one day, I have no need to flame you, just suggest you mind your own business and not tell others how to help people.<p>There is nothing disrespectful about the truth, and the truth is people die all the time from the dangers of male homosexuality. Nor is there anything disrespectful about pointing out that she was decieved in her heterosexual expectations of marriage, and therefore has no marriage.....that she was used she needs to know. IMO the best way to help marsha is to encourage her to face reality and run as fast as she can, there is a much better life waiting for her. This marriage has no value at all, not every marriage does. There is nothing particularly sacred or worthwhile about a marriage license, the value of marriage is in the hearts and minds of the people. I cannot see any possible way a homosexual who knowingly decieves someone into marriage is marriage material. I am not trying to be supportive of marshas marriage, I am trying to be supportive of marshas life...... just like you I presume. She is entitled to all the views I would think, and she can pick and choose the advice she prefers.....wouldn't you agree? If YOU wish to make me the issue then you should have started another thread (and do so if you wish, I will respond). It is never disrespectful to state the truth one day..... it is disrespectful to tell others how to talk though.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by OneDay:
<strong>SnL,<p>It seems to me that Marsha came here looking for support, compassion, and some advice. SnL, how about some support and compassion? If you can't do that, then please consider not responding at all.<p>
[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: OneDay ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>huh? She came here asking for advice and that is exactly what SNL did, he gave her advice. You might not agree with his advice, and that is your prerogative, but you are not in a position to censor him or shut him up. <p>When one asks for advice, they have to be prepared for the obvious, and that is that they may get some that they don't like. Common Sense 101. This *IS* and opinion forum after all. Good grief...<p>Rather than trying to disingeniously shut him down, why not simply challenge - in a CIVIL MANNER - the views that you disagree with? That is usually how this works.<p>That would be much more preferable than ATTACKING him because you don't agree with his opinion. Can we please have some TOLERANCE and civility around here, and stop with the PC fascism?<p>[p.s. remember, tolerance is needed for OPPOSING views, not views you already approve of.]

Not to stir an already boiling pot, but Melody Lane is exactly right. The beauty of this forum is people's willingness to offer up all manner of insight and opinion to others in need. We are all walking wounded and for us to stop our our crisis for a moment and respond to a complete stranger is a gift. <p>I also have to second what zorweb said to Marsha about her end of the bargain if she is to gain anything at all from this site. Whenever someone responds to your post, you should at least acknowledge that fact. You do not have to agree with everything that is said - chances are you won't. <p>As far as your situation. It seems grave. You have certainly been handed a load of crap to deal with and I am sure you have many more questions than answers. If you could respond to some of what has been asked here, maybe we could continue this cyber conversation with you. For example, what do you mean when you say your "husband wants to try and work this out"? Is is willing to cease the affair? Is he willing to participate in INTENSIVE COUNSELING? Is he willing to be honest with you about the 15 years you have spent thinking you had a marriage?<p>Are you willing to stick around and see if this can be "worked out"? <p>I, too, do not believe that being gay, or bi-sexual or attracted to the same sex is a choice. I think people can suppress their attraction and live heterosexually even if they are gay - I am not saying I think they should, but some have been successful at this. Most have not. <p>I once asked a gay friend "why are you gay?" and the answer was very telling. She said, "why are you straight?" I of course, cannot answer that, I just am. I am not straight because biblically it is the right thing to do. I am not straight because it is more acceptable in society. I am not straight because my parents would be devastated if I wasn't. I AM JUST STRAIGT. I cannot be otherwise. Why should I believe it is any different for homosexuals?

