Ok, I am at my whits end. I went away this weekend to see a friend in another state. It was a present from my H. I had been wanting to go see her and he bought a ticket for me. I had a good time. I found out yesturday that some woman watched my children and my H didn't tell me. He also had a friend fly in for the weekend too. when I asked where his friend slept he said on the couch, I asked why he didn't sleep in the extra bed upstairs he said he just fell asleep on the couch. Come to find out the reason was that this other woman who baby sat my children was sleeping there. I don't know what to do now, I guess he couldn't find anyone to watch the kids and he was going to a party w/his friend. This women I don't know, was referred by some other women he used to work with. First of all I don't have strangers babysit my kids never had anyone other that grandmas or grandpas. And the fact that I had to find out by my 9 year old daughter???? He cannot give me any excuses why he didn't tell me. He said he didn't know I wanted total little details about his weekend. Umm...... he told me all about this party he went to and what people were wearing and how they talked and They were from Germany but for some strange reason, he forgot to tell me some strang woman babysat my kids and spent the night in my house???? What do I do???? I just want to curl up and die!!!He still doesn't understand that his lieing is the problem and I cannot trust him. <p>HELP ME!!!!! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

wow! I think you might be overreacting here...I understand completely about being very careful who watches your kids, but sometimes you have to trust your H to handle the situation.<p>Now, I don't know the rest of the story but I am married to a former (?) habitual liar who lied to avoid confrontation. It took me 15 months and a separation to make him see that it was destroying our marriage. I'm NOT advocating that course of action. What I'm saying is that I understand how frustrated and betrayed you feel. Some people just don't understand that NOT telling the truth is the same as TELLING a lie. I had to use a graphic example to drive the point home with my hubby. I asked if I stayed out all night and came home and he asked where I was, would it be okay to say I fell asleep in the car after leaving a club and didn't wake up til morning? He said yes. But what if I didn't mention the part about giving bj's to 5 guys BEFORE I fell asleep, would that be a lie??? Well, yeah, was his answer. I had to insist that H went to counseling to find out why he felt the need to lie all the time. Maybe yours will go?<p>I know you are upset but I do think if you calmly explain to your H WHY you are so upset, it will help. The kids are fine, so no real harm done--just let him know that in future, you would like to know beforehand who's watching the kids.<p>btw--just think how mad I was when I found out my XH left my 6 month old daughter at home alone one day while he ran the boys to school! And he got mad at my friend who told on him because she picked him up when she saw him stranded with a flat tire on the way back!!! And my baby was still alone. Some people's heads are just hat racks!

No you don't know my history, and there is more to this story, this is been going on for about 2 years, I have been putting up w/him. Let me give you a time line, then you can tell me if I am overreacting.<p>Sep 99-oct 99---H working lots of hours, going out on business meeting drinking during the week says it is business related. Didn't think anything of it.
Nov 7-99----H said he had a business meeting w/vp of company and that they were going out to dinner accross the street from office he would be home at 8:00pm. 930 [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] m no word from H, wouldn't answer cell phone, called pager entered page wouldn't respond, 11:00pm his friend called said is your H in trouble and that they were on their way home???? H didn't get home until 2:00am drunk, basically told me to stop overreacting and that they stayedlonger and had drinks.<p>Nov 99----followed by someone to hair appointment after dropping kids off at H work. Recieved this letter from unknown person on my car door....it says.....Hi, Sorry to tell you like this, but if you don't know what your H has been up to you need to. H has joined the "F"the processor club at the (workplace name), and his affair is making a fool out of you and having the kids come by etc. just isn't right. An affair is one thing, but sex in the office is something special. If you already know I am sorry. Approach Manager if you don't believe it or he denies it, they know whats up. Good luck you deserve better.....<p>Nov 99 day after recieved letter... found out H was not at a dinner accross the street, but was about 50 miles away at a casino...Again H says I am overreacting<p>Dec----99 went to counseling.... letter issue was never resloved, don't know who wrote it, H denies any wrong doing ..........<p>2001----Went to suprise H at work w/breakfast. Called cell phone, didn't answer called work he wasnt in, H had left at 6:00am that morning it was now 9:00am Went to see if he was still working out for some strange reason???? HIs car was there I thought I would wait because he should be out any minute. Waited 1/2hour 9:30 h comes out of gym.. opens door I am watching him Call his cell phone, he picks up still putting his bag in the trunk.. I said hi where are you. He said at work, I said oh really I called and they said you weren't there. H said oh, I have been in the pkng lot for about 30 minues talking to a friend started to go into detail what they had talked about. Oh I said your at work in your pkng lot??? then he said oh, I mean at the gym talking on the phone in the pkng lot......by this time he is starting to drive away.. I honked my horn at him and said I'm right behind you. He hung up.....after that tons of excuses and apologies....crying and such...<p>Oct 2001---went on a trip w/some new friends for my Bday prior I expressed we needed some time alone for a weekend.. H talked to friends wife the whole time, in my presents too, I sat there and said nothing and sat back and tried to enter into the conversation the whole time. My H and friends wife didn't loose eye contact the whole time...... My H didn't include me in any conversation for two days... H doesn't understand what he did wrong again I am overreacting.......<p>There are more of like these alot more... that i just tried to ignore... Now tell me if I am overreacting about this???? He knows how I feel.... He knows how much trust means to me.....He just doesn't care.....<p>Now tell me what I should think!!!

