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#2937038 12/24/01 09:33 PM
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sad dad Offline OP
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I just searched some old posts about "denial" and found several of your old threads. WAT knows my situation (I think), and I know both of yours.<p>My W, like your's, has denied her EA (possible PA) since I confronted her 8 months ago. Over the months, I've presented her with evidence (some, but not all) and she's denied it all along. I haven't mentioned OM in 4 months because it was pointless. I've kept quiet hoping it would run it's course. All along she kept saying she wanted a D. Well, early in November she finally filed.
Funny thing is, since she filed she has not mentioned it once except for asking for my lawyers address. No talk of selling the house, who gets what, living arrangements, interim custody arrangements, etc. She almost seems to have an air of relief, as if the hard part is over. The hard part is just starting. We're still living in the same house, sharing finances, seeing our daughter just as much. Her life hasn't changed at all, except some paperwork was filed.<p>Anyway, I went today to see my lawyer and go over the paperwork. There are several points of contention, most importantly her grounds, mental cruelty (isn't that the pot calling the kettle black...). <p>On Steve Harley's advice, I counterfiled on the grounds of adultery and mental cruelty. He too believes she is in denial and that this may be what I need to do for her to "see the light". If nothing else, I should be able to get the truth and that may give me the peace of mind I need to move on if it doesn't change anything. I she confronts me about this (which I doubt), Steve's advice is to tell her that I still love her, I still believe in our marriage, but whatever happens I need to know the truth. I know this is a risky step to take, but she has denied it to me, her family, our friends and possibly to herself. I don't see that I have any other choice. I will say that doing this has helped my self esteem. I'm no longer going to be a doormat.
The power has been so much in her favor for so long and a marriage cannot survive that way. I could do nothing and hope something changes, but I believe she needs a wake up call. However I'm feel like inevitably I will end up in your respective situations. At least I can say I went out fighting. <p>Have a nice xmas!!!<p>sad dad

#2937039 12/24/01 09:45 PM
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HI Sad Dad, I know your sadness... it is really bad when they just keep lying and start to believe their own lies... HONESTY heals. I am very honest and open and I do not like being taken advantage of... like you. I know what you mean about going out fighting.<p>COUNTERFILE- sounds like a good idea... I think I will be doing the same if my crzed WH files... which at this point... I do not like this kind of a marriage, and I am really tired of the way he treats me anyway... I am very very tired of all of this crap.<p>So sorry to hear that your wife will not face what she is doing... <p>My prayers are with you. HONEY

#2937040 12/24/01 09:57 PM
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Sad Dad,<p>I have just a small offering regarding her filing wihout doing anything else.<p>I say she did it to appease the OM. IMHO OM is pressuring her, so to keep things status quo, she filed but was careful not to go any further hoping OM will be satisfied with that.<p>Convo between W and OM:<p>OM: Did you finally file?<p>W: Yes, I did, just like I told you I would,<p>W: The D process can be quite lengthy, no real solid date for finality.<p>OM: Ughhhhh<p>She's Fence sitting with a piece of paper in her hands that only means something to OM.<p>Unbelievable how these OP push, manipulate and coerce them to do things they are not sure of doing.<p>I get the distinct feeling of OP's pathetic desperation to steel something not belonging to them before the WS starts thinking on their own. Like brainwashing ..... LOVE? I think not.<p>Jo

#2937041 12/24/01 11:09 PM
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honey,<p>I wasn't sure about counterfiling when Steve first brought it up, but I can see the point now. She has no reason to face the truth unless it's forced upon her.<p>resilient,<p>"Lifeismessy" shares your belief that OM may be pressuring her, a "sh*t or get off the pot" ultimatum. Can't say I blame him, he's probably getting impatient waiting for me to be out of the way. Unless I'm incorrect, I have to counterfile when I respond to her filing, and I have 28 days after I receive the paperwork, which was 2 weeks ago. I don't think I can counter at a later date, and there's really no point waiting. This may not change the outcome, but neither of them will get out unscarred. He's named on my complaint.<p>I've got to be careful to handle this in a very non-LB way and make sure she knows this something I need to do to for my own peace of mind, not an attempt to throw a monkey wrench into their plans, although it is. Also, according to "lifeismessy", this may win some of my W's respect back, knowing I'm not going to just roll over. I'm sure she has little respect for me at this point.<p>Funny thing just happened. W's at her sister's house 40 miles away and her power steering went out. Who does she call to find out what to do? Me, of course! Her uncle is driving her home, but she could have figured that one out by herself without waking me up. She still needs me, just won't admit it!<p>Oh well, back to bed! Have a nice xmas!!!!!<p>sad dad<p>[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

