Had weekly date with H tonight (Christmas shopping). How did it go? I still don't know. <p>I was at friends house, who lives just around the corner from H's house, so I texted him suggesting that I meet him at his place and then we go Christmas shopping from there. He rang me, and I got the distinct impression that he didn't want me at his house. But locality being what it was, it was certainly more realistic to meet at his and go to the mall from there. We decided over the phone that would be okay. <p>When I got there, he seemed VERY nervous. Wasn't sure why - could have been because it was my first visit to his new territory. Or he could have been embarrassed; it's not exactly a very nice place, scarce furniture, small rooms, whatever. Knowing my H, I could see from his point of view that he might not be proud of where he lives, but it really doesn't matter to me. I did my Plan A; didn't judge, didn't criticise (didn't feel the need to, really). He showed me around and took me upstairs to see his bedroom. Noticed the picture of him and I sitting on his bookshelf next to his bed. Made me feel good. <p>Off to the mall we went. Had a good time, yadda yadda. Plan A all the way. OW even called while we were there. I excused myself to the bathroom to freak out so I wouldn't do it in front of him. When I came out, he asked if I was okay. I smiled and said yes. He said, "sorry. She withheld her number. I didn't know it was her ringing". I smiled and said, "I know. It's okay". Continued shopping, laughed, got along great. He bought a new suit and wanted to try it on for me so I could see it. GOD! He looked SO handsome! I smiled and said "It's fab. I think I've just fallen in love with you all over again." He smiled at me. <p>Got back to his place at about 10pm, he made me coffee. We went up to his room, sat and listened to some music. He asked how I was going to get home, and I said I would probably take a taxi. Or I could spend the night and my friend nearby could drive me home in the morning. "That is, if you're comfortable with that" I said. He said no. <p>Ouch. <p>I stayed in Plan A. Didn't cry, didn't do an angry outburst, just asked if he had been comfortable spending the nite at my place after the car crash and the week after that, and he said Yes to the first, but No to the second. Asked him why and he said "well, I felt comfortable spending the night after the crash, and tried to feel comfortable the week after, but just didn't". <p>Ouch again.<p>Okay. Fine. I stayed in control. I think a small tear came down, but I didn't flip. I told him I think I needed to go away for a while, just to gather my thoughts and think about what I wanted to do. He seemed a bit concerned about this and asked where. I don't know yet, just a thought I'm tossing around in my head. Asked him how he would feel if I left the country for good. He said, "well, would that mean that you would consider us to be over?" I said, "I think leaving the country would only be an option if I had no love left for you. But it's only an option I'm considering. I've not made any decisions, yet." He looked sad. He said, "You know, I'm still not ruling anything out." This has been his way all along of saying he's not made a decision between me and OW. This is how he reassures me. This has been his consistent way of "making me feel better". Does it work? Sometimes. <p>I told him what a normal day is like for me. I wake up and wonder if today is going to be the day he tells me he's leaving me for her. I think about our situation most of the day, and while I'm still going out and doing things and keeping busy, it's still on my mind. And then I go to bed at night and cry because the bed is empty and cold. He listened as I told him this. Wouldn't look at me. <p>I asked him if he enjoys our time together. He said yes, until I start asking him questions. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks. Asking him questions about us and how he's feeling is my biggest LB! Finally! He's told me all along about how he's been scared of me in the past and felt he couldn't talk to me. Said he used to get a tight feeling in his chest when talking to me; waiting for me to explode and sream and shout. I have not acted this way since Dday, but tonight he said that he still sometimes feels the chest thing. I suggested that perhaps it's because he's waiting for the old me to come out and rage on him. He said I'm probably right. I promised him that the old me is dead, gone and buried. I promised him that she will never return to hurt him the way she has in the past.<p>I said to him, "I only ask you questions because I'm trying to figure out where I stand. I don't know what's going on. And you've told me you're confused, so I suppose I shouldn't expect answers." He agreed. Said he was definitely still confused and felt like he was being grilled when I ask him questions. (LB!) Even though my questions are well thought-out and very calm and non-judgemental, he doesn't like them. He said he feels like I'm asking the same questions over and over; mainly after the weekends when he's been with OW and I ask if he's had sex with her. I told him I won't ask him that anymore and will just put my trust in him that he will keep his promise to me. He said thank you. <p>I gathered my things and phoned a taxi. He came downstairs with me to wait. I told him I was sorry I made his chest hurt. I tried my best to explain that I no longer wish to hurt him the way I have in the past and that I have changed and learned new ways of doing things. He said that when I ask him questions, it doesn't feel like a normal conversation. It feels like it doesn't flow naturally. I opened my mouth to ask how it should "flow" but before I could say it, he said "and I don't know HOW it should happen. It just doesn't"<p>He then opened up a bit and said he was scared about going to his company Christmas party. He is going by himself; there will be 3000 people there and he only knows a handful of them. He has been dealing with major self-confidence issues recently (he doesn't have any) and so I listened and tried to reassure him he would be okay. Told him that he's come a long way in his self-confidence building and I'm proud of him. <p>Taxi showed up. I walked out the door and said goodbye. He called me back for a hug and quick kiss. I then pulled a letter to him out of my purse. A simple card that said "I love you" in it along with a hand-written letter I penned last night. No LB's in the letter. Just a very long heart-felt rendition of how I feel about him. Thanking him for the things he's done for me. Explaining to him the reasons why I love him and the qualities in him that I adore. Explained how I regret what I've done in the past, am taking steps to improve myself and my well-being and want our marriage back in a "new and improved" form. I made no judgements in the letter. I just poured out my love in it's purest sense. I was honest and humble. Asked him to read it tonight before he went to bed. He said he would. <p>Sent him a text message on the way home and said "no more questions. I hope I didn't upset you tonight. Wasn't my intention. Sleep well. I love you". <p>Wow. This is LONG! Sorry! Guess I'm just processing. Let's recap... Looks like we won't be spending any nights together for a while, as he's not comfortable with that. Finally discovered that when I ask him questions, he feels "grilled" and it's a major LB. Found out that he's still confused (fog?) and isn't ruling anything out. Think I saw sadness when I said I may consider leaving the country if I had no love left for him.<p>I'm sad by some things, but happy about others. I came home and cried and wished he was here. <p>So what's everyone's take on all this? (if you've read this far!) Stay in Plan A? Obviously don't ask him anymore questions - major LB and glad I finally learned that one! <p>Doesn't help that I've got every single one of my friends and family now saying that I should just not speak to him anymore. Everyone thinks I should be doing Plan B. They say he will continue to fence-sit as long as I let him. But I really don't feel ready for Plan B. I'm still SO in love and feel like my Plan A needs more time. <p>Help? <p>crying myself to sleep,
venusenvy

