I posted this under just curious but thought it might be something that many of us want more info on. My exH was involved in an A that began first as friendship - then evolved into an EA - and finally a PA. It was the most entrenched thing I'd ever scene - He ended up marrying her. Anyway, I'm starting over here with a good man and am trying hard not to repeat that first marriage. Any info you guys can give me on this. I thought the first time that the friendship he had with the OW was not a threat to me - I was secure (haha - hindsight) in his love for me. But boy was I wrong. What's the scope on the combination of the two EA/PA?

My H had an EA/PA which he was able to overcome.<p>So, no, it's not impossible to do [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . <p>Peace, ~Marie

I know that it happens - I'm glad yours worked out better than mine. Now I'm just curious to know some stuff about the combination of the two. Like what's stronger the EA or the PA? If WS has a PA then stops the PA then an EA what's the odds of resuming the PA? stuff like that - you guys are a wealth of info.

I know that it happens - I'm glad yours worked out better than mine. Now I'm just curious to know some stuff about the combination of the two. Like what's stronger the EA or the PA? If WS has a PA then stops the PA then an EA what's the odds of resuming the PA? stuff like that - you guys are a wealth of info.

Hi,
IMHO, the EA pulls the emotions stronger than the PA. Think about it, Victoria Secret sells a lot of clothes and so does Fredrick's of Hollywood. Really really??? Same stuff, it is all in the head because once the clothes come off, the body (pretty or not) is the same. Can't hide all those imperfections. <p>While all dressed up, the anticipation builds and often imaginations run wild. Once reality hits (like a PA) all that imagination stuff starts to subside. <p>If an A can be stopped in the EA stage, I think it is harder because one always wonders....what if.... Yet if the EA went PA, the WS won't wonder because they already did...... Ex: Oh yes the man thinks, the OW looks really sexy in those clothes...but then he sees her naked and says yuck but she is full of zits on her back..... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Or like Prince Charles is supposedly now saying "Camilia stinks and bad breathe". So were his sinus passages blocked all those years? Maybe it was all in his head all the time?!??! Or was it?<p>L.

You're right - sex is pretty much sex after the initial newness wears off isn't it. So ol'Prince C is tiring of the OW after what 50 years? haha -
But back to the EA - I would think it harder to give up to because they could justify it easier - after all they aren't actually being physical so what's the big deal - they could even incorporate the EA into thier lives easier - under the guise of "friends" as my ex did. But it does take energy away from the marriage and makes things impossible almost to overcome as long as it goes on.

I think P Charles' nasal passages and maybe some of that foggy thing is starting to clear. Take those scales off his eyes and whew!! Ol' Camilia is getting pruney!!! The sad piece is that his sons are now without a mother. In addition to losing a princess the ones who paid the ultimate price are her sons. How sad. All for a wrinkly OW. What a trade off. In their case there is no ability to recover the marriage. <p>Yes, the EA is potentially more dangerous than the PA but that is hard for the BS to understand at the beginning. <p>L.

According to my H, the EA is definitely stronger than the PA.<p>After d-day, my H originally wanted to stop the PA and keep the EA going...thought this would be OK.<p>H realized (with help of marriage counselor) that putting OW "above" me was a mistake-- and that if he continued to do so, that our marriage would end in divorce.<p>H decided he could live without OW's friendship and broke off all contact with her.<p>~Marie

Is my opinion that EA/turned/PA is just about "on par" with a M, in the sense that that is what happens to all of us, when we "date, and then marry." All hormones flowing freely, and happily, etc.<p>SO, in a very real sense, WS's often think they are "starting over" in a new "marriage" of sorts when EA becomes PA. That is why there is sooo much "fog" to overcome, and it takes so much longer. Only thing standing in the way is the guilt and remorse associated with "baggage" coming from being M!! BUT if WS is good at "locking up" their emotions, or compartmentalizing, they can stay in A longer (my opinion, only).<p>My own WH is in this type of A, and I think he truly believes he "loves" OW. Right now all needs met by her, especially sf, (high on his "neglected by W list) [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] and he's "having the time of his life...." Only sticky part is to dis-entangle from ME, and then!! AND THEN they can "live happily ever after." He's doing his dead-level best to be rid of me.<p>I'm praying that he becomes DISenchanted by her "charms" before WE get disentangled through d.<p>Lupo

renee,<p>I responded to your question on Spiro's Just Curious thread.<p>Here it is.<p>__________________________________________________<p>renee,<p>My understanding about the EA versus the PA is that in a PA there is ONE primary emotional need being met, sexual fulfillment. <p>The difficulty with an EA or EA/PA is there are other important emotional needs being met in addition to SF, and the affair partners can really love each other.<p>The challenge then becomes one where the WS who wants to save the marriage must choose to let go of a deeply emotional relationship and work to rebuild love for the BS and let BS fulfill the ENs that the WS allowed the OP to fulfill during the affair. <p>Leaving the A is extremely painful for the WS. It is really hard. WS go through withdrawal that takes weeks or months. There is often renewed contact with the OP. If there is, recovery is set back to square one and withdrawal has to start all over again. Meanwhile the BS has to
use every bit of emotional strength he/she has to maintain love for the WS. This is why recovery from an A with an emotional component is so hard for everyone.<p>Hope this helps. Correct me if I have the wrong take on this MBers.<p>Estes
__________________________________________________<p>I'm sorry that your H left your marriage. I think an emotional connection between two adults not married to each other is very threatening.<p>Be sure to read the information on Harley's BASIC CONCEPTS.<p>[URL=http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html]Summary of Basic Concepts[/URL<p>I hope your new relationship fulfills your greatest expectations.<p>E.

