It is common for a ws to not feel loved, or in-love, as we all know...and we dismiss this as just fog, lust, lack of effort in meeting en's etc. The harleys say it is all mechanistic, makes no difference who you are married too, in-love is all about having your needs met. What confuses me is bs who clearly are not having their needs met (or very little), when asked why they continue to work at the marriage reply they love their spouse.....how is this possible if spouse is not meeting their needs? That suggests they aren't really in-love, but perhaps just simply do not want to start over, be a quitter, face failure, refuse to lose spouse to op (pride) etc. etc. which is fine, but none of those reasons have anything to do with loving spouse. This seems to be true often, cause this so-called love turns rapidly to dislike, illwill, even hate, when the spouse does not respond. A ws I has a very hard time trying to make sense of a spouse saying they want to be married cause they love you, yet being very negative and hurtful when the ws does not respond like they want.

From Harriet Lerner's book The Dance of Deception : pg. 159.<p>Thus, the very way the three players are positioned in this triangle keeps the spouse on the outside and increasingly distant position. [Frank] Pittman's advice to men who have fallen in love with the "other woman" is: "Bear in mind that a man feels closest to whichever woman shares his secrets. And he feels uncomfortable around anyone to whom he's lying. If you've been deceiving your wife while sharing your inner-most thoughts and feelings with your affair partner, of course you will feel in love with her and out of love with your wife.
This is why having an affair--although it is not a loving thing to do--does not necessarily mean you don't love your wife. See what happens when you tell your wife the truth and start lying to the other woman." Pittman (from his book Private Lies) concludes that the issue is less whom one lies with, than whom one lies to <p>Thanks SnL...I have been waiting to use this quote ever since I read it.
Cali

I have asked myself why I love my W many times SNL. With everything she has put me and the kids through I must answer that I do not know any longer. <p> I think it must be a form of fog, or mental illness, if you will. Co-dependency? Fear of the unknown? I just don't know. <p> I used to talk to others in similar situations with GREAT passion as to why they should leave their WS. Why it could NEVER work out. Once a cheater always a cheater. How bitterness would set in and they would be in a much worse marriage than ever before. Yes I even preached about how affairs went so totally against God. The BS should leave and divorce their spouse immediatly.<p> Then it happened to me and everything I thought I was turned out to be a lie, in this regard. I honestly tell myself that I can have a better marriage than ever before. That what I told other people(mainly friends)I only meant for them. I am different. I have proved that for the last 10 months. I have read here, listened to the people here, and believe that I can be happier. If only WS would put her heart into working on us.<p> After reading on the recovery boards for awhile I am starting to doubt that we can ever be happy again. I am starting to doubt my motives for continuing to "WIN" my wife back. I am starting to think something has short circuited somewhere deep inside of me. I am slowly starting to let go a little I think. <p> Tomorrow I intend to browse the yellow pages for divorce Lawyers. I am finding that I am un-able to go to a real Plan B. But, I do not want this to go on much longer. So I am in a bind so to speak. <p> Do I love my wife even though she isn't meeting any of my top 5 needs? Or so rarely that when she does meet them, it only hurts worse. Yes, I do love my wife. Or, maybe it is the memories that I love. The good times and the hopes of more of the same. I certianly do not love who she is right now.<p> jd

Interesting concept, but he is wrong, just like the harleys are wrong, fact is no one knows what in-love is about, we can observe some of the characteristics of in-love, but no one knows what it is in absolute terms. I am very leery of all the behavioural oriented explanations, I think they are more the symptons, manifestations of in-love, not the cause. IMO the truth of in-love lies in our genes, our DNA. We love those whom we fit best, in a thousand complex and little understood ways. But we can marry and cohabitate with a much wider variety of people, and therein lies the value of MB....it cannot make you be in love, but it can improve the relationship you have, any relationship.....but each of us will have to decide for ourselves whether that is gonna work for us. And because we each set the bar at a different height we are gauranteeing a lot of business for the harleys et al.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>... This seems to be true often, cause this so-called love turns rapidly to dislike, illwill, even hate, when the spouse does not respond. A ws I has a very hard time trying to make sense of a spouse saying they want to be married cause they love you, yet being very negative and hurtful when the ws does not respond like they want.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is one misjudgement ... we, BS, are very hurt when WS doesn't reponse but not very negative and hurtful. Sooner or later when our limit is reached by prolong "no respond or hurt", BS, as a human have defense mechanism to resent the treatment, nothing got to do w/ "out of love". My 2¢ on my behavior when WW took off for OM, I am hurt but I won't hurt her or angry at her. I understand that I have to let her go since I love her. However if she is prolong her action or choice, I know my body and mind will start to protect myself from those hurtfull episode.

