I guess I'll cautiously throw my two cents in here (how come there's no key for "cents"?).<p>You can tell pretty well how far people are in there own recovery by their responses. I'm not trying to upset anyone here but we are all pretty typical and follow a typical path. How fast or how far we travel depends only on each one of us individually. Someone said "don't poke a stick at a wounded animal". The comment was directed at the WS but I think it can be applied to all parties. <p>I think hailey did originally post with the intent of sharing and learning. The problem is that she poked her stick at the wounded animal (BS) without really understanding. Most of the responses come from posters that are still in a lot of pain or want to educate. Please don't think that I'm trying to chastise anyone here because I spent as much time as anyone doing these things. I can remember several exchanges with SNL and Lexxxy trying to convince them how wrong they were. I still, to this day, try to help and educate (hmmm, this post?). I've also exposed a lot of my pain. It's healthy and is part of the process of healing. I think it serves a purpose to share your feelings. It's good because you eventually do move to acceptance and learn that you really can't change anyone or their feelings. Maybe IF hailey was a BS before she never traveled far enough down the path to learn the right lessons. My own experience has been painful yet rewarding because of the lessons I've learned. <p>The thing I hope to point out is that if hailey is a "typical" (and odds are she is) OP she is at a certain point in her life also. Sure - we can all see justifications and the blindness that is obvious to us - just as she can point at us and say how bitter and angry we are. We think we have the right just as she justifies that the WS IS living with an angry uncaring person. The problem is that we were not always that way. And I can promise you that we won't always be this way unless we choose to be. I bet hailey wasn't always so blind either. I would be willing to bet that at some point she will see again but only when she's ready.<p>As for the gloryb board. I will say that I was curious and have posted there. I was initially met with the same reaction that hailey was met with here. I will say that I have met some posters that have made it through the "other side" and learned from the experience. I'm sure this won't be well recieved but those people are not that different from the BS. Their path is different but they almost always end up in pain like we do. It just happens much later. In many instances they have to go through the pain of a lost relationship and the BS never even knows about it (the relationship). I'm not saying it easier or harder because I don't know. <p>Any normal person involved in an A (no matter what role) will be exposed to pain at some time or another. If they are so selfish that they feel no pain they are the ones that are really sad. They will never know the true feeling of love that comes from giving and not taking.<p>
Gotta run,<p>who

Hailey,
If you didn't want responses, why did you post? <p>I can tell you that out of my 3500+ posts, there are maybe 40 to OP. And most of my thousands of posts were done when my H is at work or not living at home, not done at his or my kids time expense.<p>It's easy to post a response to an OW. We're here on Marriage Builders, it would be the rare (misplaced?) MBer who feels you can build up a marriage with an affair. We're looking at marital success, and if that isn't possible, personal recovery.<p>A WS also gets a lot of posts, more than a BS. There are more BS here. And then some like me, Lexxy & others who have added yet another person to the mess so we have all the issues of both WS & BS. <p>At the same time it is not easy to post to someone in the incredible pain of discovery, affair continuation, separation, and even recovery is emotionally difficult through many stages. A reply may takes a lot of heart, thought, time, prayer, consideration...while many of us just blew off a reply to you because we've already talked to the OW, or have in mind what we would say.<p>If you need to play with someone, play with someone who doesn't have a wife at home. Play nice, in other words.<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</p>

who is a wise, wise wise woman

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>who is a wise, wise wise woman</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Ummm.... thanks?<p>Is my voice that high pitched? LOL<p>
who