Marsha,
I am not personally involved in the pain you are currently feeling. But I want to extend my empathy for you on this, as I am sure it is very difficult to deal with. But as a non-involved observer I am hopeful I might add some objectivity from my perspective at least, in this potentially explosive discussion.<p>I am very interested in topics involving sex &#8211; as well as topics about relationships & marriage enrichment. I like to think that I am open-minded & somewhat liberal regarding other people & their own sexual orientation. I do not like the idea that people can be so judgmental about another person for whatever reason. I would also like to point out (as you no doubt know), that I understand that lots of people, for whatever reason, are not nearly so tolerant of BI sexual guys as they are of gals. This is the perverbial(unfair perhaps, but real) &#8220;double standard,&#8221; we all tend to internalize. I will also state that although I try to be open-minded, I probably have some of that &#8220;Homo&#8211;Phobia&#8221; (it sounds discusting & narrow minded, I know!) thing many times mentioned about us guys.
Although I am a sinful person in many regards & I try hard to do the right thing, but sometimes fail, I consider myself a Christian & I am not BIBLICAL SCHOLAR,but I am somewhat familiar with the Bible. The issue of being gay is of course a hot debate in Christian circles. I for one do not believe that if a person has a sexual preference for the same sex, that this in & of itself does not disqualify that person from entering the kingdom of God.<p>With all that background & with your initial post in that you seemed to be totally put off of with the possibility of living with a BS guy, I did not have the negative reaction to SNL's post that you had. I don&#8217;t know for sure, but I got the impression that the primary basis for SNL's post was that if a person is gay, it is not so much of a personal preference or choice as much as it is a matter of different brain cells or chemical make up & that the person has this orientation, not because of a lustful choices, but of a combination of things they were born with and they have no real control or choice about this &#8211; I don&#8217;t have long list of research on the topic, but from what I have read, there seems to be some scientific research to support this matter. <p>IMO, SNL I believe, was being very forceful perhaps, but wanted to be very convincing, that if you don&#8217;t want to live with a BI, you better come to the realization that no matter what steps you take, you are not going to change his sexual orientation. I don&#8217;t believe he was being judgmental as such that this person is going to burn in hell because he is gay. I did not get that sense at least. Now maybe it is not as black & white as that and you are considering alternatives, and SNL does not need anyone to defend him, but I wanted to give you my perspective as a casual observer. <p>Although the specifics of your situation are different than mine,(it does seem very sexual, which again, could be a cultural bias!) I am continually informed by lots of people here, that as much as I would like to at times, ultimately I cannot control what my S thinks and/or does &#8211; if they (WS&#8217;s) want to fool around, they will find a way, no matter what kind of controls we try to put in place. Unfortunately, the gay guy thing does in fact carry with it certain society, cultural kinds of &#8220;Bias'.&#8221; We understand intellectually that this is not fair, but for whatever reasons, we are humans & sometimes have certain feelings & sometimes it is very difficult for us to ignore those feelings, which sometimes dictates our opinions &#8211; [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]
I want to congratulate you for having the courage to speak up about your situation! I believe it is only through getting this off your chest that you will begin to heal. I know it has helped me to post & vent here & you will get varying opinions, but as you know, you ultimately have to decide what is best for you. I believe everyone here understands that. I also hope & prayer for you that you find truth for you & how you are to best handle your situation as best you can, according to your heart & intellect &#8211; there is never just one way to do all this.<p>Peace be with you,
HH<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

I have never been married, but for what it's worth I was in this exact situation several years ago. I had a 4 year relationship with a men. One year in I discovered that he was bi-sexual. I was floored! To say the least.<p>We were able to stick it out for a while. Ultimately he decided that he was in love with the OM [and they are still together 11 years later].<p>All I will say is get counseling and God Bless.

