I see all of your opinions here and I understand that if this forum is truly giving you hope and benefit to restoring your marriages, then I guess it does have value. In fact, I thought afterwards that those who used this forum successfully are probably no longer here, applying the MB principles and living happier marriages.<p>It still seems to me, though, that by spending the extended amount of time here, you are taking away from working on your marriages. Also, in so many of these topics, many of you still seem to reference your spouses as though they were the enemy. Is that rebuilding a marriage?<p>For clarification of one of the responses, please note that I was not criticizing the MB principles. I can understand how the principles will work if both spouses are willing to apply them. I question the value of this forum, however, as a tool for the recovery of very troubled marriages.<p>I see in here a lot of making fun of the WS, the OP and their issues. I see evidence of intolerance by people who believe their values are the "right" ones.<p>No, my marriage is not good. It seems to be getting worse, not better. <p>I still do not believe that this forum will be of help to me. I still think that many of you are not resolving your marital conflicts by being here.<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Not Doing too Well ]</p>

Dear NDTW:<p>I agree. There is a lot of "bad" stuff here.<p>However, if you're willing to search, you'll likely come across genuine people who are willing to open their hearts and souls to help you.<p>If you feel that you are better able to "repair" yourself through reading, counseling, etc., then perhaps this forum will NOT be a good tool for you to utilize.<p>As always, best of luck to you and your family on your journey to PEACE and HAPPINESS.<p>Love, ~Marie

NTDW,<p>Thanks for your feedback. I cannot speak for everyone here, of course. But having one's spouse in an EMR and/or dealing with the issues post-EMR is very difficult to speak about with other people who have not been through it. Many of us - and this includes myself - do not wish to involve family members and friends in our personal lives for a number of reasons. Keeping the matter private shows respect for the wayward spouse. It also keeps those who know and love us from going crazy having to listen to our problems! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Having a virtual forum to "vent" (such as MB and other board) can be a great catharsis, and allows us to say what we want to say and have other people (in a similar situation) understand us - and our anger. So yes, I can see why it would seem as though we are viewing our spouses as "the enemy." Quite frankly, some of them are acting like the enemy - some of the stories you read here are not very pretty and involve the wayward spouse behaving very vindictively toward the innocent party. But I also don't fell that applies to everyone on MB. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I hope that you are able to find peace. Whatever happens, remember that while Rome wasn't built in a day - however Rome did burn down pretty quickly. It takes a lot more effort to rebuild than it does to destroy. It's up to you what and how you choose to rebuild your life. No one here can decide that for you. It has to be your choice alone.<p>Peace,<p>belld

<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: BeenWishin ]</p>

Perhaps this forum works for many of you. I don't see it working for me.<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Not Doing too Well ]</p>

Ndtw, <p>You have a valid point. However recovery does take both spouses. When one may or may not be applying any valuable principes (instead may be lying, cheating, stealing, etc.) then the recovery process can still happen but maybe not for the marriage but for the individual. That is the benefit of being here even if our marriages do not succeed. <p>As to our time being here instead of with out families, that is why we are here, there is no family time. When my H came home, I respected his time and did not post here while we were together, for the times I did I asked his approval and if he showed signs of being uncomfortable, I did not post. <p>I do spend time here. Yet I am still able to keep up with my full time and OT work schedule, take care of my family, home responsibilities and even work on H's business paperwork, bills and even did some of his runs. <p>Many of the BS do these things. While the WS is out there playing around. Now I ask, does the
BS have any right to say anything? Well if someone at work put all this on you and then took off and played, got paid while you were slaving away, what would you say? <p>My does know some of the info I post, he has even commented that he knows he is not being written in the best of light. Why? Because he is in the dark. I assured him that when he comes clean his reputation can be restored, but why make him look clean when he is wallowing in the mud? Nope, that time has past, he is in the A and there is no hiding it. <p>Casting blame on others, having tirades, being a neglectful parent and mate are just some of the 'benefits' of an A. I can do without those 'benefits'. <p>I believe the term is cakeman......that is what many of the WS' like to do. Including my H. <p>Most of the time, the BS is out here venting. For many there is no other place. Are we having a laugh at the WS' expense? Sometimes and other times at our own expense. As long as there is learning and recovery here, it is helpful. My stories were hilarious and sad, if it helped anyone else avoid what I have gone through then I am not sorry for sharing it. <p>Maybe you need to spend sometime on the BS side to know the pain, hurt, frustration and sheer anguish that the A puts us in. Not by choice either. <p>L.