Who,<p>This is what I was referring to<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I'm sure this won't be well recieved but those people are not that different from the BS. Their path is different but they almost always end up in pain like we do. It just happens much later. In many instances they have to go through the pain of a lost relationship and the BS never even knows about it (the relationship). I'm not saying it easier or harder because I don't know. <p>Any normal person involved in an A (no matter what role) will be exposed to pain at some time or another.<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lor (Lor):
<strong>Hailey,<p>It's easy to post a response to an OW. We're here on Marriage Builders, it would be the rare (misplaced?) MBer who feels you can build up a marriage with an affair. We're looking at marital success, and if that isn't possible, personal recovery.<p>A WS also gets a lot of posts, more than a BS. There are more BS here. And then some like me, Lexxy & others who have added yet another person to the mess so we have all the issues of both WS & BS. <p>At the same time it is not easy to post to someone in the incredible pain of discovery, affair continuation, separation, and even recovery is emotionally difficult through many stages. A reply may takes a lot of heart, thought, time, prayer, consideration...while many of us just blew off a reply to you because we've already talked to the OW, or have in mind what we would say.<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p> Also keep in mind that many of us respond mostly to posts we can relate. For example, I have no life experience in internet porn or not getting along with WS family. Therefore I probably wouldn't respond to those posts because I don't have anything to say or advice to give. However, every single BS here has dealt with an OP and a WS. So we can ALL relate to that in some way, naturally generating more posts. Many of us have also been personally attacked and harassed by the OP in our lives and we have no desire to be "enlightened" by an unrepentant OP who comes here to inform us of how we "drove our spouse away" and imply that the WS and OP were pretty much blameless in the whole situation. Phony "concerns" for the wife and kids shine through like a beacon and fool very few. Those "concerns" are usually just wrapping paper for a big box of justifications & excuses for the affair and stabs at the BS.

Whothehellisshe<p>That was a good post. I do however have a comment.<p>You say that the BS and the OP are really very much alike in that they both feel pain. There is however a HUGE difference. It is equivalent to saying that the mugger and muggee have a lot in common because they both end up feeling badly. Well the mugger feels bad if and only if they are caught and/or did not get what they wanted. The muggee feels badly no matter what because they had their peace of mind and sometimes material goods stolen from them. The mugger had a choice in it all. The muggee did not? it was forced upon them.<p>The source and therefore the quality of that pain is very different. That is why I say that there is very little incommon between the OP and the BS. The intent, commitment and use of free will are totally different. The OP chooses to be in the affair, therefore they choose a painful path. They choose to hurt another person. The BS made none of these choices yet is forced to live with them.<p>This reminds me of my 14 year old step son. He is in a residential treatment center for a terrible crime he committed. He was lucky that he did no end up in prison till he was 21. If he messes up once, that is where he will be. When he was first arrested he kept whining to his dad and I that the d-home was terrible and that he wanted us to get him out before he was sentence to juvenile prison for years. We reminded him that he had been warned many times that he was headed down the wrong path and what the consequences were. He choose to repeatedly commit the same crime. So? He CHOOSE to be in prison and in the rehab center. So why should we have too much pity for him? Yes we support him till the cows come home. We are there to visit him every chance we get. We attend counseling sessions. I fought tooth and nail to get him into the rehab center instead of prison?. But he has to do his time that is how people earn forgiveness and repentance. He desperately needs the help they are giving him in the hospital. Yes he is in a lot of pain? but it was pain of his own choosing He was well aware of the consequences. His victims on the other hand had no choice in the pain they feel and it will be with them for the rest of their lives. I feel for their pain. For him?? I help him with his recovery.

Hell, even one of our own creation, is still hell.<p>Ideally, people learn from their hell reguardless of how they got there. That is the defination fo transmuted karma.<p>A fat guy has a heart attack. Do you look at him and say "well you should not have eaten so much! Hell is hell is hell.

