OK. I need a little help tonight.<p>I just had a long conversation with the WW tonight. It seems like things aren't going the way she wants them to for Xmas day, so naturally I become the target. She also isn't responding well to the plan A letter I sent her a few days ago. I wasn't planning for any miracles by doing sending it. But I didn't expect the response I'm getting.<p>It seems that she is really ticked off that I am still holding out for recovery in our marriage. She claims that she is never coming back, that she has had no problems since she moved out, and she really hoped that for the kids' sake we could be just friends. <p>She kind of caught me unprepared here. I responded by telling her I could never just be her friend and that I will always love her (LB?)She claimed she has seen no change in me. I responded by saying that to see the changes she is talking about, she needs to let me get through to her. She started repeating the "I'm not in love with you...I don't know if I ever was in love with you...It was like being married to my brother for 18 years...You're wasting your time...I don't want to give you any false hope" crap. Same old broken record.<p>I need to read up on that info about one spouse being able to save a marriage even if the other doesn't want to try. Does anyone remember where to find it or have any other insights?

<p>[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Bunny ]</p>

Rest assured, it ALWAYS starts with one spouse being the driving force in trying to save the marriage.<p>Try Susan Pages "How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together" (or something like that).<p>Kev

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Always Hopeful:
<strong>She also isn't responding well to the plan A letter I sent her a few days ago. I wasn't planning for any miracles by doing sending it. But I didn't expect the response I'm getting.
She started repeating the "I'm not in love with you...I don't know if I ever was in love with you...It was like being married to my brother for 18 years...You're wasting your time...I don't want to give you any false hope" crap</strong><hr></blockquote><p>AH,
Anger is always a good sign! It's an emotion....when they are completely withdrawn from you, and showing NO emotion at all, they are far away. The anger is her trying to justify her actions, but you're not playing her game! But again, being in Conflict stage is better than in WIthdrawal stage.<p>The words are hurtful, I know, but mean nothing, They are standard WS script material. Ignore them, do not respond to them. Just keep up your Plan A strategy of writing "love" letters of sorts. Expect nothing in return. I believe over time they have a cumulative effect.<p>I am employing this same "tactic" - writing, and expressing my love for my WH. I always tell him some little something about our home, my life, end with "I Love you and believe in You, know you are making hard decisions for your life now...." Of course I always tell him I'm praying for him, don't know if that applies to you! I wwant him to realize that I also want "the best" for him!! It's just that I don't believe OW is "the best" for him!! Certainly NOT under these circumstances.....but can't tell HIM that!! So I just write about "...decisions in his life...." making him think I'm supporting whatever he chooses. In a way, I guess I am, since I cannot force him to choose anything. Just taking the pressure off.....but in its own subtle way, it's exerting MORE pressure.<p>He never comments on the letters, either, but I'm certain he reads every one of them. I also began sending cards entitled "10 Things I Love About My Husband." It was a thread someone started on here awhile back. I compiled my own list of things....was up to about 40, so I sent him a list of 10 at a time.....he never said a WORD about it, BUT I did notice a shift in attitude towards me once I started sending those!! Just so you know, my WH lives w/OW in another town, and I don't have physical contact (eye contact, I meant) with him. Only letters, and phone calls, which will NOT happen, either, unless I initiate. So all looks very bleak from the outside. BUT I continue to contact him, some letters, cards, some phone calls when necessary.<p>We'll see what the future holds!! As for your situation, keep doing what you're doing, don't expect anything in return! Anger is more than some of us get. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Please share any info you find from the book Kev mentioned if you find it. I'm about "tapped out" as far as buying any more "self-help" books. I'm still reading about 3!! Always hearing more titles of books that sound good. I've heard this one is a keeper.<p>God Bless,
Lupo

AH - ditto Lupo.<p>The book you're remembering is the one by Page, but don't bother, IMO. It doesn't apply much to affairs and it's basically all about Plan A, which you already know.<p>But back to Lupo's reply. She is dead on and I know you know it. That said, I fall back into the trap pretty frequently of having self doubts and believing the crap my wife says - well maybe not believing it, but letting it affect me.<p>Stand back and look at the big picture instead of focusing on a particular interchange or accusation - SHE LEFT YOUR FAMILY FOR ANOTHER WOMAN!!! When we react to every current in the river we lose sight of the big, defining issue - ADULTERY! All her petty excuses and jabs are what she has to do to keep you on the defensive. Please don't fall for it.

HI<p> I am going through the same thing that you are. She also told me that she is not sure if she ever loved me. This was hard for me to take. I said thanks for waisting my time if this is the way she feel. Recently it has come out that she see's me as her father. this floored me beyond belief. I am no where near to what he was like. Trauma from her past has come up and it all relates back to her childhood. I am the one who wants to save the marriage as well. I hope one day she will really see who I am. I have been supporting her emotionaly through this long 9 months and it has been very hard. I am trying to work on it. She had the affair and I am the one trying to work things out? Sounds strange? feels strange!
This all so sucks on the hurt that is caused by another person. I am trying to hang on, you hang on too.<p>Slopoke

Thanks, my friends, for your responses.<p>Lupo & Dave,<p>Yes, I did let it get to me. I guess I should know better. She even went as far last night to tell me that the only way I might get it is if she has me served. Like that is ever going to happen. Even if it did, she would have so much to lose. She just doesn't see it that way.<p>I'm going to try and offer a compromise to her tonight. We'll all be together at her folks place, opening gifts from her side of the family. Since tomorrow is Christmas Eve and we have no plans, I'm going to ask my daughters if they would like to open gifts here. Mom will be invited , of course. Then we could have Christmas breakfeast at her place like she wanted. We could even save a few gifts to be opened there. The only problem is that she has become so spiteful about this that I doubt she will go along.<p>She is also upset about the Plan A letter I sent her with flowers the other day. Believe me, there was nothing in it that any rational person would be upset about. I even took out the parts that sounded like I was putting words in her mouth like Dave suggested. All it was about is how much I still loved her, why I was doing all the counseling with Steve, and how much I wanted to make these changes not just to get back together. I'm making them for me. She has grown ballistic about this. I'm wasting my time. It'll never happen. It will...well, you get it.