#2937042 12/25/01 08:17 AM
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Merry Christmas, sad dad.<p>Yea, it's become a cliche' - Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.<p>Forgive me if I don't discuss my situation in detail here.<p>I understand Steve's logic, but I don't believe you alone can do anything to get her to see the light. Counterfiling on the basis of adultery, IMHO, will not phase her until she transports back from the Mothership, if ever. This assumes, of course, that she follows thru with the divorce. What I mean is that if the divorce continues on and you counterfile for adultery, it may not hit home until much later after she retrieves her brains. I'm not sure of the legal issues, but make sure your lawyer can prove it, otherwise, if it gets denied on that basis it'll support her denial.<p>I recommend you continue your silence regarding OM, and the affair in general. You know it's true and she knows it a some level, although perhaps suppressed. Certainly she doesn't refer to it to herself as an "affair" - likely using some other Clintonian terminology that depends on what the definition of "is" is. IMHO, "denial" of this depth requires some serious mental contortions that have the affect of self brain washing. I'm not a shrink, so I may be doing some contortions of my own, but the term "aggressively delusional" keeps popping into my vocabulary. <p>My point is that you don't need to prove anything to yourself, so perhaps you should stop trying to prove anything to anybody else. Recall recently that after the showing of the bin Laden video, no one's mind was changed regarding his involvement in the Sept. 11 attacks. Deniers kept denying and believers kept believing.<p>I do believe that divorce has much more power to the WS than the BS - by this, I mean it is more apt to represent to the WS a problem solved. To rational thinkers, divorce solves no problems, it just permits some to freely run from them.<p>I hope you're able to put on some smiles today for the young ones.<p>WAT<p>[ December 25, 2001: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

#2937043 12/25/01 11:45 AM
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WAT,<p>I understand your rationale. Now I'll offer mine. I cannot prove adultery, i.e. I haven't caught them in the act. However, if I'm correct, I have to counterfile when I respond to her complaint. I cannot do it at a later date. I'll clarify this with my lawyer. If I don't counterfile and only contest her grounds, I'm not allowing her the freedom to leave. By counterfiling, she has the freedom to leave if she accepts my terms, which is unlikely. I think this is the best way for me to stretch this whole process out. Nothing is likely to change unless they are both smacked with a dose of reality.<p>Also, by counterfiling, there are legal things my lawyer can do to get the info I need, such as supoenaing (sp?) phone records, deposing her, OM, friends, etc. I may call my lawyer and clarify if I can counterfile at a later date or at least delay my reponse until I get a chance to talk with Steve Harley again. <p>As I said, I understand your rationale and understand why you and Rick37 handled your situations the way you have, but where has it gotten you? Please don't take offense to that. Everybody handles things things the way they see best. Your situations are different in that your W's left and the A's were obvious to you and everyone else. <p>Have a nice Xmas!!!<p>sad dad<p>[ December 25, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

#2937044 12/26/01 04:11 PM
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Sad Dad-<p>I'm not sure what you need for proof in your state. My wife admitted her affair in the beginning and has evolved over the past year like she never did it. She and the OP actually admitted it to the OP's spouse at the same time. According to my lawyer, that would be all I need to prove adultry. The nice part about it is that if I filed (or more likely counterfiled), the OP gets served as well. It then becomes part of public record. But that's as far as it goes. Adultry means nothing when it comes to who was at fault, custody, or anything else in my state. Because my wife and the OP work together for a small company, it would cause them severe problems at work.<p>Good luck, we all know how you feel...