I still think you should look up posts by [H]...I think you would be struck by how similar your thought process are...<p>He talked about saying and doing EXACTLY the same things you are.<p>What you are going through is not new or even unusual...<p>My last suggestion for you is to get a couple of books...like Diane Medved's The Case Against Divorce or Lana Stahali's How to Affair-Proof Your Marriage and see what I mean. Most WSs feel their marriage is over...they don't have any feelings for BS...their new life will be so much better...however MOST do not leave their spouse and of those that do MANY do not marry their affair partner and of those that do the divorce rate is over 60%....<p>The new life you create will not be problem-less...it will have both the 'old' ones and 'new' ones...<p>This forum is probably NOT for you...I guess I'm left wondering why you HAD to bash us...be judgmental...and tell us so...

Yep - I'll come forward and say I'm one of the BSs who denigrate WSs - at least the unreformed ones - as alien abductees, temporarily insane, and aggressively delusional.<p>But I make no apologies for it.<p>Would you rather I describe defensive WSs as bad people?<p>Oh, and my OP? Yep, had a dream recently in which my W came to me in tears and described how her OM had been fired from his job for taking someone (her) other than his wife on company paid business trips. My response: "It couldn't happen to a more deserving guy."<p>So, let ME play the role of everything that's bad here. NDtW, vent on ME, PLEASE.... right after you read my signature line.<p>Oh yea - this post illustrates part of the value of the forum to me - I get to vent my frustration....<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

