Last night I threw in the towel and asked my former WW for a divorce. Jan 9th 2000 was d-day and after 2 years she still has no real commitment to our marriage, no remorse, no feelings. She still works with the OM although I think the PA is over maybe even the EA, but it&#8217;s hard to tell since she doesn't talk to me about anything relating to us, our marriage or what we can do better. She would just as soon pretend it never happened even though she still holds on to several of the hurtful behaviors that surfaced during the EMA time period. <p>
The last six weeks have been much too weird for the thin skin I wear today. She went to the company Xmas party (out of town) and specifically did not want me there. This was the night of our anniversary. The business circumstances would have allowed me to attend if she had wanted. Prior to the trip I had asked her when she was going to stop letting her EMA rule our relationship. She gave me the standard, It's not, and you're just imagining it. I told her that I can not live another year like this and next year had to be better, implying that we would either start to work it out or I'm gone. She was gone for a week during this trip and mostly stuck to her normal ignoring me & kids while gone. This means only talking to the kids (4&6) when I chase her down, and only calling me after midnight when the conversation can be "I'm tried and going to bed". I used to stay up and wait for her calls, sometimes till 3 am, sometimes it would never happen. This trip I just went to bed at 11 PM and shut my cell off. Normally if I call her early in the evening, she'll give me the I'm real/too busy routine. So I just quit chasing her. <p>I had given her my ring 1.5 years ago and told her when she wanted a husband again that she could give it back to me. Well she returned from the trip a day after our anniversary and out of the blue gave me my wedding ring back with a mushy "love you" card. I read the card, and looked at her and asked what's going on since she had said nothing else. 5 minutes passed before she said, "I don't know, what do you mean?" I told her with the many times she had wanted to get divorced or said she didn&#8217;t want to work on our marriage that I had thought something must have changed and was curious what that was. Still no answer. I just gave her the ring back and told her I would like to talk about this later. Two days later I bring it up again and tell her as many times as she has told me she wanted to reconcile and was only saying it to get me to shut up/or leave her alone, that I was having a hard time believing that this was really an attempt on her part. Also that false reconciliation's, where I would put my heart on the table to have her act callus and uncaring were too painful to repeat again. So I figured that someone who had a change of heart would likely have something of substance to say. She could only come up with the fact that at the Xmas party she had to confront and see the OM's wife for the 1st time, something she was completely scared of. And that she felt so good about herself when everyone there told her how great she looked. I thought there must be something deeper, she never been a shallow person. She started getting upset at my inquiry saying she didn&#8217;t know anything else and she had already answered the question. I said good enough, tell me what you plan to do different that will make this attempt at reconciliation different. Standard "I don&#8217;t know, I just want to try now" I just let it go at that to see what the next few day/week were going to bring.<p>3 days following (the talk) we were in bed at night and she was lying on top of me kissing me. Then she pulled back and I asked her what was wrong. She told me she didn&#8217;t like something I was doing when I was kissing her. I said OK, I didn&#8217;t realize I was doing that and I'll try not to. I put my arms back around her, without saying another word and she then said, "when you kiss me like that, it reminds me of my father" WOW&#8230;.If I was standing my jaw would have hit the floor. I just looked at her and after a minute or two, the only thing I could say was that was really weird to say that here and now. I was at a loss and felt completely rejected. Needless to say, the night was over. The next day I spoke to her about it. I asked her if she had just wanted me to stop, her (no). Told her how much that had hurt me, Her (didn&#8217;t mean it that way). She the quoted me on the open and honesty thing saying you wanted me to tell you how I was feeling. I said yes but could the father part have waited till the next day? Her, "I don't know, what's wrong with what I did?" I said that I thought likening the person in your arms to someone else was kinda a universal "Relationship 101" type of no-no thing. She continued to look at me dumbfounded and couldn&#8217;t see anything wrong with it. Rather the argue my point I just told her that the conversation reminds me of those pre-d-day conversations and the example I used was. She used to tell me (when I questioned) that the OM (just friends) and her would hold hands and dance when they traveled together and since they were just friends it was no big deal. During those conversations she would act like what she was doing was no big deal and saw nothing wrong with it. I would ask her "did she think that doing those types of things was becoming of a married woman?" and she would defend the position, as it's all OK. <p>Oh well I've rambled enough for now. I'm just totally weirded out, tried of the game, she wins, and I have no spine to stand up to this anymore. Next year will be a better one for me, I just feel very bad for my children. I keep reminding myself what they tell you before takeoff in a plane, "should the cabin depressurize place the mask over your mouth first and then over your children's."<p>Does anyone here think I'm looking for too much in a marriage or reconciliation. What would you have thought about this weirdness? <p>Thank you in advance,
HI<p>[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: Hi Infidelity ]</p>

