My husband has always been known for his strong Christian beliefs, they were not just words either but his actions backed them up. Then he met a young woman, went into an EA, and now I suspect a PA. We are seperated, and I'm in Plan B - I think he is living with the OW. He has basically abandoned me, keeping all our savings.<p>I'm trying to come to grips with how my Christian husband can do what he's doing. He of all people knows it's wrong and displeasing to God. He's told me that 'God will forgive him anyway, if he repents'. If there are any ex-WS out there who could tell me their thinking at the time they went into the affair, and during the affair, I would be grateful. Does God suddenly not matter anymore? <p>I'm also wondering if it means my husband was never really saved. And what happens if he were to die without repenting, will he miss out on Heaven? I thought the Bible teaches us that once saved we are always saved, yet how can a saved person do something so devastating?<p>NRE

<p>[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Bunny ]</p>

Evensong,<p>I don't think that God ever gives up on his people. Trust Him to work in your H's life, and continue to pray for him.<p>mylife is so right about free will and Satan lying in wait for vulnerable souls.<p>My WDIL told people, including her priest, that God was bringing new people into her life and that He was calling her to move to another state to find herself. In truth she took my grandson and moved 600 miles away from home. We found out later that she moved there to be with an OM. She also went to church and proclaimed to all that God was sooo good in all things! She even told my son that God had connected her to the OM so that she could help him overcome his problems. What kind of self-deception allowed her to believe that God would use her to destroy a family in order to do His work, we will never know.<p>I'm glad you started this thread, Evensong. I have intended to do so myself. How do supposedly God-fearing people participate in such deceit and betrayal. What in the world goes on in their minds to justify the evil things they do?<p>Yet, I truly believe that God redeems his wayward children. Free will can get us so off track, but God never gives up trying to get us back.<p>Take care,
Estes

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Evensong:
<strong>I'm trying to come to grips with how my Christian husband can do what he's doing. He of all people knows it's wrong and displeasing to God. I thought the Bible teaches us that once saved we are always saved, yet how can a saved person do something so devastating?<p>NRE</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi, Evensong,
I love your screen name, btw!! Sounds so calming, and peaceful!<p>I am in the same boat, pretty much. My Christian WH said to me, just days before he left, "We REALLY need to start going back to church." See, we had gotten away from our faith, and I know he knew - and was being convicted - of his sin even before he did what he was contemplating, which was to move out and move in w/OW. He did that - the day he moved out of our home.<p>Since then, he has told me he expects "God will deal with me eventually for this." Sooo, my question would be WHY DO IT if you know it's going to displease God?? I don't know the answer to that. I just know he needs my prayers right now to protect him. He's still with her, 7 months later. I don't see any "movement towards home," but God has given me assurances that He is working on my WH, and he will bring him home. Unfortunately, when humans have free will, I believe it means they can slow down God's plan by running away from Him. Think about all the people who "ran" from God....Jonah and Elijah, come to mind for starters. But I don't believe they can run forever (again, think about the two fellows I mentioned). God always has His perfect will in the end.<p>To answer one of your questions, I DO believe a Christian "tries" to believe "God doesn't matter" anymore. But they can't do it forever!! Cause they DO know better. NO, I don't believe they "lose" their salvation, but I believe they experience a loss of blessings, and God's protection. I believe if they die in this condition, they would then be shown all they lost because of their sin. ALL my opinions, only! <p>Remember, though, that we ALL sin much of the time! THis isn't a whole lot different, except that it's UNREPENTANT sin at the moment. The severity of it (in OUR minds, doesn't matter to God).<p>It's vitally important for the BS to continue praying for WS, cause that's the only way God's covering can be on them! THey need us....we can't let them down at a time when they don't even know what they are doing. Totally driven by emotion, and decieved by Satan. He loves to "take down" Christians, and try to thwart God's plan for bringing many to His kingdom before the end of the time comes. This just says to the world, "See, HOW can there be a God, when things like this happen to believers?" I am believing God for a miracle, and testifying to it.<p>I have also taken a position of praying for OW. I'm not doing too well on that one, but I try!! I was MAJORLY attacked by Satan one time when I seriously prayed she would come to know Jesus, and asked for forgiveness for HER, too, since she didn't realize the sin SHE was committing. WOW!! Satan didn't like THAT!! I wish I could say I'm faithful to pray for her salvation, which I know she needs, but I'm not. My bad. I know that if she comes to the Lord, she WILL be convicted of her "lifestyle" and will dump my H, and send him home!! There IS an ulterior motive, but still, she needs to know the Lord. She's ONE unhappy, lonely desperate woman, if the only love she can find is through scheming to TAKE someone else's H!!<p>One thing you will learn about me is that my posts are always too long! Anyway, I hope I've helped.<p>God Bless,
Lupo