#2937045 12/27/01 06:24 AM
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always hopeful,<p>I don't know what proof I need legally and it doesn't really matter. I just want to get the info I need for my own peace of mind. Not that I have any doubts, I just need some affirmation.
At times I still find myself saying she couldn't do this, I've got to be wrong. But I know I'm not.
I can accept my marriage being over, it's an unfortunate part of life. I cannot accept the truth not being known. Knowing the truth will making the healing process easier because I won't have to live with constantly questioning myself.<p>sad dad

#2937046 12/27/01 10:41 PM
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I just saw your thread.<p>In my case, I presented some evidence to my wife verbally, but apparently not enough to ever get her to admit that it was true. She also told me once that "you will never hear me admit that any of this is true". Recently, she told someone that after her and OM being friends for so long, they went on a date, the first one ever. She is attempting to create an illusion and hoping everyone believes it. No one that knows me believes it, but at the same time, no one calls her bluff either.<p>I've been more leary than most of blowing it all out in the open the the max. because of our rather amicable financial arrangements. She hasn't asked for what she might be able to obtain legally. Sometimes I feel like saying the heck with it and taking my chances (ie. file for adultery), but that would be for my satisfaction, and to cause problems for OM (public record etc.).<p>Having said all that, I have always planned on letting her know much more of what I know, and how I know, but currently plan on waiting until we are divorced. I want that to go smoothly first. What she may not realize, and maybe she doesn't care, is that before OM is ever presented to me officially as her boyfriend, and before there is ever a public appearance of any sort that would see me an OM in the same place at the same time, I will have a discussion with OM to ensure that he is aware of many things, most of all just that I am aware of the truth, and I will let him know that I have or had the option of filing for adultery and that he is an adulterer. One thing I simply cannot do, is play the cherade by just accepting him as my wife's significant other and pretending that this was not an affair.<p>It might seem odd that I'm waiting to do all this, but if I just leave it be for now, my lifestyle stays much the same as before, the kids are happy in their home, it is a great location, we have great friends, and there are just advantages to not stirring the pot.<p>Even though I have said in my recent post that I'm at peace with things, it doesn't mean that it doesn't drive me crazy that the truth isn't out in the open. But I'll take care of that when the time is right. What would have happened if I had done it much earlier doesn't matter to me anymore, because I see my wife for who she is, and to be honest, I don't want her anymore. I want to meet someone that wants to operate as a unit together, and actually work together to build a great relationship. That isn't how she operates.<p>Sorry for the long post. I might be off on a tangent.<p>I'll be interested to hear about the ability to counter file at a later date. I haven't looked into this alot, but the instant I get papers (soon apparently) I'm going to be checking into all options, including filing for adultery. I just want to see what she has proposed first.<p>Sometimes when I see people wondering about showing evidence now, I immediately think that they should go all out and present it all, because I let my wife continue her cherade and it continues on. I must say though, that I gave her enough evidence to indicate that I know rather secret details of their relationship, but she just denies it, as many do...so maybe she would regardless of what I have.<p>If we had equal incomes, I'd have done it different. But mine is higher, so I stand to lose if it gets nasty. Sounds crazy but you've got to consider all aspects before making a decision, and that is what I have constantly done. I don't know if I've done it right, but I know that I'll move forward and find happiness.

#2937047 12/28/01 06:30 AM
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Rick,<p>I understand where you're coming from. I've debated the validity of counterfiling for months, but have finally decided that I have nothing to lose. I have long and short term goals that I hope to accomplish my doing this. My long term goal is to stir things up a bit, hopefully allow some reality to creep in and see if the fog begins to lift. This is necessary if our marriage is to have a chance. My short term goals are simple. First, by counterfiling, it allows my lawyer to get info that I need for my own peace of mind. It may not have any legal importance, but it will satisify my need to know. Secondly, the info I have along with the info I get may help get the real reason for the D on record if it goes that far. Her grounds were mental cruelty, and I just can't live with that being the grounds for our D when I know OM is the catalyst behind this. <p>Hopefully you understand my motivation and reasoning. I know I'm pushing the envelope here, but I think I've got to take a stand and try to regain some self respect. My marriage can only be saved if my W wants it to be. I realize that. If she chooses to proceed with the D, at least she'll be doing so with all the cards on the table.<p>sad dad


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