HF,<p>What did your W say or do in response to your announcement? I can see that she has been pretty miserable W. I can also see that seeing OM with his W may have finally put the cap on the A in her mind and that is why the ring was returned to you.<p>However, the real test is her reaction to your decision. How did she react?<p>JL

Your wife is unbelievable. She would rather go to a XMAS party out of town where the OM is and not have you come and it is on the same day as your anniversary? Clearly she has made her choice. She sounds so selfish and unremorseful. I would have left her on your anniversary night. Make sure you get a good lawyer. Your life in the future will get better and down the line you will meet a woman who will love and respect you and the concept of a marriage. I wish you luck.

When someone has a heartfelt change of attitude, you will know; it will be obvious. It doesn't sound like you are getting that. What you need here is a large-scale attitude change. What you have been doing isn't working. Perhaps you need to change your tactics.<p>You say you won't go through another year like the previous one. Is she seeing that as an empty threat? <p>If my W went to an office party that I wasn't invited to where the OM would be, that would be a line that I wouldn't tolerate crossing. My advice, which should be taken with many grains of salt is that it is time to go for a legal separation. Move on down the line and hopefully she wakes up to what she is losing.<p>Good luck.

she went to the christmas party to see if the om would choose her or his wife.

This turned my stomach into a whirling mess...<p>While my ex and I were *trying to work it out* he spent New Years Eve, 2000 (the TURN OF THE CENTURY-- pretty important, I thought!) with the OW.<p>Love being second in line (or further down the list, like I was, behind OW, work, blah, blah, blah)... Sheesh!<p>I'm sorry for your pain, and remember how it feels.

JL - About the only thing she had to say was to please not bring any dates into our home. I told her I wasn't seeing anyone and had no plans to. She inquired about living arrangements, and I told her I just didn&#8217;t care and that I was too tired of debating societies norms with her. She was leaving town at 6 am this morning so I added that I would be more than happy to hear anything she wanted to say when she returned. Then I left to go watch Monday night football. <p>During the divorce discussion I told her I still cared for her but that's what makes her callus and uncaring ways even more painful.<p>Bryanp - I'm with you on her being selfish and un-remorseful, although I do have to admit I see myself as becoming very selfish and self centered. Some days, I could easily stand in the center of a crowed room and wish the entire room revolved around me. I have the same thoughts that someday I will find someone worthy of my love. <p>SPT_FL - I agree with the attitude change, but only for me and my benefit not to manipulate her or her actions. I do truly believe one day she will wake up and wish she had me in her life, I held out this long with that belief in mind. Unfortunately I do not think that will happen in a time span that I can live with without causing me any further damage personally. I have become the overly serious, analytical, what's coming next kinda person at home and that's so far from my regular persona. It's just after many months of neglect, and uncaring behavior, I just can't paint my plan A smile on anymore. Yesterday, she wanted me to go shopping with her and have a fun day. Started our with mermosa (SP) in the morning and we were to head off to the mall to get the kids their Xmas gifts. I couldn&#8217;t do it, and I used to love Xmas shopping. Over the past 2 years I've had several of these "let's just go have fun together today" days. I'll find myself getting attached, but the underlying foundations of being in a caring and trusting relationship are still missing. So as I get a bit attached and something callus or uncaring is handed my way, I'll bring it up in a MB way. Normally she'll argue that I'm over sensitive and nothing she did was wrong and then whamo spiked heel in the heart again. Even yesterday afternoon, I asked her what has she done to try to rebuild trust and faith in our marriage.. After 20 minutes she said she was thinking about it. <p>As far as separations go. It might work for some, but I tend to think it&#8217;s a fool's game for me. It has so many fuzzy boundaries. Are you still married, not married, what's acceptable, what's not? Then somewhere at the end of it all you have to do more legal work to finish the D or put things back together again. I've lived in limbo a long time. Separation would seem to be a new dimension to limbo land for me. I look at it this way, should we ever decide to get back together (which I don&#8217;t see) then we can always get married again. <p>BTW - your does your ID Spt_fl imply Saint Petersburg FL?<p>
S-N-L
She did tell me that the OM stuck by his wife like glue all night and that they stayed on the other side of the room whenever possible. You might have a point here. I just tended to believe her that the OM was not part of the picture anymore. Supposable the PA been over for 1.5 years now. Probably my mistake.<p>
NB- My stomach is I knots too. I'm not exactly sure why. I know it will get better, but still in knots.