It is hard to understand but remember that King David in the OT was a man after God's own heart and he committed adultery AND MURDER. The Psalms are full of his repentence and how richly they have blessed so many. There are so many cases of waywardness and destructive behavior in the Bible. Noah got drunk after the great flood. Jacob deceived his father. Abram lied about his wife and Isaac lied to save his own neck, too.
We have heart's that are "deceitful and desperately wicked" and that part I understand but why can't some learn from their mistakes is something I really struggle with. A mistake is a mistake but to continue repeating destructive mistakes and not comprehending seems to be my WS's pattern.<p>I believe God does forgive repentative WS but the consequences may be devastating. David lost the child he conceived with Bathsheba and never had good relationships with his other children. I also believe that the wedge between WS and God could become huge which may lead to someday WS rejecting God totally if that is possible. God can forgive but cannot bless disobedience. The quality of life suffers. <p>Just some of what I see.....wish there was a black and white answer to some of this but the gray can get so charcoal sometimes. <p>TW

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Evensong:
<strong><p>I'm also wondering if it means my husband was never really saved. And what happens if he were to die without repenting, will he miss out on Heaven? I thought the Bible teaches us that once saved we are always saved, yet how can a saved person do something so devastating?<p>NRE</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I don't have much to add since so many great points were already made. A saved person is STILL a sinner, and sadly, ALL of us still sin to one degree or another. The hard part about being a Christian is that it's no longer any fun to be bad. <p>However, I heard an interesting take on this on the Bible Answer Man last week about continued sin. He believes that Christians that live a life in pursuit of sin [unrepentent sin - not just the occasional minor thing] were probably never saved at all. The Bible states that you will "know them by their fruits." So while we can discern to SOME DEGREE who is saved, we can never be completely sure because only God knows their heart. <p>Hanegraff [Bible Answer Man] used the excellent example of Judas. According to all outward appearances, Judas was the perfect Christian, he healed people, cast out demons, forgave and brought many to Christ. But then in the end, he turned out to be an enemy of God - he was not really committed to God in his heart. <p>The bottom line is that ultimately only God knows what the person has CHOSEN and He loved us so much that he gave us the FREE WILL to chose to be with Him or not be with Him. He would never force someone into heaven against their will - then it would be hell.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tossedwave:
<strong>It is hard to understand but remember that King David in the OT was a man after God's own heart and he committed adultery AND MURDER. The Psalms are full of his repentence and how richly they have blessed so many</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I am always reminded of the Apostle Paul, to your point. He was a MURDERER of Christians before he became a Christian! The examples you gave speak so well to the awesome capacity of the Lord to forgive.

Such excellent answers, thank you all so much. I pray for my husband of course, but am having trouble praying for the OW. The best I can pray for her is that she finds God and is saved, but even that is hard sometimes.<p>NRE

Evensong, <p>I can appreciate this thread and all of the thoughtful comments - thank you - all - for sharing them.<p>As a former WS (i guess ------ I have not been able to separate myself from my wrong's at this point) and having given my life to Christ over 10 years ago, I have often wondered about these same questions that have been brought up here.<p>It is terrifing to me, to think of not really being saved. <p>I have asked myself time and time again if I really did accept Jesus. I feel that I did, but when I did, I had no way of knowing I would fall in this way. In fact, I hated this particular sin, and was sick to my stomach over those who commited it. <p>I ask Him often, 'Jesus, did you know what I would do in the future, and did you choose to accept me anyway?' or was it never really true? Am I a liar and a thief from start to finish?<p>Why did I make the choices I made? I do know one thing for sure. It was gradual and slow. <p>Often I have heard those teaching the Word say: small compromises, if allowed to, will grow like weeds. I know this first hand.<p>I allowed it. <p>It started off with discontentment. Involved in church, yet as my H worked more and was around less...slowly, very slowly I adjusted myself. Lost interest and energy. Tired of always being asked why he wasn't there, I began not to go. Strangely though, I question if 'him not being there' was really the issue. If it was simply an excuse for me to loose energy and focus.<p>On and on the small separations went. Until missing church was 'fine', almost a relief.<p>Now as it stands we have been to church only a couple or three times in the last two to three years.<p>He dove into his work. I ended up looking for ??? Something to fill the emptiness? Now that I had stepped God out of the equation? <p>Is it the same reason I am here now? I am alone. Watching my beautiful fire in the fireplace. H is away again for work. So I am typing on this laptop, wondering why this is where I am.<p>I has been probably three years or more that he has been gone so much. This does not work. A marriage belongs together. Yet I know sometimes marriages that are physically together - aren't there emotionally. <p>I am venting and rambling - I am sorry for the wasted space.<p>God is, I am convinced, the only solution. We just have to find our way back there if we are lost.<p>I am sorry. I guess I didn't have anything to add. Only that as the others say, God can do amazing things. I am hoping in that.<p>Please don't give up on your H yet Evensong. I can say it as one who doesn't want to be given up on either - not yet.

