(I'm posting this on the Recovery board also.)<p>Hope everyone had a nice Christmas! I apologize if this gets too long! I've been reluctant to post about some of these things in case my H or OW visit this site, but things need to change and I'd like some opinions. My H still works with OW, but things between my H and me seemed to be going pretty well. We had been enjoying lots of family time together with our kids, had a nice little vacation by ourselves to Chicago and we just seemed to be getting along well. I thought this was going to be our best Christmas ever! I had discovered a message that H had sent OW back in November that said he was thinking about her, but that was it...nothing mushy, no "love you's". So I figured he just feels bad about her being alone for the holidays and was sending her a friendly greeting. Her teenage daughter died a little over a year ago and my H has said that the holidays are hard for her. And I know that she has recently seperated from her H and moved into an apartment. So, in addition to not having my H anymore I am sure she is lonely! Anyway, I dismissed this message because our relationship has really improved.<p>This is where I need to reveal some information that my H doesn't know that I know. When he moved out for 2 months over the summer he got himself a P.O. box. Since then I have discovered that he has his own personal credit card that he owed $1600. I went online to check purchases and found that he had not really used it since before d-day. I didn't tell him that I know about it. Decided it was in the past and I can't change it, plus I knew he would have to struggle to get it paid off. (He has his own personal cheking account that he uses just for spending money and we only put $120 in it every 2 weeks.) I did discover however, that he used this charge card to make a LARGE purchase at a paintball store. It does not upset me that he spent this kind of money on paintball because I do want him to have a hobby and enjoy some of his time off (even though we could have bought new furniture for the $ he spent!), but I am upset that he is hiding it from me! But I didn't confront him about it because I wanted to see if he would get through the holidays without making any additional purchases for the OW.<p>I guess you all know where this is headed...I checked his credit card again and he purchased some jewelry that I did not receive for Christmas. I knew that I would not receive it because everything he buys for me goes on our joint credit card. So now I need to confront him with this information. I'm going to ask him what his intentions are for the future, and tell him that he needs to end his "relationship" with the OW. I don't think the PA has resumed but he needs to end this emotional attachment if we are going to save our marriage! I'm also going to tell him I need him to be honest with me and no more secrets. I will tell him he needs to cancel his P.O. box and send his credit card and banking statements here at home. I will also ask again if the OW will be transferring and repeat that I don't think they can continue to work together. I'm even considering that maybe we need to move and that is something that I never thought I would say. I love where I live and want my children to know their grandparents and other extended family members. I also enjoy my job and the people I work with. I would HATE to move, but something has to change. If my H doesn't give me an answer about whether or not the OW will be transferring, I may go talk to her about it and ask her intentions. (I know, she's not worth it, don't even give her a second thought...but I want to know if she is not planning on going away then maybe we need to!)<p>I know my H will be angry because of the demands I will make, but he will be even more angry about the snooping. Yes, I am scared. Maybe I won't get past the first sentence when I ask what his intentions are for the future. If he does not intend to stay with me, then I won't need to make demands. It just seemed like we were headed in the right direction. My problem is that after I have this discussion with him he will know about the snooping and will be more careful and hide everything. I'm afraid to reveal all my secrets because then I won't be able to monitor him and know what is going on.<p>So all of you recovered spouses, have you been through this? Is this normal? I've heard of many people returning to the A partner, but how many spouses just won't stop the emotional relationship? D-day was in mid-May and my H moved out for 2 months. He has been home since August. I know the Harley's say that most A's die out after 6 months...does that include the emotional attachment? <p>Any response would be greatly appreciated because I need to have this conversation with my H soon, maybe tonight!<p>Thanks, Heck

Heck - I don't have any direct experience for this question, but I'm wondering if you two are/have 1)in counseling, 2)implemented POJA, and 3) sent no contact letter?<p>I apologize for not knowing your complete status.<p>I will offer that OW may be in a similar state as my W - lost a child and is self-medicating via an affair instead of resolving her grief. If this is the case - and you may not be able to fully know - you may make some progress with your H to communicate to him that he may be nothing more than a placibo, so to speak. I know, I know - this requires him to think rationally, which he may not be able to with his brains on the Mothership, but if he's close to severing contact, notwithstanding buying her a gift, this could contribute to him fetching his brains.