Thanks so much for the wish E49. That made a lot of scence. My exH was so deep in the fog that a coast guard cutter couldn't reach him. Funny thing is he suffered terribly. Yet he still choose to go with OW - I didn't understand the hold she had on him. I do know now that the issues we dealt with in our own M are now ones the two of them are dealing with - for the record - he is a serial cheater on her - he for the most part managed to stay somewhat faithful to me for long stretches of time. Actually, he had that one night stand our 2nd year and then 5 years of faithfulness till the next A. I sometimes think that he cheats on her because he feels that that's who he is now. It's sad really. She puts up with it - knows about it because - I think she feels that's who "they are" funny thing is I knew them both before and that's not who either of them were. OH what a tangled web.

I posted to Spiro on her thread my belief that people with internal demons (unresolved personal emotional issues) have built in problems in maintaining stable relationships. It sounds like your xH is proof of that.<p>I hope it is some consolation to you to realize that the basic problem was him, not you.<p>Estes

Oh I know now- NOW- that it had not really much to do with me - but it took me a lonnnng time to get that.
Right now I'm just afraid that because I've been burnt once that I"ll become the love police with my new SO (sig - other) and scrutenize each and every female that looks his way. What are some indicators that a friendship has crossed the line to an EA?

This is what my H had also. Personally for me dealing with the EA is harder than the PA. Although the PA sickens me the EA is more hurtfull. Having him have such strong feelings for someone else. I think also it would be easier for fogs to lift if there wasn't such an EA bond.

Hello All,<p>From what I understand from reading MB materials, trust has to be purposefully built by couples in a relationship. It has to be a commitment from both partners. <p>The Harleys have some very practical suggestions. For example, they suggest that a couple spend most of their leisure time together. If both spouses are together, it's hard for a third person to get too close.<p>Another technique is Policy of Joint Agreement. Do only what both partners enthusiastically agree about. Say, one spouse says that an office party is for employees only, not spouses. If both H and W do not enthusiastically agree that one goes to the party without the other, the person does not go to the party. There is no way to hang out with a potential OP at the party.<p>Another concept is radical honesty. Each spouse agrees to be 100% open and honest to the other.
No secret email accounts, phone accounts, etc. If a spouse says finds herself becoming close to another man, she tells her H, and they work on what EN needs attention. If SO paying too much attention to other women unsets you, you are honest with him about it and come to an agreement that protects you from being hurt by him (another MB concept - Protection from Harm).<p>The best use of MB concepts is to apply them from the beginning in a realtionship and don't let up.
This, of course, can be more easily said than done. It goes to show that a relationship needs maintenance, or it will deteriorate just like a house or vehicle that is not worked on regularly.<p>Estes<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

estes - the house/vehicle is a good analogy. My x's EA was much more hurtful than his PA too. Looking back I think what hurt most was his wanting her. Wanting to be with her - not just in a physical way but enjoying her as a person. And looking back I see he began to keep secret about there contact from me. At first I think it was because he thought I would get jealous - I don't even think that he thought he was getting in to deep. That's what's scary - I think it took him by surprise as much as it did anyone.

This is where MB can help. MB tells us how an A starts and tells us what to avoid for the sake of the relationship. If both partners in a relationship know in advance what can happen, maybe the environments that lead to As can be avoided.<p>Will your SO read MB info with you? It's good for any intimate (general term) relationship, not just married couples.<p>According to MB no opposite sex friendship is really safe. Too much can happen. MB says anyone is capable of infidelity if the circumstances are right.<p>Best wishes,
Estes<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

