I haven’t given an update in a while, and I wanted to get W approval per POJA to continue to post our story here. The last couple of weeks have certainly been up and down, but they’ve ended on an up note, thus far.<p>W and I both had individual counseling sessions with Steve during the first week of Dec. W filled out the EN and LB questionnaires, but hasn’t returned them to Steve. After our sessions, we talked a little about them. I don’t really recall all the details of the talk, but basically, W said she doesn’t want to continue with Steve because she thinks both Steve and I will construe any further sessions as a commitment to the M.<p>In my session with him, Steve told me something of which I’m well aware.... That W is having a difficult time with trusting that I AM making permanent changes. I can appreciate that, especially considering my less than enthusiastic participation in our M for the last four years. That’s something that absolutely will change, whether we stay married, or not. W DID give me her EN and LB Q’s, and it’s nice to finally get a concrete idea of what her needs are.<p>Several weeks ago, I printed and made available to W, a couple of threads from this forum. I must have inadvertently given her the wrong one (I thought it was because she was lurking at the time, but I don’t any more). Some of the content made her angry, and I decided to not give her any more “teaching.” Especially since that’s one of her biggest LB’s. <p>In a subsequent conversation, she mentioned that she certainly didn’t see my “undying love” for her in those posts. I was terribly sorry that the printouts had upset her and wrote about it in my journal... I ended up writing her a love letter that explained some of the reasons why I DO love her. I posted that letter here asking for advice as to whether or not I should send it. I ultimately decided not to send it for fear that she’d think I was being needy and only make her more distant. I hoped that some day, she’d be able to view it in the intended light.<p>Last weekend (I believe, maybe a little earlier), we had another talk, and she ended up un-inviting me to her family Christmas. Her parents have essentially been MY parents for the last 12 years, ever since I severed the relationship with my W mother. The fact that I couldn’t see them hurt me terribly, and it showed. The next day, W told me that I could go to Christmas with them from the 24-27. <p>Last Tues., I emailed her with some mundane stuff, and mentioned that there were a couple of movies out that I’d like to see.... I asked her if she’d go to one with me. She replied that she’d like to see Harry Potter, and that we could go that night. I was elated, I didn’t expect her to agree. We went to the movie and during it, she was ringing her hands. As it was cold in the theater, I asked if she was cold. She said, “No, it’s just nerves.” I was sorry to hear that, because I thought we were doing OK with just being normal. After the movie, I told her that I was sorry that she was uncomfortable, and she said it was OK, and it was even getting better. Well, I was pretty much on about cloud 7.5 with that statement. I truly hoped that we’d be able to spend some quality time together without the terrible tension between us. I had gotten her a rose, and asked if I could hug her. She was a little uncomfortable with it, but accepted it. It feels so good to hold her, but I don’t want to make her uncomfortable. My hope is that she’d get used to it, and even begin to enjoy it a fraction of what I do. All I want to do is be safe for her.<p>Later, she went out and began to read all of my earlier posts. She read the letter and was touched. A couple of days later, she came over to get some craft supplies. I expected her to just leave right after getting them, but instead, she sat down. I asked her what was up and she just started to cry. She told me that she’s VERY CONFUSED. She told me that she’d read my letter and that she wished that that husband had been around for the last year...... ME TOO! Here's the letter.<p>We talked some and she expressed her fears: She’s afraid of being hurt again by me. She’s afraid of losing OM. She’s afraid of having to work as hard as it’ll take to rebuild our M. I understand her fears, and have some of them as well. I don’t want to open myself back up to her just to be destroyed again, I don’t know if I’d be strong enough to handle it again (probably, but I just don’t know).<p>I’m trying to learn how to communicate with the Venusians. I tried not to “fix” everything, but just be there for her, and empathize. I REALLY DO empathize, but I SOOOOO want to fix everything too.<p>She told me that she’s just not ready to make a choice, but that she thought she really should spend time with me doing “normal” things (actually, she’s since said doing normal things with both me and OM). I told her that I understand, and don’t want to pressure her. I told her that I DO hope she chooses me, but that I can’t make that decision for her. I said that I CAN wait for her, I don’t know how long, but probably at least a couple of months. I don’t want to make any demands or ultimatums, but she does understand that I simply can’t wait forever.
Well, she left after telling me that she didn’t want to hug me, I replied that I’m not asking.<p>A couple of days later, she called me and actually asked ME to church. She’s been back to our church only once since D-Day, and her parents pretty much bullied her into that. She’s been VERY hesitant to go back, and I understand. I was pretty much dumbfounded, but GLADLY accepted. We went to church and then came back home to pick up a couple of things before going back to her girlfriend’s house to shampoo the carpets. <p>Just before we left, I thanked her for today, and that I REALLY appreciate her efforts. Well, she started crying again. She says she’s STILL CONFUSED, and trying REALLY hard. I appreciate that, and told her that I’m sorry that she feels this badly. She said that I shouldn’t be sorry because she brought it all on herself. I explained that I have (in my mind) a majority of the fault for out marriage being bad for the last four years and I’m taking responsibility for that. I told her that I’m going to allow her to shoulder 100% of the burden for her choices, but that I feel VERY responsible for the state of the M leading up to those choices. I tried as best as I can to be there and comfort her. I held her hand and stroked her face. I kissed her hand and told her I love her.<p>We have a date this Thu. for hockey, and an open house beforehand. And we’re driving down to her parents’ house together for Christmas. She suggested that maybe we can actually go over the questionnaires during the three hour drive.
I’m SOOOOOO thankful for this chance that I’ve been given. The consistency that she’s looking for is going to be EASY for me to show, because the things that I’m changing about myself and my behavior are things that I TRULY want for me, FOR LIFE. I hope that they’re enough for her, I believe that they CAN be. My hope is that the more time she spends with me, the easier she’ll find it to be around me. <p>I can’t even tell you how encouraged I am looking back at the change in her attitude just over the last 2-3 weeks. I only hope that trend continues. I know that she’s now sitting on the fence, but that’s so much better than the running away from the fence that she WAS doing. I only hope and pray that we don’t fall back into that, I know it’s possible. But I’m going to do everything that I can to be supportive of, and safe for her.<p>I thank God daily for you people. Without you, I don’t have any idea WHAT I would have done. W is thankful that I have you too. She said that she’s not going to read any more out here, unless I ask her, but I told her that she should continue to read. If she’s not comfortable with posting, that’s fine, but to remember that all of us out here KNOW what this feels like. Some of the people out here can give advice that is SO MUCH better than any that either of our friends and families can give. I told her that there are people on all sides out here, but mostly BS. That she SHOULD take some of the rantings and advice with a grain of salt, but that’s true with anyone.<p>Thank you,
Kevin<p>P.S. I know that I'm going to have lasting trust issues. I'm having one right now. I called her girlfriend's place at around 8:30 this evening to get some info from W. She wasn't there, out at the store, or school, or someplace. It's the someplace that bothers me. GF said she'd give W my message, and I rang her on her cell. If she has it with her, she'll know that I called. But it's not 10 and no call back. She wouldn't be out this late on a school night, and so I have THAT feeling all over again. I know that I should let it drop, and probably shouldn't even write about it here because she may read it. But I imagine it'll be a smaller LB to read it than see me sneaking around or for me to blow up and confront her about it. I know that ultimately, it makes little difference where she sleeps tonight, she can't very well do anything MORE. It's just one more TIME that I'd have to forgive. Damnit, and I felt pretty good, too.<p>K<p>[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