IMHO, No, you are not over-reacting but that is just what he wants you to think. Have you read "Boundaries in Marriage" by Henry Claude and John Townsend? <p>You need to set some clear boundaries and clear consequences to his actions. For instance, my boundary was... if you contact (email, phone, mail, in person, verbal - in other words be specific like your talking to a 3 year old) THEN you will have to move out - not when you have the money, not on the weekend, not after we try and work this out - the moment there is ANY form of contact - you are no longer allowed in the house - I will get you enough stuff out to last till the weekend then you can pick up the rest over the weekend WHEN it is convenient for me. <p>After each contact there was a list of what I will and will not reasonably live with for him to come home, WHEN I am ready for him to come home.
The first list was 12 things - he was losing priveledges because he was untrustworthy. NOT because I was overreacting, NOT because I am unreasonable. He was reaping the consequences to HIS actions. I DID NOT choose to kick him out, HE CHOSE to leave each time he contacted her. So this list of 12 - at first he agreed to 3 - I said NO, ALL or NOTHING. then he agreed to 6 - I said NO, ALL or NOTHING. then he agreed to 8 - I said never mind - you have already made your decision. The list would include things like - not going out with the guys to the sportsbar. ALWAYS being accountable for his time - call me before you leave and when you get there. Answer cell phone. ALL these are VERY unreasonable to ask for IF the person has no reason to be questioned. HOWEVER, IF the person has a history of lying and a history of Affairs - this is TOTALLY REASONABLE. You are not doing it to punish or control the person, you are doing it to rebuild trust!!!!! <p>I think you feel powerless, like you have no choices. You do!!!<p>For more info, read my signature line. <p>Set some boundaries, set the consequences for when he breaks a boundary and be willing and strong enough to follow through, OTHERWISE it is all meaningless. <p>He is disrespecting you and will continue to do so until YOU stop allowing him to.

AND....<p>Remember and retrain your brain that his words mean nothing. NOTHING but ACTIONS, TIME and CONSISTANCY can help you heal. If he is sorry or he messed up or he didn't mean to or he didn't think, or he didn't know, or he forgot - DON'T LISTEN TO HIM!!! It is the actions that will convince you that he is working on this marriage - NOT his words.<p>I am sorry your here. I have been there. You are smart and intelligent. He will have you questioning your sanity and thinking your stupid because things just arent adding up!!!
Listen to yourself - not what he tells you - ESPECIALLY if he has a history of lying!!

I didn't get married to have to baby sit my H, if I wanted to do that I would have stayed in the dating scene. I really don't know if it is every worth it for me, right now I am hurt and angy, and very scared. What am I going to do??? He obiousely thinks nothing is wrong?? Everytime this stuff happens he says he is going to get the kids because I have no money or a job... and why would anyone let them live w/someone w/out one. I starts to get mad like I am the one who is liying and cheating and doing stuff behind his back... I'm scared to take the next step for separation...

