[QUOTE]Originally posted by hailey:
[QB] All I am going to say is - if this is your underlying feeling about what is going on in your lives - believe me it's coming through loud and clear to your WS!!!! Whether you verbalizing it or not - you may think your practicing not doing any "love busting" but that kink of angry and hate oozes from each and ever fiber of your being - >>><p>Yak, yak, blah, blah, blah. Typical unrepentant OP speak. Do you really think we haven't heard all of these slams verbatim before? Many of us are in successful and happy recovery from our spouses' affairs. That doesn't mean we have to sit tight and listen with smiles on our faces to someone who comes here to try to justify her involvement in an affair. It cracks me up when an OW comes here obviously for the purpose of baiting the BS and then says "See, I knew you were all angry and bitter!" lol.<p><< As for your insistance that ALL cheater re-cheat -well then just where does that leave YOU in the same boat as ME!!!! Now doesn't it.>>><p>Um, no. Not all people who cheat do it again. But people who don't fix the problems they have in one relationship and just jump ship for the next boat that comes along, tend to repeat their mistakes. Plus there is a big difference in beginning a relationship in an honest way (like most of us did) and beginning a relationship based on lies, secrets and hurting other people. One situation has a strong foundation to rebuild on when there are problems, the other is sitting on quicksand.<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: fairydust ]</p>

Um, no. Not all people who cheat do it again. But people who don't fix the problems they have in one relationship and just jump ship for the next boat that comes along, tend to repeat their mistakes. <p>
So true!<p>Thing is, you can fix the problem with the BS or you can fix it with the OP. Bottom line is that there is a problem that needs fixing. And if that problem goes unfixed (reguardless of who you end up with) it remains a problem.<p>And once it's fixed. It's fixed.<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