kevco-,
It is a huge progress. I have to remind you to unplug one of your battery, keep your cool. As you know we are all riding roller 'coaster of our life ... BS & WS !. No human could ride this 'coaster forever, one of us will have to stop them. BS with plan B or WS with willingness to stop A and work on M (rarely with Dv unless BS LB'ed). You see, the more confused the WS is the better ... meaning you are doing great on your plan A. The faster the ride (WS in and out of fog in matter of hours) the better it is. Just hang in there; your WS might end this ride. WS wants to bring you around and get others to evaluate you ... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] be at your best behavior and show your changes to everyone too.<p>Christmast comes early for you kev [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>P.S ... you have come a long way man, you have reached "letting go". Don't window shooping now [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , go to bed early.<p>[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Kevin,<p> It is good to see you taking responsibility for your actions or lack there of in the last 4 years of your marriage. You are making great strides in ammending those qualities.<p> Continue to work through your issues. Be the best man you can be. Not just for your wife but for you. <p> I am praying for you and your wife. You seem to be a really decent person. <p> jd

W just called. I got the info that I needed, and hinted that I'd like to know where she's been. She was at OM house, watching TV.... says he wasn't even there most of the time.<p>I can hear the pain in her voice (she's been physically ill over it). I wish to God there were something that I could do to take that pain away. I know that there's not, and that I can't even try. I told her that I am here for her. I told her that if she needs to get away, to be alone, that she should feel free to come here- this IS her home after all. I told her that if she needed to be alone, I'd leave.<p>I just wish there were some magic word, ANYTHING I could do to ease her pain. I told her that even though I may not be able to fully UNDERSTAND her turmoil, I AM here for her, and I DO feel badly for her.<p>What else can I do? I love her more than ANYTHING, more than I COULD love anything.<p>Kev<p>[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

kevco-,<p>The time is very close to the end ... hang in there, be very very careful and patience, one oopsh could throw away all your efforts .... I have to bring my WW once to emergency room from the A tortured ... nothing we could do but hang in there.

Wow, it has been a long time since I have posted here, but some things that you said really hit home with me and what I am going through with my WH. <p>I am also the type of person that wants to fix everything. But it is very important to remember that you can not fix what your WW did or the things that are wrong in her life. You can only fix what you have done and the things that are wrong with you. It seems that you have already worked really hard on that and made a lot of progress. The hardest thing for us sometines is to realize that we can not fix things for the WS. Think about how much stronger you are because you dealt with things in your life that needed fixing. That is what your WS needs. She needs to get over her hurdles on her own and become a stronger person. When she comes back to you, you deserve a strong person and the only way for her to get there is to make things right on her own. <p>I like to look at is as the WS is in a hole. They dig the hole with the help of the OP who is the shovel. They fall into a hole and as long as they hold on to the OP (shovel) they get in deeper and deeper. We are the ladders. We are there for the WS, we want to help the WS, but they have to make the decision to let go of the shovel and grab ahold of the ladder. But if they do, they climb out a stronger more stable person. That is we want. That is why we are here reading, posting lurking.<p>I have taken a new approach with my WH. I do not mention the OP, the marriage, anything negative from the past. We do fun things together. I make him laugh (even when I am not trying), we go to movies, we go out to eat, he even invited me to his apartment last night (his roomate and his girlfriend were there). Currently we are working on refininshing the hardwood floors at our house (which I am moving back into within the next few weeks). I just try to keep it light and fun. If she is on the fence, don't shake it she may fall back to the other side. Keep the fence steady for her. <p>As for where she was when you called, let it go. You know that there is an OP. You know that he is still in the picture. You do not have to forgive her everytime she is with the OP, you have to forgive her for the A. If you decide to forgive (which I think you have) you forgive the A, not each instance they are together. I know how hard it is. Last night at my WH's apartment I saw some of the OW's items in the bathroom. I wanted to throw them at him on my way out the door. But I stopped, I took a deep breath and I said nothing. When he is ready to make the move to get rid of her he will. Until then if I let him know that I am bothered by these things I give the OP more power. Let her be bothered by me spending all day with him and being in his apartment. Shampoo and conditioner can be thrown out, I don't disappear quite that easily.<p>Hang in there and be a safe place for her during the holidays.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>
