serious consideration, and you love her and want your marriage with her, a NEW marriage, but you think it best things logistically stay as they are for now. Then Plan A you AZZZZ off. Absolutely NO LBs, Kev. <p>That's my vote.<p>We believe in you, Kev ... and are here for you.<p>Jo<p>[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Kev,
My man -- this can be entertaining, huh! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>This is getting way wacked out -- her letter to me, has some strong manipulation connotations -- I guess that is obvious [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] why all these stick time lines -- as others have pointed out [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] She said earlier that her girlfriends daugther would be too upset if she moved out before X-mas -- I think we knew this was BS before, but it is example that IMO, this women has absolutely no concept of valuing what is truthful -- only interested in what makes her happy! Permanent or temporaryy thing?
I concur 100% with Orchid & Lexxy's respective takes on this -- they are wise & honest about this stuff -- You guys are good!! Thanks for hangin around!
I hope I don't sound like a broken record here, but be careful with this plan A stuff -- I believe it can be mis-applied -- you can become too much of an enabler -- you want to be nice & you want to work like hell to impress her, but honestly, I don't think laying down & being subserviant to her every whim or desire of what she says she wants (she does not know!) is always the way to go or necessarily a way to win her heart! You're hangin in there and getting your points in sometimes, but it seems she is always has the upper hand or at least if there is any chance for you, she demands it be her way.
I say it is time to throw her a big curve -- or at least a change up or two -- when you continually throw the fast ball down the middle, that is strict Plan A stuff "without concern for your needs," they get used to it and know what to do every time -- somehow you have to change the flow of this river -- I know you know this, but I am suggesting you are getting to a point that you may not have anything to lose -- she is continually saying she does not want to try and to say that there is no way she wants to have you touch her -- what is that all about?!! -- it is not like she has been ms iceberg with the boy toy (as someone else said)! I know you want her to move back, I would probablly cave in too & allow her back, being the whimp that I am, but under no circumstance would I allow it W/O a no contact letter & if over two weeks & after repeated efforts to get physical & still no intimacy I would boot her butt out! What is the point?!
I think you have to prepare yourself for a showdown, IMO, otherwise even if she does comeback, you'll always be subserviant to her terms -- you can't control her, but we cannot allow our S's to control us either -- we have rights too!
I believe Dobson's book states something to the effect that sometimes we have to give them good reasons to change & sometimes that means a crises or conflict -- even if we start it!
Be fair, be nice, but be firm!
Prayers are still with you -- even if you don't read Dobson, we still love ya! {{{in a Brotherly way!!}}})
HH

Dear Kevco,<p>You are having a lot of support here. I am casting my vote to ask you to re-read Lor's post. She has a lot of good info here. <p>Your W's timeline and terms could be pulled right out from under you in a minute. So making plans based on her stuff might turn out to be very disappointing. Don't make life altering decisions in the fog. <p>Let her know you acknowledge her statements "honey, I hear you and think carefully about your what you have said." End it on an up note with no commitment. <p>Remember how the WS do that to us all the time? Well, goes 2 ways. You have an agenda also. You don't sound convinced so she should not be able to convince you until you are convinced. Excuse me that was a bit of fogese logic there. he he eh!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Take Care,
L.

Kev,
I don'twant to seem indecisive for you here, but after I posted I read SNL post & there are some ggod points about the sex thing -- I can see that is a point well taken!
Have I mentioned the merrits of the Dobson book?
Be careful! I am curious, why it is so important that she move in or that you have an answer by Tuesday? Seems she wants you to make spontanious decesion and it almost sounds like she cann't waite, then she makes all these conditions [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]
Take care!
HH