There is one more thing I think you should think about, Kev.<p>This A your wife is having needs to die its own natural death. This is a basic Harley belief. So, do you think their A is there yet or close to dieing out, I don't. <p>Knowing how very hard it is to wait the A out till it takes a dirt nap, yet allowing your W to come home to make a no-effort attempt at recovery isn't setting your spouse free to learn for herself. It may also prolong the A timeline.<p>Just my nickels worth.<p>Jo

I think I'm voting.....NO. Well, I'm going to qualify that, I'm leaving it up to her, but I don't think she's ready to meat MY conditions. I talked to my mom and her dad.....incidentally, she called me back within an hour or two wanting my answer...I told her to call back this evening.<p>Basically, I've written some stuff in my journal and I'll share it with you.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>WS, I want you to know that you are welcome to come her or move here any time you want to. I want you here, but I won't want you to give half an effort. If you're going to move back, I want you to be honestly and completely committed to our marriage.<p>To me, that means you end it with OM under no uncertain conditions, probably with a letter like that in SAA. I think it has to feel FINAL to OM and to you.<p>I also think it involves a committment of more than a couple of weeks. I believe the first few weeks you will feel a deep withdrawal from OM. I will not be able to positively affect you until that passes. In addition, it took us a LONG time to get to the point we're at, and we're not going to fix it in a couple of weeks. <p>Maybe we could have monthly re-evaluations to try to see if we each feel the same, better, or worse.
If you're able to make these committments, then I definitely want you to move home. If you're not ready for that level of committment, then I would suggest that you don't move in.<p>Maybe we should even wait until your session with Steve, to see how you feel then.<p>Please know that I DO love you tremendously, and I DO want you here, but not if failure is a predetermined outcome.<hr></blockquote><p>Well, any more comments?<p>Thank you SO much,
Kev<p>K

Oh Kev, this is tough. I understand the desire to have her home. But at what price to you. What boundaries are you allowed to put in place. She cannot be allowed to call all the shots on this one.<p>My WH moved out for two weeks, I was so desperate to have him home I'm sure I would have jumped all over it if he had sent me a similar e-mail. Thankfully I had a councelor who made me think about my own value. Instead we agreed he could come home for 2 months of trying to get to know each other again, spending time together, no realtionship or A talk. Also, he had to begin IC, which he has w/the same C I go to. Now the funny thing is that I never bring up "seriouse" talk, but he does, at least once a week and always after his C session. (I am expecting one tonight) At the end of two months we will decide on couples councelling or seperation. That was my condition. I cannot just sit and wait for him forever.<p>The point of all this, value yourself in this decision. I think we are both alot alike in the "I want to fix this and I want to fix it NOW" category. But, we both know there will be no epiphiney. Just hopefully a slow realazation of what is waiting for them right in front of their faces.<p>You have to do what feels comfortable to you. Hold your head high and make the decision you feel will be best for your M. I strongly urge you to have your own boundaries in place, she may not like it, but what is the worst that can happen now?<p>I hope something in this helped you a little. Plan A-the best you, the you YOU always wished to be. Not a doormat, no one wants to be with a doormat.<p>Needing

Hey, <p>A couple more posts showed up while I was typing. I think you are leaning in the right direction.<p>Stay strong

Dobson, Dobson, DOBSON!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway, thank you all for your very sage advice.<p>SNL and HH- I wouldn't presume to think that sex would be in the picture for months at best. >>>I<<< want it and I think as a married couple we somewhat "owe" it, but I'm not asking.... anyway, she has to get screened for STDs (haven't told her that yet) before I'll go there anyway.<p>Couple of you have asked if BT (bot-toy) is still in the picture...yes, and no. They decided last night to "take a 2-3 week break so she could figure stuff out." But their understanding is that in 3 weeks, it's business as usual....my what a great night that'll be on the stolen, $700 mattress set without a frame, with dirty (and clean) clothes strewn about the room.....MMMM HMMM, gotta get me some of that. Uh, sorry, got a little sarcastic there.<p>Redhat- yours is the prime reason that I'm even CONSIDERING having her move back. I wouldn't expect her to stay beyond her initial committment, but my thought is that at least it'd give her something GOOD to remember when/if Plan B comes around.<p>Resilient- I know the A needs to die naturally, would this count? If it weren't for this effort by her, then NO the A isn't over, or even close....I'm beginning to believe that it COULD stand a chance for something more/longer (and that scares the hell out of me).<p>Ok, enough for now.