VE:<p>Sounds like you handled the situation VERY well. I think it's almost impossible not to do a little LBing, especially if you are with S for an extended time as you were. One of the most notable aspects of your night was his sharing with you that he didn't like it when you asked him questions. It sounds like he felt comfortable enough to share that with you, and that may open the door further for the two of you to confide more. Asking a bunch of questions seems it's always the big LB (I do it too much). <p>It sounds like your WH is questioning his decision to leave. It almost sounds like if you were to tell him you were leaving the country (are you in England?), he might freak out. It seems from what I've read of your situation that he may rely on you more than even he would admit to himself. <p>Sometimes it is appealing to think "If I just gave up on the M and told WS I didn't care anymore, that some lightbulb would go off in their head and they would probably hightail it back to our relationship." But I know one shouldn't pursue this route unless you are ready to go the distance. Hang in there.

venusenvy--<p>My take on this is to stay on plan a. And try not to ask anymore questions. Be the best person you are able to be. The rest will fall into place. I know when I stopped asking questions, and "snooping" was when my H started changing. He didn't feel so "put on the spot". He realized that I had changed, too, and that the other stuff didn't matter to me anymore. He mattered. <p>My H even decided on his own to stop all contact with OW. I haven't asked about her since. Just try to be the person you are, and your H will realize the reason he married you in the first place!<p>Take care!<p>Krystal