HiF - I suggest that when she comes back you have a separation scheme all worked out that includes her moving out. Propose a split of liquid assets and debts. Offer a visitation schedule for the kids. Consider consulting an attorney on all this to be sure it's within the laws of your location including appropriate child support.<p>Simply put, take your stand. Unfortunately, you probably can't make her move out, but by taking a step in this direction she should see you're serious. If she agrees, you should go immediately to Plan B.<p>Any reason NOT to do this?

Yes, St Petersburg, FL. I live in Tampa, though.<p>BTW, I agree about the divorce/separation thing. I ease into things sometimes, but personally, I would try to prove as much as possible. When it is lawyer time, get a vicious shark. Defend yourself.

HiFi,<p>It would appear that even though the PA has been over for some time, her emotional attachment hasn't yet passed.... even though OM may not be actively participating. I have to say that I totally agree with SNL. The way I read it (and I'm obviously getting only one side), is that she's been stringing you along until she can be SURE of what her and OM decisions are. It appears that OM has made that decision (provided of course, that she's telling the truth about the trip).<p>About her reaction to your rebuff on her attempt at honesty. True, when being radically honest, we have to take the other person's feelings into account and try not to be cruel or LB. But that's not always possible, or adviseable. Frankly, I think she basically did the right thing. She told you when something you were doing was making her uncomfortable. Would you have had her not say anything, let you continue to make her uncomfortable, and not find any enjoyment in what the two of you were doing???? This CAN lead to aversions. Maybe she didn't say it in just the right way, maybe your skin WAS too thin. But at least give her credit for TRYING.<p>I don't remember your whole story, but have you ever implemented a Plan B? I understand your views on legal (or otherwise) separation, but if you were to talk to Steve, he'd tell you that MOST of the time, Plan B is what it takes to turn WS around. A legal separation might just accomplish that, and it might give you a chance to recharge your batteries and to begin to heal a little.....to figure out what it is that you REALLY want.<p>Prayers your way,
Kevin

And, see, I'm not even sure I believe the PA is over...why would she have to 'hide' from the OM and his W? <p>I cannot fathom her spending your anniversary at a xmas party with OM then coming home and saying she wants to work it out. I think she's so far into the fog, she can't hear the horn.<p>And, oh, yes, she will want you someday but by then, will it be too late? If it isn't now.

I agree with Spt_fl, when someone had a heartfelt change, you will know. Her actions have to back up her words. What is she willing to do in order to help you rebuild your trust in her? If the answer is nothing, then you know exactly where you stand and you can move onto the next step with a clear concience. You did your best, gave it your all.<p>Needing