Kev,
I like your journal entires a lot -- you are good, real good!
And I guess I don't have to mention the Dobson thing again! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
You are a strong dude & I for one am proud of your efforts! You make an excellant example!!
Let that tiger go, se may come back, if she doesn't, she was not yours to begin with.
My situation seems to have improved, but I'm playing it one day at a time & I too may be making tough decesions like you. So know we're with you in thought & prayer!
Peace be with you!
HH

Kev,<p>I want you to try something for me. Create a thread Polling all BS asking if they had to do over again, would they have set their WS free to allow the A to run it's course, as opposed to fighting the A by trying to keep their WS at home or by moving back in too soon (i.e., before the A met it's own natural death)<p>I KNOW how scary it is to let her go, Kev. But you have to give her her freedom to discover she wants the marriage.<p>Best,
Jo<p>p.s. I think you should do a counseling session with Steve or Jenn Harley, this is a pivotal point in your efforts.<p>[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

kevco,
I scanned alot of the replies so I hope I am not repeating them.
K, I did hang around with my wife for 3 years with her saying that she was not about to leave the OM. She said they took breaks from each other and in those times she just wanted him more. IMO you cannot start to look good until the OM starts looking tarnished. The best thing that you could do is let her go for now.
The best scenario is for you to be nice to her when she calls, show her of your progress on you, from a distance and get on with what you need to do for you. When she talks to you, don't push, don't bring up the past, etc., still plan A but show her your strength and character...
Believe me when I tell you that you will finish with much more respect from her and for yourself if you do it this way. Taking the other path will do nothing but make you look weak because she has so much control over you and it will depleat your self worth to nothing by the time it is over.
I think you would much rather have her come back to you because she found out that you were the one not him. Rather than her coming back for guilt or that "last try" still being in what she thinks is love for the OKid.
It's hard competing with romance... I would venture impossible...
Mike

Kev, Kev, Kev,
<<LONG, LOUD SIGH here>>>
It's as obvious as the NOSE on your face!!! YOU said it!!!!
She needs a place to "hang her hat" while THEY "take a 2-3 week break..." to figure stuff out?!?!<p>DON'T FALL FOR IT!!! It's NOT over for them. SHE's using HIM, and while they're "figuring stuff out" she's gonna USE YOU. NOPE. I wouldn't let that happen. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Couple of you have asked if BT (bot-toy) is still in the picture...yes, and no. They decided last night to "take a 2-3 week break so she could figure stuff out." But their understanding is that in 3 weeks, it's business as usual....</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is why answers must be so quickly forthcoming for her....she needs to know where she'll sleep for the next few weeks. <Gag> Sorry (I know you love the woman, but this is totally TAKER mode.)<p>THE ONLY thing that could work in your favor during this TRAIN WRECK would be that *if* there is absolutely NO CONTACT between them for 2-3 weeks, HE found SF *somewhere else* After all, he IS only 19 years old. 2-3 weeks is a LIFETIME to a guy that age, eh?? Especially one who's been "getting it" on a regular basis lately? <p>My .02
Lupo

Kev,
I think it may be a little to early on to completely let her go as some have suggested. She still has some very negative experiences fresh in her memory and you need to make sure those are replaced by good ones (Plan A) before you Plan B.
I think your journal entry is excellent. Try to relay it to her just as it is in there - and stick to it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Kev ~<p>I didn't let my WS move home until he was ready to actually commit whole heartedly to the marriage.<p>He started asking and vaguely talking about moving home 6 months before I was willing to let him.<p>There is just no way I was going to live with a waffler who wasn't willing to be married. And he did many times ask to come home - in fact I went for a divorce a second time, all the while he was protesting to me that he wanted our marriage and wanted to come home. I listed all my H's protests and promises to Steve Harley, and Steve simply said: "It's called appeasement, and he doesn't get it."<p>His actions and willingness to participate in our marriage were not there - even though he didn't want the consequences of a failed marriage.<p>Steve was proven right....the day after I told my H that I wanted to go back to the divorce, he went running back to OW.<p>I hear in your wife a desire to get "control" over the relationship with you. Don't play her game!<p>When my H was really ready...THEN we had a converstation about what we both needed, and negotiated the terms on which he came home.<p>There was no "I'll do as I please and maybe one day I'll think about filling your ENs if you appease me properly or the OW falls thru..."<p>I hope you stick to your guns and insist that the OM be gone permanently and that she makes a choice to make your marriage work before you let her come home.