I can tell you what got people upset with you here. You came here to 'teach us' why our H cheated on us. You have no clue what went on in my marriage. My ex-H's and current H's OW'en also had no clue what went on in our marriage. I am afraid that we have heard it all. What you have told us here adds nothing to our understanding and knowledge of our marriage and marriages in general. Remember that your MM is probably lying to you most of the time about his marriage. Just about ever WS here will attest to the fact that they distort reality to get what they want out of the OP.<p>If you had come here asking for support for ending your affair without bashing us back, then you would get that. <p>There are other OW/OM who post here who do not get flamed as you did. Why? Because they did not come here to tell us that we are getting what we deserve and to pick a fight with us. Back off. There are some OW here who I have befriended. They are as respectful of me and I am of them. Come here and show no respect and you WILL get it back. You seem to be bitter and angry? it oozes from every word you type. And before you go back to gloryb and tell them how bitter and unloving we are remember that if a BS were to go to gloryb and post a similar one as you did they would be flamed AND the monitor would delete their posts and block them. In gloryb BS's are not welcome at all.<p>You come here and blast me as angry. You don't know me.<p>RE: What are these voices outside loves open door that make up throw off our contentment and beg for more? Don Henley - think about it you guys <p>Poetry and pretty words serve well when a person's actions have no moral spine. Honey, you can find words to support everything and anything you want to do. There are even words and web sites to support pedophiles. It does not make pedophilia right.<p>The bottom line about affairs is that they are about lying, stealing and cheating. When is anything good based on that? The end does not justify the means. The ONLY honorable way to deal with marital problems is to everything possible to save the marriage. Then and only then, when everything fails get a divorce. Only after the divorce is it acceptable to date?. Period!<p>If you stay with this man, you will find that he will treat you as he is treating his current wife. And one day he will cheat on you too? if he is not doing so already. It's human nature to repeat our bad behavior until we hit bottom an d loose everything.<p>If this man is still with his wife, there is a reason. She is not making him stay. He is there because he wants to be. Why else would he be there? Get a clue. His actions speak louder then his words. He wants you ON THE SIDE but will keep his wife.<p>RE: I know that my ex's affair didn't break up our marriage - my ex had an affair because our marriage had broken down - as much me as him <p>You are right. You're ex's affair did not break up your marriage. You both let the marriage deteriorate to the breaking point. You and he are solely responsible for that. For that reason the OP is totally of no consequence to the BS. OP's are interchangeable and often are interchanged as the WS sees fit. If you will read the stories here, a very large number of the WS have had multiple affairs. Are you telling me that the love these WS had for each of the OP's was unique and wonderful and things a life time is built on? Not hardly.<p>I've heard enough stories and have lived long enough to know the OP's side? I'm in love, love is more important then anything else in the world, and I will get what I want. But like I said?. OP's are used by WS's to make them selves feel good. They are of no consequence to the marriage therefore they are of no consequence to the BS. Get a clue about that honey. <p>Do you know that 98% of all marriages in which there is an affair recover from that affair? The affair has more to do with the marriage then with the OP. <p>I do not care to know your particular story for two reasons. The first is that your story is so trite and over told that I'm tired of hearing it. The second is that what I, and most BS's are interested in is hour WS and how the affair relates to them. We could give a rat's a$$ about the OP.<p>And if you think that is mean, look at how you talk about his wife!! You bonk her husband and then have the audacity to speak like that of her. How dear you. Why should she be anything but withdrawn from a husband who will do this to her?<p>RE: - I loved him dearly - more than anything at that time - but I let him go - I could not and would not degrade what we had by trying to make him continue to love me - I think I honored our love - <p>That is an easier approach then the approach of fixing your marriage. That is hard but well worth the effort. Did you know that most marriages are better after an affair because it is a wakeup call and the couple bonds more deeply then before and works harder on their marriage. Too bad you did not feel that your marriage was worth fighting for. But that is your choice.<p>As for "would not degrade what we had by trying to make him continue to love me". Do you think that is what we here on MB are doing? Boy did you miss the boat on that one. We, both the BS's and WS's, are giving our marriage another chance. But if the marriage goes not work the MB concept includes moving on. MB is not at all about staying in a bad, cold, empty marriage. It is about the WS and the BS becoming better people. And if they can recover their marriage, good for them. Otherwise the ones who work on themselves and their marriage using the MB concepts will be much better equipped to move on to a new relationship.<p>RE: the love "OW" and they are very happy and very well suited for each other - some of us live on a deeper level- selfishness is trying to make someone who no longer loves you - remain in a loveless/lifeless marriage
Again you obviously spoke here without knowing what MB is about. Those of us on this web site are working to build healthy marriages using the MB concepts. There is nothing in the MB concepts that even suggest that a person remain with someone who does not love them, nor to stay in a loveless/lifeless marriage. It is about rekindling the love that was once there?. And you know what? When a couple commits to using the MB concepts in their life, it works in the most incredible way.<p>RE: - as for MM doing things for BS- he's begged - I know - friends remember - she is a taker with giving nothing in return -<p>Really? He's begged? Begged what? Begged to stay home and help her with the kids? Begged her to let him bring her flowers? What?????<p>As for her 'friends'. My God I hope she realizes that those people are not her friends. Who is there to love and protect this poor woman? She deserves that you know. But instead does the entire town hold her in contempt? Yuk. Glad I don't live in your town. What a bunch of ugly people. Why don't these 'friends' tell your MM to go home and be supportive of his wife instead of partying? It does not matter if they like her or not. She is his wife, that is where he should be until he divorces her. If he does not do this then he is sleaze and has no honor. Pure and simple.<p>Look, his wife may be the coldest, meanest screw in the world. You have no idea, nor do his friends. You nor they are at home with those two 24/7. Until he solves his marriage with her, she is still his wife and the mother of his children. She is therefore deserving of respect.<p>RE: I thank you all for your sharing your side - it has been more helpful than you know - my reason - although it seems lost at this point - for posting was to allow some BS's the view that you guys seem so desperatly to want to have - that of knowing what's going on in the A -<p>You are probably the 100th OP who has come here to so educate us since I started here in March. Please don't be condescending and come here to 'teach me". I am not interested of what went on in the affair. My h's relationship with his ow'en has not thing to do with me. What I am interested in is what is going on between me and my H. We do not "desperately" want to know about your affair.<p>RE: I will most certianly make use of your side - I think you would be wise to do the same - get your heads out of the sand. and that is all that I'm going to say here.<p>Again, you have come here to teach us about our marriages. We are students of our marriage and did not solicit your help.<p>RE: will be long gone from posting with you bitter people. I must say that this has been a total eye-opener. If you would go back to the first post - we are no longer involved in a PA - oh how soon we forget and let our hatred for our spoused run rampet here. All I am going to say is - if this is your underlying feeling about what is going on in your lives - believe me it's coming through loud and clear to your WS!!!!<p>Honey, I have never been bitter or hateful to my husband. I have been nothing but loving and supportive, even after I discovered his affairs. I take your blasting here as including me as you did not single out anyone person. I have never spoken one bad word towards my husband here or anywhere else. Again, you are projecting your beliefs on to me and the other good folk here. <p>I do have a problem with people who behave in a selfish manner, hurt people in such a profound way, and then seek to justify their behavior by blaming the victim. What I find funny is that you seem to assume that everyone who posted to you is a BS. These people are OP's, WS's and BS's. Funny that they all have the same opinion is it not?<p>RE: Whether you verbalizing it or not - you may think your practicing not doing any "love busting" but that kink of angry and hate oozes from each and ever fiber of your being - They here it loud and clear - believe me!!! <p>If I am upset with you, it has nothing to do with my marriage or my H. You have nothing to do with my marriage.<p>RE: As for your insistence that ALL cheater re-cheat -well then just where does that leave YOU in the same boat as ME!!!!<p>We are not saying that ALL cheaters re-cheat. Most WS who return to and recover their marriages do not re-cheat. That is because recovery means that the couple is fixing the problems that lead to the affair. We are saying that YOUR MM seems to have an MO. From what you have said, he seems very comfortable with starting and affair and keeping it going. It's not a good sign.<p>RE: Now doesn't it. Like I said the A is over - but you guys took it and ran didn't you - re-read what I said about your resentment, hatred and anger - they hear it LOUD AND CLEAR - I know I did. the end!!!<p>And I hear your resentment, hatred and anger LOUD AND CLEAR.<p>Me thinks you came here to pick a fight with BS's because you cannot lash out at his wife. I think that you are angry because she is not moving out of the way as you did. You think that is the way the affair game is played. It is not, never has been. Go find another whipping post.