I don’t really recall all the details of the talk, but basically, W said she doesn’t want to continue with Steve because she thinks both Steve and I will construe any further sessions as a commitment to the M.</strong><hr></blockquote>
AH yes...I remember this one! She is so afraid of herself and the "power" that she knows she has!
Kev, I read this last night and e-mailed WLD this story to work, asking him to find time to post to you today. Your story is just SO similar to ours!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] My heart goes out to you both and I think of you two often throughout my day. <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>In my session with him, Steve told me something of which I’m well aware.... That W is having a difficult time with trusting that I AM making permanent changes. </strong><hr></blockquote>
It took me MONTHS to admit to myself that Bill was changing. I had wanted him to meet my EN for so long and had such a hard time communicating them to him, that when he did start doing those things, I had a wall of bitterness built up. I kept telling myself, well isn't that nice, but TOO LATE! But he just kept right on doing all those wonderful things. He was doing it for HIMSELF, and I knew it. He was reading Dr Phil's book "Relationship Rescue". Part of the beginning of this book says something to the effect of...Let's face it you think you are here to fix your relationship. But who's the one reading this book?!? We are here to fix YOU!...I saw Bill reading and actually spending time on a journal. He would do that instead of watch TV or get on the computer. He did it for weeks, and yet I was still "blind" to the changes he was making. Because I was SCARED to trust again. I wanted it for so long, that when I saw it was happening, I was in denial. Doesn't make sense, huh? You have thought that I'd be jumping around and doing cartwheels. <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>She said, “No, it’s just nerves.” I was sorry to hear that, because I thought we were doing OK with just being normal. After the movie, I told her that I was sorry that she was uncomfortable, and she said it was OK, and it was even getting better.</strong><hr></blockquote>
SEE?!? Nerves aren't always bad! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>I asked her what was up and she just started to cry. She told me that she’s VERY CONFUSED. She told me that she’d read my letter and that she wished that that husband had been around for the last year...... ME TOO! </strong><hr></blockquote>
My heart aches at this point!! I know EXACTLY what she is feeling. She still loves you Kevin, and she is just trying to figure out how to let herself love HER again. It is a scary road, just keep being there for her. She'll see those changes...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>We talked some and she expressed her fears: She’s afraid of being hurt again by me. She’s afraid of losing OM. She’s afraid of having to work as hard as it’ll take to rebuild our M. I understand her fears, and have some of them as well. I don’t want to open myself back up to her just to be destroyed again, I don’t know if I’d be strong enough to handle it again (probably, but I just don’t know).</strong><hr></blockquote><p>YOU WILL HAVE THE STRENGTH!! I can see it in your postings! Time will heal both of you, she will see that it is easy to love you. It may be sudden, or it may take months. But if you continue to treat her the way you are, she will see. Stay strong!!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>She said that I shouldn’t be sorry because she brought it all on herself. I explained that I have (in my mind) a majority of the fault for out marriage being bad for the last four years and I’m taking responsibility for that. I told her that I’m going to allow her to shoulder 100% of the burden for her choices, but that I feel VERY responsible for the state of the M leading up to those choices. I tried as best as I can to be there and comfort her. I held her hand and stroked her face. I kissed her hand and told her I love her.</strong><hr></blockquote>
KUDOS Kev!! This is GREAT Plan A'ing!!! That was the best thing you could have done!<p>
ok, I feel like I am jumping all over now. I hope I am making sense, I am trying to be support for BOTH of you and my mind is racing. Having a hard time keeping up.<p> Jill if you read this, know please that I really do understand what you are feeling. Just take one day at a time and listen to your HEART. It will guide you and it will also TAKE CARE OF YOU. Your pain and fears will go away and you will feel so strong after you have come through this. PLEASE reach out to some of us who have been through this. I will answer any questions you pose to me. We are only here to help ourselves and others in the process.
I have to get to work now...I'll be back later. Have a good day!