Hi Kev,
My take on this: the kid suggested the break. To me this suggests he's starting to cool off.... looking for a way to weasel out. Doubtless it was all so exciting and glamorous, older married woman, stuff of adolescent dreams. But reality may well be poking in chilly fingers for him, especially if he's in school. And I think your W suspects it, hence all her talk about how he'll be waiting for her. At 19 years old kids fall in and out of love at the drop of a hat. And your W is practically old enough to be his mother. Not so glamorous anymore if they're living together and he's having to put up with her always knowing best and telling him what to do, supervising his homework, putting a cramp in his style. How much fun can it be for him to go out with his friends and their babe girlfriends, and he's with somebody who, however lovely she may be, is not only so much older but also a TEACHER? Hey, we all know how thrilled we'd have been to have somebody bring a teacher to the pub or the concert! Peer pressure counts for a lot.<p>I would tell her you need time to think this over. Up to now she's been very sure she has you as a default setting. If she's no longer sure of that, she's going to pressure her toyboy, and that should lead to some high-impact LBs from both of them. You've had some very good advice on telling her you love her too much to set you both up for failure.<p>One last thing: I find it interesting that your W is talking about maybe getting into fights and throwing at OB what she gave up for him. Sounds as if she's already thinking of this, at some level, as a step DOWN...

Well, I was just sitting down (for a long winter's nap- no, wait, that's a different story) to post a random thought that popped into my head, and she called.<p>The thought was: What exactly is she going to be "trying" to do?????<p>I asked her. She's talking about "trying" to see if she thinks that maybe she would some day kinda want to "try" to SAVE the M. <p>What I've been talking about (and I believe all of you as well) is trying right now to SAVE the M.<p>That being said, I read her my journal entry. Basically the NO CONTACT letter is "OUT TOTALLY." And why not, she's not committing to the M, she's committing to see if maybe sorta kinda...<p>I asked her about the time frame and her expectations. She said that she expects to know if she WANTS to try to save the M, if she WANTS to write the NO CONTACT, if all the "stuff" we have is worth it, etc.... I asked her if that wasn't maybe a bit too lofty a goal for just a couple of weeks. She then softened her stance a little saying that it's actually quite small expectatations. She's looking for inklings of those things.<p>This kind of throws a wrench into my logic. My conditions make no sense under the new light. She suggested (like I had earlier) that this might give me a chance to prove to her that I HAVE changed (great, did she HAVE to repeat the ONLY REAL reason that I can find to have her move back).<p>She gave me until dinner tomorrow to consider this difference in our definitions of "try" (I feel like freaking Bill Clinton over here). [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh, well, more thoughts?
Kev

Kev,
I'm mostly a lurker(and by the way, that is NOT my
misspelled sig, how'd THAT get in there)<p>I posted to your update thread, and I believe some of the replies above hit it totally on the head.<p>That 19 yo [censored] is a pipe dream. He'll be gone in two seconds. Now, when he's gone, will she come back to you? Will you want her to come back--being the "booby" prize? I think she is so totally selfish and as an onlooker, I'd say you should plan B. Get the hell out and let her see what she's done to herself. <p>I firmly believe when the [censored] drops her, she'll come snivelling back. Then you can decide if she's what you want. I've had a few long term relationships go this route, and when they came
crawling back, was so repulsed.<p>Once again, I don't mean to be trite, but why try to twist her arm if she is completely disinterested? My wife tells me at least a few times a week that she could never in a million years find another me. That's what YOU deserve, Kevco. Someone who feels that way about you.<p>\/ where do I edit This out? I didn't enter it!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong><p>The thought was: What exactly is she going to be "trying" to do?????<p>I asked her. She's talking about "trying" to see if she thinks that maybe she would some day kinda want to "try" to SAVE the M. <p>Kev</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Kev,
I think that the only way she should be allowed to come home is if she is coming to "TRY" to save the marriage, not to consider if she thinks she might want to try in the future. Otherwise it is a waste of time and a set up for heartbreak for you. This "trying" to see if she has inklings can be done from AFAR, she doesn't need to move home to do that. Just think how you will feel in 2 weeks when she says she doesn't feel any inklings [which she wlll] and moves back out? Is it worth it?<p>Personally, I think the only thing she truly wants to "try" to do is to end the relationship by setting false standards and when the marriage doesn't live up to her false standards she can say that she tried. That way she could tell her family that she tried. And I am sure she wants to tell her family that after all the pressure they recently put on her. This proposal to move home is NOT ABOUT a committment to a recovery at all, so any chance of recovery is doomed because it is designed to fail.