Hi WAT,<p>As far as counseling, no, we are not currently. H saw an individual counselor when we were seperated this summer and I told him if he came back home then we would have to do joint counseling. But it is hard to find a good counselor. We did go see his therapist for one session, but the therapist did not seem to think there was a problem with my H continuing to work with OW. My H even pointed out to him that most professionals say you should treat it like an addiction and do the no contact thing. But my H wasn't ready to do the no contact thing, and I wasn't ready for Plan B. He made it clear that he was not going to give up his job at that point. (He did tell me shortly after d-day that if we were to work things out that he thought OW would probably transfer.) I am thinking about conatacting the Harley's and setting up counseling for myself, and would like my H to eventually join me, but I don't know that he will. I think he would feel like I am trying to "trap" him.<p>As far as POJA. Well, we can't get past the work issue so the POJA thing just ins't going to happen.<p>And their is no point in sending a no contact letter if he is going to continue working with her everyday. He could send some sort of a "dear John" letter, but as long as he works with her we will continue to have these problems.<p>I don't think the OW is self-medicating herself via an affair. I think that their emotional connection started a while back (they have worked together for 6 years) but I do believe that the death of her daughter is what brought her and my H closer. She was in a troubled marriage and misery loves company. (Her H even had an affair earlier in their marriage.) My H helped her and her family get through the death of her daughter and he was there for her when her H just shut down. I think her life has been pretty ****ty and spending time with my H has made her feel better. ICK! <p>And though I have felt like my H is trying to stay with me and the girls and make our M work, I do not feel like he is close to severing contact with the OW. I think he feels like it would be too much to give up this "friendship" and I'm sure he would like to keep her around as a safety net in case things don't work out for us. So now I am even more confused. I feel like we are headed in the right direction but that we won't be able to turn this corner until he stops working with her. Yet I feel like we have made too much progress to go to Plan B. I think that is why I need to speak to the Harley's. I don't know what my next step should be.<p>Thanks, Heck

Heck - I recommend you give Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers a try just yourself. Ask them what you should say to your H about doing this. If your H will cooperate ahead of time, get him to fill out the EN questionaire - Steve will ask you to do this, so you may as well be ready.<p>Everything you describe is right from the script. Steve will say this is a classic, classic affair. Stay the course and work Plan A. You sound strong and well aware of where you're at.<p>Good luck,
WAT

H:<p>How do you know for sure he purchased Jewlery??
Is there any way of getting more facts? So he can't make up some story?<p>Just wondering...<p>L

Thanks WAT! From what I remember from your previos posts I thought you would be preaching to me that it is time for Plan B. I do want to talk to Steve or Jennifer, but don't know if I will be able to do that before I need to have this discussion with my H. I want to start off the New Year knowing where my marriage is headed. (Don't we all!) Maybe I can have a gentle relationship conversation with my H and tell him there are things we need to resolve but that I want to counsel with the Harley's before I proceed with the heavy stuff.<p>Louser - I started to reply to you then had to do a double-check to make sure you were not my H's OW. LOL ~ see how paranoid I have become! I've snooped well enough to be able to look at his credit card statement online. And on Decemer 19 their was a purchase at a Famous Barr jewelry counter at the mall close to his office. (This showed up under unbilled activity.) He could try to make up a story, but he should not even have this "secret" credit card. All of the gifts that he purchases for me go on our joint credit card.<p>Thanks,Heck

If I could just add one thing. Be careful about confronting H with the information you have concerning the PO box and credit card. He can agree to what you ask but then get another credit card and PO box without you knowing it. I would continue snooping and just sit on this information, at least you will be able to verify if he has been telling the truth or not about seeing OW. There may even be a way for you to work this information into a conversation without him knowing you know what you know. If he makes such a large purchase, how can he think he will pay that card off without you knowing it? Seems like eventually the information you know about will come to light anyway.

loveherstill,<p>How long am I supposed to sit on this information? He has been home since the beginning of August. I don't know how he plans to pay all this off. He does not really have good financial sense. We make good money so he thinks he can buy whatever he wants. I think he was planning on using his personal checking account to pay it off slowly, but it would take a while. Since then he has been taking more money out of our checking account and has even hit our savings. I could tell him we need to sit down and come up with a budget, and ask why he is taking money out of our checking and savings account if he already has an account set up for spending money...but I am tired of all the secrets. And I don't want to be keeping secrets from him that I know about his secrets. And I don't want him spending anymore of "our" money on the OW!!!<p>Heck