Kev,<p>What an ENCOURAGING post!!!! Really, things are looking up for you and your W. Keep up the great work. In my heart,k I truly feel you two have what it takes to reconcile and be truly happy. Your W needs and wants more time. As you continue to demonstrate yurself to be the kind of H she has wanted all along, you only make it that much easier for her to choose you. What can be more attractive to a woman than a man who stands by her side through thick and thin! Gosh knows these are some of the toughest times you can ever face, too. You are doing a super job and have a super attitude. I truly believe your W will continue to come around and eventually back to you.<p>Praying for your family, Desiree

Here is an Holiday Wish that your get everything you want and next year is the best ever.<p>just don't expect too much from christmas,
don't push your W, if she wants to bring up topics let her, but you don't, don't ask where, what she is doing or been doing when she is not with you. know that she will call the OM but remember you are there he is NOT<p>ENJOY, ENJOY, ENJOY

Kevco,<p>Wow, you are doing great. I have been so impressed with the progress you have made. You have been an inspiration to me in my journey through this nightmare. I feel I am finally starting to catch up and catch on to what all this Plan A and working on yourself is all about, and I just want to say Thank You. Watching you improve (and maybe heal a little bit) has been enlightning for me. <p>Hang in there.
Needing

[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
You are doing beautifully!! Keep it up!<p>Praying for you and Jill.<p>MOM