<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Dawnn ]</p>

It's a funny thing about religion.<p>My daughters Morman Bishop has never had a drink or coffee or even a coke with cafeen, but........<p>He never plans on leaving his four little boys and his wife(thank GOD). But inspite of a letter from by husband asking him to "do the right thing" so that our daughter can go on with her life and find someone who can give her a life, he keeps complete control of her heart. So sad!<p>But he has NEVER had COFFEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please forgive the interruption of your thread, Evensong.<p>Hi, gottruth? I emailed you earlier today and got a reply that your account was closed. Thought I'd lost track of you. Do you still have my address?<p>Estes

I am a wsh, and a Christian (as is th ow), and this has been something I have had to work through. I have not avoided it, or hid behind God forgiving me, so I will just do what I want anyways either. My choices have brought me face to face with what do I really believe, and what is the truth, no longer can I coast along content (and maybe a little smug) that I know all the answers.... There is only 2 ways to look at this evensong..... if it is was "wrong" how could I do such a thing....... or if it is not wrong what exactly happened and why. For many this seems pretty simple, loving someone other than your "spouse" is "wrong".... that is a legalistic approach, and as such does not answer anything. The truth lies elsewhere, and the path to uncovering it is far from obvious. It would take me pages and pages and pages to answer your question properly, the discussion is involved and complex, and not well recieved in this venue. Suffice to say one must start with assumptions and interpretations re marriage, what it actually is, and how it actually fits in God's plan. Keep in mind NO ONE knows with certainty God's mind, or his plans for any of us. All marital doctrine is interpretation by imperfect humans. I do believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, but I do not necessarily believe everything various individuals decide is the "truth". Ultimately we will each be judged by what the truth in our hearts, and the moment we follow any plan but God's (ie other peoples intreptation of how we should live our life) we are lost. Many worship marriage and the secular manifestation of same as an icon..... instead of focusing on the people involved. I do not necessarily think simply going to a church (and many do not do this anyways), and having a piece of paper from the state makes you spiritually married. Nor do I think saying vows means anything to God if your heart and mind are not right in so doing. And lastly I do think God may very well end a "marriage" if He so chooses, He certainly has the power to do so, and implies this when He admonishes no man to usurp His authority in this area. As for your H, I cannot say of course. But I will say this, many bs violated their marriage "vows" (if that is the standard) long before their ws wandered..... which raises the issue, were they still then married?

snl<p>Regarding your statement:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>For many this seems pretty simple, loving someone other than your "spouse" is "wrong".... that is a legalistic approach, and as such does not answer anything. <hr></blockquote><p>Could it be that having the feeling of love is not wrong, but acting on that love while still married to another is wrong?<p>Wondering,
Estes

estes...Could it be that having the feeling of love is not wrong, but acting on that love while still married to another is wrong?<p>snl...Indeed, it is all in the action, but what action, that is the problem. There are many things going on, IMO the um........ primary issue is coveting, another complex subject in itself. Fairly easy to discern in an economic context, but much more difficult when the issue is bonding. I firmly believe many marriages are not spiritual at all, but are abominations in God's eyes...... wearing the cloak of righteousness does not make one righteous necessarily.....