V<p>I am sorry you are hurting. But really I feel you did good. We all do some LB and I do feel some is healthy. You did not scream and shout.<p>I also feel that the guilt is really starting to wear on your H. My H did not like me asking questions either but sometimes I did ask things. I feel your H will open up to you. I told mine that he could talk to me, I might not know what to say but I would listen. He told me he could never talk to me about OW. Well about three weeks later he opened up and talked all about it.<p>Stay in Plan A. You are doing great and growing so much. You are strong. He will see in time.<p>
SLH

<p>[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: MMMMM ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Stay in Plan A? Obviously don't ask him anymore questions - major LB and glad I finally learned that one!<hr></blockquote><p>Yup! you got it! <p>You are doing FANTASTIC! Now next week, step up your plan A! Go into full gear, no questions! Be that safe place for your husband - where he feels total love and acceptance. <p>Deposit deposit deposit!!! <p>And I know it made you upset that OW called during your time with your husband - she is starting to show her colors.... she will step up her lovebusting while you step up your plan A.... So her call made you upset - but in retrospect, it was good - it was a sign that she is NOT liking your time with your husband, and she will start giving him a hard time about it. I would prefer that his chest hurt everytime that she calls, everytime that he is with her, everytime that he is not with you. Hang in there!<p>Keep up the good work....<p>And start a journal of every "weird" thing that happens - hang up calls, weird emails, etc. It might be useful some day - but keep this independent of your time and conversations with your husband - so that your interactions with H are purely plan A and deposit deposit deposit<p>On the goal, on the goal, on the goal.<p>TnT

V,<p>it was a long post [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] but it makes a lot of sense. You know you need to stay in Plan A - and it also seems you are doing a really, really great job. However, I sense something else here.<p>In general, men like to be with women who make them feel good about themselves. Somebody who makes them stretch to achieve. You know the old saying 'behind every good man...' - which carries a lot of truth. It's not that men are weak, they just feel better about themselves when their companion is supportive and admiring of them and this is one factor which causes them they to want to raise their game. Perhaps it speaks to our primordial survival of the fittest genetics. I don't know [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>However, it seems that your H has not been feeling this way in your relationship. It sounds like he has been suffering from your anger and this has caused him many problems. It could even be the cause of his feelings of insecurity and lack of self-confidence. So, what's going on in you? Have you examined why you blow up? What get's on your nerves? You know, being nice is only a part of Plan A and it's only possible to maintain in the long term because you modify your behaviour. In other words, you have to deal with your anger.<p>I'm confronting this myself. My problem goes way back to a poor Father-Son relationship, the result of a very authoritarian up bringing and lots of aggression in the home environment. I've struggled with this almost all my life and I'm still trying to move-on.<p>My wife isn't dealing with her problems. This still causes us grief - even last night she had a blow-up. And her problems also come from the home environment. She's a strong woman who fights against men. Doesn't want to be put down or put right (!!!!) by a man - you know the stuff. Unfortuneately I'm a man so I often have to carry her anger for the whole of humankind [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So, what about you? Are you confronting your anger? <p>take care....<p>- Freddy<p>[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Freddy ]</p>

Freddy- Hello and thanks for the good questions. Yes, I'm definitely confronting my anger. Been in IC since Dday and am seriously looking at the why's and how's of my reactionary (is that a word?) behaviour. Determined it comes from being ignored a lot as a child; Mom and Dad never paid much attention, so the only way I could get attention was to shout and scream and throw a fit. A behaviour I've carried through my life and one that I realise isn't getting me anywhere. <p>I've been able to get to what I call my "calm place" very easily. I think before I speak, rather than do the stream-of-consciousness speaking that I've been doing all my life. I've learned to stop and listen, rather than wait for my next opportunity to speak and voice MY opinion. I've learned to appreciate the opinions of others, rather than try to discount them if they don't agree with mine. So yes, I've learned a lot. And will continue to do so. I am motivated and determined - for myself, as well as my M. <p>Talked to H this morning. Rang and said that I was sorry if I upset him last night. I said it is never my intention to make him feel uncomfortable or upset. He repsonded in a very positive way, saying, "I know. It's okay. I do understand". And then proceeded to talk a bit more about how he feels when I ask him questions. Said he feels like he's on a gameshow sometimes with me firing questions away. I listened and said that I understood and asked if he could help me make the conversation flow. He said he would try. I said, "I guess I just need to learn which questions not to ask and which ones make you uncomfortable". He didn't seem angry about last night at all and seemed quite happy to talk to me this morning. All good. He also said he read my letter and it made him smile. Fair enough. <p>
love to everyone,
venus

