So...my W (WS) has confirmed to me that she is definitely moving out again. She has an apartment and now wants to sort out financial matters, furniture etc... We were separated for five months (March-Aug) following d-day.<p>Now she says it is not about any other person (the last separation was, she says) it's about trying to find out what makes her happy. I am pretty much convinced that OM is out of the picture...(I know a lot of you think he is still around, but I am pretty sure he isn't so, if you can, accept that premise with me for the moment and react to what what she is telling me with that in mind) <p>She says that maybe she needs to have this separation to truly find out that she can't live without me...to allow herself to know that I am too important to her to divorce... That maybe the passion for "us" will return. She says right now she doesn't know how to get those feelings (of love, caring, compassion etc.) back. <p>She says we are both unhappy (true we are, but I am mostly unhappy because she is and isn't able to work thru her feelings) and that a separation now might be the best thing.<p>So OK...how do I handle it?<p>First the pragmatic...<p>1. Do I help her move? She says he has no friends, no truck and no way of moving stuff without hiring a mover. Swell, I sure want the movers hauling stuff from our house to ap't... [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] On the other hand she says she will figure it out and doesn't really want my help. Should I still try to help her or just let her deal with it.<p>2. If she deals with it she wants to know if I want to just be gone for awhile and she moves her stuff then I can come home...I am not sure what I think about this...<p>3. Do I keep in contact with her? Plan B? Some modified plan A or just wait for her to contact me? <p>4. How do I get thru this emotionally? The first time was bad enough and even though that made me stronger---this is still gonna be hard to deal with...<p>Lotsa questions...no answers...<p>Help if you can... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (specially if you have gone thru false recovery and/or more than one separation...) <p>Thanks<p>E

I would say to be totally honest with her. <p>I wouldn't help her move out and I wouldn't make special plans to be gone when she does if she does.<p>I wouldn't initiate any contact if she does move out. She says she wants space. Give her space. Don't LB but at same time don't do something you are not happy or comfortable with. She wants to do things for her. You do things for you. Let her see that you are going to continue to live and be happy with or without her.

Elad,<p>Before I answer your question I need to know ... How long in Plan A, and do you feel your changes were recognized by your wife?<p>Jo

Jo<p>Plan A began following EA d-day in February...continued thru PA d-day in March and the five month separation...<p>I think she has noticed some changes (stronger, less needy etc)...but doesn't say much about them. She talks more about how she has changes int he past several years --more confident, more in control etc...<p>E

Well, IMHO sounds like you've been in Plan A more than 6 mos. At this stage I say you go to Plan B. And here's how I'd approach it.<p>I WOULD help her move. I'd be extra giving and helpful up to that point. Once she is all settled ... I'd implement Plan B. And a good solid Plan B, NO CONTACT.<p>Do you have a Plan B letter ready?<p>But Elad, to help you know you're doing what is best at this point, why don't you give the Harleys' a call and counsel with Jenn or Steve.<p>I really think it's time to make a change. It does sound like you're losing love for your W. But, you're the only one who knows. <p>As far as getting thru this emotionally, are you taking anti-deps. Please look into it, it really helped me. Without them I don't know where I'd be.<p>BTW: I really do believe there is still contact between your W and OM. I'm sorry for saying that ELad, I know it hurts, but everthing points to it.<p>Let us know what you decide to do. We're here for you.
Jo<p>[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

And Elad,<p>In case I didn't say it, I'm really sorry you're having to do this again. I know how hard you've tried, I know how gut wrenching this has been for you. You deserve better.<p>Lets see what the Harley's say. But I truly believe Plan B is in order. <p>Please be well and take care of yourself.<p>Love,
Jo

Elad - I'll go along with your premise, but I think she's zoomin' you. How does the passion for "us" return when "us" is separated?<p>Well, if OM is really gone, Plan B has been satisfied, right? So stick with Plan A as a minimum, IMHO. For you now, this may just be the avoidance of LBs unless you can find more self-improvements.<p>If she wants to move out, you cannot stop her. I suggest you gently presuade her that to figure out what she wants, that the better way is to work together in counseling. Of course, she won't go for this because this is not her real reason for leaving.<p>So, cooperate in sorting out finances and what she can take, but then I suggest you leave her to her own devices and not shelter her from the consequences of her decisions - in other words, don't stand in her way, but don't go out of you way to help her, either.