I have to state something...<p>...yes, the WS tend to distort the current contition of their relationship when they talk about it with the OP...but you all make it sound like it's ALWAYS intentional...like the WS is purposefully manipulating the situation.<p>Well...with the OM in my situation...I told him that I had given up on my relationship...that it was out of my control and that it was beyond my abilities to fix, etc, etc...but the thing is...I BELIEVED EVERY WORD THAT I WAS TELLING HIM.<p>It wasn't until I confessed the affair to my SO (thinking that I was ending things with him for good) that he FINALLY wanted to try therapy. Then and ONLY THEN did we start really looking at what we've done wrong in this relationship, and it's only since then that I've decided to stay. I FINALLY figured out that there IS hope for us, and for this relationship...<p>...my point is...unless there's some kind of effort made to show that things CAN get better...the other WS's out there may just continue to hold onto their half-informed point of view.<p>As a WS, I feel a great deal of guilt over the OP as well as my SO. I told the OP things that I eventually wasn't able to follow through on...but at the time I told him these things I really believed them to be true (that I didn't know what love was until I met him, etc etc...). The OP in my relationship was no homewrecker...he was a very good man drawn (by me) into a very bad situation. The worst part of it all is that, while I have a chance to make it right with my SO now, I'll never have that chance with the OP [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong>I have to state something...<p>...yes, the WS tend to distort the current contition of their relationship when they talk about it with the OP...but you all make it sound like it's ALWAYS intentional...like the WS is purposefully manipulating the situation.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>TTF,<p>I don't think the point is whether it is "intentional" or not, but whether the fog actually exists. And noone doubts that the WS believes what he is saying - most people DON'T purvey views that they DON'T believe, but the point is that they are DELUDED. I think you admitted to as much in your post. <p>It is very easy to become deluded when one is trying to justify wrongdoing - noone wants to believe they are wrong, hence the wild rationalizations that seem so thin and silly in the light of day when sanity returns. That being said, the motivations behind the foggy behavior does not change or justify the nature of the fog or mean that it should be taken seriously.<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</p>