venusenvy,
My BIGGEST problem throughout this whole nightmare is the fact that I have not been able to stop asking questions. If you can make yourself do nothing else, please try to stop asking any questions about the M at this point. My H and I are not going to make it, I'm afraid, because I could not STOP asking about his feelings, our relationship, the future, the A, all of it really. We are now selling our house and separating towards divorce. I thought I was working so hard, so loving, etc., but I guess I got it all wrong. I'm praying for you to have better patience than I did. I'm losing the love of my life.... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>P.S. - My issue was also anger. I became very unhappy in my M. My H never put me in a place of priority and I ended up expressing my anger by verbally abusing him. I, like you, sought counseling for it the minute he left, but I guess my H cannot get over it.<p>I know if you can keep the LB's out, your H will eventually see the changes in you. I pray that things work out in your M.<p>MOM

It does sound like you are doing a good job controlling your anger and outburts. I would only add one thing to your list of things to do while remaining in Plan A.
Not asking questions is good, but also I would avoid talking about the relationship. Plan A is about improving you to the point that you are a happier, healthier person to your WS. The changes you make should be substantial enough that they are evident and therefore do not have to be touted verbally. Like the old Nike slogan, "JUST DO IT".
Not to sound harsh, but I would cease all conversation about your relationship and how much you love him and how much you miss him. Telling him you cry yourself to sleep in the cold, lonely bed makes you sound needing and clingy. I understand that it is true and you feel you are being honest and humble. But, to him it makes you look desperate and undesirable.
Keep it light, act like you are so in control of your life and your destiny - because you are!<p>The good thing you said was about considering leaving the country. I would keep that open. Not necessarily bring it up, but if he asks you say something like, "yes, I am still considering what would be best for me. I am not making any decisions yet, but I am certainly thinking about my future and the rest of my life." <p>Right now, you are helping him fence sit. Stay in plan a, but focus on YOU!!!!

Hi venus,<p>I haven't posted to you before but have been following your story. I think you are doing a great job and it is only normal to make a few mistakes along the way.<p>While following your thread, i've always thought there was something that was bothering me but couldn't put my finger on it. However, it is clear now that it was about asking to many questions and how conversation sometimes feels awkward. I've had those awkward conversations with my H and even though i'm aware of it, it is hard to change the flow. <p>I do want to to agree with whiffle as to holding of relationship talks for awhile. It may come across as needy and pursual. It could even make him extremely guilty every time you say those things because he is being reminded of how he hurt you and that he may not feel those things right now (not that he won't again [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>Maybe think of it along the way of you two just beginning to date. If you said these things to someone in the very early stages of a dating, it would probably send them running as fast as they can. <p>Continue showing him how fun you are and allow him to enjoy your company. Give the OW time to continue to LB. Then while your H begins to wonder what he ever saw in her, you will be there being the best person you can be and hopefully he will remember why he married you. <p>Keep up the good work.
Kathy

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, thanks again to everyone for their input. Would still like to hear more thoughts from people, so jump in if you like!<p>I'm too lazy to scroll down to read/type the names, but thank you all for pointing out that my questions about M should be stopped! You are all absolutely right and I hereby promise, from this day forward, that I shall no longer partake in any Gameshow-Like Q&A sessions with my H! In fact, he just rang me from the Mall to tell me about a cool new digital camera he just saw. It was SO like the old times, I nearly cried when I hung up. He was very excited. And he called ME! Anyway, I digress...I didn't ask a single LB question. Must repeat to myself over and over...no q's. No q's. No q's. I can do this. I can do this. <p>I completely take on board, as well, what was said about appearing needy and clingy. Also, be the fun person I am and pretend we're on our first date! ABSOLUTELY! Light bulb moment, or what? <p>((((((myownme))))))
Big hugs for you, girl! I'm so sorry things aren't very nice for you right now. I certainly know what you mean about losing the love of your life. Stay strong, love! <p>Oh now I feel like I've left everyone who has replied out!<p>(((((((((((everyone!)))))))))<p>lots of from across the pond;
venus