snl, you said:<p>"IMO the truth of in-love lies in our genes, our DNA."<p>Well, I'm not sure if I'd place it on such a molecular level, lol! But I do agree with you that the truth of being in-love resides within us, as individuals. Which is why some people are able to follow the Harley method and end up with a success story and others fail miserably. <p>Certainly I would love my H again if he met my ENs. But it would have to be something that *he* wanted to do, not something he did because someone else told him to do it. If you lack the true *honest* motivation to work on meeting a spouse's ENs, then it all becomes a farce, and what good does it do anyone? <p>I do think that the Harley method is very valid, and that it *can* work. But just not with all people. Only those who apply it honestly, because they still do love their spouse. One year ago, I could have easily followed the Harley method - and, as a matter of fact, I did. I really tried my best. But having not received anything in kind and nothing has changed about my situation except that I'm more resigned to it, I see this as more of a problem with a conflict between who I am and who my H is. <p>Relationships prior to marriage are all good and fun, and it's easy to say, "When we get married, we'll never ..." or "We'll always ..." But applying it is a different matter. Many people have great difficulty walking the walk.<p>JMHO,<p>belld

Going back to Harley et al definition of love discussion. Why BS stays ? There are 2 kind of love, unconditional love - love based on values, some maybe in our gene. Then there is romantic love or what we call it "in-love". The love based on fullfiling EN(s). Do BS "in-love" with WS ? The heck no, how could I with all the treatment that WS do. Do want to marriage with this WS ? The heck no, I want my W back not WS. BS stays in M because of love W but not because "in love" with WS. If we had received romantic love or we are receiving it now or the promise of receiving it in the future, as human being, we are willing to wait for it.

snl ~ <p>It seems to me that the Harleys only deal with one aspect of love. I don't think they are "wrong" - I think they focus their energy on the most effective aspect of saving a marriage. I think they are completely right...but that there are other aspects to love that they don't cover. The "in-love" feeling is conditional, based on the meeting of needs, and is the most compelling reason why marriages break or remain intact. <p>I struggled with the question of why I still felt love for my H for many months while my H was out of the house with his OW. <p>What I discovered was this:<p>Willingness to have needs met by someone else is a huge factor. While my H had his shields up and didn't let me meet his needs, I was willing to have him meet mine. So, my H was still meeting some of my needs. Financial support was/is a big one. Even while his affair was at it's height, he financially supported me - I didn't have to go get a job. I also find him extremely attractive. And then there was the whole Family Committment thing. Yeah, by going off with OW he was doing horrible damage to the kids, but I also saw him trying his best to see the kids regularly, only made a few half hearted attempts to take them to see OW, and basically did show them love and affection when he was with them. When I had the baby, you couldn't pry my H away from my bedside. I was in the hospital for 5 days, and while his cell phone bills show that he was calling OW whenever he went home for a shower or sleep - he was at my side 12-14 hours a day holding his daughter with the biggest smile you've ever seen.<p>These are all things that he continued to do. Yes, he was lovebusting, but he was also meeting needs.<p>Now. Granted, the lovebusters were draining more than he was depositing...BUT...<p>The next thing I learned that unconditional love involves action. Specificially the action of choosing to make a decision to love. So while there were plenty of times that I did not have "in-love" feelings, I still loved my H. If you want to use a badly abused phrase, I loved H, but I wasn't "in-love". There was a point that I lost all respect, and admiration. But I still cared very much about him.<p>I was willing to love him. <p>And also...something that many others have discovered...is that you often get back 10-fold what you put into a relationship. So...while I was putting alot of effort into showing my H love, I was getting something back. Was HE giving anything back? No. But that doesn't mean that I didn't benefit emotionally from loving him to the best of my ability, regardless of what he was doing.<p>Now, I also discovered that my love for my H was tied up in fear and emotional dependency. This side of me was totally unhealthy, and was something that I used our separation to work on very hard. The second time I filed for divorce was when I had finally come to peace with the situation, accepting that while I loved my H, that he wasn't marriage material, and that I would be OK, and in fact I would be GOOD without him. You see, I had all of my self-worth tied up in my H. Whatever he thought about me was taken as written in stone TRUTH. When he rejected me for someone else, I wanted to die. <p>But because I have worked so hard to overcome the emotional dependency side of things, I don't think that if my H has another affair, he will ever be able to completely destroy me like he did the first time. My self-esteem is no longer based on what he thinks of me.<p>So really, those 3 things (willingness to have ENs filled, the decision to love with the willingness to forgive, and deep emotional dependency) were what kept me hanging on.<p>Only one of those things was really sick.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> What confuses me is bs who clearly are not having their needs met (or very little), when asked why they continue to work at the marriage reply they love their spouse.....how is this possible if spouse is not meeting their needs? That suggests they aren't really in-love, but perhaps just simply do not want to start over, be a quitter, face failure, refuse to lose spouse to op (pride) etc. etc. <hr></blockquote><p>First off, I don't believe that unmet needs are the main reason people choose to have affairs. I believe it has to do with how content they are in their own personal "skin"...I believe that people who have affairs are searching for personal happiness...for contentment.<p>I'm a BS. It's true that not all my needs were being met by my spouse, BUT I was CONTENT in life...I was happy. I was at peace with myself and my marriage...and I most DEFINITELY was IN LOVE with my H. Heck, I was in-love with my WHOLE LIFE AND THE WORLD.<p>I think my own personal contentment had more to do with my ability to "let things go" than it did with whether or not my H was "meeting my needs".<p>And, maybe my H's discontentment with me (and/or dissatisfaction in marriage/life), had more to do with his inability to "let things go" than it did with any particular "need" I wasn't meeting.<p>If my H (or any WS), believes that true happiness can only be attained with one person (OP) then I believe they are being untrue to themselves.<p>Happiness, true contentment, comes from within.<p>Peace, ~Marie