HiFi,<p>I guess my take on this is the following. I would do what WAT suggested. Get the legal details sorted out in your mind, and check with a lawyer. If she shows any inclination to work on this, I would print out this thread and let her read it or at least your visualization of the current marriage and your reactions to the past few days (weeks?).<p>I think you can Plan B while getting ready to divorce, but I also agree with you that a separation is unlikely to do anything but prolong things after two years of dealing with this.<p>However, I must tell you that I am a bit of an "optimist". I do think Plan B may jolt her back if indeed the affair is really over. It still may be an EA on her part. If it is not over, the Plan B would protect your love for her.<p>The problem as I see it is you should have gone to Plan B months ago before you came to the point of throwing in the towel.<p>Perhaps you will hear something from her that will give you cause to think about this. I truely hope so.<p>I would remind you though that you still have many tools in the belt. You can still go to more Plan A, you can Plan B, you can separate, and you can file for divorce. So while you now favor divorce, don't forget you have a few more arrows in the quiver.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Is it just me being freaked out by the "you kiss like my father" thing. No-one specifically mentioned that yet. I will say that I was not kissing her on the cheek/neck/forehead when she said it. H-ll maybe I am wrapped a little too tight on this one but I'd always thought that if you relate physical intimacy things to thoughts about a parent then something is seriously amiss. <p>WAT-<p> Sounds like good advice to me but I see no reason for Plan B. I'm not trying to get her back anymore and as long as I don&#8217;t try to work on us or have a future with her I'm relatively safe from being hurt. <p>Spt_fl <p> I'm looking for good counsel right now. My previous counsel had been a general practice guy from when I owned/sold my company. He's good, but not an expert at divorce. I live in South St. Pete in broadwater. If you happen to know of any good D attorneys I'd be much appreciative. I can be reached at mike_is_me@mailcity.com.<p>Kev<p>I tried to implement a plan B, 4-5 months after d-day 1-9-00. At the time I was under Steve's counsel. She wouldn&#8217;t leave, laughed at it and left town. The only way I could implement it was to leave with the kids myself and my attorney advised me that this was extremely high risk and I could have several legal actions taken against me that could cause the loss of an custodial rights. <p>I agree my skin pretty thin right now and I haven't presented a plan A person to her in well over 3 months. It just completely freaked me out to have her say I kissed like her father. Maybe a bad old boyfriend or something but her dad??? BTW-I wasn't kissing her on the cheek. Still reeling from that one.<p>As far as one-sided stories. I know I've not been a saint. After the failed plan_b she started telling me that we were done, the best she could do was be my roommate for the kids and to find someone else. After bout 3 months of hearing this, I did. Stopped it on my own after 6 weeks and have been faithful ever since. I've asked her on several occasions to come here and post her story but she's not interested. <p>Something else that might be relevant here is she has been asked to move to HQ, where the OM & wife live. She was told to make a decision by end of the year. This has been an open issue for about the last 6 weeks as well. She has covered the gamut on what she might do, who might move, would she want the kids to go, would she want me to go, would she even go. So the more I think about it she could still be playing both sides of the fence, wanting to see if she could move and still play OW. Who knows.. Speculation in what's going on doesn't hold my interest anymore, whatever the root cause is, it is causing me more grief than I can deal if I put my heart into game that still seem to be riddled with smoke and mirrors.<p>Needing
I agree about knowing real heartfelt changes. She handed me the ring like it was a set of car keys. I knew just in the delivery that something was missing. I wonder if this "working on it" is motivated by the holidays. She always seemed to be more interested in family and such over the holidays and I didn&#8217;t take her to my family's house this year for thanksgiving. The days leading up to turkey day she had been telling me how she was moving to HQ 1200 miles away and I probably wouldn&#8217;t be going with her, so I told her If that is how she felt I saw no reason to spend the holidays celebrating together, just do enough for the kids. She spent turkey day at home by herself with a sniffle, said she was too sick to go, because I had offered that morning to take her if she had any hope of having a future together. <p>DidDallas,<p>I haven&#8217;t a clue. She continually tells me that I live in the past when I mention something about a trigger or being hurt because&#8230;. But she still let's this stuff control her and how she reacts to me. The best excuse she came up with for why she didn't want me to go was she didn&#8217;t want me to make a scene. First it was a scene with the OM, which I haven't done or implied that I ever would. After that it was because she thought I would cause a scene with her. Blah..blah blah&#8230; So it seemed to me to be one of those just make an excuse any old one will be good enough. <p>JL
I realize that I might have more arrows, I've made a bunch of them over the many months. Its just dam near impossible to hit a moving target with one. I am also an optimist; it's just now that optimism is focused on a new life where I am not required to allow people who continue to hurt me to be close to me. I wish it was different, but I can&#8217;t see how she can start to be honest with me when she can&#8217;t be honest with herself.