There is no psychological difference between marriage and an affair. They behaviours that lead one to enter marriage are the same ones that lead one to enter an affair.....a desire to belong to/with someonone. True there are many kinds of affairs, IMO affairs can be about all the things humans suffer from, vanity, greed, avoidance, and often are about these negative things, and so fail as often as marriages fail. But an affair can also be about giving, love, caring, freindship..... the very things that lead us to marry. The difficulty comes about as the desires of the heart, conflict with the peer pressure of culture. Even though we have no genes for recognizing marriage as a one shot chance to satisfy our need to bond, we try to legislate it by cultural mores, legal documents, and religious interpretations...these are all artificial constraints, and act in opposiition to evolved behaviour. Hence all the talk about rules of protection, and affair proofing marriages. There is no need when people are happy with their spouse, and the better they fit the happier they are, until a line is crossed where an affair is not possible (harley says the same in his last book for you naysayers). Because people do a poor job of mate selection (in general) we have a lot of pressure for affair behaviour. This can be offset by working hard at the marriage, (essentially eliminating opportunities to focus on how well you do or do not fit someone compared to others). So to answer your question rene, pa mean nothing, it is all about ea.... an ea is essentially a bonding effort, no different than marriage..... it will survive or not on its own merits..... but a bs can take action. If the ea is arising out of neglect and poor communication, but the "fit" is good, the bs can successfully compete, even if the ea has gone pa...if they make the necessary changes, and if the fit of ws with op is not that good. But it all depends, on exactly who all the participants are, and their own internal paradigms.<p>In the case of your new relationship, there is nothing you can do to gaurantee bonding and lifelong love...that is the risk you take if you seek to mate.....and to the degree you try to "make" sure your H stays true, you will ensure failure. True love is about vulnerability and risk. BUT you can do a lot to make a conducive atmosphere....first due diligence in your mate selection.... that means relentless radical honesty re yourself, and him, do not overlook or dismiss stuff, it will only come back to bite you. There should not be the slightest doubt he is the one..... and practice MB principles, before and after marriage. IMO MB has nothing to do with createing in-love (that comes form elsewhere) but it is an excellent standard to gauge the health of a relationship, and spot troubles early.....they may be unfixable problems, but at least you will recognize them, and get on top of em quick, either finding resolution or ending the marriage as unworkable. Good luck.

I guess one of my biggest questions are HOW can anyone have a PA first without having an EA and how on earth can anyone who is in love with their spouse ever have an affair to begin with???<p>I am wondering if it is even possible to do either of the mentioned above.<p>SNL if you are still there, I would really like your input. You seem to know the alot about these things. And I like your straight forwardness.<p> Thank You

spiro....SNL if you are still there, I would really like your input. You seem to know the alot about these things. And I like your straight forwardness.<p>snl...Thank-you for the um... guess it would fall under admiration EN. Let me make it clear, I am just a guy, a 51 yo wsh at that. I have no special expertise or training, just a lifelong interest in human behaviour, so a lot of observation, reading, and thinking about such things. I am here cause my life fell apart and I am trying to understand why and what to do about it. Part of how I do that is talk, alot, (a female trait I am told, but oh well). Some think I am full of crap, and just trying to rationalize my own behaviour, maybe so, who knows. I like to think I am trying to unravel the complexities of human bonding and in so doing figure out a new way of behaving, cause clearly the paradigms I had been relying on most my life did not work too well.<p>spiro...I guess one of my biggest questions are HOW can anyone have a PA first without having an EA and how on earth can anyone who is in love with their spouse ever have an affair to begin with???<p>snl...I wonder this stuff too, these are the basic questions aren't they. There are lots of opinions from original sin to not haing needs met...I think the answers lie elsewhere (but can include those things). How a PA first? Well that is the easier one, hard as it is to believe people do seek sex simply for the pleasure, sort of like a recreational activity, or going to a good steak house. Sad to say I did so for a short time in my youth as well (tried out promiscuity) made me sick, and I gave it up, but I thought it was what real men were supposed to do (chase and catch women). But for many (men and women alike) the thrill of the chase and the pleasure of the capture is enough reason in itself. IMO if one finds they are married to such a person they should divorce them immediately, they are not marriage material, never will be, and dangerous to ones well-being. Another form of pa is those who equate sex with some sort of well-being, and seek sex for validation, they may be fixable, but it is a 50/50 proposition at best. You also have another group who are predators, they seek sexual conqest as a means of projecting power, and find satisfaction in controlling people through sex.<p>Your second question is very complex, and depends on what love really is, this is the area I have explored for sometime, and is the source of the I love you, but am not in-love with you phenomena. MB has it's theories, and bases it on behaviour, saying in-love is about how well your needs are met, so you can fluctuate between in-love and out of love, and it is fixable..... personally I am not so sure. I think true love (the intimate marital kind) is more involved than that. So to answer your question, I don't think anyone who is really in-love with their spouse will have an affair. It is possible to conjecture one can be in-love but have serious enough personal issues that an affair could happen, but one could argue that such a person is incapable of loving anyone until the heal themself, and it is only the potential to be in-love that is present. Likewise the reference above to pa only affairs, IMO none of these people are capable of the intimate bonding we call in-love. In fact it would not surprise me that a significant percentage of the human race is incapable of the deep bonding we label as being in-love. The unfortunate thing is many (most) of these people do marry (because of our genetic drives to reproduce, and cultural pressures to do so in a structured manner, ie marriage), and in so doing they gaurantee terrible heartache for the people they marry. <p>I have considered all this stuff at length, sometimes mindnumbing length [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] search my user name if you want. I have either started or participated in almost every thread pertaining to such issues in last 8 months. What is your circumstance at the moment?