SnL,<p>I don't recall reading anywhere, expect in what y you write, that Harley says we will love anyone who fills our EN's. I believe that he recognizes that there an individual is drawn to certain people. The assumption he makes is that since the WS once loved their BS, the basic chemistry and connection is there. It has been neglected and in most cases even abused. By reconnecting and nurturing each other, the connection (love) can be rebuilt.<p>I can guarantee you that there is no way I could love ANY man. I've met too many creeps. Some of them I dated and they tried very hard to meet my needs. Some of them did a great job of meeting my needs. But I could never connect with them on an emotional/physical basis. I think that's where the DNA thing you are talking about fits in.<p>There are all sort of signals that our bodies and psyches put out that we are not even aware of on a conscious level. Pheromones are one I can think of. I've read of some studies that have found that a person can have a strong negative reaction to the pheromones of an SnL,<p>I don't recall reading anywhere, expect in what you write, that Harley says we will love anyone who fills our EN's. I believe that he recognizes that there an individual is drawn to certain people. The assumption he makes is that since the WS once loved their BS, the basic chemistry and connection is there. It has been neglected and in most cases even abused. By reconnecting and nurturing each other, the connection (love) can be rebuilt.<p>I know that I could love ANY man. I've met too many creeps. I even dated some of them. Some of them did a great job of meeting my needs. But I could never connect with them on an emotional/physical basis. I think that's where the DNA thing you are talking about fits in.<p>There are all sorts of signals that our bodies and psyches put out that we are not even aware of on a conscious level. Pheromones are one I can think of. I've read of some studies that have found that a person can have a strong negative reaction to the pheromones of some people.<p>The reason that the BS still loves the WS is that people are individuals. Each one falls out of love on their own clock. The BS’s anger you speak about is the BS slowly falling out of love… their love bank is being depleted at their own individual rate. If the WS continues to abuse the BS (affairs are emotional abuse), then the BS will eventually fall out of love. <p>You know, lamenting over the meaning of love, can, in and of itself be a great method to avoid recommitting to a relationship.