Have you been Plan Aing for the 2 years?

SJ<p>On and off. Time line is kinda like this.<p>6/99 - PA started
8/99 - I witnessed some very unbecoming things at a company function. I worked there too at the time.
8/99 - 9/99 - kinda freaked, especially at what seemed to be blatant lies. My friends told me to chill that no way was my wife cheating. Still wife was way strange, told me she could tell me what was wrong or I would hurt her if I knew. 9/25 - I was trying to get her to get it off her chest. No avail, same old you'll hurt me. Never had any abuse issues or struck another person, but no reasoning would help. I put a chair in the far corner of the room, set my pistol on a table by the doorway and sat in the chair in the corner. Told her she had nothing to fear from me, just tell me so we can fix it. She made me move out citing I was crazy and the gun play thing. In hind site I should have given her a bat.
9/99 - 11/99 - I found MB and plan a. Still in denial about the wife's EMA. No hard proof just that feeling. Also saw an IC 6 time, he told me I was not crazy and he could do no more without her present. Since she was gone traveling for "Business" with the OM I spent most of my time at home watching the kids. About thanks giving she asked me to move back into the guestroom.
11/99 -1/9/00 - did a decent plan A. Snooped like crazy. Watched her actions like a hawk. No longer in denial. But still the LD EMA continued. Asked a few times but just lies and I'm whacked and jealous. I finally found a reason to help her fix something in her email software and found stuff like "hugs and Kisses" "missed you", hope we can do that again type emails between her and OM. I printed them and asked. Of course it was we were just kidding around. I pressed on and about a week later she admitted to an affair. Had me call his wife that night. I was way cool, held her hand told her we could work this out. <p>1/10/00 started counseling with Steve H. She didn&#8217;t participate much at all. After 4 months she was still seeing OM, still lying. Steve suggested I go to plan-b. I did and she laughed and left town. Told me she's not giving him up, get some one else. Very cruel and harsher than ever. She repeated this go find someone lese thing over and over. I gave up on MB all together. So bout 7/1/00 I did start dating. Met someone and carried on for about 6 weeks. Couldn&#8217;t live with myself and broke it off. <p>8/00 Wife comes home and tells me that it's over between her and OM. Blames me for her unhappiness about ending it. Yell screams rants. I tell her to get an attorney file and go live with the SOB and his wife. <p>8/00 - 11/00 Life sucks, she hates me and I still haven&#8217;t told her about my EMA. No moves a reconciliation. Still lives a secret life. <p>11/00 Round the holidays starts warming up. Says that she is thinking bout trying. I don&#8217;t believe her, but don&#8217;t fight it. <p>12/25 really starting to become attached to her but know that I need to tell her about my misdeeds. I fell like a total hypocrite who has thrown his honor and nobility out the door. <p>1/10/01 tell her about my EMA. Sh_t hit the fan. Back to mean and cruel. I put on my best plan a. <p>
1/11/01 to 9/01
I'm doing a great plan -a. some days are good but most are bad. She still has no remorse, tell me I deserved to be treated the way I was. Still lives a secret life while away, never admits to doing anything wrong. Just a take it or leave it attitude. <p>9/01 - I say f- plan a, it's not working, I'm looking for a new answer. I'm not mean to her, but I also start to have a zero tolerance view of the evasive, secretive and self-protecting views I'm presented with. Finally got wife on Paxil, she's been sleeping at least 12 hours a day and napping for 10 months. The peaks and valleys aren't as extreme but her values and basis for life are still whacko. <p>11/25/01- starts in the beginning of this post.

HI,
Well that summed it up for me pretty well. No argument about the towel throwing from me. Sounds like it's well justified. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Maybe it will be a relief for you to not be in limbo anymore and be able to get on living. Just a little silver lining to your dark day.