I've shared a bit of my sales training a few times here - works better in relationships than in making me money sometimes.<p>Two skills are at work here: "How to tell someone the hard truth" and "Third Party Stories". A third skill is basically a version of Plan A. It's called, "Keep them O.K."<p>Third party stories are a way of telling someone what they need to hear, only as if it were coming from someone else. For example, "Dear Husband, you and I have been working on restoring trust since things fell apart last summer. But I have to tell you I'm scared. In my studying so that I can correct the behaviors I do wrong that undermine our marriage, I came across something that has me unable to sleep. So-and-so's husband had an affair, and his ex OW sent him a Christmas present and also sent him an e-mail with a wish list for what he could give her for Christmas too. <p>"The marriages I have seen fall apart have secrets. Little things like phone cards, or secret credit cards, but some have BIG secrets like setting up secret addresses... and the impact on their marriage has been pretty tough. <p>"Can we impliment a plan of radical honesty so that I can start working on my trust skills again, and so that your need to be trusted can be met by me? I want you to feel safe telling me stuff in the clean up process, so I need you to tell me how you need me to respond to things you need to tell me..."<p>In other words, you use someone else's experience, and sculpt the presentation so that he feels safe while confronting a distressing situation (getting caught). The goal is to make it safe for him to come clean.<p>There's a strong likelihood that you need to tell him the truth, and he's not going to like it. So what if he gives you permission to tell him the truth first. Can he get angry then?<p>The four steps to tell him the truth are:<p>1. Get Permission. "Can I tell you something straight up?"<p>2. Struggle. "Gee. This is harder than I thought it would be. ummm. well... I'm not sure I can tell you this without you getting really mad at me..." Only once they become concerned with making you feel safe in telling them the truth, do you actually "work up the courage" to do it.<p>3. Tell the truth. Pull no punches. Just straight up. "I went looking and found more than I wanted to find. I know you've been spending money out of our savings, to cover purchases that didn't come to our family. With the track record, and the current working situation, it's really hard for me to not jump to any conclusions about you hiding things from me that involve someone who is not a part of our family. Can you tell me how I can do better to support you, so that you feel safe telling me all the truth, and so that we can assuredly face any difficulty together instead of as adversaries?<p>4. Deal with the consequences.<p>I don't know if this will help you or not. Let me know if you try it.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong><p>The four steps to tell him the truth are:<p>1. Get Permission. "Can I tell you something straight up?"<p>2. Struggle. "Gee. This is harder than I thought it would be. ummm. well... I'm not sure I can tell you this without you getting really mad at me..." Only once they become concerned with making you feel safe in telling them the truth, do you actually "work up the courage" to do it.<p>3. Tell the truth. Pull no punches. Just straight up. "I went looking and found more than I wanted to find. I know you've been spending money out of our savings, to cover purchases that didn't come to our family. With the track record, and the current working situation, it's really hard for me to not jump to any conclusions about you hiding things from me that involve someone who is not a part of our family. Can you tell me how I can do better to support you, so that you feel safe telling me all the truth, and so that we can assuredly face any difficulty together instead of as adversaries?<p>4. Deal with the consequences.<p>I don't know if this will help you or not. Let me know if you try it.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think this is good advice. My H caught me snooping plenty of times (many times I told him I did it. The only time he ever got mad was when he actually did have something to hide. After the A was over he totally understood why I would snoop and why I would question things. Afew times I kind of made a fool out of myslef questioning things that were legitimate, non OW related things (with definitive proof of course).
I shoudl add that I never divulged my sources of information. During the A he had plenty of conflicting stories (since he never admitted to the A until after it was over), but being the good little Plan A'er I never confronted him with any of them. After D-day there were things he tried to deny (by this time I'd become a detective) and I woudl simply say "Stop. I know for a fact that isn't the truth. It doesn't matter how I know, but I know, so let's not take this any further." If he asked how I knew something, I woudlnt' tell. Or I would give a cryptic answer like "It's amazing what you can find out on the internet if you know where to look and who to ask." It threw him offtrack, when I very well might just have found a receipt in his desk or something. That won't work of course if your WS is a computer genius.<p>[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: fairydust ]</p>

I guess when it comes to money that may not be the best advice. I was just trying to relate my experience when W found out I had installed a snooping program on the computer and was reading her emails. W stopped using the computer and got a cell phone, which she protects like a baby. I guess what I was trying to say is that if WS knows how you found out some information, he will switch tatics to stay one step ahead of you.<p>But, if he is taking money from the family and spending it on OM, that is just plain WRONG. How can anyone justify that kind of self-centered action? W and I filed separation papers and part of it states that all financial transactions need to be accounted for. This is a standard state rule that protects each spouse from the other doing something stupid (like spending money on OP). We also have separate checking accounts for the same reason. You may want to consider this option, just a thought. In the mean time, see what legal actions you have and hang on to those receipts and such, you may need them later on, I pray that you don't though. <p>I like your idea about the budget, especially if you can say it costs us this much to live each month and we only have so much coming in. Then you can hit him with "why did you need to make this withdrawl, how come you can't live on the budget that you have right now?" Then he will have to account for it. I wish there was an easy answer for you, but either way seems to have its own set of problems.<p>Whenever I catch WS in what I know to be a lie, I simply tell her that God will always reveal the truth, if He hasn't already. Then I just sit back and let her conscience do the rest.<p>Stay strong.