NDtW<p>Well, at first I was not going to reply to this thread. After all, after being told that I have no value why would I waste my time? However, the more I reflect on your opinion I feel that I need to for the sake of anyone new to MB who is reading this thread. <p>Your original post on this thread paints everyone here with one broad brush. By doing this you insult and turn off most people. We are a diverse group of individuals who mostly act independently. If you have a bone to pick with someone, do it with that person directly.<p>I can only assume that I am one of the people whose opinions you find useless because almost all of the parameters you pointed out apply to me. Let’s see:<p>--- I answered your posts more then once. (Shame on me for trying to help.)<p>--- I have made 1728 posts here. Generally I spend less then one hour a day on this site. There are days when I don’t come here at all. When I first came here I was falling apart because of the discovery of my H’s affairs. I desperately needed support and my H was out of town. He travels about 1/3 to ½ of the time. So I was alone, in desperate need of support, and had no one to talk to. I knew from experience that I did no want to share with friends or our families that my new H was cheating from day one of our engagement. So this site is my safe haven. Eventually my H joined me in posting here. He’s a prolific writer so he took to this forum like a duck to water. He, SeenTheLight, has a lot of posts too. Many times we read the posts here together, discuss them and then one of us replies. If our opinions differ, or we both want to make different points, we both reply. In many ways MB has been a joint study for us.<p>My involvement on MB does not take away from working on my marriage, my children or my job. We spend the MB requisite 15 hours a week in one-on-one dedicated time together. Even when my H is traveling we make a point of spending two hours a day together on the phone and/or in chat. When my H is not traveling we spend a lot more time together. It is only after our work is done, our personal time has been fulfilled, our children are cared for that either of us has time for personal interests like reading/posting here. How much time a week do you and your wife spend together one-on-one?<p>If you ever get the MB principles down, you will find that they take no extra time at all to live by. You see it’s like learning to waltz, once you have the steps down and can hum the music, you can dance to your hart’s content with nary a thought. It’s just an easy one, two three; one, two three…….<p>--- I’m one of the “people” you are talking about whose opinions and help are useless because I am divorced and have had less then stellar marriages. Actually I have been divorced twice. My current marriage is my third one and I hope last one. I have had two failed marriages….. Guess it was my fault that my first husband suffered an inter-cranial aneurysm and had brain surgery that caused him brain damage, became a drug addict in trying to live a normal life afterwards, and tried to kill me. Was it also my fault when he committed suicide after our divorce because he could no longer live with the “new” him? Probably was by your standards. …. It must also be my fault that my second husband just needed some patsy to put him through medical school and residency. It was my fault that he lied, cheated, abused, and stole from me. Shame on me for loving him and standing behind him all the way. Shame on me that he left me once he did not need my support any more. And then it must also be my fault that my current husband decided to act totally out of character and have a string of affairs while we were engaged and in the first 9 months of our marriage. I am stunned to find out, from your post, that I have learned nothing of value from these experiences. Here all this time I thought I’d learned a lot from being bashed around quite a bit by life. Thought I’d learned to turn the other cheek, to be patient and loving, and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. etc. Since I now find out that my opinion will never count for anything I’ll crawl under a rock and die. What else could I possibly do in a world that has no room for growth and forgiveness? Oh, I forgot, that was your world, not mine. In my world people learn more from their mistakes and traumas then they do from “perfect” situations, people grow emotionally if they are introspective and work at it, and forgiveness is always there for those who repent and pay the price for their misdeeds.<p>---I thought my marriage was in a very strong recovery. By your assessment my H and I are mistaken that we now live our lives daily by the MB principles. We are also mistaken that we now have a wonderful, passionate, deep, loving marriage. Guess I’d better rush home and tell him to wipe that smile off his face because we are really miserable and don’t follow MB. We did not know this until you so graciously pointed it out to us. But wait a minute, why should I pay any attention to your advice and opinions? You have a failing marriage. You had an affair. By your own assessment your opinion and advice will never again be worth one cent. Ok, I’ll ignore you.<p>OK, sarcastic humor aside. Yes this forum has given many great hope and benefit. It has also helped many of us during the lowest hours of our lives when no one would listen to us express our pain. These wonderful people here taught me how to put the pain aside and move on. They helped we wade through the mess of my previous and current marriages so that I could learn what there was to learn, change what I could, and move my life to a much happier place. If this forum is not for you, that’s ok. Just please do not bash those of us who find this a helpful place and who want to return what others gave us.<p>You are right that most of the people who are in a good recovery are no longer here. They have moved on. There are thousands of people who have been helped by this forum and Dr. Harley’s material and marriage coaching. There are basically two types of people here right now. Those, like myself, whose marriages are in a good, strong recovery. There are few of us who stay to welcome the new comers and return the help we received. Then there are the people like you, who are struggling with the damage neglect and affairs have dealt to their marriages. You will find some of the toughest cases here… The easy cases resolve themselves quickly and the people move on. Those people who have been struggling with the hardest cases sometimes have the greatest insight. That is part of the silver lining that comes with the cloud of any type of adversary. It has been amazing to watch people who are emotionally brutalized by their spouses shed their hurt and anger over time and emerge better people, content with themselves. There are OPs and WSs who have also struggled with the quagmire of their marriages and pull them out of the great abyss. Their marriages may or may not survive. But they will and they are better people for the work they have done. So it’s a win/win situation.