But even now...I don't think of it as a fog. I simply didn't have all the information...and frankly, I didn't have the willingness from my SO to listen to me and try to fix this until my affair put the fear of H*LL into him.<p>Neither myself nor my SO had all the information until we went to therapy...does that mean that we were BOTH in a "fog"? I just don't like that analogy, I guess. I wasn't seeing things clearly...but at the time, I wasn't the only one.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zorweb:
[QB]I can tell you what got people upset with you here. You came here to 'teach us' why our H cheated on us. You have no clue what went on in my marriage. My ex-H's and current H's OW'en also had no clue what went on in our marriage. I am afraid that we have heard it all. What you have told us here adds nothing to our understanding and knowledge of our marriage and marriages in general. >>><p>Bravo on your whole post Zorweb! You hit many nails on the head. I myslef alredy got to hear about the "other side of the affair" ad nauseum from the xOW until we changed all our numbers and threatened her with legal action lol. What so many of these people who come here to "educate" us don't realize is that their stories are not unique and not special and not something we haven't heard a zillion times before. Affairs are like pizzas. Most pizza parlors only have afew things (stories) on the menu. There is a choice of toppings (details) but it's pretty much all the same thing.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong>
Neither myself nor my SO had all the information until we went to therapy...does that mean that we were BOTH in a "fog"? I just don't like that analogy, I guess. I wasn't seeing things clearly...but at the time, I wasn't the only one.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>well, maybe your SO didn't see things clearly, that doesn't change the facts. The definition of "fog" is to NOT see things clearly as you admitted above was the case.

My point was, though...that everyone talks about their WS being in the "fog"...but maybe the WS aren't the only ones? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

I have to chime in here one last time - it was you guys who attached me - I am sure that I am not the OW for your particular situation - so you generalize. You believe your situation is unique and that no matter what you do to your WS to drive - yes drive them away - I didn't say into an A - I said AWAY from you - that that is justified because you are the W - but looking at your profiles I see that I have maintained much more stable relationships than most of you even with this A - I was married 9 years 1985-1993 - the whole time one A - the last 6 months of marriage - I have been engaged 1 times - since - in a relationship that lasted 1995-2000 - NO AFFAIRS in that one folks and now with this one althought we are only in an EA as you say - so it appears that my expeience of being cheated on is 1 time in my 39 years of life and in 20+ of maintaining relationships - wish I could help you guys out on that - but like I said - bitterness is a tought pill for your WS's to swallow -

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hailey:
[QB]I have to chime in here one last time ->><p>Don't let the door hitcha!<p> <<<I am sure that I am not the OW for your particular situation - so you generalize.>>&gt<p><<You believe your situation is unique>>><p>Seems like a bit of the pot calling the kettle black here<p><<<and that no matter what you do to your WS to drive - yes drive them away - I didn't say into an A - I said AWAY from you>><p>That's right. Many of us forced out spouses into things like mid life crisis and clinical depression lol. So what do the OP do that eventually seems to drive the WS away from them and back to the BS most of the time? They must be REALLY bad!<p><<that that is justified because you are the W >><p>Huh?<p><< but looking at your profiles I see that I have maintained much more stable relationships than most of you even with this A >>><p>Well neener neener, good for you! Your track record doesn't seem all that impressive. Lots of us have only been married once, no divorces, never engaged to anyone else, never been an OP, etc.<p><<<maintaining relationships - wish I could help you guys out on that>><p>I think most of us would pass on your "advice". Being an alleged BS who later becomes an OP is a rather screwed up situation.<p><<but like I said - bitterness is a tought pill for your WS's to swallow >>><p>And OP are never bitter? BWAHAHAHA ROFL.Best laugh I've had all day!<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: fairydust ]</p>

Sorry -- still not buying it.
I think you are simply an OW here to stir up trouble.
You say you were a BS simply to "show" everyone how they should react to a spouses affair -- you were so noble and understanding.<p>That must've been some marriage if he could go have an affair and you didn't feel any of the emotions that typically go with this discovery. And now you're just happy that he found true love with his OW? nah -- I doubt it.<p>I think you fabricated the whole thing.