Sounds like you did good.<p> I do have 2 questions though.<p>Any way you can ask questions (if you feel then need) on whatever topics he is talking about? If you show interest in the topics that he started then maybe he will start to see your questions in a different light as well. Not grilling him but showing an interest in what he said. As long as you stay away from certain areas that is.<p>Also anyway you would/could ask if you can go to Christmas party with him? Employee only? Maybe set him more at ease as something that he has to do. Just a thought

Gettingverytired-<p>Hello. Yes, I have been asking him questions about topics that interest him, actually. Whenever we get together, we discuss things topics that interest us both, but sometimes he switches into his "guy" mode and I do my best to listen, and then ask as many questions as I can. Funny thing is, I've learned SO much! I actually enjoy hearing about his interests and find that his face lights up when I ask about certain things I don't understand. He likes to teach me things and I like to learn, so it's a win-win situation. <p>Re: the Christmas party - Will be employees only, unfortunately. My own suspicions tell me that he probably wouldn't have taken me, anyway. :(<p>thanks!
venus

Venus ~ I think I have posted you before about this...you are doing a great Plan A except that you need to stop discussing your marriage or his affair.<p>I think several of us told you that, and now your H is telling you that. Relationship talks at this stage are pointless and in addition are a drain on the Love Bank.<p>Let him go, love him when he lets you, and simply get on with living.<p>If he is going to come back, it will only be after he's comfortable with experiencing the new you.<p>Think about when you were dating. Did any of us gals ever hang on to ANY guy if we started pressing them about committments and relationships and wanted long relationship talks?<p>No, we learned how to play with them, be their friend, and just enjoy them, living in the moment.<p>Date your H. Be his pal and let the rest be.<p>If he wants to come home, he'll let you know, in his time and in his own way. All these questions are simply a fearful effort to get control of the situation. And the fact of the matter is that you cant control it.<p>So just enjoy what you have, and let the rest go.

Okay, Bramblerose. You did it. I don't know how, but you did it. For some reason your post hit me straight across the head and then came back for more. Don't ask me why or how. It just did. I mean, everyone has basically said the same thing, and I was definitely hearing it. But for some reason, the way you wrote what you wrote really drove it home for me. THANK YOU! <p>I have printed it out and will carry it with me in my purse. And whenever I need a pep-talk, I'll pull it out and read it. <p>Thank you all SO much!
Love
Venus

^^
bumped for reference

V<p>I have a question? <p>Has you WH asked to come home?<p>Have you asked him to come home?<p>When you told him you were thinking about leaving the country did you mean come to US? Are you from here? I am just curious about your situation.<p>Just was thinking about these. I have been following your post and feel you are right on target. Hang tough girl. You are doing great. <p>
SLH

bump

Still love him -<p>Re: your questions,
I haven't asked him to come home. He's only been gone about a month. I know if I asked him, he would say no. He's still "confused" and still "isn't ruling anything out". Likewise, he hasn't asked to come home, but I have made it perfectly clear that he is welcome here anytime and is welcome to move back in when/if he feels comfortable doing so. <p>Just a bit of background - his reasons for moving out...He has never lived on his own. He went from living with him Mom, to living with his Aunt, to living with me. Never did the "roomate" thing. Always had someone to do things for him, like the cleaning etc... said he wanted to try and be independent on his own, do his own shopping and be completely responsible for himself. Also wanted time and space to sort himself out, think, decide what he wants. I can understand this, definitely, and have heard from a friend of his that he was expressing these things long before OW came into the picture. I think the A was the catalyst. Once he met OW, he had even more reasons to want to do all these things. We have talked about it, and while I'm supportive of the reasons he describes, I also made it clear that all of it was capable while he was living with me. He doesn't see it that way, so what can I do?<p>As far as country info - would prefer to keep that info quiet at the moment. Nothing personal - but I do have reasons. All shall be revealed in the future, perhaps. <p>Cheers!
venus