MelodyLane:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>Rather than trying to disingeniously shut him down, why not simply challenge - in a CIVIL MANNER - the views that you disagree with? That is usually how this works.<p>That would be much more preferable than ATTACKING him because you don't agree with his opinion. Can we please have some TOLERANCE and civility around here, and stop with the PC fascism?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I was not being disingenious. I was being honest and genuine with my views. I simply don't think that challenging such fundamental opinions as whether homosexuality is depraved or using such loaded languange is helpful to someone in Marsha's situation.<p>I was not attacking SnL, I was commenting on his response being less than supportive and compassionate. I certainly did not mean that he needs to support the continuation of the M, but rather support Marsha as she seems to be feeling now. She sounds devastated, as I think anyone of us would feel. And I sincerely believe that we need to be compassionate with the advice we are giving.<p>If I had wanted to debate the substance of SnL's comments, I would have, but I don't think Marsha's thread is the right place to do that nor do I have a particular desire to debate 'whether homosexuality is depraved'.<p>I gather "stop with the PC fascism" is considered civil and tolerant in your books...<p>
Wiffle,<p>I agree with what you said: <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The beauty of this forum is people's willingness to offer up all manner of insight and opinion to others in need. We are all walking wounded and for us to stop our our crisis for a moment and respond to a complete stranger is a gift.<hr></blockquote><p>My point was that when offering our gift (our opinion), we do it with compassion and in a supportive manner. When one first finds this discussion board, one is usually in a time of extreme crisis. Each and everyone of us has been there, and some of us are still there, either chronically or from time to time. By all means, offer the gift of our time, but what is wrong with tempering it with compassion? The opinion may well be the same, but should a gift not be presented as a gift, with care taken in its choice and presentation?<p>This forum is wonderful because it is full of caring and giving people. It is also full of hurt and wounded people, as you have pointed out. And I think it is incumbent on each of us to be compassionate with our message, whatever that message might be. That is only my personal opinion, unpopular as it might be.<p>
HH,<p>You have stated your sense of SnL's comments as 'a casual observer'. Marsha, who started this thread, was clearly offended by the comments. She told us she was sad and depressed, she asked SnL not to throw his opinions at her, she was offended. Yet, SnL pressed the point.<p>IMHO, that was shoving and that was not compassionate. My request of SnL was to give advice with compassion and support, and if that could not be done, then to consider not responding at all.<p>
To all three of you and SnL,<p>I apologize for raising everyone's ire.<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: OneDay ]</p>

Oh, baloney! Let's concentrate on Marsha here--not sniping each other!<p>Marsha,<p>I personally feel that the 'who' of the situation is less important than the 'what'---and I'm sure you are stunned but really an affair is an affair--would it be any different if it were a woman? It's still cheating, isnt' it? And I think the health concerns are valid in either situation as well.<p>I don't think it's more important that it was a man than the fact the your h has some needs that he needs fulfilled. I suggest counseling---for both of you. I know this is a weird situation and I'm sure there are some really turbulent emotions roiling around. <p>Try the ENQuiz and see what you can do. I think you should 'get over' (dumb words, I know but it's the best I can come up with) your shock and concentrate on trying to rebuild your M. If he is willing. <p>As has been said before, do not have an affair. What would that accomplish? More damage to an already fragile marriage. And two wrongs never do make a right. <p>You have my prayers. We're here for you. Come talk to us.

Marsha...<p>I feel sorry for what you are going through. I am a WS involved in a same sex affair. I do care about my wife and family and am struggling with my feelings for them versus my other relationship as well as my sexuality. I am sure that your H is doign quite the same.<p>Be patient, work with him. Try to find a way that you two can live in harmony. That is what I am working on.<p>Don't listen to those who classify homosexuality as a despicable crime against nature.<p>BW<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: BeenWishin ]</p>