Zorweb....I don't recall reading anywhere, expect in what y you write, that Harley says we will love anyone who fills our EN's. <p>Snl...I had an intense 1 1/2 he conversation with steve H wednesday this is exactly what he said...although we "discussed" this (and all the other things I worry about extensively) quite a bit. Further they would have to say this, otherwise MB would have to include a component of determining compatibility. You know zorweb (just for ruminating, not trying to start anything) there is a name for blind obedience to anything manmade, and it is called cultism. In some ways MB resembles a cult. It is highly structured behavioural modification, it does not do well under close scrutiny of its principles. There are huge holes in it's application as well. They completely ignore motivation, and define success as those who "do it", if you don't "do it" you must be defective in some way, not applying yourself. There is absolutely no room in MB for the concept of not wanting to be married to someone and that be a legitimate (as in healthy) life choice. Instead the focus is on manipulating you (through argument) into making an analytical choice and ignoring your feelings (as irrelevant). Ok, if that is true than staying married becomes a pro/con decision...why not just check out all prospective mates, and then choose the one with the best deal. Steve did not do well at this point in the conversation (cause it is indefensible), he did not want to suggest that that. Instead he (and MB) suggests whoever you are married to is the best choice...this is clearly nonsense. It has taken a while, but I understand all this very clearly now, I know what MB is and what it is not..... what it is not is a means to be in-love, MB has nothing to do with love. It only can be helpful if two people, without significant personality disorders (that prevent intimacy), do choose each other for other not well understood (maybe someday, not yet though) reasons we label in-love...OR they are settlers (which describes many) and are content with marriages that are contracturally based (you meet my needs, I will meet yours). The vast majority of bs here who feel they "love" their spouse and just got to make it work are indeed making a choice, a cold calculated choice that what they have is the best they can do, and until their spouse falls below a given level of reward, that is what they are going to do, and not take the risk of starting over. This is absolutely ok, I am not making a value judgement, but it implies a lot of things, and one of those is if a spouse percieves they can make a better deal elsewhere, they are free to leave, and in fact that is what they do. On the other hand, people in-love have no need of MB (or at least only benefit minimally from some of the behavioural suggestions) cause they will never have affairs or divorce anyways, but such love is not common.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> ...why not just check out all prospective mates, and then choose the one with the best deal. <hr></blockquote><p>Isn't this called 'dating'???? Isn't this what we do BEFORE marriage???<p>Peace, ~Marie

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>Interesting concept, but he is wrong, just like the harleys are wrong, fact is no one knows what in-love is about, we can observe some of the characteristics of in-love, but no one knows what it is in absolute terms. I am very leery of all the behavioural oriented explanations, I think they are more the symptons, manifestations of in-love, not the cause. IMO the truth of in-love lies in our genes, our DNA. We love those whom we fit best, in a thousand complex and little understood ways. But we can marry and cohabitate with a much wider variety of people, and therein lies the value of MB....it cannot make you be in love, but it can improve the relationship you have, any relationship.....but each of us will have to decide for ourselves whether that is gonna work for us. And because we each set the bar at a different height we are gauranteeing a lot of business for the harleys et al.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Geez...SnL..."he's wrong...the Harley's are wrong?" We're talking people who have been studying and learning about this thing A LONG time...How can you discredit them so easily?<p>#1. It is difficult to stay 'in-love' forever...it is a waxing and waning kinda thing due to each people's "stuff" and the complexities and reality of life...<p>#2. Long lasting, mature love is the kind of love that sustains a relationship...and that is the kind of thing YOU CAN build...that's the love that I think the Harley's and others talk about...<p>What is up? People want for their relationships to be easy and for it to fulfill them...NOT gonna happen.<p>Happiness comes from within...and you gotta fulfill yourself...you can't expect someone else to forever.