Katie,<p>I was just letting you know I'm really the enemy (a man). [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But since you brought this up:<p>------------<p>"Who,
This is what I was referring to<p>
quote:<p>I'm sure this won't be well recieved but those people are not that different from the BS. Their path is different but they almost always end up in pain like we do. It just happens much later. In many instances they have to go through the pain of a lost relationship and the BS never even knows about it (the relationship). I'm not saying it easier or harder because I don't know. <p>Any normal person involved in an A (no matter what role) will be exposed to pain at some time or another."<p>--------------<p>How come you left out this part?<p>
Any normal person involved in an A (no matter what role) will be exposed to pain at some time or another. If they are so selfish that they feel no pain they are the ones that are really sad. They will never know the true feeling of love that comes from giving and not taking.<p>
Damn, there goes that "educating" thing again. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
who<p>BTW hailey, my name is probably a pretty good statement about the phases that a BS goes through. I picked it out when I carried a TON of anger and resentment. It doesn't really reflect where I'm at now. At that point in my recovery (6 months ago and 6 months after DDay) I wouldn't have even dreamed about understanding the WS's let alone the OP's point of view or pain.

who,<p>oops! I edited to agressively. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I like that part to. <p>And it's SOOOO true!

Hailey:<p>Despite my previous choice comments and general agreement with most of the posts made to you, I do have a clear sense that you want to do what is right. In a sense, I think you are fence-sitting with your own morals and emotions. You realize that probably nothing good will come of your A with MM (whether EA or PA), but you are still trying to justify (perhaps to ease some of your own guilt) why you had PA and continue with EA.<p>I suspect you are lonely for affection and conversation, and your MM fulfills some of these needs for you. I know it's hard, but try to see what you are caught up in. You are vilifying the W as justification for your continuing A. Even if his W is as bad as he says, is this really any reason to justify your A with a MM?<p>Most of the good people here have been betrayed and lied to, and subjected to a situation that makes their worst nightmares a reality. The pain for the WS can be excruciating and continually present. Most of us have gone through countless sleepless nights in the realization that we have been betrayed and that our lives as an intact family may never recover. Compared to this, your pain, although real, cannot be nearly as devastating, especially when children are involved. <p>Look at your own posts, you are saying you know even the continued EA isn't right and that you don't think you have any concrete interest in marrying the MM. If you will not end the EA for the sake of the MM's family, do it for your own sake and self-respect.

Scarlet,<p>Yes, hell, even of one's own creation is still hell. But I have very little sympathy for the pain people experience in the hell they purposely created for themselves. And when they created that hell at the expense of someone else.. my sympathy gets even thinner. Just as I lovingly support my step son in his recovery, I would support anyone recovering from a painful situation. But I have no sympathy for that pain they feel.<p>Your analogy of the 'fat guy' and his heart attack is trivializing the dynamics of an affair. The 'fat guy' did not purposely steal from and hurt another person to get that way. He hurt himself yes?.. but he was not purposely playing with the lives of others.

zorweb,<p>Excellent comments. I know we have not posted to each other but I have always enjoyed your comments to other posters. You have always commented and displayed yourself as a intellegent, educated person.<p>I can't comment on how severe the pain is for the OP. I simply don't know to measure it. I will say that I can't imagine that it is as bad as the BS. I do know that by embracing the pain and the lessons that come from it real growth takes place. That pain needs to be released at some point though or it can become consuming. I fell into this trap myself.<p>You are right that it is a much different kind of pain and the BS choices are taken away. For myself, and I think you agree, that is the most painful part. I had my choices taken away by the secrecy of the A. 2 other people are basically telling me I'm not important enough to make my own choices in my life. <p>I know I may be showing too much understanding towards the OP but for me it is about letting go of the resentments. I hate how I allowed this situation and 2 people that I now know I have absolutely no control over to control my life. <p>Again, you have posted very valid points and I am in agreement with you. Maybe I led you to believe that I believed everyone will see the light and make changes. We both know that's not true and maybe I do have to much belief that most people will see the light when in fact it is a much smaller percentage. <p>
who

Z,
Sure he stole. He stole himself from his family, and loved ones.<p>I get what you're saying though.<p>In all healing I think there comes a time to say "I am the victim/villan" and the focus goes on that point. Then there comes a time to say "i'm in hell, how do I deal with it."<p>To use your step son as an example. Once he acknowledges where he is (or what he is) then should not the focus turn to, what is there to learn from this. That is certainly not to trivialize what he did (or what I did for that matter). But if it's forever about (you were TOW) then how does healing happen?