Way to go Kevco--sounds great. I've admired the patience that some of you have with regard to not LB'ing by mentioning the OW--I'm working on that.<p>Merry X-mas, early!<p>Guido [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Kev,
Thanks for the update!
It does indeed sound very encouraging.
Even though you & My's situation are somewhat different, when I read your Post I see a lot of similarities between my DW & your DW.
I have not kept up to date of all of your plans, and there is a lot of support for you to keep doing what your're doing & your're doing well.
I would just add a perspective that it seems she is still connected to OM, although having second thoughts. I would caution you to careful with your hopes & perhpas threy to throttle down your optimism just a bite.
I know in my case with my DW, when I step back & reflect over the years, I can now realize that my DW has gradually changed & that she is different & that she has lots of issues that make her a sick person.
Your support & comfort I am sure is very helpful to your DW, whom I believe in a sense has an illnes of sorts. This does not make her a bad person, it's not an issue of morals, as much as an issue of different influences, chemicals (who knows for sure), that makes them vulnerable to acting out in ways that are not normal in a sense.
You're Hangin in real good, keep up the work!
God Bless you & yours!
HH<p>[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

Kev, this is a dup. of my reply to your reply in my thread. I just didn't want you to miss it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>That's something that both my wife and I have been struggling with.... "It's just too much", "too much has happened", "I can't forgive it all", etc...<hr></blockquote><p>I'm on the "I can't forgive..." part. Like I said up on the first post of this thread, YOU PROMISED YOU WOULD! I know what you meant by that and I don't mean to sound so...so...well, I don' know...forceful. But what is "marriage" if it's not loving her no matter what, loving him no matter what. No, I'm not talking about love. I'm not talking about the awesome visceral love-at-first-sight love. I'm talking about a decision. That's it, that's all. A decision to be true to yourself, true to your spouse, true to your marriage vows. Sure it's hard! But you made a vow, and it wasn't for nothing. The reward for working this out is phenomenal!!! Think of the example you guys will be for your friends and family 6 months, 6 years after you get back together. THEY WILL LOOK AT YOU WITH AWE EVERYDAY. You made it!!! "Damn they're strong!" they'll say. What a great and awesome couple! They didn't just quit, even when it seemed impossible, they made it work…and look at them now!<p>Kev, the truth is, this may not work out, but no matter what happens, you're going to go on in your life knowing you did what you could in the end. You haven't done all you could through the last year, few years, whatever. But, that's OK. Not good, but OK. YOU'RE HUMAN. Be pissed at yourself, feel dumb, kick yourself once or twice. Finished? Good! That's over now. Now you're reading, you're learning, you're improving yourself. You can't change the past. But the present is yours baby! And you've got it by the balls! That's huge. 80% of the morons in this world would, if in your shoes, blame her, stay stupid and screw up several other people's lives. The bad news is…you're going to do it again. Maybe not the same mistakes, or maybe not to the same degree, but I'm back to that whole human factor. That's what she's so scared of. She's got good reason to be scared, she didn't marry Jesus. This is going to turn around for her only if and when she realized that He's not up for grabs, when she realizes that she's in a dating world filled with 80 percenters. Yup. When she got you, she got one of those rare 20% people, who do screw up, but who are always able to get their butts off the ground when the sh*t really hits the fan.<p>Jill, he's not perfect and he never will be. But look at what he's done for you. More than that, think about what he's done for himself. You may get lucky and find someone else in that 20% bracket, but even if you do, you'll be starting over with someone who has no idea what an EN is. He's doing his homework. He'll slip again, you can bet on it. But the tools are there to fix it just that much faster. And the history you two share does matter. I know you're confused, but think…just think…if he wasn't worth it, you wouldn't be confused at all. This would be a snap for you. "What an a**hole!! I'm outta here!" But it's not that easy for you because you're talking about your husband here. And a husband who's done some great stuff lately. Don't let someone else get the benefit of your grief. You're confused. OK, be confused, but get it together soon. What you're going through is, well, I don't honestly know, because I haven't been there, but there's no doubt in my mind that's it's really, really tough. But what he's going through is absolute hell. And there I have been.<p>God bless both of you. Please, please let us know if we can help.<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: wld ]</p>

Kev, I added a bit onto my story thread. Just wanted to be sure you got to it. Do you feel better about yourself? Have you made these changes for you? She'll see that...