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{camjon}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <p>I am sorry you are here. I can relate. Yes I know it is a shame - isn't it???!!! I feel that way too sometimes. The fact is that ANYONE who gets in a relationship is gets the repurcusions (sp?) of their upbringing. So in a sense we are raising them!!! when people get into counseling and read up on self-help they learn and grow on their own. However, if people do not - they need someone to either teach them how to treat people (by demanding respect) or find someone who allows them to crap all over them. Your best bet is to get help yourself. You have to recognise that you attracted this type person for a reason. If you do not get help you may end up divorcing this man and marrying the same man with a different name (or in my case the VERY SAME MAN!!!!). When I find myself focusing too much on saving my marriage - and it is one sided - i too feel it is not worth my efforts. Then what do I do? I focus on me - I get counseling - I go out with my girlfriends, I focus on my kids or a hobby or a book or go to school. <p>You have every right to be hurt and angry and scared. Even though it does not feel good, our feelings are warning signs to add fuel to the fire to "do something" about our circumstances. I will try to find a list of how to emotionally divorce someone. I think it will help you. Since you are afraid to separate this may be a good step for you. Plus you could try and focus on learning something - like take a typing class or nursing school. If you can't trust him and he throws it in your face that you need him. Then use this time to focus on how to NOT be dependant on him. <p>What does camjon like? Who is camjon? What are your dreams? when you were growing up - what did you want to be? <p>I think we all need to come to a place where we KNOW that we can live with or without our Husbands. A place where we can be happy with or without them. That is the place where we start demanding respect from them. KNOWING our own worth. We may desire our Husbands and desire our marriage but we need to know we don't need them.

I call this the emotional divorce. I got this off http://www.divorcebusting.com. I hope this helps. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. DivorceBusting suggests doing a 180.
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.<p>I am sorry you are here. I know you are hurting.

--What does camjon like? Who is camjon? What are your dreams? when you were growing up - what did you want to be? ---<p>She got lost during this marriage, she used to be very independant, smart, and a good person. <p>I have been out of work for about 3 years. I know alot about computers and can usually fix any problem. I got my Real Estate License last year, Haven't done much with it. I do currently manage a website for a realtor, and have alot of advertising expireeence, but I have no college degree. I got married at 19 and never went back. I don't know what I want, I really haven't thought about my dreams in years, well since I got married. I haven't had time. <p>I have a hard time accepting that this is somehow my fault, that I attracted this man. Everytime I tell someone what has been going on they somehow think I did something to make my H the way he is. This guilt is why I have been putting up w/this for years now, I shouldn't have to feel guilty anymore. I didn;t do anything. the only thing I have done was stay and try to piece things together. Plus the fact I have a really comfortable life right now, financially I mean.<p> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

You Go Girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you have a LOT of SKILLS and A LOT OF talents. <p>I did not mean it was your fault. I am sorry that is the way it came across. No, you did not make him that way. I guess for me it was my own naivity. To believe basically all people are good natured, and don't lie, and have compassion.
That is not true - that is where I find my fault in the whole thing. And you know that is really sad to say too but it is true - for me anyway. <p>Keep posting.<p>Here is one of my favorite sayings: <p>"Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim
Accept no one's definition of your life;
define yourself."
-Harvey Fierstein

Well, Just an update. I didn't talk to H all day yesturday. He called later that night, you know I told him not to come home. Well, he called and wanted to come and get some of his things and wanted to make sure that he wasn't alowed to come home. We talked on the phone for about and hour or so. About trust and what kind of a person forgets to tell their spouse of 10 years major things like some stranger watching my kids and sleeping in a bed 10 ft away from my drunk Hubby? I told him, well if he went away and I hired some strange man to babysit our kids and came home from a party and didn't mention that this man slept in a bed 10ft away from me wouldn't that make him feel a little weird??? I also asked him how he would feel if everything had happed to him instead of me would he be ok w/me telling him that he is overreacting???? That he has no reason to feel the way he does? I basically layed out all of the things that made me not trust him... The whole time line that I did. I also asked him what kind of wife would I be if I layed down and ignored it and did nothing??If I didn't care or love him I wouldn't even think twice about this stuff... He realized that I was right, I do need to work on the yelling at him for stupid things too... Thats my problem that I admit, but My H said that he loves me the way I am, because I am a strong person, who sticks up for myself and doesn't really put up w/S***, and he needs someone like that. I also told him I don't want to be the nagger all the time, I am his wife not his mother!!!! So for now... we are working on things again... but I realize now an my H told me this that he has leaarned alot from our relationship in the past 10 years... before he didn't know how to love and share feelings, he wasnt raised like that, I know that and have known, he has come along way emotionally. He told me I am his best friend in the world and he couldn't live with out me. We agreed that if we ever fall out of love with one another we would be honest with eachother about it. <p>for now we are working on things and trying to be as open as possible w/eachother..... thats a start!!!!

YEA!!!!!<p>I'm glad you're talking and working on it...<p>I want to apologize for setting off your buttons the other day with the 'over' word...I didn't know the whole story and now that I know more, I understand your feelings completely.<p>You are really strong, I admire that.

Good going camjon!! I am happy for you!!