I've read almost all the posts now and I have to say it is my opinion, remember it's just MY opinion, that maybe everyone did come down a little hard on hailey. I didn't see any reasons to really start ripping her down.
I didn't notice ANYone, including her, being very objective.
I think she probably came to the wrong place to tell her story since most here are victims of affairs and therefor really don't want to hear any reasons or excuses and I"m sure there's many.
It seems everyone's defending thier right to feel anger and disgust.
Maybe some objective advice to Hailey, the kind you might give your best friend if you were to find out she/he was ending an affair, would go along way to help her not enter into another affair later in life.
I"m in no way defending what she did but she might be looking for more than just rubbing it in your face.

Katie Scarlett, in catching up on this emotional post I wanted to thank you for your request that Hailey not come here and "pick on these guys." I was feeling uncomfortable with her growing implication that you and she were the only reality-based individuals here. I knew you understood our feelings better than that. Thanks!<p>Also, I would like to add something to your second point in that post:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Point #2
About marriage/commitment. Like I said in another post. My relationship with MM was not nearly as serious as these guys want to think that it was. He was my favorite playmate. I wasn't trying to "end his happy life" with his family. It wasn't about all of that. <hr></blockquote><p>I understand your comment that you weren't trying to tear up this man's life and family, but you know, it only heaps coal on the heads of BS to be told that the shattering of their lives was merely a pleasant lark to the parties to it's destruction. An OP may not be serious about the MM, but her/his actions are deathly serious to the BS, so we must take them very seriously.<p>A child may wreak grievous harm on an animal or smaller child while being playful or careless. A child has limited ability to feel empathy, and cannot realize that it is not her intent which counts the most, but the effects of her actions. As a parent, our job is to encourage emotional maturity by creating empathy in our children, to tell them "If you do this, you will cause another to feel pain, even if you don't mean to."<p>Katie Scarlett, I continue to like you, and I'm glad you're on this board. Hope I haven't offended with this preachy post!<p>Rose Red

To Katie S -
I will not - will not sit idle and be called and I quote from this board - "a whore" "sorry" "immoral" Doesn't know God - oh and one of the best one involved the word "f@##$$" something or other - I am not a doormat - I have not called anyone any names here - I don't do that - it's childish and immature - but when angered - I did state the truth - it's hard for BS's to here - but it's the truth - probably why it's hard to face - it's not right - but it's reality. please go look for yourself what I and YOU have been called here- These folks are fond of quoteing scripture to suite thier needs so I'll take that liberty too - Judge not that ye may not be judged.

Hailey,
Oh believe me, I was been on the business end of some serious preaching and bible quoting. <p>The "righteous indignation" has worked my nerves on MORE than one occastion. At the same time I choose my battles.<p>It's not like I walked in here and expected them to say "welcome...please explain to me why you are TOW." I knew what I was doing when I logged on here. My mission was clear. So while there are those who feel it their duty to school me. I always have the option of ignoring them. Just as they have the option of ignoring me.<p>These piss fights NEVER go anywhere. NEVER. I'm been posting on boards on the net for years now. Piss fights are NEVER worth the effort.<p>It's not what you're called - it's what you answer to that makes the difference.<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

Red Rose,
I know that making that statement would sting and so I was hesitant to post it. At the same time it's the truth.<p>I think it's wrong for BS's to assume that all OP what to steal your spouse/family. When the truth is I know PLENTY of OP. (I work with about 5-6) Personally I don't know ANY OW who "want" the guy for their own.

Well said Katie S - "pick your battles" it's just that I was taken aback by this rightous indignation. I am the kind who will gather ALL the info I can to make a decision - from All sides - even the ones I don't want to hear - this isn't the only place I've been to gather info either - and I've read pretty much everthing on this board - and the stuff over at the OTW board and spend hours in the local college lib - looking up articles etc - this is just a bit of my process - it has been enlightening