cali, I was only referring (they are wrong) that in-love is solely a function of behaviour, it is not. Is only my opinion, but what do I know. I am sure you are well aware that all through history "experts" have been wrong about stuff. In steves defense, he did agree with me that fit does matter, we differ on how much it matters, and how often it matters. IMO the harleys have not done their homework, their philosophy is anecdotal, and to a large degree self-selecting. There principles work with people who want them to work, who have already decided to settle (for the most part), or the rare couple who somehow is in-love and got off track. The harleys have not done population studies using approved technbiques for this stuff. It is like col sanders saying most people like chicken, cause they eat it and does em good. Never realizing how many people never come in, or quickly leave, etc. etc. <p>I don't have any real problem with this. They are providing a service, and learning good interpersonal skills is not a bad thing. I would just prefer they not come on so hard about knowing more about myself and who I should be intimate with than I do. They have a certain intensity, a kinda mission mentality that bothers me....of course so do I, so maybe it takes one to know one. Guess it would be ok if I agreed with their surmise of in-love, but I know they are wrong. If they spend more time first working on whether a given marriage should exist, helping people discern to what degree they made a marital error, and once that is thoroughly aired, let people choose to proceed, or help them through an amicable divorce I would be a lot happier with them, and trust them more. It feels to me like what is important to them is winning, of "saving" another marriage (or at least making it appear so), another notch in the belt. Not that they really are that concerned about the mental health of the participants. I have spent a number of hours with jenn and steve, enough to feel comfortable I know where they are coming from. And if I want to "restore" my marriage just for the sake of restoring it, they are the coaches I would pick. But if I need to understand the nature of my marriage, and how my w and I fit, and what limitations that places on any future happiness, they are not very good at that.<p>It is a paradigm conflict cali, and irreconcillable between those who feel as I do, and those who feel as you (and MB, and so forth do). I do not think most marriages should be saved, I think the reason we have the divorce rate (and marital unhappiness rate) is because people do not fit very well. I think people can be talked into staying married by MB stuff, and people behaving better, but they do this at the expense of passion, and bonding, they cohabitate with safe sex....what I didn't understand was this is enough for large numbers of people, but not for us all, and I do not think I am selfish or a freak cause a deeper relationship is what marraige means to me. I do think people can be behaviourally programmed, and there is no doubt in my mind that two different, but motivated people can craft a successful relationship, what I don't understand is why they would do it, or why if it is just about "doing it" they wouldn't look around and do it with someone else. If there is no mystery to in-love, no passion, no special fit than what's the point? I can hire someone to meet all my needs far as that goes, would I then love em? What about same gender? Sex is the only EN that cannot be made by same gender, why don't we fall in love with someone who admires us, gives us financial security, gives us stimulating conversation, etc. etc. according to harley principles we should love whoever does that. Opposite gender is the firs obvious deal breaker re fit, one we all understand, but there are others cali too, and not just anyone can meet the needs for each of us (or us them), if we insist on using that symbolism.<p>cali...Geez...SnL..."he's wrong...the Harley's are wrong?" We're talking people who have been studying and learning about this thing A LONG time...How can you discredit them so easily?<p>snl...wasn't easy, and I have worked very hard at understanding this stuff, and I am good at it (psychology).<p>#1. It is difficult to stay 'in-love' forever...it is a waxing and waning kinda thing due to each people's "stuff" and the complexities and reality of life...<p>snl...Indeed it is difficult to the degree you don't fit, in-love is how you measure fit. Those who fit well are in-love all the time 24/7 all their life, that is how it works.<p>#2. Long lasting, mature love is the kind of love that sustains a relationship...and that is the kind of thing YOU CAN build...that's the love that I think the Harley's and others talk about...<p>snl...There is no such thing as mature love. You either fit or you don't, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. However you can fail to recognize it (because of freewill), and you can make poor choices. You CANNOT build in-love, but you can craft an successful emotional contract, you can settle for less than an in-love fit. What is interesting is how and why people make that choice. What is tragic is when one wants to make it, and the other does not.<p>c..What is up? People want for their relationships to be easy and for it to fulfill them...NOT gonna happen.<p>snl...You are correct, as long as we continue to marry in such ignorance.