Marsha,<p>First of all, you are going to get a lot of advice and opinions on this board. Take it all with a grain of salt. Every situation is different and no one here but you knows the complete story as it effects you.<p>Secondly, none of us here are trained professionals. We are all her because infidelity has entered our lives, either as a BS or WS. Avoid making any snap decisions at this time. Do yourself a favor and get some counseling. I'm in a very similiar situation as you and have been talking with Steve Harley for nearly a year now. Although my basic relationship with my wife has not changed, I feel much better about myself and still have hope that we can reconcile.<p>I'm going to try and give you the short version of my story. My wife informed me over a year ago that she was in love with her best friend and immediate supervisor at work, who also happened to be a woman. They had it all worked out at the time. My wife was going to find a postion elsewhere so as to not raise suspicions at work. The two of them were going to then move in together and take our two daughters to live with them. Everything was my fault. I had horribly mistreated her for several years by basically ignoring her. She had found someone else that made her happy and she was leaving me. The OW's husband received basically the same story. <p>I was devasted on two accounts. One that she had an affair and also because of the homosexuality. I know exactly where you are at on the self esteem level.<p>When I confonted her on being a lesbian, she said she wasn't. She said that she just that of this OP as "another person and her sex didn't matter".
During the next few months, I had to endure watching her go out once or twice a week, knowing full well who she was going to be with. But I held on.<p>Enter MB and Steve Harley. Steve assured me that this was not my fault alone. The breakdown of our marriage was a result of both of us not meeting each other's emotional needs. My part in this had been used as a reason to justify my wife's affair. Sure, I needed major improvement on the way I relate to my wife. But this in no way justifies the choice my wife made.<p>I counseled with Steve a couple of times and then actually got my wife to spend some time with him. He seems to believe that this is a classic affair, regardless of the homosexuality or bisexuality involved. He explained to me (and I know I am going to hear it for this) that many of us have latent homosexual tendencies but naturally surpress them. In other words, it is possible for someone who is straight, under the right emotional conditions to be attracted to a member of the same sex. Call that bisexual if you want. Steve could explain it better than I can. He has had this happen in past cases and they have resulted in full reconciliation.<p>Again, I am not an expert. But I feel, after a year in Plan A, that I have a future with my wife. None of the aforementioned plans that she and this OW had made have taken place. They still work together. I had made an ill-fated attempt at Plan B about five months ago when my wife moved into her own place that lasted one day, but when that occurred I also informed my daughters and family (at Steve's direction) about the affair. I found I wasn't ready yet for Plan B by my wife's reaction. I still had a lot of Plan Aing to do and since that time we have grown closer. My kids can't stand the OP. Even though my wife is still seeing the OW(ugh!), I think she will slowly see that there is no future in what she wanted. Like any other addiction, it is going to take time for this to get resolved. I have the patience, but will probably be going into Plan B sometime after the holidays.<p>Like I said, don't do anything rash. Seek counseling, even if it isn't with Steve Harley. Come here often. It helps...<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Always Hopeful ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by diddallas:
<strong>Oh, baloney! Let's concentrate on Marsha here--not sniping each other!<p></strong><hr></blockquote>, <p>Here, here -- I don't think I would have said, "Oh, Baloney!" [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] But, DidDallas has the point, we all want to offer something to help MARSHA!<p>OneDay, sometimes I scan these too quickly & I was writing my response & had submitted it before even reading the second page, (dosen't change my take, it was just more input than I was considering in my reply). But thanks for your input! I don't know if an apology was necessary, but thanks for the gesture of KINDNESS.<p>Marsha,
Hope we have not scared you away -- you can help us be better people in learnig to be more emphathetic to other's situation -- I believe we all are trying hard to be sensative to your needs & are hoping & praying for you!
Peace to all,
HH

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by diddallas:
<strong>Oh, baloney! Let's concentrate on Marsha here--not sniping each other!<p></strong><hr></blockquote>, <p>Here, here -- I don't think I would have said, "Oh, Baloney!" [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] But, DidDallas has the point, we all want to offer something to help MARSHA!<p>OneDay, sometimes I scan these too quickly & I was writing my response & had submitted it before even reading the second page, (dosen't change my take, it was just more input than I was considering in my reply). But thanks for your input! I don't know if an apology was necessary, but thanks for the gesture of KINDNESS.<p>Marsha,
Hope we have not scared you away -- you can help us be better people in learnig to be more emphathetic to other's situation -- I believe we all are trying hard to be sensative to your needs & are hoping & praying for you!
Peace to all,
HH

Hi Marsha,<p>I am so sorry for what you are going thru and feeling. It must feel so unbelievable. My prayers are with you.<p>I just read BeenWishin's thread and I see he has posted to you.<p>I think it could help both of you (BeenWishin and Marsha) to share what you're going thru. If you can see thru your pain, perhaps sharing will give you each a window into what your spouses's are feeling.<p>Just a suggestion.<p>God Bless.
Jo<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
She should immediately divorce him, surround herself with supportive friends and family, and find someone who is not a lieing, depraved user.[/QB]<hr></blockquote><p>I thought this was a forum to rebuild marriages. This person sounds more like a fire and brimstone preacher.