Most definitely, there are many marriages that do not follow God's plan. That's part of what makes all this so complicated. I've read enough of your posts to understand where your dilemma lies (I think.), the sacrificial marriages and all. <p>I think I replied to one of your posts that I fall pretty much into the duty-bound category, not a sacrificial marriage advocate so much as an - I gave my word, and who says I get to have everything I want, anyway. - approach.<p>Too bad that schools don't require courses in the dynamics of human relationships early on. Sigh.<p>Estes

estes...Most definitely, there are many marriages that do not follow God's plan. That's part of what makes all this so complicated. <p>snl...Yes, it does.<p>estes...I've read enough of your posts to understand where your dilemma lies (I think.), the sacrificial marriages and all. <p>snl...I have lots of dilemmas, but yes sacrificial marriage is no different than going to church singing hymns, tithing, and saying praise the Lord ever 5 minutes, and figuring you are saved...... the problem is you CANNOT be married sacrificially, it is a spiritual oxymoron, and those who worship vows are guilty of the sin of pride. You are either spiritually married, or you are not, there is nothing we can do to alter the truth.....but we can act in opposition to the truth.....in either direction. My dilemma is discerning the truth, and reconcilling it with my choices (commonly refered to as freewill).<p>estes...I fall pretty much into the duty-bound category, not a sacrificial marriage advocate so much as an - I gave my word, and who says I get to have everything I want, anyway. - approach.<p>snl...Not for me to say or judge, but how do you reconcile putting your will first (pride in your word) with being obedient to God? You will probably say you are doing God's will....but are you? Have you done the work to know that, or have you simply absorbed the typical programming Chrtistians recieve? <p>estes...Too bad that schools don't require courses in the dynamics of human relationships early on. Sigh.<p>snl....This lack of training (which should begin at a very early age) in the dynamics of human relationships is the fundamental cause of marital (and pretty much all relationship) disharmony. We need to make marriage much much harder to enter.<p>In very general terms IMO, it should take 1-2 years AFTER applying for a marriage license, of intense premarital training before one can get married....... and if a divorce should occur, it should be with sanctions.....such as maybe 5 years before you can remarry, make some post-marital programs before decree granted, severe sanctions (basically economically) for ws who divorce. EA/PA should have legal consequences as well. No one should be prohibited from divorcing, and a bs should be able to divorce pretty much without sanctions, but we need to reintroduce accountability into the marital equation. This stuff would not be hard to do, the social benefits staggering, and the individual benefits pretty good too.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Not for me to say or judge, but how do you reconcile putting your will first (pride in your word) with being obedient to God? <hr></blockquote><p>Are you equating honoring one's word with willful pride? Stubborness might be prideful.<p>E.

estes...Are you equating honoring one's word with willful pride? Stubborness might be prideful.<p>snl...Yes it could be, in fact stated that way it almost always is. Keep in mind that anything, literally anything, can be used against us by satan, he is the master manipulator. Anytime we do something solely cause we gave our word, we are sinning the sin of pride. We are not omniscient, so it is impossible for us (humans) to make such absolute committments. When we seek to do so we are following a legalistic behaviour, something God explicitly warns against. I do not trust someone who worships keeping their word, I cannot trust them to think for themselves, they are ridgid and sooner or later will hurt someone really bad. Life (mother nature) makes it clear those who are not adaptable die, as well. That would be consistent with God's admonition not to be legalistic, and satisfies my beleif that secular truths and Christian truths must be consistent or one of them is wrong.<p>Further, if you contemplate this for awhile estes, I am sure you can start to see how satan can use someones committment to be honorable against them. Lastly it is pretty simple to take a never statement, or any rule based paradigm (such as I will never lie, or steal, etc.) and have the speaker themself admit they would violate it, if I get to make up the circumstances. It is easy (and dangerous) to assume we can structure our lives on rules alone, one can live this fantasy as long as their life is not stressed to hard. But when circumstances take us to places where the rules don't provide the answers we need, we are lost, because we have not developed the problem solving skills to deal with the crisis. Life is not about rules estes, it is about processes, principles, and applications of those principles. Marriage is not a principle, it is a legal contract, as zorweb pointed out so well (thanks z, I have been wanting to do that for some time). Human bonding does follow principles though, discerible principles (spiritual and secular), and we discern and act on them or not, cause we have freewill, and are subject to the consequences good or bad.

Good morning,<p>snl
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Anytime we do something solely cause we gave our word, we are sinning the sin of pride. <hr></blockquote><p>Estes: I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point.<p>snl
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Human bonding does follow principles though, discerible principles (spiritual and secular), and we discern and act on them or not, cause we have freewill, and are subject to the consequences good or bad. <hr></blockquote><p>Estes: Amen to that.<p>Wishing you a meaningful Christmas,
Estes