<p>c...Happiness comes from within...and you gotta fulfill yourself...you can't expect someone else to forever<p>snl...Happiness does not come from within. I stay out of most of those threads cause is a waste of time arguing the psychological realities of happiness with people who think we are all unhappy just cause we have not decided to be happy. You are a smart woman marsha, do you really think evolution works that way? What we label happiness is the assessment of whether our life is working in a healthy manner for us, and you ignore those feelings at great risk. Choosing to be happy while your life is seriously screwed up (like being married to an emotionally toxic individual) is no different than drinking yourself oblivious so you "feel" happy, the car wreck is still gonna kill you. You cannot decide to be happy, any more than you can decide to fly. All you can do is reassess your internal paradigms and change them to match what you think will make you happy (such as expecting less from a spouse, or staying in a dead end job, or strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a bus). As humans we have the capacity to choose anything, and self-medicate ourselves into acceptance (commonly referred to as denial, co-dependence, etc.). When you are not happy it can only mean two things, you need to change yourself, OR you need to change your life. If you ignore the latter option you will eventually pay a very steep price.<p>
[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>#1. It is difficult to stay 'in-love' forever...it is a waxing and waning kinda thing due to each people's "stuff" and the complexities and reality of life...<p>snl...Indeed it is difficult to the degree you don't fit, in-love is how you measure fit. Those who fit well are in-love all the time 24/7 all their life, that is how it works. <hr></blockquote><p>Can you actually NAME couples who are in-love all the time 24/7 ???? 'cause they'd make a fortune if they wrote a book about it....
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><p>#2. Long lasting, mature love is the kind of love that sustains a relationship...and that is the kind of thing YOU CAN build...that's the love that I think the Harley's and others talk about...<p>snl...There is no such thing as mature love. You either fit or you don't, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. However you can fail to recognize it (because of freewill), and you can make poor choices. You CANNOT build in-love, but you can craft an successful emotional contract, you can settle for less than an in-love fit. What is interesting is how and why people make that choice. What is tragic is when one wants to make it, and the other does not. <hr></blockquote><p>There is no such thing as mature love.
Youch!! That would sure surprise a lot of people. I guess that's why so many WSs live to regret their affair and wish they'd just worked their issues out with their former spouses....and I'm sure there's some biblical stuff I could write on this topic...but the assuredness of your statement surprises me. No such thing as mature love....hmmmm.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
c..What is up? People want for their relationships to be easy and for it to fulfill them...NOT gonna happen.<p>snl...You are correct, as long as we continue to marry in such ignorance.
<hr></blockquote><p>Maybe as we continue to exist in ignorance...I'm not sure marrying has anything to do with it. We can justify our feelings and behaviors any old way you want to....<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
c...Happiness comes from within...and you gotta fulfill yourself...you can't expect someone else to forever<p>snl...Happiness does not come from within. I stay out of most of those threads cause is a waste of time arguing the psychological realities of happiness with people who think we are all unhappy just cause we have not decided to be happy. You are a smart woman marsha, do you really think evolution works that way? What we label happiness is the assessment of whether our life is working in a healthy manner for us, and you ignore those feelings at great risk. Choosing to be happy while your life is seriously screwed up (like being married to an emotionally toxic individual) is no different than drinking yourself oblivious so you "feel" happy, the car wreck is still gonna kill you. You cannot decide to be happy, any more than you can decide to fly. All you can do is reassess your internal paradigms and change them to match what you think will make you happy (such as expecting less from a spouse, or staying in a dead end job, or strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a bus). As humans we have the capacity to choose anything, and self-medicate ourselves into acceptance (commonly referred to as denial, co-dependence, etc.). When you are not happy it can only mean two things, you need to change yourself, OR you need to change your life. If you ignore the latter option you will eventually pay a very steep price. <hr></blockquote><p>Happiness does not come from within. I stay out of most of those threads cause is a waste of time arguing the psychological realities of happiness with people who think we are all unhappy just cause we have not decided to be happy. I do think that some people choose to be unhappy. I do think that some people blame and justify their immaturity and unhappiness on others. I do think people look outside themselves and say "If only _________ were different..." People do need to look inside themselves. And it is just a decision....a hard one...a mature one...but a decision nonetheless....<p>But you know what SnL...God is with me on this one. And he wants people to have mature...growing relationships...and he wants people to be happy....but happiness can only happen when YOU work on YOU and when you figure out that no one can MAKE you happy but you. <p>The glass is truly either half empty or half full.