OK, I see Jo and I disagree on Plan B - supports her suggestion to ask Steve.<p>WAT

Hugzz...Elad...<p>Part of me says the natural consequences to moving out...is she has to work it out on her own...let her deal with it...(plus she says that's what she wants...so give it to her).<p>Also be gone...be very gone...you do NOT need the trauma of watching her move...<p>Part of me says NO contact...unless SHE initiates contact...then Plan A her...kinda mix A & B with you not making contact....<p>As for you...you move on...you do what is good for Elad to get even more strong...I sense except for coming here, you might not reach out? Make a strong network for yourself...people you can talk to...do things with...ABOVE ALL...TAKE CARE OF YOU...<p>Totally agree with calling for professional assessment...<p>Cali

Our situations sound quite similar although the timelines are different. My wife (WS) and I were partially separated for a couple months after D-day and then she decided to separate completely and moved out.<p>Like you I am convinced that OM is out of the picture. Yes, I know that it's typical for WS to separate to continue the A but I believe there are exceptions. My WS even said the same things about not knowing how to get those feelings back.<p>For what it's worth here's my two cents:<p>If you've already offered to help her move and she declined, I'd say leave it at that and let her hire a mover. No need to bend over backwards to help her get out.<p>Personally I'd be gone while the move happens (I was). It just seems like it would be extremely difficult and a perfect setup for an emotional scene. Be mentally prepared to return home and find a bunch of stuff gone.<p>I think a continuation of Plan A makes sense, but I'd let her initiate contact. How long since she last had contact with OM? Do you think it likely that she's experiencing withdrawal? Sounds like she does have things to sort out. You probably can't help, but you can definitely show her what a good thing she'd be giving up if she decided not to return.<p>You've been at this longer than I, so I don't know what I can offer as far as coping emotionally. What has worked best for me is to let go as much as I can. Find stuff to do - work on your house, go out with friends, take up a new sport, read trashy escapist fiction, etc. Lean on the strength you built the first time around. It also helps me tremendously to have a few people that I can talk to about it.<p>One thing my IC said to me that I think of often was that I'm clearly not ready to start dating, but anything else that I might do if I were divorced is fair game. Basically he told me to live my life instead of just waiting to see what my wife will decide.<p>NP

as a ws who may get to the place you are now with your w, I will try to project a little for you. It seems there is a bit of bs fog too, and that is seeing boogeyman behind every tree (or op anyways). Hard as it may be for a bs to believe, ws really do often have marital issues, and are not just teenagers chasing op for fun and games. Just cause a ws stops an affair does not mean they fall back into the bs arms, neither does wanting seperation and space mean the op is active and waiting in the wings. It may simply mean the ws just does not want to be married anymore to you, is that so hard to understand? They try to tell you that, and talk about their feelings and such, and usually get insulted with fog, and the notion we don't really know our own minds, and you plan a us to death, until we can't take anymore, and have to get some space. We do not want to hurt you, but we do not want to be the source of your happiness either. We just want to be who we are, and sometimes we cannot do that married to you. It does not mean we are selfish, or uncaring, or dislike you, we just do not want the intimacy of marriage with you. You say you love us, but then say you won't be our friend, you talk about your pain endlessly, and try to reprogram us into being in-love, it makes us nuts, and confused, and we don't trust you. We feel like property, a prize to be won, a horse to be broken. We tell you this and you still don't get it.<p>My advice elad if your w is anything like me. Let her be, let her go peacefully and amicably, it is your best chance she will return. In the meantime, by all means, be yourself, take care of elad, that is what we want you to do. It probably is best if you don't help her, unless she asks you too, make it clear is ok either way, no hard feelings etc. Is ok to tell her you do not really want to "help" seperate, is hard for you, but that she can depend on you as a friend if needed. The primary fear that drives us is you want to own us, to make us yours, it scares the heck out of us. You coerce us with guilt, and plan a's, woe is me, and how bad the kids will be hurt (yeah, if you won't do a good job co-parenting and joint custody with us), etc. etc.<p>No doubt this is annoying some of you, not my intention, just how it might be for her. She really needs to test her wings, and she does not feel she can choose you while in your coop (so to speak), and/or she is done, she her mind is irrevocably made up, and she is trying to do this as kindly as possible, most likely, a bit of both. Good luck, you will be ok, people always are.... if they want to be.