Just to throw in my 2 cents. I do not believe that SnL's comments were meant to attack a gay lifestyle, but the fact that the LIE was depraved. That hiding something so important and so life altering is a depraved act.<p>It is also my opinion that the specail circumstances will make recovery that much more difficult. It will take alot of commitment on both parts, with a tremondous amount of work from Marsha's H to make this M work. Not that I think it is impossible. I wish you both the best of luck and hope that whatever outcome for you, it is what is best for you both in the long run.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by OneDay:
[][I was not being disingenious. I was being honest and genuine with my views. I simply don't think that challenging such fundamental opinions as whether homosexuality is depraved or using such loaded languange is helpful to someone in Marsha's situation.<hr></blockquote><p>Again, that is *YOUR* opinion and you have no right to censor or shut down others who don't agree with you. It is disingenious to try to SHUT UP opposing views rather than discuss or debate them honestly and openly. Shutting people down is always a disingenuious and lazy way to silence opposing views when you can't do so with the facts.<p>Further, SNL clarified what he meant by "depraved" and it was nothing close to your description. If you reread his posts you will see that you misunderstood him. Not that this matters, he has a right to his opinion just like you do. Just as you have a right to use facts, evidence and reason to oppose him.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I gather "stop with the PC fascism" is considered civil and tolerant in your books...<hr></blockquote><p>Of course. Tolerance is needed for OPPOSING views, remember? And I do consider it very civil and appropriate to point out such behavior when it is TRUE.<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by needing:
[QB]Just to throw in my 2 cents. I do not believe that SnL's comments were meant to attack a gay lifestyle, but the fact that the LIE was depraved. That hiding something so important and so life altering is a depraved act.<p>QB]<hr></blockquote><p>You are exactly right, needing. Not that he needs defending, but the source of the flames on this thread are due to a careless reading and the subsequent misinterpretation of his posts. A whole lotta PC knee jerkin' going on! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Marsha,
I just read your thread and the replies. MOST of them were worth reading. I for one think that ONE of the repliers made some awfully large ASSumptions. You didn't give us a history, unless I missed it, and to ASSume that you were tricked into a marriage with a bisexual is absurd. A lot of people out there don't realize that it can take an INDIVIDUAL years to understand about one's OWN sexuality. Let alone that of a couple. I agree with HbH, that you should try to seperate the two issues. I can see that at a time like this that may see overwhelming. But you just found out, give yourself time to adjust to the A first, IMO, then talk about his bisexuality. Please do yourself one favor, don't ASSume that because he had an A with a man, your marriage is broken.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BeenWishin:
[QB]<p>I thought this was a forum to rebuild marriages. QB]<hr></blockquote><p>
BeenWishin,<p>I thought the same thing. I came here and was told to immediately divorce my H. So much for rebuilding marriages! I wonder if Dr. Harley would tell me to divorce my H? Maybe I should call him. <p>I didn't realize my initial post would stir up such a commotion.<p>Marsha

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Resilient:
[QB]<p>I think it could help both of you (BeenWishin and Marsha) to share what you're going thru. If you can see thru your pain, perhaps sharing will give you each a window into what your spouses's are feeling.<p>Just a suggestion.<p>Resilient,<p>I think that is a great suggestion. <p>BeenWishin, I hope you can help me understand this mess. I need some help! I hope I can help you also. I would be interested in hearing how your wife feels about your affair. <p>Let's find a way to chat. My H said something to me today and I don't know if it was a coincidence or a 'sign.' Some things are just too weird!!! <p>Marsha

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Marsha59:
<strong>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Resilient:
[QB]<p>I think it could help both of you (BeenWishin and Marsha) to share what you're going thru. If you can see thru your pain, perhaps sharing will give you each a window into what your spouses's are feeling.<p>Just a suggestion.<p>Resilient,<p>I think that is a great suggestion. <p>BeenWishin, I hope you can help me understand this mess. I need some help! I hope I can help you also. I would be interested in hearing how your wife feels about your affair. <p>Let's find a way to chat. My H said something to me today and I don't know if it was a coincidence or a 'sign.' Some things are just too weird!!! <p>Marsha</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I wish I had the answers to this mess myself. All I know right now is that my feelings for the OP have a strong hold on me and I can't let go.<p>So I guess by Snl's view, I am depraved, a blight on society and not worthy of anything.<p>I wonder if SnL's homophobic statements are hiding a deep secret. Anyone see the movie "American Beauty"?<p>BW<p>[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: BeenWishin ]<p>[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: BeenWishin ]</p>