*snick* Oh boy, this sure is a live one we got here. *pokes it with a stick* Yep, sure is fiesty. Alrighty then, listen sister my track record is pretty much akin to yours, together ten years, no A's until the last four months of marriage. I threw in the towel first to preserve my sanity, yadda, yadda and all that and I still think you're full of ****e. Pull that pretty little head out from between those cheeks and get some air already.
Face it, you're a nasty, petty little woman who came here to poke the BS's on the board. Having fun? This how you entertain yourself when you're not shutumpin' someone else's husband? You really have to find a hobby....I hear basket weaving is a nice one for you...well you know*lowers voice*slower types.
Sorry folks, I'm in a mood today and this one is just too much. Whatta loon. Don't waste the long and elaborate explainations one her, she doesn't want to hear it.
Hey Hailey, you and MM are soulmates and he's going to leave his bitter, evil, ugly witch of a wife for you and the two of you are going to run off to a magical fairyland made of candy and own a bilion horses and a rocket-ship and live happily ever after. There is that better. Run along now dear.

*In full tilt B-mode after holiday traffic and battling a broken down server at work.*

RE: have to chime in here one last time - it was you guys who attached me -<p>Your coming here to 'teach' us is a form of attack. Your belief that you have some seminal wisdom about how people 'drive' their WS away is an attack. You give absolutely no credit to the fact that it takes two people to ruin a marriage. You assume that your MM is the victim of his terrible wife. Poor dear. <p>Because we did not tell you what you wanted to hear does not mean that we attacked you. It means we gave you our point of view. If there is something in particular that you wanted us to say, you should have told us up front. Like ..."please only respond to me if you want to hear the OP's point of view of how the BS is selfish, angry, bitter and pushing thier WS away." In the future be very clear what you want.<p> RE: I am sure that I am not the OW for your particular situation - so you generalize.<p>I know that you are not any of the OW in my case so what else can we do but generalize. You are also generalizing in your attacks of anger, etc etc. And you still do not acknowledge that many of the people who responded to you are also OP and WS. Now why would they be saying pretty much the same thing?<p>RE: You believe your situation is unique and that no matter what you do to your WS to drive - yes drive them away - I didn't say into an A - I said AWAY from you - that that is justified because you are the W - <p>No one here has said anything about bad behavior being justitifed. You are the one putting those accussations out there. MB teaches people to recognize and admit their contribution to the state of their marriage. What part of that do you not hear? Have you read the MB material. <p>What makes you so sure that in all affairs the BS is the one who is wrong? Why do you not realize that the WS is as responsible for the state of the marriage? Do you even realize that sometimes it is the WS who is pushing the BS away? Do you even recognize the duality of the situation? You seem to assume that the person who is being wronged always is the one who leaves the marriage and/or has an affair.<p>What you do no seem to realize is that in the vast majority of marraiges where there are affairs, the WS is telling their BS that they love them, that they are happy with the marriage, and that the married couple has an active sex life. Does that sound like the WS is being driven away? <p>RE: but looking at your profiles I see that I have maintained much more stable relationships than most of you even with this A - I was married 9 years 1985-1993 - the whole time one A - the last 6 months of marriage - I have been engaged 1 times - since - in a relationship that lasted 1995-2000 - NO AFFAIRS in that one folks and now with this one althought we are only in an EA as you say - so it appears that my expeience of being cheated on is 1 time in my 39 years of life and in 20+ of maintaining relationships - wish I could help you guys out on that - but like I said - bitterness is a tought pill for your WS's to swallow -<p>So here is your nana, nana boo boo. I'm better then you????<p>You are crossing the line of what is acceptable on this web site. People do not put their personal information out here for someone to use in this manner. You have no idea what has gone on in my life, my H's life or anyone else's life here. From what you are saying, it is the BS's fault that the WS cheats. You are saying that you were only cheated on once so you are better???? Get gripe. The number of time I, or anyone else was cheated on, does not reflect on us as being worthy people. It does reflect on the people (WS and OP) who did the cheating. Most of the people on this forum have only had one marriage and only been cheated on once. And most of the BS's are not bonking someone else' s spouse. What a twisted, convoluted holier then though out look you have on life.<p>Your anger and bitterness towards the MM's wife will take you far in life. I have to anger or bitterness towards my ex-H, H or their OW'en. I've worked very hard on letting that go.<p>Can you not do the same with your MM's wife? Can you let your anger and bitterness at her go? What has she ever done to you except be married to the man you are having an affair with. Yes your affair is still ongoing.<p>Look, if you think you have the answers to it all, then what are you doing here. We did not ask you to be our example or teacher. We do not want to follow in your foot steps. That is not what this web site it about. Since you are so happy and loving and yada yada yada, go live a happy life. Why are you here seeking to convince us that your way of life is right?<p>I have a very happy life with the man I love. We have worked through his problems that led to his affairs and we have found love and peace and moved on. Maybe you should do the same thing.