Hi Elad,<p>Let her do the movin'. She sounds like she wants her move to fail. Makes sense? No. But that is what some WS's do nonetheless. Mine did. Set himself up to fail and even admitted it!! Go figure. They want to find themselves, they want to know if they can make it on their own, the want to be alone, etc. You know I heard all of that and then some. But in my case the A was going full steam. Guess what, the OW and her lifestyle turned out to not be as great as the WS assumed. So guess who '[censored]-u-me-d' and paid the price? Well we all paid the price but I did not [censored]-u-me!<p>Hard as it is Elad, let her go and find out where all the inner strength and fog stuff will really take her. See with or without you, she still needs to work, eat, pay bills, take a bath, take care of her necessities. Fun? Optional. Love? Optional. Crazy? Mandatory for the A to continue. <p>Well you know that in addition to the necessities of life that having fun, love and other good things are necessary for a balanced life and healthy as well. Being crazy is not healthy but the WS tends not to see it while in the fog. So you are having very opposite ways of dealing with things and you need to let her go find out if she can find her way of the box without your help. Don't despair, I think she may need to fall before she can get up. <p>You take care of yourself. K? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
L.

As always....thank you all for your posts and responses...<p>Some of it I knew...some of it I needed to hear...you guys are the best and I guess if others can't see that in those of us here it's more the pity for them. <p>I woke up this morning feeling some sort of peace...I'm not sure why. Nothing has changed...<p>My W told me last night that she knows I don't understand this (I don't) but the move is really something she needs to do for herself. When she woke this morning she told me (as a follow up) that she really does need to do this...but that she is scared.<p>She is scared of me not waiting and her being left alone...<p>I told her (in a very calm way) that she was right to be scared because she is putting our relationship, our life together and even our lives apart in jeopardy. That should be scary. <p>Like I said I feel kind of calm today...we see our MC tonite and usually that makes for a lot of tension but, at least for now, it hasn't. W is out collecting boxes etc to pack up.<p>I will not be home when she moves.<p>I made the offer to help and she said she appreciated it but that I should not have to do that...so I won't. <p>How will I get along??? I am not sure, but I plan to focus on some things at home. Continue and maybe expand my daily workouts, (cold and snowy here, though so I may have to spend more time at the gym). Read more, work a little more and just take it a day at a time. I cannot control what she does, I know that, I can only control what I do.<p>Jo & WAT---I appreciate your opinion that the OM is still in the picture. I really do. But I continue to believe that was over in June/July. If I am wrong--then I am wrong. Our C told me in an individual session that even if he is, it doesn't matter 'cause I can't do anything about it and that she (C) believes OM is not what my W is trying to reconcile. That it is her (W's) own issues that need to be resolved. Only W can do that.<p>We will continue to see our C, who, I believe has been very good.<p>Cali--My own thoughts kind of run the way yours do. You are right about the not reaching out part...that has been my pattern. Maybe that needs to change. We'll see. It is great to have a support network like this one, though, where people like you can easily relate to what is taking place and offert the strong, continuing support that you have. Thanks. <p>no patience-- I am sorry you find yourself in a similar position. I guess I agree that once she leaves, she will need to initiate future contact. I think that might be hard for me but I will work at letting things happen that way. Again, "finding stuff to do" will be helpful.<p>snl-- Usually I have a hard time reading your posts because of your sometimes harsh view of love, marriage and WSs. But I really appreciate your thoughtful response. You have given me some BS insight and food for thought. Thanks.<p>Orchid---You make me smile because you cut right to the chase. Thanks. I plan to take care of myself as best as I can.<p>Like I said folks...I feel at peace today and I hope that continues. This truly is a day-to-day experience and I guess there's no telling how i will feel tomorrow. But I will just keep on tryin' After all that's all all of us can do, right?<p>Thanks again...<p>E