I agree with Melody. You know, Kev, you may have been drinking and maybe not paying attention to her as much as you could, but those are not deadly sins. She went and had an affair on YOU.<p>I think you are the victim here, and all that bull about "chances" that she wrote about is as arrogant as it gets. <p>I hope you find some happiness for yourself.<p>And by the way, I authored a new sig:

Kev,<p>I agree with just about everybody, but especially MelodyLane. I figured you needed yet another vote.<p>It seems to me, that when you Plan A you must also make it clear that she needs to figure this out herself. As much as you would like her to be there with you, you only want her if she wants to be there. BUT, there is an issue you need to make clear to her.<p>She has decisions to make and so do you. You would feel much better if she made decisions in the affirmative from a far not in your house. Then, the two of you can decide to work on the marriage.<p>You can only promise that you are working on yourself in the HOPES that she will give you a chance. But seeing if there is an inkling is really up to her and not you. Her inklings are too emphemral for you to deal with right now.<p>I too really liked your journal entry and I would strongly suggest you stick with what you told yourself. You can avoid LB's, you can work on yourself, you can make changes, but you cannot affect her "inklings".<p>In my more sarcastic moments I am thinking BT has finals and is throwing her out so he can study about now. <p>Kev, you may love her deeply, but you cannot change her mind and coming home for 2 weeks won't either, especially with BT still in the picture.<p>Tell her instead that you will agree to see her and date her everyday, if she wants that much contact with you. My guess as everyone else has said is just a ruse to make her look good. Even this very hokie deadline by dinner tommorow night.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>She said that she expects to know if she WANTS to try to save the M, if she WANTS to write the NO CONTACT, if all the "stuff" we have is worth it, etc.... I asked her if that wasn't maybe a bit too lofty a goal for just a couple of weeks. She then softened her stance a little saying that it's actually quite small expectatations. She's looking for inklings of those things.<p>This kind of throws a wrench into my logic. My conditions make no sense under the new light. She suggested (like I had earlier) that this might give me a chance to prove to her that I HAVE changed (great, did she HAVE to repeat the ONLY REAL reason that I can find to have her move back).<p>She gave me until dinner tomorrow to consider this difference in our definitions of "try" (I feel like freaking Bill Clinton over here). [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh, well, more thoughts?
Kev</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Kevin, I want to emphasize that she doesn't need to move in to find out *IF* she WANTS to try. And you don't have different definitions of try at all. You both know what it means. You just are both TRYING for different things. You are trying to save the marriage and she is trying to see *IF* she has "an inkling" to "try" to save the marriage. Your goals are completely different. Yours is based on a committment to your marriage and hers is not.<p>That is her STATED goal, anyway. I have my suspicions that her real goal is to use this as an occasion to end the marriage with the least amount of guilt and pressure possible. This way she can go to her mother and sister and say, "see, I tried!" Course, they won't really know what she means when she says she "tried" so they will absolve her. <p>
She doesn't EXPECT this to work and isn't going to take the steps to ensure that it does. You can read that in her remarks, especially in her refusal to end things with the OM. She also tries to condition you beforehand for the eventuality [guaranteed] that it will not work. She does not expect this to work!

Am I reading this right? <p>She wants to come back to "Try" to see if she wants to "TRY"?<p>Kev,<p>I know you want your marriage, and whether you realize this or not, your expectations of a good marriage have risen even in the short time since you've been here. <p>With that said, your wife is trying to control this situation, and in all fairness I believe she is truly sceptical that you have made permanent changes. I believe you can demonstrate those changes to her whether separated or not.<p>I think you should give yourself and her more time, Plan A her until she can fully commit and agree to what it will take to recover and rebuild. I know you worry about Boytoy, but I sincerely believe he will be on his way out. Hopefully sooner than later.<p>Jo

Just a couple of things for all. BT isn't in school, he tried it for a semester but didn't/couldn't like it (he has a LD, it's either reading or math, I forget which- though I've helped him with his math before- how freaking sick is THAT). Anyway, he's an apprentice electrician...his dad got him the position in the union. He and his dad have pretty much a hate-hate relationship, and so I see some potential for that falling through, but probably not any time soon. This, along with the fact that apparently electrical work in Omaha is slowing, and seasonal, and busy in the summer (just when WS can take vacations from school, hmmm). All that being said, I'm just not as sure as some of you that this is a passing thing. I think they could DEFINITELY last for 6 months, 9, a year, two...?<p>Melody & JL, I'm leaning heavily in the direction you're talking about....I only let her come home to "TRY" to RECONCILE. Otherwise, if she needs/wants to see more of me, we date.<p>Melody-
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have my suspicions that her real goal is to use this as an occasion to end the marriage with the least amount of guilt and pressure possible.
This way she can go to her mother and sister and say, "see, I tried!" Course, they won't really know what she means when she says she "tried" so they will absolve her. <hr></blockquote><p>EXACTAMUNDO!!!! Problem is, they DO (I voiced that concern with her father when we spoke this eve) know what her definition/goal is.<p>I'm thinking I'm going to suggest just that, unless she's "trying" to save the M, then I only want to "date" her from afar. It'd probably be even better that way anyway. She won't have to have the anxiety of being forced to sleep here, etc...<p>Kev