Real simple here. The answer is YES! Just takes time and patience. Not what you wanted to hear I'm sure but that's how it works. In the meantime I'm working an a magic pill for the problem.

AH:<p>The short answer is no: one person cannot restore or recover the marriage.<p>One person, however, can set the pace via Plan A (or Plan B, should it be necessary), to allow the WS the path back. You can extend the hand: whether or not she accepts it is a concious choice she must make; and it will be a choice made, based in part, on the effectiveness of Plan A and/or B.<p>Beyond that, however, the long-term reality is that it takes 100-percent commitment from both partners to recover and restore a marriage.<p>How long you extend that hand, and thus offer the road to marital recovery is your choice. Everyone has different tolerance levels in this regard. Which is why Dr. Harley prescribes no absolute length of time for Plans A and B.<p>Godspeed and a safe and happy holiday season,
STL

Dear AH, <p>I am sorry your W is putting up such strong A -walls. The fact that she can say she wonders if she ever loved you would be enough to send me to consider the info in the book "Love must be tough" by Dr. James Dobson. <p>Something similar happened to me. My H kept babble as such and I put up with it until I couldn't stand it anymore and told him.... ok then go.... be with Mrs PB Rabbit.... let's close this door to your family, throw us out on the street (because that is just what would happen), get the divorce, give me all the money you 'stole' from me to carry on your A (by me having to pay his bills that were on accounts in both our names - he got credit cards that way without my knowledge), etc. Then I would just say, ok to most of his babble. <p>ex:
WS: I want a D.
BS: ok.
WS: I don't want a D.
BS: ok.
WS: I care about you but I don't love you.
BS: ok
WS: I love OW
BS: ok (given with that disgusted look :anger [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
WS: I don't want to feel guilty
BS: ok
WS: I want to come home
BS: Hm.... let me think abou that. I'll get back
to you.<p>I have spoken to the wall, turned blaize, got suicidal, got behind on my bills, lost sleep, lost weight, gain several gray hairs, stressed at work, home and everywhere else, tolerate a lot less, had anxiety attacks,etc. <p>After all has bene said and done up to this point, there are only a few things that I am sticking to.<p>1. OW must be out of my life and those I live
with. <p>2. Honesty, love and truth along with loyalty must
be praticed by each family member. <p>3. Relationship with God must be reaestablished
by each family member. On their own. <p>So my advice, define your goals and boundaries. The rest will fall into place. Believe or not. <p>L.

STL-<p>I think your answer is still basically the same as the others. It is still that one person who can do an effective enough Plan A or B long enough if and when the WS ever comes around. Yes, it takes two to commit (or recommit) to the marriage. But it has to start with one person wanting to save the marriage.<p>In my case, I'm getting a lot of hostility from my wife when I tell her how I feel. Like Lupo said, anger is a good thing. It is bringing her back in conflict. If she was in the withdrawal state she wouldn't care how I feel and wouldn't react at all. At this point, she wants me to react with return hostility, and I ain't going to do it! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I realize that there is a chance that nothing will ever come from my efforts. But the way I figure it, as long as I don't let my expectations get the best of me, I'm not losing anything by trying. <p>By the way, my compromise worked tonight. She will come home tomorrow night for Christmas Eve. We will go to her place for Christmas morning breakfeast. I was even able to get my oldest daughter to offer to help her mom that morning [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . My wife accepted.<p>So I do believe there is some room to work here...

AH,<p>Glad that things sound better tonight for you and the WW went for the compromise!!<p>Yes that anger of hers is a sign that she is at least communicating about the marriage. Definately better then nothing!!<p>Dawn

AH - responding to your question to me on my recent post. Can't discuss it on the forum. E-mail me at DCScandals@yahoo.com so I can reply.<p>WAT

Just to say that I am living exactly the same thing. It just happened with no apparent reason, no warning, no nothing. <p>We've talked and even when now I know we both made mistakes and we both got 'dull' my W says it is all my fault<p>She tells me that looks at me like her brother, that she cares for me but she does not love me like a H, etc, etc. I do not get angry anymore and that makes things worse. She tries to humiliate me in every possible way (and sometimes she does, but I try not to loose it).<p>She has being going out (wit h/friends) every night for the last 3 weeks. She says she wants to have fun and be 'free'. I've been trying plan A and I do not know if it is working or not (since I don't ask)<p>She finally agreed on going to counseling (but after the holidays.... since right know she is too busy having fun) I don't know if I should keep hoping but in the mean time you could easily imagine how I feel .<p>Good luck to everyone

Salasad-<p>I hear you on the "brother" bit. I've heard that one many times myself. Again, it means very little. Just adding to the justification on the WS part.<p>You also sound like you have a problem with Plan A and how it affects your self esteem. I think all of us BS wonder about that. Especially as you go longer into the plan. I talked to Steve Harley about that. You may want to do the same. It helps...