opps.....<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

No matter how many times you tell them they are not welcome, no matter how many times they say good bye - they keep coming back. <p>Imagine, an OW posting to give BS advise on a MarriageBuilders Board! BUT WE ARE ATTACKING HER?! Do you see how they justify in their minds how what there doing is not wrong. <p>It is the whole allure of the affair - they want what they can't have. If we welcome her here with open arms, she will get bored and leave. <p>Wow, hailey, no wonder your H left you for OW.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nduli2:
<strong>
Hey Hailey, you and MM are soulmates and he's going to leave his bitter, evil, ugly witch of a wife for you and the two of you are going to run off to a magical fairyland made of candy and own a bilion horses and a rocket-ship and live happily ever after. There is that better. Run along now dear.

</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hee hee. I take back everything I said. Hailey, you are right. BS are nothing but bitter, angry harpies who drive our sainted, innocent, do no wrong spouses away from us. The WS have no issues of their own, it's all the BS fault. OP are actually angels sent from heaven by God to relieve the WS of the horrible burden of the terrible BS. Most BS and OP end up blissfully happy together and none of the issues that appeared in the original marriage ever rear their ugly heads in the new relationship. BS should be happy that their WS has found such a blissful, perfect state of Nirvana with the OP. There, I think that's what you were looking for (besides a fight of course lol).

Nduli<p>You forgot to tell her that he is never going to cheat on her. His children will love her and abandon their lousy, cruel, witch mother to love her too.

Yuppers, and not only that but one day the ugly, wart-nose witch wife will thank her for showing her the error of her ways and then they all will run away to the magical candy fairyland and ride the pretty horses and be bestest best friends forever. I know I feel better all ready don't you? Thank you Hailey, Bless you, you wise, sage woman for showing all of us warty nosed BS's the truth, truly today I have seen the light!*throws hands up in air* I been saved! O'Lordy I been saved! *smell that? That's sarcasm...*

Hailey you may have missed my post, but I said I totally agree with what most everyone has said to you and I have NOT had troubles in my almost 9 years of marriage. I don't come on here and try to make myself look better tahn anyone either. Your last post was as close to a taunt as I have yet seen. You can't seem to see that even an emontional affair is an affair. You won't leave this ohter lady's H alone yet you expect to be patted on the back by people who have been in her shoes. What you are doing is wrong. Doesn't matter if his wife doesn't make him happy. He is still her husband. Unfortunately you can't hide behind your "BS hatred defense" with me since I am neither a BS or a WS. It's a shame you see no fault in what you are doing [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]