First off, heckofagal, people who have nothing to hide don't get angry when someone checks on them. They welcome it. They gladly open the books. The tragedy here is that you were put in this position in the first place. This is the downside of settling for an untrustworthy person.<p>Further, he has no right to know your source of information. Just let him know that you are aware of the P.O. box, the credit card and his recent jewelry purchases and leave it at that. He already knows it's true. <p>I would simply tell him WHAT you know and if he wants to know HOW you know, tell him that you will not dilvulge it. You don't have to tell him and I wouldn't. Your first responsibility is to protect yourself since it doesn't seem that he has your best interest at heart. And if he brings up the bogus "privacy" argument, remind him that a spouse is not entitled to the "privacy" to destroy thier spouse.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> And if he brings up the bogus "privacy" argument, remind him that a spouse is not entitled to the "privacy" to destroy thier spouse.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree. My H realized that he lost his right to "privacy" and having female "friends" when he had an A. His only need for that kind of privacy was to have an affair with his "friend".

Well, I now know that he bought her a Seiko watch. I sure could have used a new watch! I'm planning on having a discussion with my H in the next couple of days and ask what his plans are for 2002. I'm assuming that he is planning on being here with me and the kids, and will tell him that his relationship with her needs to end then! I will tell him I know about her present, about his credit card and the P.O. Box. and will ask him to have all his statements mailed here at home. Will again discuss the work situation and see if it is possible for one of them to transfer. Wish me luck! I'm so scared!

Well, I asked my H his intentions for 2002. Told him if he plans to stay here then he needs to end his relationship with the OW. Told him I know about her Christmas present. At one point he said he does not know what he wants to do. He agreed that things have been better with us. I told him things will not get better as long as he is working with her and asked if he thought she might transfer. (Maybe, but not until her son finished school in May.) I told him I've even thought that maybe it is time for us to transfer. And he must know how desperate I am now because he knows how much I would HATE to do that. I want my kids to grow up around their family. Told him I know about his secret credit card and asked him if he would have his credit card and banking statements mailed here to our house. He said "We'll see."<p>And now he is gone to work with her ALL day! GREAT!!! I think he thought he could keep his wife and kids at home then go to work and have his "friendship" (EA)with her. Nope! Now I'm afraid that he is going to freak out and fear "losing" her and will start to cling to her. <p>I've thought about going to visit OW (even though I know everyone here thinks that is a bad idea). But I want to know if she is ever going to transfer. If not, then I need to push my H to transfer, get a different job here or move out. (Won't tell her about the move out option.) I've been thinking maybe I should just send her an email, then I would be able to say all the things I need to say. And if she does not respond to the emai (which I'm sure she won't) then I could call her and ask if she plans on moving.<p>Help! Any suggestions? Happy New Year ~ huh?

Why is it that you feel the only way for you and your husband to have a successful marriage is for her to be in another town? If he is still involved with her and only gives her up because of logistics, what does that win you?
Focus on you, not her.

Never tell a thief your plans. Same goes for OWs. They will not appreciate your sarcasm or kindness. They can't tell the difference. So don't throw you pearls before those who don't appreciate it's value (family value). <p>L.

Wiffle - I truly think my H wants to save our M and stay here with me and our children, but seeing her everyday is too hard on him. I think he can't get through that withdrawal phase because he sees her everyday. And this is not a large corporate office, this is a small intimate department that spends way over 40 hrs a week together.<p>Oh Orchid - I'm just tired of all this and want to get on with our future. And this OW is not the witch that so many of you talk about. I guess I was hoping to play on her sympathy. She has been in my shoes before (her H had an A on her years ago). And to be honest the email would also tell her that my H and I are doing well and that our relationship is improving. Not to rub it in, but just so she knows, as I am sure he is lying to her too. I know, you will think it is a bad idea. But hey, the OW does know the value of my family...that is why she was after my H and kids!