<p>It is true that many people here speak of their spouses as their enemy or in an unfavorable manner. I believe that there are two sources of that. One is that society tends to encourage that.. think of all the marriage jokes. Some of them are very cruel. I learned a long time ago that loyalty to one’s spouse is of utmost importance. That includes talking about them respectfully in even the worst of circumstances. But lets face it, it’s a little hard for people to not feel attacked and on the defensive when their spouse is off cheating on them. One of the things many people here try to do is to change the way the BS and/or WS think about their spouse. It does not happen over night. <p>This board is often used to dump anger, hurt and frustrations. It is safer to do that here then with spouse, friends and family members. Once that is out of the system, a person can look at how to better handle the situation. But the gut feeling must be dealt with and out of the way first. If you stick around here for a longer time, you will realize that it’s pretty easy to tell when a person is just dumping emotions.<p>One of the things that separates humans for the other animals in the jungle is that we can stop our instinctive reaction to things, evaluate our feelings, and then cognitively decide on actions and change our feelings. That is what people are doing here. It does not always look pretty when we are in the process of doing this. Is this part of the process of rebuilding a marriage? You’d better believe it is. Why? Because there is no excuse for a spouse to love bust. We all have to learn to be in control of our feelings and actions/reactions. This is a learning ground.<p>RE: I question the value of this forum, however, as a tool for the recovery of very troubled marriages.<p>I would question the value of any forum for very troubled marriages. In my book a very troubled marriage is one where neither or only one spouse is willing to work on the marriage. No one here professes that this forum is the right and only source of help that people in a very troubled marriage should use. This site can only augment the help a couple should be getting from a professional. Perhaps you are expecting too much from this forum. We are all just people like you, seeking and giving help.<p>RE: I see in here a lot of making fun of the WS, the OP and their issues. <p>Yes you will see a lot of BS’s here make fun of WS and OP. You will also see a lot of former WSs and former Ops making fun of them too. Humor is a way to get anger out. Many of the WSs see the ‘humor’ in their own actions after the fact. They cannot believe what they did and said during their affair. What I find funny is that generally the WS and OP seem to think it is ok to lie about, bash and hurt the BS. But ain’t it terrible when the BS expresses the pain and frustration of what has been unfairly shoved down their throats?<p>Usually the WS has no empathy for the pain the BS is going through. This is often the only place the BS can get daily support. So they say some things that are not kind…. They need support and a place to get all out too. The BS does not have on OP to lean on. Tell me, why is it ok for the WS and OP to trash the entire life of the BS. Why is it ok for them to badmouth the BS… she/he is not a good spouse, not loving, yada yada yada. But it’s not ok for the BS to say one thing that is not full of love and understanding for the very people who are tearing their life apart? As for saying bad things about the OP.. .why would the BS say anything else? The OP is purposely trying to destroy the BS’s life for their own gain. An OP CHOOSES the pain they experience. It is not the BS’s job to help them in any way. What good would you have to say of them? That is how a BS sees an OP. I happen to agree with that assessment. Why would I every say anything good about a person who was purposely seeking to harm me? Why? Can you explain that one?<p>Would you have anything good to say about someone who was stealing your peace of mind? Think of the OP and WS as thieves breaking into your home at night to steal every thing you have worked so hard for. Now find out that one of those thieves is your best friend, the person you loved and trusted the most. That is only the tip of the ice burg of what it feels like to be betrayed.<p>Yes, you will find that people here share a strong bond of values. This is a Marriage Building web site. The people here believe that marriage vows are taken for life and should not be taken lightly. For the most part the BS’s, WS’s and OP’s here also believe that adultery is wrong under any circumstances. But we also believe in forgiveness. Much of what we told you about failures of affairs, divorces, etc is backed up by statistical data. We do not make this stuff up. Dr. Harley created this web site for people who have this set of values. If you are looking for a web site where people value affairs, then this is not your web site. It is our purgative to have our own values and to stand by them. I don’t understand why our values should offend you.<p>There is an issue of your OW coming here and stalking you. It could cause your marriage great harm. I get the feeling that you have been upset with people’s response to your OW posting here. It is too bad you did not see her posts. I have never seen the moderator delete a person’s posts on this forum. That was a first to my knowledge and we’ve seen all sorts of stuff here. So that tells you how out of hand she was. I can understand that you have feeling for her and want to stick up for her. You will find that we do not have a lot of sympathy for that here either. <p>You say that your marriage is not going well, that the MB principles are not helping you much. Perhaps you can make an appointment with Dr. Harley. My understanding is that he does awesome marriage coaching. You probably do need much more help then we can give here. To augment any counseling you do get, perhaps you can tell us what is going wrong and perhaps we can help you and your wife find your way. MB only works if you walk the talk. Are you spending over 15 hours together one-on-one right now? If not you need to. Do you and she talk about your marital issues all the time? If so you will need to stop that. At this point you will need to drop all of the issues and just have fun together. You and your wife need to reconnect before your marriage can get any better.<p>You say that you do not see that this forum has helped you at all. Well, I can see why. You have spent most of your time here telling us what is wrong with the forum and why it does not help you. Looks to me like you don’t want it to help. That you just want your marriage to be over so you can go to your OW. If that’s the case then I can assure you that your marriage will fail. But do not blame us for it. Put the blame where it belongs. Squarely on the shoulders of the person/people who will not do the work. Do you remember the little engine that could? You know that you can do anything you put your mind to. And you also know that you will fail at anything you do not put your mind to. It’s your choice.
You are entitled to your opinion. Most of us here would not agree with that assessment. What, you think we are here lying? I see your attacking us as a way to discredit the speaker so that you can say that MB does not work and your marriage cannot be saved. Sorry, MB works for those who use it. It never works for those who do not use it. Discrediting and shifting blame is a technique my pre-teens use all the time. I hope they grow out of it well before becoming adults.<p>I truly hope you and your wife stay here. I hope we can be of help to you both. I will not wish you luck as marriage does not take luck. It takes hard work and dedication. So I’ll pray that you and your wife are given the strength it takes to find your way back to each other. <p>Z<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>