SNL,<p>Have you considered this possibility?<p>There are needs you are meeting for her to be in love with you that you do not realize you are meeting.<p>ANNA

SNL,<p>I just realized I was addressing that question to you and thinker, when you weren't saying this about you guys.<p>So let me change my statement a little.<p>Are you sure these people on here are either getting enough needs met to still be in love or have enough deposits left to still have love left over?<p>Also, look at it another way...The Harley's speak of the love bank. My husband didn't deposit much love in my bank. However, there were things I admired about him that continued depositing some love in my bank automatically. Just certain things about his character. <p>Since there weren't many deposits, it was really easy for me to have a breaking point. I went in the red. I fell out of love with him.<p>Now, for him, I made lots of deposits in his love bank. It took three years of neglect for him to finally leave me. It took him thinking I may be having an affair by telling him I no longer loved him, for major deposits to be with drawn. <p>He still has some love for me though. This is because I deposited a great deal of love in his bank for 13 years. <p>A lot of MBers still have some deposits they are withdrawing every day. Eventually though with there spouse being gone long enough, with just enough abuse, or neglect, or whatever it may be that is withdrawing these deposits, even these BS's will fall out of love.<p>This is true with your wife too. She may be in the black right now, but as time goes by, if you don't make the deposits or you make too many withdrawals, she too will be in the red.<p>Each of us have a different level of tolerence. One small deposit for one person, could be a huge deposit for another. You can not measure how much it will take for one person to finally break and say, your love is now bankrupt. This is all individual.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>P.S.<p>Someone questioned your questioning the Harley's and indicated this was wrong due to there knowledge. I disagree with this, I respect persons with degrees but when applying their theorys to my own life, I question also. <p>Our world, even the experts, is filled humans, there is always room for improvement. Nothing is perfected yet, or will be.<p>The Harley's, in my opinion, do have one of the best approaches to marriage counseling I have ever seen. Can it be improved though? All marriages are not being saved so I say, "yes". When we stop questioning, our world stops improving.<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Dear SnL:<p>Have you ever read anything by the Dalai Lama? If so, what is your opinion of this man and his philosophies/practices?<p>Do you believe that ending your marriage would make you happy?<p>The mind is a VERY POWERFUL thing. If you honestly believe it, then it is probably so.<p>Perhaps ending your marriage is BEST for you. Why are you fighting yourself so vigorously?<p>Are you truly looking for someone/anyone to convince you to change your mind? <p>Peace, ~Marie

Hi snl,<p>Guess what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna agree with you.<p>I suppose it could be the depression talking (that's what people have been telling me lately, so I won't discount it) but I am seeing a big difference between what is espoused here (and I have certainly had a hand in spreading the Harley concepts) and the reality of many situations.<p>As someone who's posted a bazillion (or 6000) postings since 1999, I know this MB stuff inside out and sideways. <p>A few thoughts: I have always maintained that love is a feeling. Love is a choice doesn't work for me. Love, to me, is like respect. It's earned. Now, I love a lot of people, not because they are lovable necessarily, but because I just do. I don't have a reason, or maybe I do: like I love my mom, and my sister, and my friend Kim who I haven't layed eyes on in ten years (but we talk on the phone once a month)... none of them is meeting all my needs, and sometimes they aren't meeting any of my needs, but I love them anyway. <p>There are some people I don't love. Sometimes they are very nice to me, and are (in theory) meeting my needs, but I don't love them for some reason I can't even pinpoint.<p>My H is meeting all of my top needs, although we are struggling in some ways that touch on some of the lesser needs (financially, for example). I love him completely. I think about him and have all these nice warm fuzzy feelings... I look in his eyes and see a man who thinks I'm beautiful and sexy and worth loving. I hope he sees those same feelings coming from me... they are certainly there.<p>My ex-H isn't meeting any of my needs, but I will always have a love for him, I think. I can't say why, other than he was my H for 20 years, and the father of my children, and maybe just that I loved him even when I didn't like him. I don't know, at this point, whether we could have stayed married for one minute longer than we did, but I still think it's sad that it ended. I want him to be happy, and healthy, and in love with someone who isn't me.<p>I read, was it here, on this thread?, that MB is like a cult. I chuckled when I read that. You know, sometimes it DOES feel like that. I don't think it's dangerous or anything, but sometimes I think the cognitive approach clouds the very real and human feelings we have. <p>So... tonight I am stepping out of the mold (for me) and taking a chance at thinking "outside the MB box"...<p>Then again, maybe it's just the depression talking. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Sheryl,<p>Very well said!<p>ANNA<p>P.S.<p>To me though, being madly in love verses having a love for my husband that will always be there is two different things. Being madly in love with someone who hasn't met your needs in a long time is usually just not there. I do think too you can be in love with that person by looking back at wonderful times. The individual is no longer making deposits but the memories make their own love deposits.<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>